60g planted discuss - what are my options?

[Mr31415]

Hi,

I am new to discus, newish in fresh water but have been keeping reef aquariums for more than 7 years. I am therefore not new to the chemistry or mechanics of this hobby, but I am new to the particulars of freshwater planted / discus.

My current tank is a 60g Fluval (W x D x H): 85 x 48 x 65 cm (33 x 18.75 x 25.5 in). I am using RO/DI water that I remineralize with Seachem's Equilibrium for a target dKH of about 7GH. I also use Seachem's Alkaline bugger and Acid buffer to get KH up to about 5 and pH is at 6.5. I use CO2 injection 24/7 (will get a solenoid soon to change that only during the photoperiod). Temperature is 26.5C.

For fertilizer I use the PPS-Pro method and dose my fertilizer and Seachem Trace daily. I currently do 33% weekly water changes. Filtration is handled by an Eheim Professional 3 Electronic 2076 Canister Filter packed full of media. Substrate is EcoComplete - about 3" in the front and 4-6" at the back. Tank is heavily planted. See picture:

http://www.waldonell.com/image/0/reefphotos/_g0c6888.jpg

This tank has been up and running for about 3 weeks now. Last test done a couple of days ago had ammonia and nitrite at 0. I have not yet tested Nitrate.

The current stocking of the tank is:

1 x Corydora
2 x Siamensis algae eaters
4 x neon tetras (large)
6 x cardinal tetras
5 x glass catfish

I was hoping to finish my live stock list with some discus. However I have read that they need to be kept in groups of 5 or more. I am concerned about overstocking this tank. But I really like to have discus as the main focus of tank. Unfortunately I inherited some of the fish from another tank so I could not really start from a clean slate.

What are your thought about the possibility to keep discus with the current setup? And how many should I keep?

[discuspaul]

You have a beautiful tank set up, which is equipped for a successful focus on healthy plant growth display, but unfortunately not so well geared for successful discus-keeping.
Your tank is the minimum size recommended for keeping 5 or 6 adult discus (which is the minimum recommended number to keep for compatibility/pecking order aggression issue reasons), and this without any significant level of other tank-mates.
And so, you're right, you would be pushing the stocking envelope with your current set-up, not to mention that your tank is fairly heavily planted, leaving little space for discus swimming room, and the use of CO2 as a discus beginner could also pose some problems for you.
The best suggestions to beginners for keeping discus healthy and thriving is to acquire older, larger discus in the 4" or larger range (to avoid stunting in a planted environment), from a recognized fully reliable source; maintain large, frequent wcs, and good tank cleansing husbandry ; and keep things as simple as possible, at least until one has acquired some reasonable familiarity with discus traits & behaviors over a period of several months.

Using pressurized CO2 in a heavily planted environment while trying to successfully focus on discus health is a tall order indeed for novices to discus.
If you want to do yourself, as well as the discus (assuming you still want them) a huge favor you would be well advised to re-home, at least temporarily, the other fish in your tank, reduce the plantings, and refrain from using CO2, at least for a few months. Get near adult discus specimens from a known solid source, at least 5 of them, and plan on a regular religious large wc regime. That's my best advice to you if you wish to avoid problems and frustration.

[Mr31415]

Thank you for your informative response. I did not know that CO2 / fertilizer is an issue for discus. Assuming one can compensate for that, would it be possible to keep a mated pair of discus? Or is even that too risky?

[du3ce]

im running diy co2 an liquid ferts on my 75 all my discus are fine

[Cakes]

You have a beautiful tank set up, which is equipped for a successful focus on healthy plant growth display, but unfortunately not so well geared for successful discus-keeping.
Your tank is the minimum size recommended for keeping 5 or 6 adult discus (which is the minimum recommended number to keep for compatibility/pecking order aggression issue reasons), and this without any significant level of other tank-mates.
And so, you're right, you would be pushing the stocking envelope with your current set-up, not to mention that your tank is fairly heavily planted, leaving little space for discus swimming room, and the use of CO2 as a discus beginner could also pose some problems for you.
The best suggestions to beginners for keeping discus healthy and thriving is to acquire older, larger discus in the 4" or larger range (to avoid stunting in a planted environment), from a recognized fully reliable source; maintain large, frequent wcs, and good tank cleansing husbandry ; and keep things as simple as possible, at least until one has acquired some reasonable familiarity with discus traits & behaviors over a period of several months.

Using pressurized CO2 in a heavily planted environment while trying to successfully focus on discus health is a tall order indeed for novices to discus.
If you want to do yourself, as well as the discus (assuming you still want them) a huge favor you would be well advised to re-home, at least temporarily, the other fish in your tank, reduce the plantings, and refrain from using CO2, at least for a few months. Get near adult discus specimens from a known solid source, at least 5 of them, and plan on a regular religious large wc regime. That's my best advice to you if you wish to avoid problems and frustration.

The above advice is good for a novice but with your Reef experience I can't see anything from stopping you from adding 3 or 4 discus in the future. I would wait at least a month until your tank matures more. Like advised try to get some that are over 3 to 4 inches. I wouldn't be concerned with stocking levels as all the fish you mentioned are very small and produce very little waste. Those tankmates are also pretty docile but you should keep an eye on the algae eaters, they have been known to suck on a discus a time or two.

[jmf3460]

mr31415

Beautiful planted tank. What is that plant front left corner, green on top pink on bottom, looks kind of like a sword but small??

[Mr31415]

I think it was sold to me as an Echinodorus ozelot.

[Mr31415]

The above advice is good for a novice but with your Reef experience I can't see anything from stopping you from adding 3 or 4 discus in the future. I would wait at least a month until your tank matures more. Like advised try to get some that are over 3 to 4 inches. I wouldn't be concerned with stocking levels as all the fish you mentioned are very small and produce very little waste. Those tankmates are also pretty docile but you should keep an eye on the algae eaters, they have been known to suck on a discus a time or two.

Thanks for the alternative view. I will see how my tank does in the next couple of weeks, and the availability of larger discus from my LFS.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi and welcome to the forums! =)

I'm going to lean towards following the advice that Paul gave you. There's a world of difference between maintaining a reef tank and maintaining a discus tank. I wish Pastry was here today to hop on and tell you how it goes with his planted tank. He has an awesome tank and very healthy discus, but he's always quick to tell people that his discus that he grew out (even 3-4" discus are only sub-adults and have a LOT of growing to do) in his planted tank never reached full size. Here's a link to his thread: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?98299-Growing-out-in-planted-tank

I can see having a group of 5-6 discus in that tank, it's gorgeous btw, but if it was me, I'd go grab a 55g tank, paint the bottom and back white and use that to grow out a the group to at least 6" before I put them into the planted tank. I'm pretty new to discus (not to fish keeping, just discus). I followed the advice here and started with a group of five 4" discus in a lightly planted 54g tank. I was shocked to find out that those little buggers ate so much, pooped so often and grew so much during their first year of life! I ended up doing twice a day water changes, ditched the plants and eco-complete and went with just a light sand substrate and one piece of driftwood. Continued that till they were 6", then dropped to once a day water changes. And continued that till they reached 9".

It's all about figuring out how to keep the water pristine and keep them well fed. If you do that in a bare bottom 55, you'll know what you're doing before they go into the planted tank and have a better chance of growing some breathtaking discus. =)

Ohhhhh, forgot to mention that most of the time you're going to get much better discus if you purchase from a sponsor here rather than your LFS. Having said that, there are a few LFS's with an excellent reputation who purchase from the sponsors here. Usually though, they don't. They buy from very cheap sources and the discus you get are inferior or already sick...and they charge an arm and a leg for them.

[Mr31415]

Thanks for the advise Toni. So let me understand this right... Back when I had reef aquariums one was a 480g predator tank in which I kept eels, groupers, lionfish etc. These are all messy eaters - I would feed two cupped hands full of lancefish, squid, shrimp etc. per feeding. Needless to say the wastes can be quite high. Naturally my nitrates in that tank always hovered at about 20ppm. It was therefore not really possible to keep SPS in the same tank as they require nitrates and PO4 to be pretty much undetectable.

Is this the same issue with Discus and planted tanks? And the near obsessive need to perform water changes - in order to remove the huge amounts of wastes they produce as they are messy and avid eaters? I presume an oversized Eheim 2076 canister filter and the plants are not enough then to break down these wastes by themselves? I have always aimed with my reef aquariums to get the balance just right so that I can get away with monthly 20% water changes. This worked well for 7 years on the various tanks I kept, but that being said, I never overstocked, always pre-washed the food I feed and never overfed.

The substrate seems to be an issue because you cannot easily siphon off detritus - I get that. And a planted tank's substrate (especially using EcoComplete which is quite coarse) is not conducive to maintaining a healthy fauna in the substrate that can break down the detritus? Is that accurate? The CO2 seems to be a problem because it reduces the amount of available O2 in the water due to the need for reduced surface agitation to not let too much CO2 escape. But discus need more O2 than most other freshwater fish and that is a problem - correct so far? The plants are problematic because they reduce swimming space for the discus and because of their conflicting need for high light and CO2 levels? Fertilizer - I do not really get why fertilizer would be a problem for discus...

Coupled with the fact that one needs to keep a group of them as they are of a schooling kind, and considering they reach 10" when fully grown, are these the main issues in keeping discus healthy in a heavily planted tank?

So if one could keep O2 at an adequate level, ensure there are enough bottom feeders to consume / break down detritus and uneaten food that falls to the bottom, try to target feed the discus and not overfeed, ensure there are enough hiding spots for them and swimming space, keep the temperature at a compromised 27.5C (to keep both plants and discus happy), do not keep more than say 4 adult discus in that tank would that work? I do not really want to grow out juveniles - I just want some older discus to round of the appearance of the tank and add interesting behaviour. It seems like the most effort is with juveniles. Would this work?

[strawberryblonde]

Bingo! You're right on the money with everything that you've figured out so far.

The only part that you didn't take into consideration is that, unlike reef tanks, there really is no "clean up crew" that can adequately process detritus the way a crew in a reef tank does. Fert dosing is mostly problematic because it basically doses nitrates into the tank for the plants.. and discus are super sensitive to nitrates. I've found that my discus are healthiest at 5ppm or less. 10ppm for a couple of days is fine, but if it goes too long my discus start to look "off" and tend to be more skittish. At 20ppm, over time they sicken. Think of discus as being equal to SPS as far as water quality requirements. =)

You could keep a lovely big mated pair of discus in that tank. Being older they could handle fewer feedings, so long as the feedings are high quality. They'd also require fewer water changes, so that's great for a planted tank.

The only ongoing problem I can see would be making space for them to eat. Discus are natural grazers. They'll grab food from your hand at first, then let the rest settle to the bottom where they then pick and nibble. For my tanks, I always plan on 30 minutes of grazing at each feeding. My cories pick up most of the remaining food, and a daily vacuum grabs anything they miss (usually the bits that settle in the leaves of my sword plant and around the base of it).

Have you looked at some of the adult proven pairs that Discus Hans sells? You can find him in the sponsor section. You could also PM some of the other sponsors to ask about pairs.

[discuspaul]

Mr31415 - you are quite correct on a number of points you have listed insofar as keeping discus healthy, and successfully.
In a nutshell though, the best advice imo, that can be given to newcomers to discus-keeping, no matter their level of previous experience in fish-keeping, is to keep things as simple as possible for the first few months at any rate, in order to allow themselves to gain some reasonable familiarity with discus traits and behaviors, and to learn by experience as to how to care for them successfully.
As a novice to discus with no experience in caring for them, keeping them in a heavily planted environment using pressurized CO2 (risking potentiality large swings in pH on a daily basis), as well as the inherent difficulty in maintaining squeaky clean tank and water conditions, is like starting off with a couple of strikes against you - that's a reality which you could quickly experience, much to your chagrin.
But if you strongly feel that you can overcome these odds, then we all wish you the best of luck - no offense intended.
But nonetheless be prepared to religiously maintain large, frequent changes of fresh water, and pay diligent attention to your tank cleansing regime.

[Mr31415]

Seems like this is the first forum (freshwater) where I got knowledgable advise. For that I am grateful!

After all of this I think what I am going to try and do is get a mated pair provided I can keep nitrates below 5ppm for the next month (it is 0 right now). I am just not comfortable - regardless of advise here - to put a school of discus in a 60g tank with other fish in it already. Especially considering the final adult size of discus. I would not do that with any kind of fish. But a mated pair would not overload the system in terms of bioload, however I need to pay attention to all the aspects already mentioned.

If I had the space here I'd most definitely add a second 150g tank dedicated for easier plant growth - no CO2 / fertilizer, easier plants, lower light, warmer water and friendlier to discus, with a school of 7-8 discus. But that cannot happen (yet). So I'll keep on researching here and elsewhere, and if I find a guaranteed mated pair somewhere locally (or if not, from the sources Toni provided) and after a month of low nitrates, I'll give it a go.

I did manage to get a ribbon eel once to eat.... Took me 3 months of daily pampering until it started to take food, and if I can do that I should at the very least have the dedication to give it my best try.

[dirtyplants]

Hi I agree and disagree. If you have kept living coral in your salt water tank you will be used to keeping pristine conditions, and also used to dealing with a great amount of work keeping algae, and excess nutrients out. You are probably very used to mixing salt and water changes. Used to light and current needs and probably have feed your corals with a dropper of some sort. You are most likely used to high tech reactors and protein skimmers, and simulating high tides and moon cycles. If you had no problems with that, well then, keeping discus might seem to be a vacation. You must understand the water quality needed, and learn about behavior and the pecking order. Your tank mates seem fine. You should already have developed the maintenance skills needed to keep your tank lush and with discus. Although it is much easier to monitor eating and aggression in a grow out tank. I have a little runt I bought at the LFS and he is clever and aggressive and will fight with any of the other males gladly so size doesn't make the fish. Territory behavior is so much different in a planted tank. It isn't just peck and chase. Especially if they pair up and have marked off breeding territory.
Most of the plants in your tank will grow well in lower light and are relativity fast growing without co2. Don't play with co2 get a bubble counter, regulator, solenoid and timer, needle valve and co2 reactor.
The red ones Wendi's from what I can see, are slower to grow and would benefit from co2. They also have a different nutrient requirements. The grassy looking ones I can not tell from picture what they are if hair grass they require much more light and might fall apart at higher temp. I would try micro swords or some other plants which can handle high temperatures. Look up your plants decide what is needed to keep them healthy, and balance that with what your discus can handle. The important thing is to understand your plants how they take in nutrients and compromise a bit. You plants can also be territorial.
I use a grow out until about 4 1/2 inches, they seem to continue to grow fine in my planted tank. It has been stated by Jack Wattley, that large adult discus emit a toxin though their slim coat, that inhibits the growth of smaller discus. Buy you discus from a good breeder, not a LFS unless they specialize and breed themselves, and are honest. Make sure they eat and eat well before purchasing.

[Mr31415]

Yeah, what you said I pretty much did. The full monty. And the CO2 dosing in my current tank - I am using an ADA regulator on a 5lbs pressurised cylinder, with Do!aqua bubble counter and diffuser. The solenoid is on order as the previous one broke. The new solenoid will be on my reefkeeper light controller, going off when the lights turn off and coming on an hour before the lights turn on.

The grass is Hair grass indeed, hence the 8 x 39W T5HO's.

Thanks for the tips on choosing discus - I have a shop in mind but will first ensure they are reputable enough as far as it concerns discus. I did not know it was such a big deal to not just buy from an LFS where the discus seemed healthy looking. Now I do.

[strawberryblonde]

Sounds like you have a plan in place. =)

I took a second look at your tank layout and do you think you'd mind parting with the plants at the front? You could remove the substrate in that area, then add some golden colored sand that would blend nicely with the color of the rest of the substrate. It would provide a nice little area for feeding the discus and your cories would love it too...sand is nice and soft on their barbels. Just don't be surprised if the cories decide to practically live in that spot. LOL

Here's a link to the sand that I used when I wanted a golden color: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+9805+21412&pcatid=21412 I used the Sunset Gold. You'd only need one bag to fill in that area. Easy to clean and easy for the discus to find the food.

Here's a pic of my first grow out tank after I ditched all the plants and substrate in the front of the tank and added that golden sand. Notice the cory sitting there? He was SO happy the day I put the sand in!
80464

That grow out tank didn't last long, but I kinda miss it...it was just a pita to clean up after 5 hungry growing discus in there. <sigh>

The only other thing I'd do is get rid of the siamese algae eaters. They don't eat a whole lot of algae when they reach adulthood and they are fast fish and also can be aggressive when eating.

[Mr31415]

My original intention was to create a lawn kind of effect in the front, but the tank is very deep so getting enough light down there is hard - I swore I'll not go metal halides again as they are too noisy, and LED lights (the Kessels) did not work either - two A150W Kessels produced the same amount of light as 4 x 24W T5HO. And they were extremely noisy. So parting with that... I can certainly consider it.

As to your comments regarding the corydora - I used to have him in a tank with fluorite black sand and he and the kuhli loaches loved it. So going with softer, finer substrate makes sense.

It would be very sad to get rid of the siamensis algae eaters... They eat a LOT of algae from the leaves and glass and do not damage the plants. Maybe I'll try the trick I used when feeding my reef fish - feed at opposite ends of the tank concurrently, that way you can distract the faster eaters.

[dirtyplants]

Oh if true siamese they will eat algae well all the time, if they are the look alike that is often sold by LFS as siamese algae eaters they may go for slim coat as they get older. Do not get chinese algae eaters they are very aggressive.

[strawberryblonde]

You had good luck with your SAE's then dirty, mine ate algae like crazy for about a year, then got a taste for discus food and never ate algae again. They were spoiled little brats. LOL

[Mr31415]

Not too sure. All I know is that they are really good at eating algae, constantly working away at everything where algae might grow. How do I tell them apart?

[Mr31415]

Well mine has snacked on mysis, brine shrimp, blood worms, algae wafers and those other pink sinking pellets. I guess beef heart (is that what you feed yours?) might change their minds...

[discuspaul]

More on SAE's - whether true SAE's, or not (like Flying Foxes), --- any of them, when they get older, larger and lazier, will forego algae foraging, and not only begin eating anything else that you feed discus, some may occasionally also take a liking to discus' slime coats as part of their diet. I know, I've had that happen on 2 separate occasions over the years, in both cases with true SAE's.
Same goes for Otocinclus Cats - I wouldn't keep either of those species with discus (and for sure not Chinese Algae Eaters), nor would I recommend many of the Plecos being kept with discus (with the exception of Bristle-Noses) for the very same reason.

[Mr31415]

Thanks for that information. I'll make sure to keep a hawk's eye on them.

[dirtyplants]

LOL the algae eaters are the topic of great amusement to me. I had a true SAE for many years never bother anyone and did a wonderful job. These should be in quantities in a tank so I am told. Its cousin who looks that like the SAE or the flying foxes will grow out of algae. The difference between the two is subtle and if crossed in breeding can be a pain. I have had ABNP in my tank for 15 years and they were breeding, I let the discus and other larger fish eat them. The ABNP were fine until about a month ago and started going after my discus. I had to pull them off and they again went for more discus slim. So took them out placed into my med tank, the heater failed and fried them. All of this within the last month. So I can no longer swear to them as a safe bet!:argue::bomb:

[Cakes]

LOL the algae eaters are the topic of great amusement to me. I had a true SAE for many years never bother anyone and did a wonderful job. These should be in quantities in a tank so I am told. Its cousin who looks that like the SAE or the flying foxes will grow out of algae. The difference between the two is subtle and if crossed in breeding can be a pain. I have had ABNP in my tank for 15 years and they were breeding, I let the discus and other larger fish eat them. The ABNP were fine until about a month ago and started going after my discus. I had to pull them off and they again went for more discus slim. So took them out placed into my med tank, the heater failed and fried them. All of this within the last month. So I can no longer swear to them as a safe bet!:argue::bomb:

I agree with the above, it just seems like once they get the taste they can't quit.

[Cakes]

strawberry that golden colored sand looks nice. How does it look compared to pool filter sand? I have never really liked the pool filter sand or play sand color. They are okay but IMHO they don't pop enough for a show tank.

[discuspaul]

What color sand appeals to you, Cakes ?
I use white quartz-based silica pool filter sand in my tanks, and find that it makes fish & plant colors really stand out, in addition to being very easy to keep clean, and grow plants nicely as well. Have a look:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Anubias

[strawberryblonde]

strawberry that golden colored sand looks nice. How does it look compared to pool filter sand? I have never really liked the pool filter sand or play sand color. They are okay but IMHO they don't pop enough for a show tank.

Oh darn, I missed this question...sorry! =)

It's a nice golden color, as opposed to the bright white of pool filter sand. The golden color looks lighter or darker depending on what type of lighting you use. In the pic above I had the standard flourescent bulbs and it looked quite dark. When I switched to LED's it looks a bit lighter, but also was a lot prettier.

It's a super soft sand, so cories love it and it's very easy to clean leftovers off it with just a light touch of the siphon.

[musicmarn1]

Great thread, really nice to see people use the forum to full advantage before they get their discus! Where do we get that golden sand I love it and Strawberry, that planted tank was lovely, I stil dream of my discus one day in a planted, but now I'm so hooked on their needs I can easily live with minimal decor for their sake. I will say that after doing bare bottom and having a mated pair in my planted tank, I see better growth having put them back in the community bare bottom. Just can't feed enough and clean well enough in a planted, the breakdown of the detritus by plants and cuc is just too long and too much nitrate. But you know far more than me anyway since I am so new to everything. All I know is what Toni said about Nitrate sensitivity is freaking spot on. I just got back from a trip to New York and took one look at my tanks, the juvies were off a touch and I knew without testing, nitrates were too high, I'm doing tap water changes on some of the water because they needed more changes to flush them out and I can only age 100 gallons a day now it's so cold here. Rather change ph a little than high nitrates which they hate, then ill go back toone aged change a day 120% as per Toni guidelines.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Marnie,

The cheapest place I've found online to buy the sand is from Drs. Foster and Smith. I put the link into my post up there, so you can click it to go take a look. I loved the look of my planted tank with that pretty golden sand and the big piece of driftwood, but I agree, it was a horrible pain in the butt to try to keep it clean enough for my growing discus! I ended removing the plants and just using the sand...no gravel. Even then the driftwood tended to get food caught in it so I was constantly pulling it out to hose it off.

These days I just stick with BB till they're big enough to go to my main tank..which only has one huge sword plant and some nice sand. (cuz even as adults they can still make a huge mess...lol)

[pastry]

Mr 31415, I guess I'm late to the party but keep us posted how things turn out. After looking on here, you've definitely got some great overall fish keeping/water/plant experience and you've definitely got some good people on here already supporting you & offering advice... well, besides Toni, she can be a real pain in the arse :p (kidding, kidding Toni!!!...) I also think you'll catch on to discus quick and make leaps and bounds if you stick around with them (I also think you'll get addicted and will start figuring out who's going to help you carry in a bigger aquarium before you know it ;)).

[dirtyplants]

I am now using a new substrate which took me a while to find. I was clued to it from one old forum discussion. It has been referred to as MVP. It is a clay based substrate very light easy to clean does not scratch glass, plants like it, and does not clog filters, nor does it cut the mouths of your cory fish. It was sold by one company but that company no longer carries it in this state as far as I have been told. It is sold by Reinders here, under a new name called Turface Allsport. They make several types and the type to get is called MVP. It is nothing but baked clay used for sports fields for turf (grassy fields). It must be rinsed well as it has dust which can make the water cloudy. Takes days to clear and settled if not rinsed. My discus seem to do well with it. It has a golden tan look to it but gets darker looking in the tank. It last longer then Eco. I am slowly replacing old substrate in my large tank. My Amazons have gone nuts and I am composting them now, they get so large and thick no room for the discus to swim. I would recommend those who want substrate to experiment with it. Here it is sold for 11.00 for 50lbs. Check it out!