Albinos and eye color

[OC Discus]

I have a couple of questions about albinism and eye color that are not readily answered in other places.

1. Are red eyes the norm for most strains of discus? My albino, pigeons, bd and turk have red eyes.

2. Are all snow white and blue diamond intermediate forms of albino, resulting in large % of albino offspring if crossed with true albino

3. Why does the snow white have white eyes?

4. Is the best way to obtain a large number of albino fry to cross a true albino with an albino intermediate (since true albinos have trouble breeding with each other)?

* Any other comments about albino crosses, eye color, bd and sw are welcome here

Thanks!

[rdiscus]

First you need to know about discus eye, where the eye ball, and where the eye ring
When talking about albino we're talking about the skin white and the eyes have a pink (eye ball)





1. Are red eyes the norm for most strains of discus? My albino, pigeons, bd and turk have red eyes.

albino has red eye balls, and pigeon, bd, turk ... have red eye rings (This doesn't apply to all bd, pigeon, turk ... )





2. Are all snow white and blue diamond intermediate forms of albino, resulting in large % of albino
No, since snow white is non-albino, so when you cross non-albino with intermediate you will get all non-albino





3. Why does the snow white have white eyes?

No snow white is non albino, so it has black eye (eye ball) and white eye ring





4. Is the best way to obtain a large number of albino fry to cross a true albino with an albino intermediate (since true albinos have trouble breeding with each other)?

albino with an intermediate, you will get 50% albino

[OC Discus]

Thanks Ryan.

Is blue diamond albino intermediate?

[Tazalanche]

For a little clarification to Ryan's post:
"eye ball" = pupil
"eye ring" = iris

[OC Discus]

First you need to know about discus eye, where the eye ball, and where the eye ring
When talking about albino we're talking about the skin white and the eyes have a pink (eye ball)

Ok. Mine all have black "pupil" eye ball and red ring except snow white.

My Albino gold yellow also has black eyeball "pupil" and red ring. Does that mean it is an albino intermediate?

80716

[Tazalanche]

If a discus does not have a pink pupil, it is not an albino.

Without knowing its lineage, I can't confirm or deny an albino intermediate.

Do a search on here for albinism & you'll find a lot of good info about genetics involving albino discus.

[rdiscus]

The one in your picture is albino gold, he has red(pink) eye ball not black ... he/she is not intermediate, intermediate discus look the same as non-albino

[OC Discus]

Thanks David. I need to check with the supplier and confirm its lineage. It was sold as "Albino Gold Yellow".

[OC Discus]

Ryan,

Thanks, but looking at him the pupil looks black to me, not pink. Is the pink and black so close that it is hard to distinguish?


The one in your picture is albino gold, he has red(pink) eye ball not black ... he/she is not intermediate, intermediate discus look the same as non-albino

[rdiscus]

No that's not black pupil




This is black pupil
http://www.aprilsaquarium.com/263%20(Small).JPG

[OC Discus]

80717
80718

I hope these pictures are better. I apologize, but I want to confirm if I have an intermediate albino or a full albino. The pupils are definitely not pink. If they are red it is so dark it looks black.

[OC Discus]

What do you think of these pictures Ryan? It is supposed to be a true albino.

The top picture is from the website where I ordered the fish. The bottom picture is my fish.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, the pupils just look black. The rings seem pinker than my other fish though.

I hope it is true albino, since I should get more albino offspring if it ever breeds.

[rdiscus]

Yes ... it's true albino

[Larry Bugg]

You cannot tell if a discus is a albino intermediate by the eye color. A albino intermediate will look just like a non albino in every aspect.

[rdiscus]

You cannot tell if a discus is a albino intermediate by the eye color. A albino intermediate will look just like a non albino in every aspect.
True


They're my albino, look like your OC Discus
http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/7074/p10163_c3ffc760af.jpg

[OC Discus]

If a true albino's eyes look just like every other fish, how can you distinguish them? Im sure Im missing something, but I don't know what it is. The rings are red/pink but the pupils are black. Is it fair to say some albinos have much redder eyes than others?

Is it the solid yellow color of the fish, not just the eyes, that confirm it is absolute albino?




You cannot tell if a discus is a albino intermediate by the eye color. A albino intermediate will look just like a non albino in every aspect.

[OC Discus]

Those pupils look red. Mine don't?


True


They're my albino, look like your OC Discus
http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/7074/p10163_c3ffc760af.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

Shine a light into the pupil on yours.

-john

[rdiscus]

Don't confuse intermediate and albino

Intermediate if the offspring between albino and non-albino, they look normal like non-albino

There is no albino intermediate. non-albino, intermediate and albino ...

[rdiscus]

The rings are red/pink but the pupils are black. Is it fair to say some albinos have much redder eyes than others?


Yes ... not every albino eyes look the same, some has redder eye ball, some has redder eye ring

Do you see albino blue diamond, the eye ring don't look red at all

[OC Discus]

Hey John,

When shining a flashlight into the eyes, I can see a reddish color on the albino. Maybe since he is only 3" and has small eyes, his pupils are so small you just don't see the red/pink. That helps. Thanks.


Shine a light into the pupil on yours.

-john

[OC Discus]

Ryan, I really appreciate your help. I think since my fish is so small and has very small eyes the red is just not showing.

I've been considering obtaining a breeding pair of albinos like Kenny's Albino gold melon. Reading the threads on sd I've seen a lot of people having trouble getting a pair of true albino's to breed and raise fry (problem with fry attaching). I've also found that with one intermediate, you get 50% albinos and eliminate the attachment problem. I just wanted to confirm whether mine was true or intermediate.

Looking at Kenny's last shipment, the albino gold melons seem to have black eyes too. At least the red/pink is not noticeable. What would you say about those?


Yes ... not every albino eyes look the same, some has redder eye ball, some has redder eye ring

Do you see albino blue diamond, the eye ring don't look red at all

[OC Discus]

Here is a link to Kenny's last shipment of albino gold melon. The eyes look black. Is it also the solid color that confirms true albino because there is not a non-albino that color?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?110441-PREVIEW-NOV-2013-Forrest-shipment/page2

Here is a pic

80719

[nc0gnet0]

Here is a link to Kenny's last shipment of albino gold melon. The eyes look black.

They eyes appearing black is just a product of camera angle In person the pupils would be quite noticably red. As for your fish, based on your pictures I can't really say if it is an albino or not, like John said, take a small flashlight and shine in into the pupils.



Is it also the solid color that confirms true albino


Wrong again. Albinism's defining charasteristic is the inability to produce melanin, a dark pigmentation. Albino's can be found in almost ever pattern from solid to spotted to straited.

Is it also the solid color that confirms true albino because there is not a non-albino that color?


because there is not a non-albino that color?


There are plenty of non albino fish that color, your just not comprehending what the lack of dark pigementation (albinism) will do to a fish.

[Larry Bugg]

You also seem to be confusing Albino and Albino Intermediate. The Albino Intermediate is not a Albino. It only carries the albino gene.

[OC Discus]

You also seem to be confusing Albino and Albino Intermediate. The Albino Intermediate is not a Albino. It only carries the albino gene.

Bugman, I understand that an intermediate has one albino parent and one non-albino parent. Please explain what I'm missing on that.


They eyes appearing black is just a product of camera angle In person the pupils would be quite noticably red. As for your fish, based on your pictures I can't really say if it is an albino or not, like John said, take a small flashlight and shine in into the pupils.





Wrong again. Albinism's defining charasteristic is the inability to produce melanin, a dark pigmentation. Albino's can be found in almost ever pattern from solid to spotted to straited.

Is it also the solid color that confirms true albino because there is not a non-albino that color?




There are plenty of non albino fish that color, your just not comprehending what the lack of dark pigementation (albinism) will do to a fish.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I understand what pigmentation is: The vertical bars common in wild fish and the peppering common in pigeons. By "solid color", I am referring to the solid red without the pigmentation.

How would you distinguish an albino of a strain like blue diamond, that doesn't show pigmentation and having dark pupils if you didn't know the parents. Are their times you just can't tell by looking?

[Larry Bugg]

Bugman, I understand that an intermediate has one albino parent and one non-albino parent. Please explain what I'm missing on that.

The difference is that a albino has the loss of pigmentation that Rick is talking about and a intermediate albino does not. An intermediate albino blue diamond will look identical to a blue diamond (non albino). You cannot tell them apart. The Albino blue diamond looks completely different than both because of the loss of the pigmentation.

The lack of stress bars or peppering does not mean a discus is a albino. Many strains don't have stress bars...........blue diamond, red melon, San Merah, ect. The blue diamond does show pigmentation.

[Larry Bugg]

Here are images of Blue Diamonds
https://www.google.com/search?q=blue+diamond+discus&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fL6KUsSHIoiPkAeUnYHwBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=642

Here are images of Albino Blue Diamonds
https://www.google.com/search?q=blue+diamond+discus&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fL6KUsSHIoiPkAeUnYHwBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=642#q=albino+blue+diamond+discus&tbm=isch

You can clearly see the difference in the pictures. The albinos have lost that dark blue base color in the body. This is why they are sometimes called albino platinums.

[rdiscus]

Why do say eye look black on this fish, maybe your eye problem, not the fish :)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80719&d=1384818244

[OC Discus]

Ryan,

I apologize. The wrong picture was copied. What I meant was the "pupil" looks black. Probably the same problem as with mine, the light/angle of the picture is just not right to see the pink eyes. Some lighter colored albinos also seem to have "redder" pupils than others.

Here is the picture I meant to post:

[OC Discus]

Thanks Bugman,

I see the difference in the standard bd and the albino- the grey hugh in the body is missing in the albino.


Here are images of Blue Diamonds
https://www.google.com/search?q=blue+diamond+discus&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fL6KUsSHIoiPkAeUnYHwBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=642

Here are images of Albino Blue Diamonds
https://www.google.com/search?q=blue+diamond+discus&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fL6KUsSHIoiPkAeUnYHwBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=642#q=albino+blue+diamond+discus&tbm=isch

You can clearly see the difference in the pictures. The albinos have lost that dark blue base color in the body. This is why they are sometimes called albino platinums.

[OC Discus]

Thanks guys for all of the helpful information.

Am I correct in understanding that albino x albino = 100% albino fry. Albino x Intermediate Albino - 50% Albino fry. And Albino x Non-Albino - 25% albino fry?


Shine a light into the pupil on yours.

-john


Don't confuse intermediate and albino

Intermediate if the offspring between albino and non-albino, they look normal like non-albino

There is no albino intermediate. non-albino, intermediate and albino ...


They eyes appearing black is just a product of camera angle In person the pupils would be quite noticably red. As for your fish, based on your pictures I can't really say if it is an albino or not, like John said, take a small flashlight and shine in into the pupils.





Wrong again. Albinism's defining charasteristic is the inability to produce melanin, a dark pigmentation. Albino's can be found in almost ever pattern from solid to spotted to straited.

Is it also the solid color that confirms true albino because there is not a non-albino that color?




There are plenty of non albino fish that color, your just not comprehending what the lack of dark pigementation (albinism) will do to a fish.


You also seem to be confusing Albino and Albino Intermediate. The Albino Intermediate is not a Albino. It only carries the albino gene.

[rdiscus]

Thanks guys for all of the helpful information.

Am I correct in understanding that albino x albino = 100% albino fry. Albino x Intermediate Albino - 50% Albino fry. And Albino x Non-Albino - 25% albino fry?

No
Albino x Non-Albino = 100% Intermediate, no albino
Intermediate x Intermediate = 25% albino

[OC Discus]

No wonder we don't see a lot of albino fry. Are albino intermediate free of peppering? Albino x pb?

[rdiscus]

Are albino intermediate free of peppering? Albino x pb?

Only Albino are free of peppering
Intermediate: Yes/No peppering defends on what are you going to cross
Albino x pb: Yes/No

[OC Discus]

Thanks Ryan,

I need to get a copy of that chart that I keep seeing people refer to. Can you provide a link?

[rdiscus]

What chart? what the link you're talking about?

[OC Discus]

I've heard reference to some type of "square" that provides a way to predict the offspring of crossing various strains.

[Allwin]

If u have some good foster parents, then albino breeding would be manageable. But, i believe attachment should/can happen with Albino gold melon color pigmentation.


Ryan, I really appreciate your help. I think since my fish is so small and has very small eyes the red is just not showing.

I've been considering obtaining a breeding pair of albinos like Kenny's Albino gold melon. Reading the threads on sd I've seen a lot of people having trouble getting a pair of true albino's to breed and raise fry (problem with fry attaching). I've also found that with one intermediate, you get 50% albinos and eliminate the attachment problem. I just wanted to confirm whether mine was true or intermediate.

Looking at Kenny's last shipment, the albino gold melons seem to have black eyes too. At least the red/pink is not noticeable. What would you say about those?

[rdiscus]

This is my chart :)









Non-Albino
Intermediate
Albino





Non-Albino
100%N
25%I
100%I




Intermediate
25%I
25%A
50%A





Albino
100%I
50%A
100%A

[OC Discus]

Thanks Ryan.

Is it correct that Albino intermediates are free of peppering because they carry the albino gene?

For example: albino x pb = 100% I- or 100% no peppering?

Albino x Intermediate = 50% Albino + 50% Intermediate= 100% no peppering?

Or do Intermediates have pigmentation?


This is my chart :)









Non-Albino
Intermediate
Albino





Non-Albino
100%N
25%I
100%I




Intermediate
25%I
25%A
50%A





Albino
100%I
50%A
100%A

[rdiscus]

Look post #35

[OC Discus]

Post 35 says "Albino x pb: Yes/No"

What does that mean?

[rdiscus]

Defends on what your albino, if your albino pb, then albino pb x pb will get no peppering, otherwise you will get peppering, but can't tell how bad ...

[OC Discus]

Thanks again Ryan!


Defends on what your albino, if your albino pb, then albino pb x pb will get no peppering, otherwise you will get peppering, but can't tell how bad ...

[John_Nicholson]

Its called a Punnett square. Check out Gregor Mendel. He was kind of the father of this kind of stuff. About 2 hours of reading up on basic genetics will clear this up for you. Also check out albinos and their inherit problems. Even it you cross the albino with the intermediate you will not normally end up with 50% of both. The albino fry are normally weaker and you will lose a larger percentage of them. I would suggest getting an old fashion turq pair and use them to learn the ropes and them come back to albinos later.

-john

[OC Discus]

Thanks John. That is what I was referring to, just couldn't remember where I saw it. I'll put that in the search tool on SD and Google.

Are you selling fish to the public or just to stores? Haven't seen any posts for fish available. I'd like to see some of yours.




Its called a Punnett square. Check out Gregor Mendel. He was kind of the father of this kind of stuff. About 2 hours of reading up on basic genetics will clear this up for you. Also check out albinos and their inherit problems. Even it you cross the albino with the intermediate you will not normally end up with 50% of both. The albino fry are normally weaker and you will lose a larger percentage of them. I would suggest getting an old fashion turq pair and use them to learn the ropes and them come back to albinos later.

-john

[NAB]

If you took biology in high school the Punnet square might make you cringe. I remember Mendel was crossing strains of peas. We experimented with fruit flies to see eye color percentages.
It's funny how things have a way of coming back into your life and actually being useful, even if you found it boring in school.