Holes forming all over fish

[-gb-]

Problem:

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
This problem started about 3 weeks ago. I've been maintaining a very regimented clean water schedule but it's only getting worse.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Holes forming a over fish. Similar to HITH but all over. As well as fin rot. See pics:
1) http://i.imgur.com/cubYIdCl.jpg
2) http://i.imgur.com/gB0lkN0l.png
3) http://i.imgur.com/Lsq9mEJl.png

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
No meds yet.

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
65 gallon
water turnover is about 2.5x an hour (about 165gph)
UV = yes
CO2 = yes
4 adult discus - all of them are affected.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
75% every Saturday. 50% on Mondays & Wednesdays.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
The tank has been running for years. It is bare bottom with a few potted plants.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Water is RO aged in 65 gallon drum. I add Seachem Alkaline and Acid buffer along with Seachem Equilibrium.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp: 30 Celsius

- ph: 6.95

- ammonia reading: 0

- nitrite reading: 0

- nitrate reading: 5ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- RO water = 100%

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
-NO

Thanks in advance for you help. I've been keeping discus for a long time but I'm at the end of my rope and don't know what do to.

[Skip]

have you been running this tank this same way for all these years..
CO2 for few potted plants?
100% RO with seachem buffers?

it looks like the water is affecting them.. thats what stands out to me..

[-gb-]

Thanks Skip, I the RO is a new addition and the problem started when I added 100% RO. So yes you may be correct it may be a water issue. Should I repost this in the Water Woks section?

[Skip]

I see..
Maybe going back to tap water would fix this right up..
Its like water is melting them..

leaving here should be ok.. they are still not well..

[-gb-]

Thanks Skip, my tapwater had very high Nitrates, Nitrites and ammonia... so I can't use it.

I'm going to repost in the water Works Section. I'll post a link here when I do.

[DLock3d]

100% RO removes a lot of minerals from the water and can lead to HITH from my experience.

[Skip]

Thanks Skip, my tapwater had very high Nitrates, Nitrites and ammonia... so I can't use it.

I'm going to repost in the water Works Section. I'll post a link here when I do.

ask mod to move it..

what filter/filters are you using

[-gb-]

I am using a canaster filter with BioStars and Seachem's Purigen:
http://i.imgur.com/cwY7OUzs.jpg

I also have a K1 media filter in the tank:
http://i.imgur.com/ILUhuaas.jpg?1

[Second Hand Pat]

gb, can you measure your GH?

[-gb-]

gb, can you measure your GH?

Hi Pat, I do not currently have a tester for GH. I could run to my LPS and pick one up.

[lipadj46]

Maybe add some crushed coral to your filter to up the KH and GH. I keep a bag of crushed coral in my tank as the GH and KH of my tap water is almost 0. I would think you want a GH of at least 2-4 and a KH of 2-3.

[Second Hand Pat]

gb, this could be useful for helping to determine the level of minerals in the water and here in the states it is pretty cheap. Also do you have a TDS/EC meter?

[-gb-]

I do have a TDS meter.

My OR water is 5ppm
after I add all my chemicals the tank is 200ppm

I will go and get a GH test kit on my lunch.

[Skip]

Check lfs near you. They usually have big test kit.. that test this.. well at least the one I go to does..

What if he went 50/50 ro n tap

[-gb-]

Check lfs near you. They usually have big test kit.. that test this.. well at least the one I go to does..

What if he went 50/50 ro n tap

I tried going 50/50 and then 25/75. In both mixes my Nitrates, Nitrites and Ammonia were still to high. If I recall correctly they were:
Ammonia reading = .25 - .50 ppm
Nitrite reading = .25 - .50 ppm
Nitrate = 10 - 15ppm

[NAB]

What if he went 50/50 ro n tap

I'm no expert by any means but I do know that most people I've talked to say you only use a mix of RO and tap...about 50/50 as Skip mentioned. Otherwise you might be taking too much out of the water.

Just as many have said that RO/DI water is not good for humans...as too much stuff gets stripped out.

[Skip]

what water conditioner are you using?

.25ppm can usually be attributed to a false positive reading on the test from using Prime/Safe.. also. as long as you are using prime or safe. the ammonia is not toxic, once water conditioner is added..
bio filter will knock it out..

additionally.. were your fish ok.. when you mixed ro/tap?

[Second Hand Pat]

gb, I also think adding all this "Seachem Alkaline, Acid buffer, Seachem Equilibrium" is hurting you too. You may only need the Seachem Equilibrium to remin the water.

[-gb-]

what water conditioner are you using?

.25ppm can usually be attributed to a false positive reading on the test from using Prime/Safe.. also. as long as you are using prime or safe. the ammonia is not toxic, once water conditioner is added..
bio filter will knock it out..

additionally.. were your fish ok.. when you mixed ro/tap?

Long story short... the fish were not healthy when I was using the ro/tap mix. I started using 100% RO (with chemicals added) and they started doing better and then my current problem started.

I am using a Seachem test kit that measures the 2 different kinds of ammonia so I am confident the test is accurate. Good questions though.

I am using Prime.

[-gb-]

I'm off to get a KH & GH test kit. I'll report back.

[-gb-]

I've been reading this thread that was recommended by PP_GBR : http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?107203-Holy-Soft-Water-pH-crash
So I'm also going to pick up some crushed corral form the LFS so I can stop using the Seachem Alkaline, Acid buffer.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Follow these instructions for a more stable water enviornment.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?103814-DIY-Remineralization-for-RO-Water&highlight=

You might not be mixing the same and it is causing your water parameters to be all over the place (hence, hurting your fish). Use a holding barrel, then mix the above info, then add to water. You need balance.

[-gb-]

Follow these instructions for a more stable water enviornment.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?103814-DIY-Remineralization-for-RO-Water&highlight=

You might not be mixing the same and it is causing your water parameters to be all over the place (hence, hurting your fish). Use a holding barrel, then mix the above info, then add to water. You need balance.

Thanks Jeff, I'm going to look into this but as I live in Canada it may take some time to find these chemicals. Your recommendation may be a good long term solution but I'll need to find a solution before I do more damage to my fish. Thanks!

[Second Hand Pat]

gb, how do you feel about just adding the Seachem Equilibrium without the buffers?

[-gb-]

I got a GH & KH test kit.

GH in tank with additives = 89.5
KH in tank with additives = 53.7

[-gb-]

gb, how do you feel about just adding the Seachem Equilibrium without the buffers?

I think this is a very good idea.

I can add crushed coral to my canaster to give me a stable PH.

[NAB]

Sorry if this is off base but what about peat? or Catappa leaves?

[-gb-]

Sorry if this is off base but what about peat? or Catappa leaves?

Thanks for the input NAB. The peat or Catappa leaves will decrease the PH. I'm looking to stabilize the ph at 7.

[lipadj46]

I got a GH & KH test kit.

GH in tank with additives = 89.5
KH in tank with additives = 53.7

That is a decent GH (~5 degrees) and KH (~3 degrees).

[nc0gnet0]

does your ph fluctuate now? I have kept breeding pairs in low tds water for months and never had this issue, now so sure it is just "the water". Although I do admit I am confused about the addition of both an alkaline and an acidic buffer...this seems odd to me. Why not just use RO right and some trace elements (maybe that is what equilibrium is?).

[lipadj46]

Equilibrium is a GH booster it should be fine along with the alkaline buffer which is essentially baking soda guess you could add a trace mix also.

[nc0gnet0]

What is the reason for the 100% ro, does he have bad tap?

[joanstone]

I believe he said his tap has high ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so he's trying RO.

[-gb-]

I believe he said his tap has high ammonia, nitrites and nitrates so he's trying RO.

yes, this is correct.

[SMB2]

Looking at this from another angle, why mess with RO unless you want to breed your fish? Why not fix the tap water problem? I quickly went back over the posts and I can't find what your water source is; well water or municipal?
Either way the source of contamination should be addressed, you are drinking that water. There are water filters that address nitrates and ammonia, for the home and you can call the water source and see what gives.
Have you ever aged ~five gallons of your tap for 24 hours and measured the parameters?
I would address the source and in the long run you will have much easier water changes.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Looking at this from another angle, why mess with RO unless you want to breed your fish? Why not fix the tap water problem? I quickly went back over the posts and I can't find what your water source is; well water or municipal?
Either way the source of contamination should be addressed, you are drinking that water. There are water filters that address nitrates and ammonia, for the home and you can call the water source and see what gives.
Have you ever aged ~five gallons of your tap for 24 hours and measured the parameters?
I would address the source and in the long run you will have much easier water changes.

+1

-Victoria

[-gb-]

Looking at this from another angle, why mess with RO unless you want to breed your fish? Why not fix the tap water problem? I quickly went back over the posts and I can't find what your water source is; well water or municipal?
Either way the source of contamination should be addressed, you are drinking that water. There are water filters that address nitrates and ammonia, for the home and you can call the water source and see what gives.
Have you ever aged ~five gallons of your tap for 24 hours and measured the parameters?
I would address the source and in the long run you will have much easier water changes.

My water is Municipal - nothing I can do to fix it on there end. The city thinks it's fine. I don't drink it. I don't want to go off topic here but IMO water filters do not address nitrates and ammonia only an RO system does. But like I said... I don't want to get into that discussion :)

[nc0gnet0]

Gb, what do you get if you run enough of your RO waste water back into your ro water to boost your tds up in the 80-100 ppm range? Doing this would negate the need for all those chemicals, but I am not sure it what the ammonia and nitrates would be. Althugh I dont have the issues with ammonia and niitrates with my municipal water, it is like liquid rock where I live, and as a result I am an RO power user with the capacity now to make 1200 gallons of ro a day.

What I do is to place a "t" on the ro waste water output line, insert another line into this "t". Take that line and then install a valve (this will be to adjust the flow allowed to go into that line, the other water will simply go to where you ro waste water now go's. From the other side of that vavle run it into a carbon block and then into your ro storage. You will have to play around a bit with the valve to get your tds dialed in, but when you do, it's alot better then all them dam chemicals your using. The kicker is, I don't know what the ammonia levels of the resultant product water will be, but I am guessing they will be barely detectable. give it a shot, the most your going to be out is a few bucks for the parts.

[-gb-]

Gb, what do you get if you run enough of your RO waste water back into your ro water to boost your tds up in the 80-100 ppm range? Doing this would negate the need for all those chemicals, but I am not sure it what the ammonia and nitrates would be. Althugh I dont have the issues with ammonia and niitrates with my municipal water, it is like liquid rock where I live, and as a result I am an RO power user with the capacity now to make 1200 gallons of ro a day.

What I do is to place a "t" on the ro waste water output line, insert another line into this "t". Take that line and then install a valve (this will be to adjust the flow allowed to go into that line, the other water will simply go to where you ro waste water now go's. From the other side of that vavle run it into a carbon block and then into your ro storage. You will have to play around a bit with the valve to get your tds dialed in, but when you do, it's alot better then all them dam chemicals your using. The kicker is, I don't know what the ammonia levels of the resultant product water will be, but I am guessing they will be barely detectable. give it a shot, the most your going to be out is a few bucks for the parts.

Hello nc0gnet0, I have tried this but I put a T valve before the RO filter and fed that back into the holding tank. I fond to get the tds up to 80-100ppm my ammonia and nitrates were still to high. Maybe I'll give this another test and see what I can get. I'll report back.

[-gb-]

after test of mixed water at 100tds:

Nitrate: 3ppm
Nitrite: .20ppm
Free Ammonia: 0
Total Ammonia: .25

[nc0gnet0]

Dont pull the water from before your RO unit, pull it from the waste water out line. This water will have the added benefit of havng gone through a sediment and a carbon block filter, and additionally you should add a second carbon block filter to this line. It will also take less of this water (it will be higher in mineral content) to raise your tds up then it would just tap. This should cut the levels you know see in half. The nitrates are nothing to worry about, the ammonia is already negliable, would like to see the nitrites cut in half. Worse case scenario, just treat with safe and you should be good to go, but set things up the way I suggest and toss your chemicals in the trash. the only thing I might add after that is some discus trace elements, and even that probably isn't neccesary.

http://www.bigalspets.com/discus-trace-liquid-500-ml.html?utm_source=Google+Products&utm_campaign=Google+Products+Datafeed&utm_medium=Comparison+Shopping&gclid=CKLm4_fQv7oCFYZaMgod9ykA3w

[-gb-]

Dont pull the water from before your RO unit, pull it from the waste water out line. This water will have the added benefit of havng gone through a sediment and a carbon block filter, and additionally you should add a second carbon block filter to this line. It will also take less of this water (it will be higher in mineral content) to raise your tds up then it would just tap. This should cut the levels you know see in half. The nitrates are nothing to worry about, the ammonia is already negliable, would like to see the nitrites cut in half. Worse case scenario, just treat with safe and you should be good to go, but set things up the way I suggest and toss your chemicals in the trash. the only thing I might add after that is some discus trace elements, and even that probably isn't neccesary.

http://www.bigalspets.com/discus-trace-liquid-500-ml.html?utm_source=Google+Products&utm_campaign=Google+Products+Datafeed&utm_medium=Comparison+Shopping&gclid=CKLm4_fQv7oCFYZaMgod9ykA3w

Hello nc0gnet0, I've set the line up as you recommended and the tank is being filled with a mix. One issue... before when my storage tank was full a shutoff valve would turn off the water. As it is now, after the storage tank is full of water the RO line backs up and flows out the wast water line. I'll need to find a way to stop this from happening.

Following are my new test results with 100tds:

Nitrate: 5ppm +
Nitrite: .25 - 50ppm
Ammonia: .30ppm

[nc0gnet0]

Don't submerge the waste water line in the barrel, keep it above the water line. Have you added a second carbon block to the waste water that your running into your storage tank? What test kit are you using? Are you using strips?

[-gb-]

Don't submerge the waste water line in the barrel, keep it above the water line. Have you added a second carbon block to the waste water that your running into your storage tank? What test kit are you using? Are you using strips?

Won't running all the wast water through a second carbon filter put to much back pressure on the RO unit?

I'm using an API liquid test kit for everything but ammonia. For ammonia I'm using a Seachem test kit.

Thanks!

[nc0gnet0]

ahh, that was the whole purpose of the "t" and the valve, if your just run the waste water line without a "t" into a carbon block, then yes it would.

[nc0gnet0]

I really am starting to think this is either user error with the test kit and or a bad test kit. What is the reading of your tap water unfiltered? tds, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Whats not making any sense to me is that no matter how much tap and or waste water you add to your RO water, your readings seem to be the same. if you add 25% tap your ammonia reading should be half of that as if you added 50% tap. What were your readings again with 100% ro?

[-gb-]

My tap readings:
163tds
Ammonia over .25 ppm
Nitrite over 0.25ppm
Nitrate just under 10 ppm

After RO:
5tds
Amonia very close to 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm

nc0gnet0, I'm coming to the conclusion that mixing the water is not the correct course of action in my case. Thanks for the help. I do really appreciate the time you spent helping me. Thanks again!

[nc0gnet0]

My tap readings:
163tds
Ammonia over .25 ppm
Nitrite over 0.25ppm
Nitrate just under 10 ppm

I tried going 50/50 and then 25/75. In both mixes my Nitrates, Nitrites and Ammonia were still to high. If I recall correctly they were:
Ammonia reading = .25 - .50 ppm
Nitrite reading = .25 - .50 ppm
Nitrate = 10 - 15ppm

I am trying to understand how mixing 25% tap to a water with o nitrates, 0 nitrites, and 0 ammonia, can bring the levels to at or above 100% tap. This defies common logic and points to the accuracy of the test kit. A 25% tap/RO mix should only bring the levels to 1/4 of 100% tap. Using ro waste water to accomplish the same thing should even slightly lower levels (add less, activated carbon, etc). Your levels, even as you posted them (and have yet to add the second carbon block) should be fine at any rate, just dose your water change water with prime/safe, and your biofiltration in the tank would handle the slightly elevated levels in no time. This would still be a far better alternative to your current chemical soup your using now. You can add a cycled sponge filter to your water change barrel as well if you like.

When is the last time you changed your carbon block and sediment filter?

[-gb-]

nc0gnet0 - I agree. The test's that I'm seeing make no sense. I'm go and pick up a Salifert Nitrate test kit to replace my API kit. My LFS does not have them in stock so it will be tomorrow before I can get one in the mail. I'll retest then and report back.

[-gb-]

ok - I picked up a Salifert Nitrate test kit. My readings for my RO water:

Nitrate = 2 - 2.5
Free Ammonia = 0
Total Ammonia = 2.0-2.5

So where I thought my readings were zero they were not. The Nitrate that is in my RO water was the reason my readings were off. So the question is... shouldn't my RO water have 0 nitrates?

[-gb-]

I should also say that I am not using the buffers anymore. I added crushed coral to my canaster filter and that is holding my HK at a solid 3. PH is sitting happily at 6.90.

All I'm currently adding to the tank is:
Seachem Equilibrium (in the holding tank to bring the TDS up to 50ppm)
Discus Trace (in tank)
Prime (in tank)

[Chicago Discus]

Ok I read the thread and here are my thoughts. What I would do is get a carbon, sediment filter for your tap water source to filter out the unwanted crap in the water. I think that would eliminate all the unnecessary use of RO and chemicals to adjust the water. As far as the fish goes it looks to me that it has a bacterial infection with that said I believe if you take care of the water issue the health of the fish will improve…….Josie

[-gb-]

Ok I read the thread and here are my thoughts. What I would do is get a carbon, sediment filter for your tap water source to filter out the unwanted crap in the water. I think that would eliminate all the unnecessary use of RO and chemicals to adjust the water. As far as the fish goes it looks to me that it has a bacterial infection with that said I believe if you take care of the water issue the health of the fish will improve…….Josie

Good to hear from you Josie and thanks for reading through the thread!

My Nitrate reading is just over 15ppm after the 3 water filters (1 sediment and 2 carbon) but before the RO.

I thought that this was to high so I added the RO.

Thoughts?

[nc0gnet0]

When is the last time you changed the sediment, carbon blocks, and the RO membrane?

[Chicago Discus]

Good to hear from you Josie and thanks for reading through the thread!

My Nitrate reading is just over 15ppm after the 3 water filters (1 sediment and 2 carbon) but before the RO.

I thought that this was to high so I added the RO.

Thoughts?

Thats strange that your getting those readings from your tap after the three stage filter. Its very weird to get those readings in tap water because of the publics health. Hummmmm I would contact the local water supply source in Toronto and see what that have to say about the issue your having. There should be a lab that monitors the water supply for the city thats where I would start…..Josie

[-gb-]

When is the last time you changed the sediment, carbon blocks, and the RO membrane?

The filters are 3 weeks old and the RO membrane is 7 months.

[nc0gnet0]

The Salifert test did not include the nitrite test, and that is the one that concerns me the most. Seven months is getting up there a bit on ro membrane life, what is the tds of your RO water again?

Ammonia in tap is usually a product of the water company using chloramine, is this the case? What is the source of your water compnaies water?

[-gb-]

The TDS of my RO water is 5ppm
Yes, there is high concentration of chloramine in my tap water due to my close proximity to the municipal water treatment station. I have a filter that specifically removes chloramines.

[-gb-]

Thats strange that your getting those readings from your tap after the three stage filter. Its very weird to get those readings in tap water because of the publics health. Hummmmm I would contact the local water supply source in Toronto and see what that have to say about the issue your having. There should be a lab that monitors the water supply for the city thats where I would start…..Josie

I'll look into getting my water tested from the city early next week. Good idea.

[SMB2]

Thats strange that your getting those readings from your tap after the three stage filter. Its very weird to get those readings in tap water because of the publics health. Hummmmm I would contact the local water supply source in Toronto and see what that have to say about the issue your having. There should be a lab that monitors the water supply for the city thats where I would start…..Josie
I tried to go there a few pages back, Josie. A good carbon whole house filter should give reasonable tap water. There are also filters specifically for nitrates. Without the RO the tank PH may be more in the mid 7s (depending on the area) but that should not be a problem unless he wants a specific PH for breeding.
It just seems to me GB is going through a lot of water manipulation that might be better addressed at the source and then WCs would be a whole lot easier and tank parameters perhaps steadier.
The response to the post was:


I don't want to go off topic here but IMO water filters do not address nitrates and ammonia only an RO system does. But like I said... I don't want to get into that discussion

[nc0gnet0]

http://www.filterwater.com/ps-159-7-large-nitrate-whole-house-water-filter.aspx

http://www.filterwater.com/ps-203-7-inline-nitrate-removal-water-filter.aspx

[Chicago Discus]

http://www.filterwater.com/ps-159-7-large-nitrate-whole-house-water-filter.aspx

http://www.filterwater.com/ps-203-7-inline-nitrate-removal-water-filter.aspx

+1

[-gb-]

nc0gnet0 makes a good point. We were forgetting my high NitrIte from earlier in my post. I retested tap water for NitrItes today and they are .50 - 1ppm.

I have contacted my city's water department but they only offer the service to test for led. (I already know I have led in my water and filter for that) They test for Nitrates and Nitrites and release that info in an annual report. From 2012 here are their findings:
http://i.imgur.com/x0HZmmTl.png
(1 ppm = 1 mg/L)

Long story short... nothing I can do to get the city to help. I'll keep on them but it will be a long fight that I'll probably loose.

My tap readings:
163tds
Ammonia over .25 ppm
Nitrite 0.50 - 1ppm (higher than my last test but somewhat consistent with what the city is saying is in their water)
Nitrate just under 10 ppm

So I'm back to finding the best way to use RO.

What I am currently doing:
I added 1 cup of crushed coral to my canaster filter to help naturally increase my KH. My KH is currently sitting at 4. I'm monitoring this.
I've added Seachem Equilibrium to my holding tank and have the GH holding at 6 in the fish tank.
The current PH in my tank is 6.90. If it goes any higher my c02 will kick in and bring it down.
I'm also adding Seachem Discus Essentials directly to the tank.
25% water changes every day. I'm not doing any more than this to help maintain stability.

Water in tank:
Total Ammonia under = .25 ppm
Free Ammonia = 0ppm
Nitrite = 0ppm
Nitrate = 3ppm
GH = 6 (a little high) slowly working on bringing this down by using less Equilibrium. The crushed coral may be pushing it up.
KH = 4

[OC Discus]

Seems like a filtration system could be set up to remove just the bad elements from the tap water without stripping everything. Filter media exists to remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Wouldn't something like Biochemzorb sold for Rena canisters work in in the drum or other container preparing the water before putting it in the tank? Or a combination of media like purigen, ammonia pads, etc.


Thanks Skip, I the RO is a new addition and the problem started when I added 100% RO. So yes you may be correct it may be a water issue. Should I repost this in the Water Woks section?

[OC Discus]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4205

Check out the above link. Nitrazorb is a rechargeable resin filter media that removes ammonia, nitrite and nitrate without removing trace elements. Can you set up a filter on your storage tank to filter the tap water before putting it in the aquarium?


Thanks Skip, my tapwater had very high Nitrates, Nitrites and ammonia... so I can't use it.

I'm going to repost in the water Works Section. I'll post a link here when I do.