Erratic swimming and loss of appetite

[joshvito]

Started the morning out with sad news...

One of the 5 Forrest Discus fish from April, was found dead this AM with no apparent signs of stress or disease last night. :( ***?
These fish have been super healthy and eating every day since I received them in April, 6 months of daily 95%+ water changes, a daily drip change system, and 3x feeding of made in usa foods(frozen and flake and pellet).

One of the White butterfly from this shipment died overnight. I found the dead one on its side at the bottom of the tank, no gill movement no reaction to the net. The other 4 fish in the tank looked healthy and normal today. I turned off my drip change system, until I can change the filters this evening. Not sure if I could even pinpoint a source, since there were no signs of stress. I've never even seen any fish in this tank go dark.

Frustrating. :confused:

In memmory, I'll post a photo timeline of my growout experience the last 6 months.

Here is a photo of the fish just after receiving them ~April 11, 2013.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/12/9u5a3u8a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/12/esehu4y4.jpg


May 12, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/13/ynepyhum.jpg


I'll post some more photos in a minute, have to change devices.

[Chicago Discus]

Its not just doing 95% changes IMO you should be cleaning the sides and the bottom of the tank. Also the sponge filter looks pretty bad if you let it cake up like that IMO it has a reverse affect on the bio because it has nowhere to grow or get the beneficial oxygen that it needs to work properly so the bacteria will become anaerobic and stop working....Josie

[joshvito]

June 2, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/7y5eheza.jpg

[joshvito]

July 20, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/guqaza8y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/2aha6ysy.jpg

[joshvito]

August 20, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/ragu9e4e.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/by5u6ymu.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/qube5agu.jpg

[joshvito]

Its not just doing 95% changes IMO you should be cleaning the sides and the bottom of the tank. Also the sponge filter looks pretty bad if you let it cake up like that IMO it has a reverse affect on the bio because it has nowhere to grow or get the beneficial oxygen that it needs to work properly so the bacteria will become anaerobic and stop working....Josie

Tank gets wiped down every other day. Filter get cleaned/squeezed weekly.
I'll post ammonia and nitrite/nitrate test results tonight.

Thank you for your reply.

[BODYDUB]

They look pretty darn good already............

[PP_GBR]

J

Not only you need to vacuum the tank but you also need to take your sponge filter apart to clean inside the base and the lift tube. Inspect your tank to see if there is fuzzy white stuffs like mold in the tank.

[Kal-El]

I think it's time to move them out of that small tank so they can really grow in a bigger tank.

[joshvito]

PH : 8.0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/6y9a2yve.jpg

Ammonia: 0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/ehugu3yq.jpg

Nitrite and Nitrate test strip read 0

Nitrate
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/jepy7e3u.jpg

[blueluv]

Ok? Are my eyes playing tricks in me or are you using a salt water test kit?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[Ryan]

Ok? Are my eyes playing tricks in me or are you using a salt water test kit?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

If it's the Hagen wide-range pH test kit, they are designed for fresh or salt water.

[joshvito]

October 8, 2013
RIP 1 x white butterfly
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/uvy8etu6.jpg

I thoroughly cleaned the sponges today too.

[joshvito]

It's Hagen brand. Salt and fresh. :)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Chicago Discus]

Aww Im sorry about your little guy Josh :(....Josie

[WaterDog]

I'd never run my tank with that much algae everywhere. Your tests look good but so what fish died. Basic water test don't tell you everything and never will. Things go on that you cannot see or test for. **** happens, get over it and get a much much bigger tank for them. The grow out is over, time for a 180 or more for them. Trying to control all parameters on a closed loop small tank is a never ending battle. Those small breeder tanks you see are on a continuously circulating huge water volume system.

[BODYDUB]

They look pretty darn good already............

Sorry about this post, I must have had too many tabs open. Sorry for our loss..............

[John_Nicholson]

I'd never run my tank with that much algae everywhere. Your tests look good but so what fish died. Basic water test don't tell you everything and never will. Things go on that you cannot see or test for. **** happens, get over it and get a much much bigger tank for them. The grow out is over, time for a 180 or more for them. Trying to control all parameters on a closed loop small tank is a never ending battle. Those small breeder tanks you see are on a continuously circulating huge water volume system.

Disagree with this. Algae does not normally hurt fish. I have also raised spawns out in 20 and 29 gallon tanks. Not huge water system, just daily water changes. I do not think his water had anything to do with it or all of the fish would have been affected.

-john

[joshvito]

I combined all my juvies into one 55gallon tank.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/yvuzevad.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/y4a3age3.jpg

[joshvito]

Tested parameters after WC 6hrs ago.

pH - 8.0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/a2ygahes.jpg

Ammonia - 0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/epa5u5u7.jpg

Nitrate - 0-5ppm
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/usavy4yt.jpg

[Meganne]

might be my eyes or monitor but your pH looks 7.5 to me and your Nitrates somewhere between 0 and 5.0,......not bad but not 0

your juvies are beautiful

[du3ce]

the red melon is starting to take off, i have one growing out as well

[mmdiscus1]

What is your tank size here? I am also planning to grow out 6 juvies in bb, what tank size minimum is ok?

June 2, 2013
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/08/7y5eheza.jpg

[chinoy168]

What size tank growing out yur six juvenile s

[joshvito]

@mmdiscus1 i started the grow out in a 20G high with daily 95%+ manual change and a constant drip change.

[joshvito]

The fish don't seem to like their new surroundings; I haven't changed anything since I moved them. WC schedule is the same, feed and timing is the same.
Lost one blue turq fish today, jumped up onto the glass top and dried out. :(

I'm posting a video of some erratic swimming going on, not sure of the cause.

http://youtu.be/zU_Pv1TJRV0

[BODYDUB]

Resubscribed to see if anyone can explain the erratic swimming..............

[rdiscus]

Why you put them all together? they don't look good together

[joshvito]

Please complete thus questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste). The more details you can provide, the better we are able to diagnose and help you treat your sick fish.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I combined 2 tanks of healthy looking and eating young adult/juvies into 1 larger tank. The blue turqs from one tank seem to be affected a bit more, but all fish seem a bit stressed. One tank of fish have been in my fish room for 6+ months. The other for 12+months.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Turned slightly darker, no excess slime. Eating less aggressively. Darting erratic swimming.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

I tried a 6-8 hr 2ppm PP treatment last Sunday.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
55 gallon tank
10 x 4-5'' fish

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Daily 90% change and
Daily 3-4gph drip change

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Bare bottom, 3 years

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No aging. PH from tap matches tank. Use tank volume amount of Safe with WC.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.



- temp ____82_

- ph _____ 8.0

- ammonia reading ___0_

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____0-5

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ___y_100%

- RO water ____



9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Fish Video and journal at:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?109787-White-Butterfly-and-Red-Melon-Grow-out-thread&p=1041046&viewfull=1#post1041046

[joshvito]

@rdiscus to make daily water changes easier and to give them a bit more room until I'm ready to place them in the display tank.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Second Hand Pat]

Josh, since you combined two groups of fish are fish from both groups darting or only one group?

[Allwin]

Probably the fish is looking for some hiding place, since it is not comfortable in its new environment.

1. Turn-off the lights.
2. Put some drift-wood or some hiding place.
3. Its debatable, but i would prefer lighter background than darker bg, its ok though.

more sooner better the life of the fish,good luck..

[Second Hand Pat]

I am adding this for reference and I am not saying this is the problem. If you want a long drawn out read.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87723-Very-Suddenly-Sick/page23&highlight=Very+Suddenly+Sick

Post 340...


I am back! Sorry for all the wrong spellings....my mobile key board is too small....hmmm....

Yes, When the discus lies stiff and breathing slowly or glide lethagically near the surface, it literally means that aeration isn't the cause. It is neither the protozoan costia as the symptom of heavy infestation of costia is the dislodgement or dropping of large area of scales. Heavy infestation by chilodonella would also result in gill filaments being blocked thus sign of heavy breathing ....though slightly less heavy breathing than critical infestation by gill flukes.....

Imagine opening your skull and use a needle to tickle your nerve sensors. Serious damage will cause irreversible consequences while of course, those affected yet without permanent damage may recover which is about less than 2% through my years of observation.

If you/your breeders/suppliers have been feeding the discus with live or poorly prepared bloodworms or especially tubiflex worms, then there is a clear likelihood or chance that these active flagellates get into your discus population.

It is my belief that prophylactic treatment is extremely necessary. Quarantine without treatment is just a process to bring parasites to passive level and when you finally introduce the new discus (3 weeks later) into the existing stock, you are at the same time, introducing new 'friends' of similar strains (buddies) to those existing in your tank and at the same time, introducing whatever new parasites your existing discus may not have seen before. My book has explained the quarantine process....and is a long story......

Prophylactic for your case, Pat, is also explained in my books. You can use metronidazole @ a higher dose level. It should be able to eliminate all and must be applied in water and in feed. This may be slightly different from my book: Dissolve 3 gms in lukewarm water first and then add to 100 liters of water. You can redose every 8 hours but I prefer leaving it inside for 3 to 4 days, water change and redose. Total days:12. At the same time, add 1.5 to 2.0 gms to 100 of beefheart mix. These flagellates are hard to eliminate as compared to other flagellates like Hexamita or spiro.

Another drug that works well is Grabbrocol which is a dewormer for Pigeon...as in Pigeon. It is manufactured and sold in non-English speaking countries.

Further details....they are also in the book or you can ask those who have bought my books to explain in greater length.

Take care and hope that helps,

Andrew

[the20tonknuckler]

Great grab there pat. I think Andrew Soh's post is dead on.

[Second Hand Pat]

Mike, I hope not, that was a long road to walk.

[joshvito]

Lost one more of the Blue Turq's last night.
Total fish count is now 9

I'm heading to the LFS to get my water (tank and source) double checked.

[joshvito]

Josh, since you combined two groups of fish are fish from both groups darting or only one group?

So far, the fish that are affected seem to only be the Blue Turqs I have raised from fry.
The other 4 fish are not darting around, but i do notice a general lack of vigor when fed.

[joshvito]

Lost 1 Blue Turq over night. Tank now holds 9 fish.

Timeline recap.

10/12/13 - combined fish
10/19/13 - noticed weird swimming behavior, loss of appetite in erratic swimming individuals, this is also date of video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU_Pv1TJRV0&feature=share&list=UUGaXW_slL9t7eAqARzOloQQ)
10/21/13 - loss of appetite in more fish
10/23/13 - one Blue Turq found dead on top of glass top
10/24/13 - one Blue Turq found dead in tank in AM

[Second Hand Pat]

Josh, my take away from this is this your Blue Turqs have not been exposed to something your other group has. Sorry to read you lost one. Was it the one darting in the video I saw last night. Also as a precaution if you feel any of the fish are on death's door, pull it and cull it. Try to not allow any fish to die or remain dead in the tank. My basis for saying this (and this is my personal opinion) is once a fish dies any living things (parasites etc) inside leave the fish.

Again I do not know if what you are experiencing is the same thing I did. I will try and find some of my videos showing the darting/whirling my fish experienced. Also one more observation on your video. The fish I saw darting appeared to be the smallest in the group and perhaps the most vulnerable to whatever is happening in the tank.

[joshvito]

Josh, my take away from this is this your Blue Turqs have not been exposed to something your other group has. Sorry to read you lost one. Was it the one darting in the video I saw last night. Also as a precaution if you feel any of the fish are on death's door, pull it and cull it. Try to not allow any fish to die or remain dead in the tank. My basis for saying this (and this is my personal opinion) is once a fish dies any living things (parasites etc) inside leave the fish.

Again I do not know if what you are experiencing is the same thing I did. I will try and find some of my videos showing the darting/whirling my fish experienced. Also one more observation on your video. The fish I saw darting appeared to be the smallest in the group and perhaps the most vulnerable to whatever is happening in the tank.

The darting fish I showed in the video is still alive. It's actually the larger Blue Turqs that have died. I pulled the dead fish asap. Honestly, I share things between tanks all the time, and my adults in another tank are not affected. I plan to not share anything from this tank going forward.

[100fuegos]

Had that before in my grow out tank. The two fishes that did that ended up jumping out and dried. That was when they were ~ 4". Nowdays I am almost sure what caused it on my fish, mussels. Back then I was feeding mussels everyday. In another forum a hobbyist breeder noticed it and warned it, everytime he fed mussels that erratic behavior was noticed in some fishes.

Never gave him much credit until recently, I started feeding mussels again and one, now adult, started doing the same. I have read online, following a link from this very forum, an article about a toxin in mussels, can't located now.

So at least on my case I am pretty sure what caused it. My adult fish recovered fully after a week with nothing but dayly WC.

HIH

[Ryan]

Josh, what do you do to your water prior to using it? Is it aged? What are you using as dechlor? Do you have any tanks besides this one, and if so, how are your other fish acting?

The darting in that video doesn't look like the darting of scared fish to me. It looks like the darting of fish who're being irritated by something in the water.

Are you sure there's no stray current from a faulty filter/heater? That will cause discus to be jumpy and nervous.

[joshvito]

Had that before in my grow out tank. The two fishes that did that ended up jumping out and dried. That was when they were ~ 4". Nowdays I am almost sure what caused it on my fish, mussels. Back then I was feeding mussels everyday. In another forum a hobbyist breeder noticed it and warned it, everytime he fed mussels that erratic behavior was noticed in some fishes.

Never gave him much credit until recently, I started feeding mussels again and one, now adult, started doing the same. I have read online, following a link from this very forum, an article about a toxin in mussels, can't located now.

So at least on my case I am pretty sure what caused it. My adult fish recovered fully after a week with nothing but dayly WC.

HIH

I don't think I am feeding any mussels.
Not sure about the ingredients in http://www.hikariusa.com/diets/bio-pure-frozen-discus/ ...

[joshvito]

Josh, what do you do to your water prior to using it? Is it aged? What are you using as dechlor? Do you have any tanks besides this one, and if so, how are your other fish acting?

The darting in that video doesn't look like the darting of scared fish to me. It looks like the darting of fish who're being irritated by something in the water.

Are you sure there's no stray current from a faulty filter/heater? That will cause discus to be jumpy and nervous.

I fill from the tap(have been for years w/o issue), and declor with Seachem Safe (enough for tank volume).
The pH from the tap matches the tank, and I'm pretty good at getting the temp within a degree or two.

I haven't checked the heater, but I don't get a shock when I put my hand in tank. Can I check this with my volt meter? Is there some expected stray voltage or should it be none?

[nc0gnet0]

Blue turns affected, pigeon bloods not?
These are the contest turks, correct?

[joshvito]

Blue turns affected, pigeon bloods not?
These are the contest turns, correct?

yes

[joshvito]

I just confirmed my water parameters with LFS

Tank Water

ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5


Tap Water

ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5

[joshvito]

I just confirmed the following water parameters via my LFS

Tank Water
ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5


Tap Water
ph > 7.6
ammonia reading 0
nitrite reading 0
nitrate reading 0-5

I also picked up some Metro (http://www.hikariusa.com/solutions/healthaid/metroplus/)+ in the case I decide to medicate. Unfortunately no Tetra Parasite Guard at that store.

[Ryan]

Sometimes the parameters we test for in aquariums don't really tell you the whole story. There could be some other chemical in there that doesn't show up on an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test. Can you call your water company and see if anything changed? Is there a possibility that a chemical/pesticide got into the tank? Just throwing out ideas.

[joshvito]

Sometimes the parameters we test for in aquariums don't really tell you the whole story. There could be some other chemical in there that doesn't show up on an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate test. Can you call your water company and see if anything changed? Is there a possibility that a chemical/pesticide got into the tank? Just throwing out ideas.

The other 10 tanks in my fish room are unaffected. I have tanks of shrimp and other juvenile fish. I'm thinking it is not a source water issue. Definitely no chemicals have been introduced to the tank. I'm the only caretaker, and my wife doesn't go into my "man" basement unless you want to borrow a tool.

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, When the discus lies stiff and breathing slowly or glide lethagically near the surface, it literally means that aeration isn't the cause. It is neither the protozoan costia as the symptom of heavy infestation of costia is the dislodgement or dropping of large area of scales. Heavy infestation by chilodonella would also result in gill filaments being blocked thus sign of heavy breathing ....though slightly less heavy breathing than critical infestation by gill flukes.....

Is this the case of a typo and that is in fact andrew saying it is costia or chilo? Or is he pointing to something esle that did not get included in your copy/paste Pat? Without commenting on to which what Andrew was posting about, the symptoms in this case seem to point away from a parasitic infestation, otherwise, all the fish in the tank woudl be showing at least some signs of sickness/stress. I am not saying you can rule parasites out, however, that would not be my first guess.

-Rick

[nc0gnet0]

Posting information to two threads is making this hard to keep track of. Your much better off merging threads if the mods can help.

[joshvito]

I didn't notice any erratic swimming when I got home from work. No more losses either. I did note some hierarchical chasing.

1 cube of freeze dried blackworms was eaten by a couple fish. I pulled tge majority of it out an hour later.

Instead of pumping wc water directly into the tank, I bubbled it in a trash can with Safe for an hour. I used only this as my replacement water.

Added two pieces of driftwood and turned out the light after WC. I noticed some crazy swimming by a couple fish while refilling. But nothing weird after lights off.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/25/y2y4esen.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/25/enynyqy6.jpg

[joshvito]

Posting information to two threads is making this hard to keep track of. Your much better off merging threads if the mods can help.
I agree. I thought if I posted in the disease forum, I'd get more advice.

Wish there was a way to cross reference one thread into to sub forums.


If the admin's can move the other thread (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?110154-Erratic-swimming-and-loss-of-appetite) here, and keep it listed there too, that would be awesome. Or just combine them. Either way works.

[Second Hand Pat]

Is this the case of a typo and that is in fact andrew saying it is costia or chilo? Or is he pointing to something esle that did not get included in your copy/paste Pat? Without commenting on to which what Andrew was posting about, the symptoms in this case seem to point away from a parasitic infestation, otherwise, all the fish in the tank woudl be showing at least some signs of sickness/stress. I am not saying you can rule parasites out, however, that would not be my first guess.

-Rick

Rick, I think that was a typo on Andrew's part. I included a link to the originating thread and the post number. Based on what I know now after reviewing Josh's previous posts I do not think his fish have a case of internal parasites since only one of the two groups is affected. However when I had fish affected by an internal parasites not all the fish were affected at the same but that is past history.

[Second Hand Pat]

Josh, I will merge the threads together but leave the merged thread in the disease section. I also will save a copy of the grow out thread so you can resume it after the fish are better.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok, merged

[nc0gnet0]

Interesting that Andrew would think a discus has chilo, that is even rarer than a discus getting ich. Chilo pretty much ceases to exist at 28C.


-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, this was a group of wilds in the original thread. The only time I go below 82 is when I have a breeding pair. You could talk to him about it on FB.

[joshvito]

I notice one fish in tank swimming erratic. Swimming in spinning circles and backwards.

[joshvito]

I notice one fish in tank swimming erratic. Swimming in spinning circles and backwards.

I pulled thos fish and placed it in a hospital tank with Metro+

Fish doesn't look dark or slimey but is breathing heavy and laying on side and swimming erratic

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/27/5ydeqeja.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

Now, if this were me, and i was trying to save this fish, i do not think metro would be my choice of medication. I would opt for kanamycin as I am "guessing" this is a bacterial/viral issue and not a parasite. It is however admittadly, just a guess.

-Rick

[joshvito]

I pulled thos fish and placed it in a hospital tank with Metro+

Fish doesn't look dark or slimey but is breathing heavy and laying on side and swimming erratic

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/27/5ydeqeja.jpg

Lost this fish today.

I separated the group of 8. I placed the 4 remaining blue turqs in a 20G and added 20g of Metro+ per bottle instructions.
These fish look a little dark, but no erratic swimming as far as I can tell. However, one of the 4 was the smaller fish in the video I posted in an earlier thread.
We'll see if the Metro+ brings back their appetite. I left the other 4 fish in the 55gallon with no meds.

[nc0gnet0]

We'll see if the Metro+ brings back their appetite. I left the other 4 fish in the 55gallon with no meds.


There is just not a lot of parasites that take down a fish that fast, and the ones that will, metro won't touch.

[Second Hand Pat]

There is just not a lot of parasites that take down a fish that fast, and the ones that will, metro won't touch.

You sure about that at Rick...I lived and breathed that scenario for five months. My record was two hours.

[joshvito]

Should I do a water change today in the medicated tank?

If so, should I add enough meds for the %of water changed or for the entire tank?

Here are the package instructions.


Ingredients:
Metronidazole (2-methyl-5-nitroimidazole-1-ethanol) (active ingredient); sodium chloride, synthetic polymers and a chelating agent.
Directions For Use:
As A Bath: As a bath treatment for external metronidazole-susceptible, microbial diseases of marine and freshwater aquarium and pond fishes (e.g. hole-in-the-head and lateral line), use 1 capful (~9.7g) per 10 gallons of water. A partial or complete water change should be made just prior to beginning treatment and every 24 hours thereafter, followed by re-treatment. Any water used should first be conditioned to remove ammonia, chlorine and chloramines. Repeat the treatment every 24 hours for 5 to 7 days or until mortalities cease or healing of lesions occurs. If improvement is not noted within three (3) days, discontinue treatment and consider other therapy.

Oral Treatment For Fish: For systemic (internal) infections, Metro+ can be fed mixed with fish food.

[nc0gnet0]

You sure about that at Rick...I lived and breathed that scenario for five months. My record was two hours.

what parasite are you refereing to Pat? And did you treat succusfully with metro?

I am looking at the progession of the sickness and the way it appers to have been transmitted. Josh had a tank of pigoen bloods from one source, they were fine and didn't show any signs of illness. Josh then added fish from a second tank, which for the sake of argument were fine as well, and he combined them. Second batcch of fish got sick, first batch (pigeon bloods) appeared to not be effected.

Now, if my understanding of this is correct, it is very unusual in the case of a parasitic infection for the one batch of fish to be uneffected (ie gill flukes, hex, etc). This seems to me to be a classic case of a viral or bacterial issue in which the fish from the first batch have developed an immunity or resistance.

Metronidazole, Metro

Ardan Huck May 31, 2002


I just wanted to help people understand the drug Metro and its primary use for dealing with fish.

Metro is mainly used as an anti-flagellate in fish intestines and organs. It kills flagellates. Flagellates are single celled protozoa (most are oval shaped). They move by a small "whip like" organ called a "flagella" (some have one flagella, some have multiple flagella). In treating fish, Metro is mainly effective against "Hexamita, Spironucleus spp., Trichomonas spp., and Protoopalina spp." (all intestinal flagellates) (protoopalina is often confused with a ciliate, it is not proven to be a real parasite to fish) (Untergasser).

Metro does not affect worms. It does have some effect on Ich, and on Cryptocaryon (marine ich). Metro does have a "very limited" antibiotic effect (kill bacteria). Mainly bacteria named Campylobacter fetus bacteria, and Corynebacterium vaginalis (Untergasser).

It has some limited effect on some other bacteria depending on concentration. It is less active against non spore forming, gram positive bacilli and even less active against gram positive cocci (Untergasser, Handbook of Fish Diseases).

Now, there are some flagellated bacteria ("Microbiology in Patient Care" by Morello, Mizer, Wilson). Effectiveness of Metro is limited to very specific bacteria. Metro kills the organisms by "disrupting the DNA of the organism after it enters the cell" ("The Pill Book" by Bantam Books, Silverman,Simon).

My point: Metro is mainly used as an antiflagellate in fish intestines, not as an antibiotic when using for fish.

Extra info: There are flagellates of the fishes' blood, skin, gills, and other organs. However, Metro is not listed as effective against these flagellates according to Untergasser.




-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, Andrew seemed reasonable sure in my case that the issues was with internal parasites and no, this was not confirmed via microscope or any other testing. However using Andrew Soh's treatment protocol using metro the treatment was successful if caught early enough in the disease progression.

Also I agreed earlier (post 55) with your observation regarding Josh fish and that better results might be achieved with kanamycin as you suggested.

[joshvito]

This is a great discussion. Thank you for the input.

Looking back, the death of the one pigeon in post #1 could be related...
At the time, it died looking fine the night before, could it be that the fish were/are sick and transferred to the blue turqs when they were combined.

Another thing to note, the pigeons are affected in that they are not aggressively eating as they once did. Could this be a result of the size of the tank?
Should I move them back to a 20G tank and look for a change in feeding?

Also, is there an anti-bacterial that I can dose along with Metro+? Melafix? Or is it best to finish the Metro+ 5 days first?a

[nc0gnet0]

You can dose kanamycin with metro. Stay away from the melafix, that stuff is useless.

[nc0gnet0]

Rick, Andrew seemed reasonable sure in my case that the issues was with internal parasites and no, this was not confirmed via microscope or any other testing. However using Andrew Soh's treatment protocol using metro the treatment was successful if caught early enough in the disease progression.

Pat, my comments were directed at Josh's posted timeline, which was about one week from introduction of the fish to each other and the beginning of the deaths, not your situation.

[Second Hand Pat]

Got it Rick, back to Josh's issues.

[joshvito]

I moved the pigeons to their own 20 gallon tank today. I haven't noticed any erratic Swimming, but the fish are not eating as expected. Still eating, but slower and not like previous.

I dosed the turqs with Metro+ again as per bottle instructions. I'm just gonna finish the 5 day treatment. I also have some KanaPlex on its way, in case the Metro has no effect.

Here is a quick video of the fish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mQbv86bC8s


I noticed that Jehmco doesn't sell Kanamyacin. They have Neomycin Sulfate (replacement for Kanamycin). Anyone know if it is safe and or works?

[ktltn04]

I moved the pigeons to their own 20 gallon tank today. I haven't noticed any erratic Swimming, but the fish are not eating as expected. Still eating, but slower and not like previous.

I dosed the turqs with Metro+ again as per bottle instructions. I'm just gonna finish the 5 day treatment. I also have some KanaPlex on its way, in case the Metro has no effect.

Here is a quick video of the fish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mQbv86bC8s][/url] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mQbv86bC8s&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I noticed that Jehmco doesn't sell Kanamyacin. They have Neomycin Sulfate (replacement for Kanamycin). Anyone know if it is safe and or works?

You can try angels plus. They have kanamycin in stock

[Chicago Discus]

OMG turn those air-stones down

[Madaboutdiscus]

Wow thats a lot of air bubbles lol.

-Victoria

[Chicago Discus]

Ok Not my business but two months ago you had a very similar thing going on with one of your Juv fish that was not talked about much or discussed. I stayed away because I had my own ideas what I thought might be going with him. And know we are here again with another one of your fish swimming erratically and not doing well and I see the same old advice is being given throw in the metro don't forget the salt with a dash on kana for good measure. Theres more to this then just throwing in meds and crossing your fingers......Josie

[nc0gnet0]

Ok Not my business but two months ago you had a very similar thing going on with one of your Juv fish that was not talked about much or discussed. I stayed away because I had my own ideas what I thought might be going with him. And know we are here again with another one of your fish swimming erratically and not doing well and I see the same old advice is being given throw in the metro don't forget the salt with a dash on kana for good measure. Theres more to this then just throwing in meds and crossing your fingers......Josie

Well, this little tidbit of information might have been helpful....so pray tell Josie, what do you think is going on?

[Chicago Discus]

Well, this little tidbit of information might have been helpful....so pray tell Josie, what do you think is going on?

Wooops…….fell asleep after i wrote this. Rick your such a Ham..:):):)


Ok……..I could be wrong Im not an expert but heres what I observe. after watching several videos on your youtube account josh I noticed a couple things. One is that the smaller fish in your tanks seems to be having the most problems here. Myself when Im growing out fry I keep everyone in the same tank very similar in size, is it the right way, don't know its just how I do it. The next thing I notice is that your tanks seem to be connected some how I'm not really sure how it doesn't show very well in the videos. I notice lots of bars and stress spots on the discus from current videos and past. Ok so we have stressed out Discus. So the first question is why? whats causing these discus to be stressed out? From what I observe in the videos its goes back to basic fish-room care and upkeep. Glare in the tanks, your tanks are setup like an interrogation room, bright lights, mirrors, fast moving shadows (caused by very rapid airflow and high output lights). Cleanliness,when keeping that many fish, plants and other creatures in the same room or environment the only way to succeed is by keeping things clean and bacteria levels down. I have never been to your fish room but from what I observe there seems to be some cross contamination going on. Also the sponge filters really need to be replaced yes i said replaced lack of proper maintenance to the sponge filters has caused most of the good bacteria in them to become anaerobic (dead) and no room for good bacteria to grow causing a poisonous bomb in the middle of the tank. Next we have weakened fish so what do we do we add medication which compounds the problem with there environment causing the fish to become weaker. Fish in general are very capable of keeping themselves healthy given the proper environment and nutrition. Clean water good habitat=healthy fish. So IMO before you start throwing things in the water(Medication) take a look at the environment and see what can be improved.

These are just my thoughts on the issues and how I believe things can improve. Im not a discus expert or a know all in the discus world. This is just my observation of the situation with these fish………..Josie

[joshvito]

Wooops…….fell asleep after i wrote this. Rick your such a Ham..:):):)


... The next thing I notice is that your tanks seem to be connected some how I'm not really sure how it doesn't show very well in the videos. ...

These are just my thoughts on the issues and how I believe things can improve. Im not a discus expert or a know all in the discus world. This is just my observation of the situation with these fish………..Josie

Thank you fro your thoughts Josie.
FYI, tanks are not connected. They all are plumbed with drains for a continuous overflow to waste water/sewer.

[Chicago Discus]

Thank you fro your thoughts Josie.
FYI, tanks are not connected. They all are plumbed with drains for a continuous overflow to waste water/sewer.

Ohhhh I was trying to figure out how or if they were connected LOL……….Josie

[joshvito]

Noticed the following whitish poo in the pigeon tank. I am not treating them at the moment.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/30/yhudepyj.jpg

Is this just water logged or is it internal parasites?

The blue turqs look a bit better, they were attacking their FDBW cube today.

[nc0gnet0]

there is a fish in that pic?

[joshvito]

there is a fish in that pic?

No, just poo.

[nc0gnet0]

what is that purple stuff?

[joshvito]

what is that purple stuff?

Uneaten flake. (http://www.angelsplus.com/FlakeImmune.htm)

[100fuegos]

there is a fish in that pic?

Actually there is a reflection of at least two fish

Sent from my Cube U9GT2 using Tapatalk

[Allwin]

I would start treating and try 2days epsom salt along with 5-7 days metro,86deg

[joshvito]

I finished the Metro+ regiment on the blue turq's tank on 10/31/13.
I lowered the airflow, and dimmed the light on their bank of tanks.

The fish looked better up until a day or two ago. They appear to have heavier breathing and look stressed. Appetite has slowed again. :(

I haven't altered the temperature or schedule of my WC's.

[PP_GBR]

J:

Have you noticed any heavier breathing after you reduced the airflow? What're your water params?

[joshvito]

J:

Have you noticed any heavier breathing after you reduced the airflow? What're your water params?

The heavier breathing is not correlated to the reduction in air flow.
I'll post a water test tonight.

[PP_GBR]

Could you post a video? What are you feeding them and how much?

[joshvito]

I feed high protein flake from angels plus in the am. I Feed a small pinch, about 1/8" between my fingers. They get a 1cm cube of freeze dried blackworms when I get home from work. And a chunk of frozen worms/discus/plankton/larvae before bedtime.

Here is a video from before WC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyCoKNVmkc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here is a video after WC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnFap4sZ9g0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Test results.
Ph - 8.0
Nh3/nh4 - 0
Nitrate - ~5ppm
Nitrite - 0
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/yre4yhev.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/na7edy6y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/e3avahet.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/07/ezu8eda4.jpg

[PP_GBR]

Josh

From what I saw, your fish is breathing harder after wc. Do you age your water overnight?

[joshvito]

I don't age water overnight. I usually age for a couple hours with air and Seachem Safe. I've also checked my tap parameters to my tank, and they have same pH hardness and TDs. Temperature is always within 5 degrees.
Sometimes I fill straight from the tap. In these cases, I add enough Safe for the entire tank volume.

Also, I just realized the labels on my videos are reversed. It won't let me edit that post from yesterday #93, can a mod help?

[Second Hand Pat]

Josh, you need to videos switched or the titles?

[joshvito]

Josh, you need to videos switched or the titles?

The video links in post 93# are titled/labelled (e.g. pre water change) opposite what they are. So swaping the link or the labels will be okay. Ill update the youtube titles too

[Second Hand Pat]

The video links in post 93# are titled/labelled (e.g. pre water change) opposite what they are. So swaping the link or the labels will be okay. Ill update the youtube titles too

Josh, I swapped the links of the videos since the labels were in the correct order.

[PP_GBR]

Josh

How is the fish doing? Are they still breathing fast?

[joshvito]

Still breathing fast. I used overnight aged water for their WC today and added a piece of driftwood. Thinking it may add security. The pigeons seem fine now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[PP_GBR]

J

If I was you, I'd give them a light pink PP overnight. Are they eating well for you?

[Discus-Hans]

PP overnight???? One of these days I start sending out checks to everybody who advice people to use PP, it's good for my business.

Little question here, how many people killed their Discus with PP and how many saved their Discus with PP????

Hans

[Chicago Discus]

PP overnight???? One of these days I start sending out checks to everybody who advice people to use PP, it's good for my business.

Little question here, how many people killed their Discus with PP and how many saved their Discus with PP????

Hans

+1 couldn't agree more


J

If I was you, I'd give them a light pink PP overnight. Are they eating well for you?

Just curious………Can we see photos of some of your Discus because I can't seem to find any.


People there is no secret in keeping discus healthy proper quarantine, cycled tank, clean water, nutritious food = HEALTHY DISCUS.


Josh,

To stay on topic in my opinion, The fish that are having issues I would take off your drip system (if they are on one). I have never been a real big fan of the drip system………Josie

[nc0gnet0]

Just curious………Can we see photos of some of your Discus because I can't seem to find any.

+100

[joshvito]

+100

I posted 2 videos in post #93.

I'll post another later today.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[joshvito]

@Josie,
What is your reasoning against the drip system?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Discus-Hans]

Not you Josh, the PP guy

Hans

[rdiscus]

Just curious………Can we see photos of some of your Discus because I can't seem to find any.
………Josie

From post #93


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRyCoKNVmkc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[rdiscus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnFap4sZ9g0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[joshvito]

here is a video from today.

http://youtu.be/4GMjk8z_oUw

[Chicago Discus]

I posted 2 videos in post #93.

I'll post another later today.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


no Josh not you i was asking PP_GBR to post some photos of his Discus......josie

[joshvito]

Update from last week through today.

The time from my posts/observations on 11/06/13 through 11/10/13, the fish were showing no improvement.

On Monday 11/11/13, the blue turqs were not even eating FDBW or Frozen Bloodworms. Previous to this thread, these foods were attacked with great enthusiasm.
So after my daily water change, I decided to dose with KanaPlex (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/KanaPlex.html) and Metronidazole.
My reasoning for using the KanaPlex, was because the fish were not eating anything, and KanaPlex is absorbed through the skin. I added the Metro, because they are relatively 'safe' to dose together and was worried that the previous 5 day treatment a couple weeks earlier was not long enough to rule out parasites.

Both meds were dosed in the amounts on the packaging, every 48hrs after a 90% WC on Monday(11/11), Wednesday(11/13), and Friday(11/15). No water changes were performed on Tuesday and Thursday.

The fish look less stressed today, and seem to be eating the flake and worms of their usual diets.
I posted a video after their usual water change last night.

http://youtu.be/25x4r1E2QGI

Unless there is a sudden change for the terrible, I will continue with my daily WC and feeding routine, and hope what ever affected the group has passed. I didn't notice any night/day changes with the medication application but more of a slow recovery over the course of a week. Thank you all again for your help and suggestions. I'll continue to keep this thread updated as I notice improvements or the opposite.

[joshvito]

Fish seem to be 'better'. They are actively eating again, and I haven't noticed any erratic swimming.

I finally got around to painting the back side of a few tanks last weekend. The fish seem to enjoy the added comfort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JKB6F_b18o

I would like to eventually place these fish(blue turqs) in my display tank with a few other adults. The fish are now ~1.5yrs old.

[joshvito]

Fish are completely recovered and eating as expected. I may try introducing the blue turqs into my 75 display tank soon.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/27/syhavyve.jpg