White Butterfly and Red Melon Grow out thread

[joshvito]

Started the morning out with sad news...

One of the 5 Forrest Discus fish from April, was found dead this AM with no apparent signs of stress or disease last night. :( ***?
These fish have been super healthy and eating every day since I received them in April, 6 months of daily 95%+ water changes, a daily drip change system, and 3x feeding of made in usa foods(frozen and flake and pellet).

One of the White butterfly from this shipment died overnight. I found the dead one on its side at the bottom of the tank, no gill movement no reaction to the net. The other 4 fish in the tank looked healthy and normal today. I turned off my drip change system, until I can change the filters this evening. Not sure if I could even pinpoint a source, since there were no signs of stress. I've never even seen any fish in this tank go dark.

Frustrating. :confused:

In memmory, I'll post a photo timeline of my growout experience the last 6 months.

Here is a photo of the fish just after receiving them ~April 11, 2013.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/12/9u5a3u8a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/12/esehu4y4.jpg


May 12, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/13/ynepyhum.jpg


I'll post some more photos in a minute, have to change devices.

[Chicago Discus]

Its not just doing 95% changes IMO you should be cleaning the sides and the bottom of the tank. Also the sponge filter looks pretty bad if you let it cake up like that IMO it has a reverse affect on the bio because it has nowhere to grow or get the beneficial oxygen that it needs to work properly so the bacteria will become anaerobic and stop working....Josie

[joshvito]

June 2, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/7y5eheza.jpg

[joshvito]

July 20, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/guqaza8y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/2aha6ysy.jpg

[joshvito]

August 20, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/ragu9e4e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/by5u6ymu.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/qube5agu.jpg

[joshvito]

Its not just doing 95% changes IMO you should be cleaning the sides and the bottom of the tank. Also the sponge filter looks pretty bad if you let it cake up like that IMO it has a reverse affect on the bio because it has nowhere to grow or get the beneficial oxygen that it needs to work properly so the bacteria will become anaerobic and stop working....Josie

Tank gets wiped down every other day. Filter get cleaned/squeezed weekly.
I'll post ammonia and nitrite/nitrate test results tonight.

Thank you for your reply.

[BODYDUB]

They look pretty darn good already............

[PP_GBR]

J

Not only you need to vacuum the tank but you also need to take your sponge filter apart to clean inside the base and the lift tube. Inspect your tank to see if there is fuzzy white stuffs like mold in the tank.

[Kal-El]

I think it's time to move them out of that small tank so they can really grow in a bigger tank.

[joshvito]

PH : 8.0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/6y9a2yve.jpg

Ammonia: 0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/ehugu3yq.jpg

Nitrite and Nitrate test strip read 0

Nitrate
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/jepy7e3u.jpg

[blueluv]

Ok? Are my eyes playing tricks in me or are you using a salt water test kit?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[Ryan]

Ok? Are my eyes playing tricks in me or are you using a salt water test kit?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

If it's the Hagen wide-range pH test kit, they are designed for fresh or salt water.

[joshvito]

October 8, 2013
RIP 1 x white butterfly
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/uvy8etu6.jpg

I thoroughly cleaned the sponges today too.

[joshvito]

It's Hagen brand. Salt and fresh. :)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Chicago Discus]

Aww Im sorry about your little guy Josh :(....Josie

[WaterDog]

I'd never run my tank with that much algae everywhere. Your tests look good but so what fish died. Basic water test don't tell you everything and never will. Things go on that you cannot see or test for. **** happens, get over it and get a much much bigger tank for them. The grow out is over, time for a 180 or more for them. Trying to control all parameters on a closed loop small tank is a never ending battle. Those small breeder tanks you see are on a continuously circulating huge water volume system.

[BODYDUB]

They look pretty darn good already............

Sorry about this post, I must have had too many tabs open. Sorry for our loss..............

[John_Nicholson]

I'd never run my tank with that much algae everywhere. Your tests look good but so what fish died. Basic water test don't tell you everything and never will. Things go on that you cannot see or test for. **** happens, get over it and get a much much bigger tank for them. The grow out is over, time for a 180 or more for them. Trying to control all parameters on a closed loop small tank is a never ending battle. Those small breeder tanks you see are on a continuously circulating huge water volume system.

Disagree with this. Algae does not normally hurt fish. I have also raised spawns out in 20 and 29 gallon tanks. Not huge water system, just daily water changes. I do not think his water had anything to do with it or all of the fish would have been affected.

-john

[joshvito]

I combined all my juvies into one 55gallon tank.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/yvuzevad.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/y4a3age3.jpg

[joshvito]

Tested parameters after WC 6hrs ago.

pH - 8.0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/a2ygahes.jpg

Ammonia - 0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/epa5u5u7.jpg

Nitrate - 0-5ppm
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/usavy4yt.jpg

[Meganne]

might be my eyes or monitor but your pH looks 7.5 to me and your Nitrates somewhere between 0 and 5.0,......not bad but not 0

your juvies are beautiful

[du3ce]

the red melon is starting to take off, i have one growing out as well

[mmdiscus1]

What is your tank size here? I am also planning to grow out 6 juvies in bb, what tank size minimum is ok?

June 2, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/7y5eheza.jpg

[chinoy168]

What size tank growing out yur six juvenile s

[joshvito]

@mmdiscus1 i started the grow out in a 20G high with daily 95%+ manual change and a constant drip change.

[joshvito]

The fish don't seem to like their new surroundings; I haven't changed anything since I moved them. WC schedule is the same, feed and timing is the same.
Lost one blue turq fish today, jumped up onto the glass top and dried out. :(

I'm posting a video of some erratic swimming going on, not sure of the cause.

http://youtu.be/zU_Pv1TJRV0

[BODYDUB]

Resubscribed to see if anyone can explain the erratic swimming..............

[rdiscus]

Why you put them all together? they don't look good together

[joshvito]

@rdiscus to make daily water changes easier and to give them a bit more room until I'm ready to place them in the display tank.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Allwin]

Probably the fish is looking for some hiding place, since it is not comfortable in its new environment.

1. Turn-off the lights.
2. Put some drift-wood or some hiding place.
3. Its debatable, but i would prefer lighter background than darker bg, its ok though.

more sooner better the life of the fish,good luck..

[joshvito]

Lost one more of the Blue Turq's last night.
Total fish count is now 9

I'm heading to the LFS to get my water (tank and source) double checked.

[100fuegos]

Had that before in my grow out tank. The two fishes that did that ended up jumping out and dried. That was when they were ~ 4". Nowdays I am almost sure what caused it on my fish, mussels. Back then I was feeding mussels everyday. In another forum a hobbyist breeder noticed it and warned it, everytime he fed mussels that erratic behavior was noticed in some fishes.

Never gave him much credit until recently, I started feeding mussels again and one, now adult, started doing the same. I have read online, following a link from this very forum, an article about a toxin in mussels, can't located now.

So at least on my case I am pretty sure what caused it. My adult fish recovered fully after a week with nothing but dayly WC.

HIH

[Ryan]

Josh, what do you do to your water prior to using it? Is it aged? What are you using as dechlor? Do you have any tanks besides this one, and if so, how are your other fish acting?

The darting in that video doesn't look like the darting of scared fish to me. It looks like the darting of fish who're being irritated by something in the water.

Are you sure there's no stray current from a faulty filter/heater? That will cause discus to be jumpy and nervous.

[joshvito]

Had that before in my grow out tank. The two fishes that did that ended up jumping out and dried. That was when they were ~ 4". Nowdays I am almost sure what caused it on my fish, mussels. Back then I was feeding mussels everyday. In another forum a hobbyist breeder noticed it and warned it, everytime he fed mussels that erratic behavior was noticed in some fishes.

Never gave him much credit until recently, I started feeding mussels again and one, now adult, started doing the same. I have read online, following a link from this very forum, an article about a toxin in mussels, can't located now.

So at least on my case I am pretty sure what caused it. My adult fish recovered fully after a week with nothing but dayly WC.

HIH

I don't think I am feeding any mussels.
Not sure about the ingredients in http://www.hikariusa.com/diets/bio-pure-frozen-discus/ ...

[joshvito]

Josh, what do you do to your water prior to using it? Is it aged? What are you using as dechlor? Do you have any tanks besides this one, and if so, how are your other fish acting?

The darting in that video doesn't look like the darting of scared fish to me. It looks like the darting of fish who're being irritated by something in the water.

Are you sure there's no stray current from a faulty filter/heater? That will cause discus to be jumpy and nervous.

I fill from the tap(have been for years w/o issue), and declor with Seachem Safe (enough for tank volume).
The pH from the tap matches the tank, and I'm pretty good at getting the temp within a degree or two.

I haven't checked the heater, but I don't get a shock when I put my hand in tank. Can I check this with my volt meter? Is there some expected stray voltage or should it be none?

[joshvito]

I just confirmed the following water parameters via my LFS

Tank Water
ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5


Tap Water
ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5

I also picked up some Metro (http://www.hikariusa.com/solutions/healthaid/metroplus/)+ in the case I decide to medicate. Unfortunately no Tetra Parasite Guard at that store.

[Ryan]

Sometimes the parameters we test for in aquariums don't really tell you the whole story. There could be some other chemical in there that doesn't show up on an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test. Can you call your water company and see if anything changed? Is there a possibility that a chemical/pesticide got into the tank? Just throwing out ideas.

[joshvito]

Sometimes the parameters we test for in aquariums don't really tell you the whole story. There could be some other chemical in there that doesn't show up on an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test. Can you call your water company and see if anything changed? Is there a possibility that a chemical/pesticide got into the tank? Just throwing out ideas.

The other 10 tanks in my fish room are unaffected. I have tanks of shrimp and other juvenile fish. I'm thinking it is not a source water issue. Definitely no chemicals have been introduced to the tank. I'm the only caretaker, and my wife doesn't go into my "man" basement unless you want to borrow a tool.

[nc0gnet0]

Posting information to two threads is making this hard to keep track of. Your much better off merging threads if the mods can help.

[joshvito]

Posting information to two threads is making this hard to keep track of. Your much better off merging threads if the mods can help.
I agree. I thought if I posted in the disease forum, I'd get more advice.

Wish there was a way to cross reference one thread into to sub forums.


If the admin's can move the other thread (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?110154-Erratic-swimming-and-loss-of-appetite) here, and keep it listed there too, that would be awesome. Or just combine them. Either way works.

[Second Hand Pat]

Josh, I will merge the threads together but leave the merged thread in the disease section. I also will save a copy of the grow out thread so you can resume it after the fish are better.

[OC Discus]

The irratic one is the smallest. Could be shock, fear, stress of being added with new large tankmates. Maybe move the sick one to a quarantine tank

[du3ce]

The fish don't seem to like their new surroundings; I haven't changed anything since I moved them. WC schedule is the same, feed and timing is the same.
Lost one blue turq fish today, jumped up onto the glass top and dried out. :(

I'm posting a video of some erratic swimming going on, not sure of the cause.

http://youtu.be/zU_Pv1TJRV0i had a juvenile discus do that but it was worse looked like he was being swished down the toilet had to cull him, all his tankmates are fine still dont know what caused it.

[joshvito]

I moved these fish back to their 20g.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/yqe3y2u5.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/yzyvu5yr.jpg

[OC Discus]

They look happy together. The nine or 10 were too large for the 55 g.


I moved these fish back to their 20g.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/yqe3y2u5.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/yzyvu5yr.jpg

[joshvito]

Video update, fish seem better now that I put them back in a 20 gallon tank

http://youtu.be/ClxxuWPd3qc

[joshvito]

Last Saturday, I witnessed the Red Melon in this tank making spawning runs on the filter tube. It appeared that "she" was laying eggs.
The other 3 fish in the tank were hovering and eating the eggs while she was not paying attention.

I'm wondering now that I am writing this if one of the others laid the eggs, and I witnessed the "male" red melon following. In the end, there is no noticeable pair among the 4 fish.
I haven't changed my routine, and the fish seem to be healthy.

[OC Discus]

Hey Josh. Are you trying to cross the red melon and white butterfly? What kind of fry do you expect to get? Maybe its only a matter of time before a pair forms.


Last Saturday, I witnessed the Red Melon in this tank making spawning runs on the filter tube. It appeared that "she" was laying eggs.
The other 3 fish in the tank were hovering and eating the eggs while she was not paying attention.

I'm wondering now that I am writing this if one of the others laid the eggs, and I witnessed the "male" red melon following. In the end, there is no noticeable pair among the 4 fish.
I haven't changed my routine, and the fish seem to be healthy.

[joshvito]

Hey Josh. Are you trying to cross the red melon and white butterfly? What kind of fry do you expect to get? Maybe its only a matter of time before a pair forms.

I'm jjust growing them out at the moment. I was hoping 2 of the white butterfly s would pair up. I'm not sure what the cross would yield. I'm sure some one on the forum has tried it.

[joshvito]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JKB6F_b18o

[Discusdude7]

Josh how big are these fish ? Any reason they are in a 20 and not something bigger?

[joshvito]

Josh how big are these fish ? Any reason they are in a 20 and not something bigger?

I have them in a 20 to make 90% WC easier. Also, they seem to look happier and less aggressive in the smaller tank. Once they are "grown out" ill move them to a display setup.

They are somewhere between 4"-6" I would guess...

[mattyb]

i had a juvenile discus do that but it was worse looked like he was being swished down the toilet had to cull him, all his tankmates are fine still dont know what caused it.

I had a very similar thing, but is was my 6 inch red melon when I first got him, going in circles, swimming on a side, I had no idea what caused it as all my other discus where fine. I want to Keen on culling 6 inch discus lol so I got him in quarentine, he hasn't done it once in there so I dunno very Wierd

[Nick Klimkowski]

hope they continue to do well for you.

[joshvito]

Still have 4 of the 5, and they are growing well. I noticed some egg laying and eating one night a few weks back. No discernible pair though.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/27/qe9yja9e.jpg

[joshvito]

Still growing. I hope the flanks in this red melon fill in. He/she looks a bit splotchy.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/25/3edu2upe.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/25/y8usa7e8.jpg

[OC Discus]

Hey Josh. Maybe it will color up for you. If not, it looks good like it is. That color is less common than the reverse of primarily orange.

It is amazing the transformation that some pigeon based fish go through from juvi to adulthood. Some of the contest fish were a solid orange/red as juvies and developed heavy patterns as adults. My blue pigeon had only a spot of pattern at 3" but now has the outline of pattern covering the whole body. Soon they pattern will be pronounced.