Help please

[krislewis3]

<a href="http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/krislewis3/media/image-3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo image-3.jpg"/></a>



This is my favorite discus, who is suddenly sick, losing its slime coat, clamping his fins. As a juvie, he had a Gil infection, that never got better. You can see the white fringe-like tissue that hangs out from his Gil's when he breathes. Because it didn't seem to affect his growth etc. , I was hoping for the best. My question is....do you think the Gil issue has got the best of him, or could something else be going on??

[troysdiiscus]

Hey krislewis, can not see the imagine you posted, also fill this out with the attachment of pics, will get alot more people waying in...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, this the picture?
http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/krislewis3/media/image-3.jpg.html)

[Gorf]

Could you try to take a sharper & better lit photo please?

Also give us some history of the fish.

[strawberryblonde]

I have no problem with the quality of the photo since it shows the darkened color, the clamped fins and the slime coat issue, but here's a better version of the same photo for you.

80579

Hi Kris,

Right now my main concern is whether or not you QT'd the new LFS discus that you just purchased. Did you add him to this tank? If so, he may have brought in something with him. If not, did you add anything else new to the tank in the last month?

[Gorf]

Thanks Toni, but I'd like to see that white marking near the gill plate a lot clearer.

Can the OP post the tank parameters & also the behaviour of this fish?

[troysdiiscus]

Hey Kris, I gave you a link to the questionare, if you could please fill that out, can better get this bad boy or girl on the road to recovery...

[Madaboutdiscus]

Is that red stringy poo I see in the picture?

-Victoria

[krislewis3]

Thanks for responding.... The history on this fish is: firstly, it came from Hans, a reliable source. I purchased him, along with a silver pigeon, approx. 1 1/2 years ago. You may remember some earlier videos of these two fish, when I was questioning an apparent breathing problem that both were exhibiting. I was advised to call Hans, which I did, who determined that both fish had acquired an infection in there gills, that created the damage that I was seeing. Hans said that had I picked up on it earlier, it could have been remedied, but that the damage was done at the point that I noticed it.
Any way, both fish ate well, and grew to be 7". Now, suddenly, the red Turk, is clearly dying. I'm wondering if you guys think it's the old Gil damage that he has had since a 2 1/2 ", or is something else going on that might affect the rest of my tank?????

[krislewis3]

Is that red stringy poo I see in the picture?

-Victoria
No......his feces are normal......now however, he has stopped eating.

[krislewis3]

Oh yes......I noticed last night that when he breaths, along with the white fringe like tissue escaping from his gills, I'm noticing a wider gap when he breathes, and I can see the inside, which is clearly quite red!!!
Tank parameters are normal, WC schedule is 4x weekly, but now since this problem began, daily!!!!

[Gorf]

Could I see a better photo of the gill area please? Did Hans suggest what the gill infection was? Can you post your water tests & do you have an air stone?

[Madaboutdiscus]

Kris fill out the questionnaire for us and the more knowledgeable folks will be able to help you. My knowledge only extends so far lol.

-Victoria

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-4.jpg




This is today's photo....still not eating, and his breathing not improved,however he looks a little better, color, and fins!!!

[Elliots]

I have a very similar fish from Hans and my fish's color often goes dark like yours but it does come back to a light color shortly or hours later. My fish also gets dark like that before, during and after spawning. It also breathes heavily. There is nothing coming out of his gills however. That is the best I can do as I am not good at diagnosing and treating fish ailments.

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/Gil%20problems/image.jpg

Wow....am I seeing problems with this guy too??? Notice how his ventral fins are stuck together, he's peppered......any thoughts????

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I am moving your thread to the disease section. Filling out the questionnaire might be a good idea at this point.

[krislewis3]

Disease Questionnaire - please complete
Please complete thus questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste). The more details you can provide, the better we are able to diagnose and help you treat your sick fish.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

- 48 hours ago...


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

-hiding
-clamped fins
- dark color
- won't eat

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

- daily water change seems to perk him up temporally



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

- 60 gallon, 5 adult discus, 3 Bolivian rams, 2 Cory cats, 2 bn pleco


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

- 4x weekly 50% WC.....


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
- up for 2 years, sand substrate, 24" deep

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

-no aging


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ____85_

- ph ___7__

- ammonia reading _0___

- nitrite reading ___0_

- nitrate reading __10__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __yes__

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

-no


10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[URL=http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/krislewis3/media/image-3.jpg.html]http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg[/URL

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/Gil%20problems/image.jpg

[Skip]

Kris.. I think pat meant to fill out the questionnaire into this thread.. with the pics.. not start another without the pics.. may need to ask to merge the threads for ya

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris.. I think pat meant to fill out the questionnaire into this thread.. with the pics.. not start another without the pics.. may need to ask to merge the threads for ya

Thanks Skip :)

Kris, I merged the threads. No need to lose or repost the pictures and history etc. :)

[zimmjeff]

I've got a couple more questions. What are you feeding? Do you wipe the tank and clean filters with water change? What is your filtration? I hope we can get to the bottom of your troubles. Jeff

[krislewis3]

I've got a couple more questions. What are you feeding? Do you wipe the tank and clean filters with water change? What is your filtration? I hope we can get to the bottom of your troubles. Jeff

I feed freeze dried black worms, beef heart flake from kens fish, tetra bits, brine shrimp flake.....I have a hob 350 penguin, and a large sponge filter. I also use 2 air stones.

[krislewis3]

Thanks Skip :)

Kris, I merged the threads. No need to lose or repost the pictures and history etc. :)

Thank you for helping me Pat, I can't figure out how to merge the photos into the thread with the disease form........

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I can do that for you.

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-5.jpghttp://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-5.jpg

This is a great photo of the inside of the gill cover.......do you think there is any hope??? Should I euthanize him????? Please advise.....

[krislewis3]

Please please please, advice please!!!

[krislewis3]

What do you guys make of the swollen, pinkish area of the genitals?
http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/1f804197-6dd7-4146-90c3-5ebd4e0f2cc4.jpg

[troysdiiscus]

Hard to tell by pic. This has happened since you started with the other symptons? One question, what is that on the bottom of tank?

[krislewis3]

New symptom, and yes...this followed the other symptoms. He seems overall weakened!! I am concerned with the new symptom, in regards to my other discus! I sadly, don't hold out much hope for my red Turk.
As to my substrate: sand, and some glass chips, that are mirrored! They are advertised for aquarium use, and I've had them for close to a year. They look beautiful when the LEDs are on!

[Madaboutdiscus]

Not saying to medicate but I had one with a gill flare like that and the breeder suggested quick cure for flukes. At that point the fish was darting hiding and not eating. Dosed them all with 2 days of quick cure everyone is fine now. That one got stunted because it wasnt eating and by far isnt the prettiest fish in the world but its not hiding or darting anymore and is eating. The gill still flares but I figured that was permanent damage its by far the boldest and friendliest of them all. I can hold it in my hand when I feed them and it just sits there. Like I said im not saying to medicate but thats what helped mine. The only way to see for sure if you have flukes is to do a gill scrape.

-Victoria

[PP_GBR]

K

You need to clean your box.

[PP_GBR]

I meant your mailbox.

[nc0gnet0]

Can I ask how the fish are doing and what you have done so far?

-Rick

[krislewis3]

He isn't doing well....he has developed as swollen, open sore in his genital area. He looks bad, and I wonder if he's suffering. I treated for flukes, and I'm now treating with antibiotics, and salt. I hope he isn't suffering. He's my favorite and largest fish!!!:sad::sad::sad::(

[nc0gnet0]

Just curious, why would you treat this fish for flukes?

[nc0gnet0]

In you original picture there is a small fish that appears just below the mouth region of the sick fish in question.

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg

Would that by any chance be this fish here that you recently purchased?

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/798ef323-0a2e-47d2-94f3-11dd52f3831a.jpg

[a volar]

In you original picture there is a small fish that appears just below the mouth region of the sick fish in question.

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg

Would that by any chance be this fish here that you recently purchased?

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/798ef323-0a2e-47d2-94f3-11dd52f3831a.jpg

Good eye Rick!

[nc0gnet0]

The original gill damage appears to have been a result of ammonia burn, although it is possible that the gills became infected after the ammonia issues. What your seeing with your stendkers discus is most likely a reaction to a pathogen for which they have not yet built up an immunity too, from the fish of asian/lfs origins. Highly doubtfull this intial reaction was caused by gill flukes, otherwise all your fish would be showing symptoms, not just the stendkers. You will find if you fill out the disease questionaire as completely and honestly as you can, the quality of help you will get will increase exponentially.

-Rick

[krislewis3]

In you original picture there is a small fish that appears just below the mouth region of the sick fish in question.

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg

Would that by any chance be this fish here that you recently purchased?

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/798ef323-0a2e-47d2-94f3-11dd52f3831a.jpg

No....the new fish was in a hospital tank until he jumped out, and died!!!! Has any of you had discus that jumped out of their tank ????? It was a small 16 gallon tank!!!

[krislewis3]

I treated for flukes in response to a pm message I got here, who thought that flukes were a possibility. I'm beginning to think that Hans was correct in his assessment that it was damage from an early, untreated infection, that is now chronic and untreatable. I keep trying because he is my favorite fish, and he seems to be suffering...............kris

[nc0gnet0]

My advice would be to put him in a qt tank, along with the other large pigeon blood that is also showing symptoms, and treat with furan-2 and a half dose of meth blue. Flukes aren't selective, if you had them all your fish would be suffering, plus you would be noticing a lot of flashing going on in the tank. Also, get rid of the salt, if your fish is having difficulty breathing, IMO it only makes the problem worse. Also, in the future:


On a last note if your given unsolicited advice privately via PM. Please consider the source of that advice and ask yourself why that advice is not being posted in your disease thread. If someone doesn't have enough confidence in their advice to post it publicly, for confirmation or criticism, then you shouldn't have any confidence in that advice.

Enough said,
Pat http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73662-Disease-Board-please-read-this!!!!!

[strawberryblonde]

I guess I need to speak up here. =)

I believe the PM that Kris is referring to is mine, in response to her request for help via PM. I never said flukes! I recommended a course of Tetra Parasite Guard (which contains an antibiotic as well as Prazi) as the first step of treatment, and then a full course of Kanamycin in order to target any and all issues that this discus is dealing with.

My thinking was that we needed to first be sure that any parasites were dealt with and then follow that up with an antibiotic that will treat both internal and external bacteria.

I'm always open to other ideas and suggestions though, so definitely follow Rick's advice if you feel Furan2 is a better option than Kanamycin.

[krislewis3]

I guess I need to speak up here. =)

I believe the PM that Kris is referring to is mine, in response to her request for help via PM. I never said flukes! I recommended a course of Tetra Parasite Guard (which contains an antibiotic as well as Prazi) as the first step of treatment, and then a full course of Kanamycin in order to target any and all issues that this discus is dealing with.




My thinking was that we needed to first be sure that any parasites were dealt with and then follow that up with an antibiotic that will treat both internal and external bacteria.

I'm always open to other ideas and suggestions though, so definitely follow Rick's advice if you feel Furan2 is a better option than Kanamycin.


No...that wasn't you., I got several pm offering advise. While I was waiting for meds to arrive, I treated with QC, because I had it on hand, and because one person suggested flukes.

[krislewis3]

My advice would be to put him in a qt tank, along with the other large pigeon blood that is also showing symptoms, and treat with furan-2 and a half dose of meth blue. Flukes aren't selective, if you had them all your fish would be suffering, plus you would be noticing a lot of flashing going on in the tank. Also, get rid of the salt, if your fish is having difficulty breathing, IMO it only makes the problem worse. Also, in the future:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?73662-Disease-Board-please-read-this!!!!!


The pigeon that I was concerned about is fine, but I'm noticing that 3 others are losing their slime coat when I do a WC.
Do you think that's from the QC?

[nc0gnet0]

What concoction of meds do you have in the tank at the moment?

[krislewis3]

What concoction of meds do you have in the tank at the moment?


Firstly, I don't have a free tank to put him in.., my hospital tank has 2 qt fish in it.,..secondly, I'm continuing' to treat with antibiotics, and salt, until I'm finished the treatment!!
I've just never noticed slime coat peeling off after WC! Have you seen this?

[nc0gnet0]

Suit yourself, I'm out. What your seeing with the slime coat is the result of your current treatment.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Suit yourself, I'm out. What your seeing with the slime coat is the result of your current treatment.

+1. If youre using quick cure the reason I stopped it was due to the fish getting very stressed with the second dose. I immediately did a wc and put carbon in to remove all the meds. Not sure if thats what youre using but thats why I stopped it.

-Victoria

[dirtyplants]

I remember reading somewhere that QC depletes the oxygen supply in the tank so if treating with QC I drop the temp to about 80-82 degrees.

[Madaboutdiscus]

I had two bubble curtains going and the temp was down to 86 I didnt think to turn it down. But I only used half doses and they seemed to stress. It may have been because I had the lights off (they stress when its dark) or just the meds but that second dose wasnt in but about an hour and I got it out. But it did seem to help the little one that was suffering. It no longer darts or hides. The gill still flares but I figured that was collateral damage.

-Victoria

[krislewis3]

Suit yourself, I'm out. What your seeing with the slime coat is the result of your current treatment.

Now Im seeing the peeling slime coat in both of my tanks! Im only medicating the 1 tank with the sick turk!

[krislewis3]

+1. If youre using quick cure the reason I stopped it was due to the fish getting very stressed with the second dose. I immediately did a wc and put carbon in to remove all the meds. Not sure if thats what youre using but thats why I stopped it.

-Victoria

I'm noticing this shedding of slime coats in both of my tanks, and, I'm only medicating 1 tank!

[Madaboutdiscus]

Sounds like a water quality issue. Try aging your water

-Victoria

[krislewis3]

Update.... I tried exchanging less water, more often, and was surprised to see the problem disappear!' I do, however, agree that I need to age my water....I just need to find the space!! Thanks all for your help, and support in this. Kris

[hunterxzach14z]

how long are you supposed to age your water?

[Skip]

24 hrs.. aerated.. and heated is a plus

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-4.jpg




This is today's photo....still not eating, and his breathing not improved,however he looks a little better, color, and fins!!!


Update.....unfortunately, this guy was deceased when I checked on him this morning:(

[krislewis3]

I have a very similar fish from Hans and my fish's color often goes dark like yours but it does come back to a light color shortly or hours later. My fish also gets dark like that before, during and after spawning. It also breathes heavily. There is nothing coming out of his gills however. That is the best I can do as I am not good at diagnosing and treating fish ailments.

I'm curious to know if your fish exhibits flared gills with his breathing???

[BODYDUB]

No water aging with a w/c. Your ph from your tap to tank water may be almost, almost too much.............