Help! something strange going on with my tank :-(

[tvaneekhoven]

Ok so here is the deal with my tank its a 72 gallon tank with discus and rams and a few tetras....my discus have been acting odd the last month or so I never thought anything of it until now....my discus have started hanging out more in corners they will randomly dart across the tank and run into the glass out of nowhere and for no good reason at all....half the time they will be swimming normal and boom dart to the other side smack the glass. The last few days ive noticed them rubbing up against the plant leaves they have never done that before.....they all eat very well all look normal but Im wondering of there might be some kind of sickness or parasite in the tank? What can cause them to start hiding then spazzing out and rubbing? We've had no fish loss the water parameters are normal everything is the 0 across the board PH is 6.8 help me please! Also when I say 0 across the board I mean ammonia 0 nitrites 0 Nitrates 0 the temp is at 83. My tank has been running for 9 months now and Im not sure why the Nitrates are reading 0 Ive heard there should be at least a small amount showing up? In the tank there are 7 discus 2 German blue rams 2 gold face electric blue rams and 2 bolivian rams.

[Gorf]

Check your testing again. As you know, Nitrates should not be zero.

The response of the Discus sounds like water quality issues.

How are you treating the water? What are the full water test results? Does it get worse after a water change?

[Elliots]

Check how old your test kit is to give 0 nitrates. How often and how much water do you change? I think that could be the problem.

[John_Nicholson]

Sounds like nothing more than bad water. Start changing water and the problem will probably go away.

-john

[tvaneekhoven]

So last night I tried to test again after some advice to shake the bottle really hard and got 0 ammonia 0 nitrites 6.8 ph and between 5-10 ppm Nitrates.....it doesn't seem to get any worse after a water change we do water changes 2 times a week and they are fairly large ones....our rams are spawning all the time in the conditions of the tank I wouldn't think it was that bad? What would be an ideal water change schedule? We don't want to breed them or anything just keep them happy and healthy.

[Nu2Discus]

Apparently the nitrate test bootles need to be shaken a LOT, especially the second one. They say the liquid can almost solidify in the bottle. Make sure to shake them about 3 minutes or more if you can. Otherwise, your supposed to get false low readings.

[Tormentor]

I agree with everyone, but nitrates is better to have none, I can tell at from my own experience, at the long run they do more harm than good, so it is advisable to keep them as low as you can. You should also check if any of the rams may be bullying or causing so,e sort of stress on them. I did have rams with mines too at one point and as rams grow older at least in my experience they become territorial and protect they territory against other fish. I would also, raise the temp little by little and get it close to the 90s. Keep it like that and see what happens, before trying something else.

[Rick S]

I have had these symptoms in the past and for me it was gill flukes. I think your water is OK. Just my humble opinion.

Good Luck, Rick

[tvaneekhoven]

I have had these symptoms in the past and for me it was gill flukes. I think your water is OK. Just my humble opinion.

Good Luck, Rick

Rick what did you do to fix the gill flukes? Also the rams don't mess with the discus wrong watch them closely and they mess with each other if anything never the discus

[tvaneekhoven]

We watch them closely i mean*

[Tormentor]

I sEen all over this forum that people use prazi for gill flukes, I myself just order some for mines, as I saw them scratching often against plants but I can't tell you more as I haven't use it yet.

[Swancici]

Paragaurd is what iam using your suppose to dose the tank every 24hrs for 21-30 days

[tvaneekhoven]

We just did a 50% water change thinking about dosing the tank with api general cure does that stuff work well? Any thoughts on this idea? Good or bad idea?

[Gorf]

No don't medicate yet.

Please post some water test results as requested.

[tvaneekhoven]

Just tested water ammonia is 0 nitrites 0 Nitrates 5.0 ph 6.8 I wanted to post a pic but sense Im a new member I cant yet :-(

[Rick S]

Rick what did you do to fix the gill flukes? Also the rams don't mess with the discus wrong watch them closely and they mess with each other if anything never the discus

There are many products to address gill flukes and I think I've tried almost all of them. What worked best for me was a product called Anti-Fluke Life Bearer. I also did 50% water changes daily and raised the temperature to 90 degrees for the treatment period of about one week.

Good Luck, Rick

[tvaneekhoven]

Thanks for the advice...hopefully they will be better soon!

[tvaneekhoven]

Well yesterday I noticed our blue diamond started turning darker this morning hes keeping to himself and not wanting to eat :-(

[Allwin]

Doing large WC is definitely helpful, pictures of ur tank and filter is helpful for better advices..

[Gorf]

What is your water change procedure & how do you treat your water?

With the little info you've given so far, there's not enough to suggest flukes. It appears more likely a water quality issue.

[tvaneekhoven]

We do a wc 50% or larger 2 times a week if we test and it looks weird or not right in anyway we do another one during the week....the last week or so sense we've noticed them acting odd we've been doing one every day with a larger one every other day we pull out the water by buckets then when needed clean/ check the filters (we run a Fluval 406 and a cascade 500 our tank is a 72 gallon bow front) we then re fill the buckets treat with prime and then re fill the tank...we treat our buckets with the prime not the whole tank...how can I post pics on here? Is the only way to do it through photobucket? We did a larger wc yesterday going to do another large one tomorrow.

[Gorf]

Thanks for your reply.

Do you clean the filter mechanical media during your water change? If not, how often do you clean it & how?

Do you age your water? How do you match the water temperature when water changing?

In what way does the tank look weird before you do a water change?

[tvaneekhoven]

Every 2nd time we change water we pull the sponges out and clean them by rinsing them off try to get all the gunk off the 4th time we change it out with new ones we take turns changing all the media out never all at once and the bio rings we never change all ever we will pull a few out here and there but not very often because of all the good bacteria on them....we match water temp by using a thermometer make sure the water in the bucket is the same as the tank water we do not age our water as we don't have a way too but we dose it with prime. I guess by saying weird wasnt the correct wording if the fish show any signs of extra stress at all or act funny at all we automatically do an extra water change. I honestly don't think its a water quality issue as we've had many spawns in our tank....our gold faced electric blue rams are spawning right now!!! :-) :-) :-)

[tvaneekhoven]

How can I post pics to this thread? I just cant seem to figure it out I read on another thread that you have to use photobucket is that correct?

[Gorf]

You have to host to the photos somewhere. Photobucket is one of the many photo hosting sites.

[tvaneekhoven]

So my blue diamond is still acting odd hes eating sometimes and comes out swims with others sometimes but I just noticed his poop is white....not sure what this is going on with him or what we need to treat him with to make him better...Im going to try to post a pic of him and any advice would be greatly appreciated! (ps sorry the pic isn't the best my camera is crappy)

[tvaneekhoven]

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b615/tvaneekhoven/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-10-23215817_zps8919874e.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/tvaneekhoven/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-10-23215817_zps8919874e.jpg.html)

[tvaneekhoven]

As requested ill post a pic of the tank as well again sorry the pictures not the best but its the best i could do....any ideas on Whats going on would be awesome! Thanks!!!

[tvaneekhoven]

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b615/tvaneekhoven/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-10-23114237_zps5e48729a.jpg (http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/tvaneekhoven/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2013-10-23114237_zps5e48729a.jpg.html)

[Gorf]

If that is poop I can see on the photo then I'm considering either Hexamita or internal bacteria. Do any of the other fish display that poop? Are you currently medicating?

[tvaneekhoven]

We have a juvie pigeon blood hiding and has the same poop :-( mediating with api general cure now hope it helps them!

[tvaneekhoven]

Unless anyone knows of a better med to use???

[OC Discus]

You only need ten posts to upload pictures. Sign out and back in and try again.


Just tested water ammonia is 0 nitrites 0 Nitrates 5.0 ph 6.8 I wanted to post a pic but sense Im a new member I cant yet :-(

[tvaneekhoven]

You only need ten posts to upload pictures. Sign out and back in and try again.
I already figured that out pics are on the 2nd page but thank you!

[troysdiiscus]

Hey tvaneekhoven, what I noticed is a couple of things,
You say that you clean all the sponges and replace on the fourth cleaning? Do you rinse it in tank water or tap?
With the feedings you should be doing that gravel traps alot of nasty in it...I think you would be shocked if you pulled out your gravel and went BB or light coating of sand, of how much is in there...no matter how well you think you are syphoning the gravel...

[krislewis3]

One thing that SD, taught me early in my quest for discus information is, don't rush medication!! Step one is WC, WC, WC,WC,.......often, that is all you need. Medicate only if you have a diagnosis!!!

[tvaneekhoven]

We rinse it in tank water and we clean the gravel thoroughly every time we do a water change we've picked up on water changes one every other day and have done large ones 50% or so sense they have been sick still no change its frustrating because I know there sick and I don't know what with and the blue diamond and pigeon blood are poping white and are not eating very well but Im not sure Whats wrong with them either! So far all ive established is that we need to do water changes which were already doing....does anyone know what could be wrong with them?

[tvaneekhoven]

Does anyone know about chilodonella? Could this be a possibility? Or some other parasite?

[strawberryblonde]

Hi there,

I've carefully read your whole thread to try to figure out what's going on with your discus. I don't think chilo is the problem. It looks like either a case of Hexamita (the white poop and not eating) or possibly an internal bacterial infection.

If it was me, I'd start treating for Hexamita first to rule that out. To do that effectively in your tank there are a couple of changes you can make. They will make it much easier during treatment and also make a world of difference during water changes. =)

So here's how to start:

1) Head to the store and purchase either a bag of pool filter sand or some CaribbSea Freshwater Sand substrate. You'll need about 20 pounds to cover the bottom of the tank with a thin layer, which is best when you're growing out small discus.

2) But pre-filters for your filters. You might be able to find them at your LFS, or you can order them online. They will stop all the food and poop from being sucked into your filters and they can be rinsed under tap water at every water change. Much easier than cleaning filters all the time!

3) Purchase pure Metronidazole. If you have a local source for it, that's fine. If not, you can check out Kensfish.com. They have pure metro at very reasonable prices and shipping is fairly fast.

Ok, now that you have the necessary stuff, here's how to get the tank running and medicated:

1) Remove all the gravel using either your siphon or a fish net to scoop it out. Once it's out, do a water change to siphon out all the crud that got stirred up. Plan to do about an 80% water change so that the water level is quite low.

2) Next, carefully place the sand into the tank. I like to use a small kids sand bucket, but a large plastic glass will work too. Just fill it, then lower it to the bottom of the tank and gently dump it out. That way you don't get a lot of silt in the water column.

3) Once the sand is in the tank, place the pre-filters onto your filter intakes, then refill the tank.

4) Let the tank settle for about an hour, then turn out the lights and add the Metro according to the directions. You'll want to use 300mg. per 10 gallons of water. The directions on the ARG Metro from Kensfish is easy to follow. =)

5) Leave the lights out and don't feed the fish during treatment. Also, do NOT raise the temps. Keep them at about 82-84 in case they also have an internal bacterial infection.

6) Dose the tank with Metro twice a day. Dose in the morning, leave the lights out, then dose again at night after your water change. Second day, dose again in the morning (no water change), then WC of 60% at night and dose again.

Continue the Metro for 7 days and watch for signs of improvement...black poop is the first sign that they are recovering, and then signs of hunger. Try feeding them after 5 days of treatment to see if they respond well.

If there is no sign of improvement after 7 days, come back here to post and we'll take it from there.

[tvaneekhoven]

We do run pre filter media in both of our canister filters on the tank that we do rinse out every wc...we have pure metro we picked up at a lfs.....also looking into prazi pro to see if that's any better than the general cure stuff which I realize is a mix of metro and prazi....as far as sand we don't like it and that's why we did not put it in the tank we chose larger gravel that we clean the best we can every wc and I know its not the cleanest and Im sure its probably pretty nasty under all of it but our water quality seems fine as ive said before we have rams that breed constantly in the tank....the darting around of the others have seemed to stop there not rubbing anymore maybe one fish once in the last 24 hours! Yey! The blue diamond is still not better still whiteish clear poop but he has been coming out swimming around every day and seems interested in us and food which Im hopeful for him! The pigeon is still hiding in the back corner and not eating very sad to say :-( would it be better if i just used metro? Or would prazi be a better option? Should I stop with the general cure? Im thinking sense the others are seeming much better to qt the 2 sick ones and just treat them and stop with the meds for the rest sense they seem back to normal....planning a very large wc tomorrow and hopefully I can just qt those 2 and save them

[strawberryblonde]

I'm not sure what else I can tell you. You know the gravel isn't good for them, but refuse to consider sand, which is the far cleaner option. Hmmm, for the pre-filters, I'm talking about actual pre-filters that fit onto the intakes of your filters. By using them you avoid needing to open and clean the canister filter all the time, which is easier and better for the beneficial bacteria in the filter media itself.

If your discus are sick it doesn't really matter if your rams are constantly spawning in the tank. Whatever is building up and stressing the immune systems of your discus is the real problem, regardless of the rams.

Ok, just two other quick things to mention. =)

1) If you have young discus, please consider doing water changes more often in order to give them a better chance at normal growth.

2) Whether you move them to QT or not, if you decide to go with Metro, be sure to dose 300mg. per 10 gallons and dose it twice a day with lights off. Water change once a day.

Prazi isn't indicated here, so if was me, I wouldn't use it. If the Metro doesn't help, then it's time to look at the possibility of a bacterial infection.

[tvaneekhoven]

The only reason I don't want sand is ive never had it and have never tried it before. I wouldn't know how to take care of it in the least little bit. Is it just like gravel? Do you siphon it whem you clean? Wouldn't it get all sucked out during a wc? Or do you just hold it about the sand when u siphon? Doesn't it have to be stirred up every now and then tp prevent dead spots or something like that? Ive read about it but am afraid ill mess it up. We just got a 90 gallon were getting cleaned up and ready to put them in and sand could go in that if someone would give me pointers on how to properly care for it would be awesome! And Im going today to the lfs that sells all the good meds and stuff ill pick up morrow metro and hope it works for him. This morning he seems about the same he was swimming with the others but now hes kinda by himself :-( so ill Deffanantly be qt those 2 and pray for the best thaya the metro works. Thank you for your advice! What kind of wc schedule would you recommend?

[OC Discus]

Pool filter sand is fine enough that debris does not get under it, yet coarse enough that your vac won't pick it up if you just hold it slightly above the sand. Most of the bad stuff just sits on top of the sand and your vac will suck it up. The video I saw on it suggested stirring the sand lightly with your hand "after" water changes to keep air moving in it.

I bought the bag of pfs from home depot and only used a small fraction of it to cover the bottom of the tank. Rinse the sand repeatedly under running water in a bucket until it is clear before putting it in the tank. Then add it a cupful at a time with filters off after gravel has been removed. It won't cause a cloud. Do a water change of at least 50% after adding the sand just to clean up any fine debris.

You can also remove the gravel without making a mess. Turn filters off. Scoop it out with a plastic cup or something similar. Vacuum out the bottom and wipe clean before adding clean water. Fill up the bare bottom tank then add the rinsed sand one cup at a time. Lower the cup all the way to the bottom and tip it over. Just use enough to cover the surface and you're fine.




The only reason I don't want sand is ive never had it and have never tried it before. I wouldn't know how to take care of it in the least little bit. Is it just like gravel? Do you siphon it whem you clean? Wouldn't it get all sucked out during a wc? Or do you just hold it about the sand when u siphon? Doesn't it have to be stirred up every now and then tp prevent dead spots or something like that? Ive read about it but am afraid ill mess it up. We just got a 90 gallon were getting cleaned up and ready to put them in and sand could go in that if someone would give me pointers on how to properly care for it would be awesome! And Im going today to the lfs that sells all the good meds and stuff ill pick up morrow metro and hope it works for him. This morning he seems about the same he was swimming with the others but now hes kinda by himself :-( so ill Deffanantly be qt those 2 and pray for the best thaya the metro works. Thank you for your advice! What kind of wc schedule would you recommend?

[tvaneekhoven]

Thank you :-)

[OC Discus]

Be careful to keep temp up or raise to 88 or so for a few days after you remove gravel and add sand. It will be a little stressful for the fish and the nastys like ick will be after them.


Thank you :-)

[strawberryblonde]

They actually don't want to raise the tank temps right now because of the possibility of a bacterial infection in some of the discus. It's better to just do more frequent large water changes in order to reduce the levels of any pathogens. Ich isn't really an issue since if it doesn't exist in the tank right now, it can't suddenly appear when you remove gravel. It has to be brought in with plants or other new fish who haven't been properly QT'd.

[OC Discus]

Sorry. Bad idea. I had an outbreak of ick immediately after removing gravel and replacing with sand. Lightly on Discus- treated with temp and salt. Cleared up then cardinals got it when temp dropped too low. Lost seven cardinals to ick after the gravel to sand transition. I think it was there all along, they just succumbed to it under stress.




They actually don't want to raise the tank temps right now because of the possibility of a bacterial infection in some of the discus. It's better to just do more frequent large water changes in order to reduce the levels of any pathogens. Ich isn't really an issue since if it doesn't exist in the tank right now, it can't suddenly appear when you remove gravel. It has to be brought in with plants or other new fish who haven't been properly QT'd.

[tvaneekhoven]

Well we treated the main tank with metro all the other fish are normal did a huge water change last night removed the blue diamond to qt and am treating him with metro alone as hes still sick :-( black tail fin looks tore up white poop still and cloudy eyes Im not sure what else to try or keep using the metro....water in my main tank remains great all the other fish are acting normal no more darting or rubbing just the bd so didn't want to continue to treat the main tank when everyone else has been better for a while...will continue water changes more frequently and hope they stay better....but what in the world is going on with my poor blue :-(

[tvaneekhoven]

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b615/tvaneekhoven/Mobile%20Uploads/imagejpeg_3_2_zpsd2af5776.jpg

[tvaneekhoven]

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b615/tvaneekhoven/Mobile%20Uploads/imagejpeg_2_15_zps01c9dbce.jpg

[tvaneekhoven]

http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b615/tvaneekhoven/Mobile%20Uploads/imagejpeg_6_zps7d085621.jpg

[tvaneekhoven]

Also my pigeon blood is still hiding in the.corner of the tank haven't seen him poop yet to tell if its white....should I stick.him with the bd? If hes sick still I don't want him spreading it to the others :-\

[tvaneekhoven]

Well my blue diamond now looks like his slime coat is coming off? Ive never seen it happen but Im guessing that's Whats going on looks like his skin is peeling off...Idk what to do to save him :-(

[PP_GBR]

Try Furan-2 or Tetra Fungus Guard. You can buy Tetra Fungus Guard @ Petsmart.

[tvaneekhoven]

Is it a fungus? He was poping white for a while but hes not eating anymore so Omg not sure if he still would be....don't want to treat for something he doesn't have make him worse

[tvaneekhoven]

Im* not sure (sorry auto correct)

[PP_GBR]

TFG or Furan 2 is good for treating body slime coat.

[dirtyplants]

Furan 2 is effective against gram-positive and gram negative bacterial diseases including; Furunculosis (Aeromonas), Dropsy, Gill Disease, Fin and Tail Rot, Hemorrhagic Septicemia, Eye Cloud, Black Molly Disease.

[tvaneekhoven]

Ok thank you

[dirtyplants]

White poop may indicate worms round or hexamita. Not sure if metro effects poop color. Worms are usually treated with levaimsole.

[dirtyplants]

White poop may indicate worms round or hexamita. Not sure if metro effects poop color. Worms are usually treated with levaimsole. Flat worms treated with prazi. If you don't have any idea if bacteria or parasitical, Furan 2 may be a good choice be default.

[tvaneekhoven]

He had the white poop before we treated with metro....ill look into it thank you

[tvaneekhoven]

There are pictures tword the beginning of thread with him and shows his poop color