Shaking Discus

[clusty]

Hey,

I came today from work, just to find one of my discus swimming in a strange pattern. It seems to be "pedalling" quite a bit with little effect. Giving it a mild scare seems to get it moving just fine even though when around the surface of the water it is swimming nearly head down.
Am I getting paranoid in suspecting bladder issues?

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ro0o12lojcnlk5v/mQxm8yuOo9
(It's the first marlboro red one)

C

[PP_GBR]

How often do you change water and clean the tank? All your discus are breathing very fast and it's not normal.

[clusty]

40% about 2-3 times a week. I doubt heavy breathing because of the CO2: ~2 bubbles/sec in a 80 gallon tank. Nitrate/Ammonia both rate 0. I don't own a test, but last month's nitrite was 0 as well.

[OC Discus]

You can't go by last months test if you want them to be healthy!! And they are breathing hard, regardless of whatever else is going on. The color on the bd seems darker than it should. You should probably do an immediate water change of 75% and get a test kit tomorrow. A dying plant can also cause all kinds of problems for the fish.

[Nick Klimkowski]

The fish are brathing hard, i would recomend doing daily water changes of 40 to 50%

[dirtyplants]

Something like this just happened to one of mine, acting as you have described, I added one tablespoon of epson per gallon, and did two water changes per day adding the epson after each water change. He was back to normal after 48 hours, still a little shy, but looking and acting good. Look from the front to see if you see a little fulness or bloat.

[clusty]

You can't go by last months test if you want them to be healthy!! And they are breathing hard, regardless of whatever else is going on. The color on the bd seems darker than it should. You should probably do an immediate water change of 75% and get a test kit tomorrow. A dying plant can also cause all kinds of problems for the fish.

This morning he was dead :(
Did a 75% water change. *** just happened? All fish were swimming at the surface this morning. I had lowered the water level as I found on a forum to help the guy swimming in circles and I placed the nozzle well under the water level. I am missing oxygen?

As for dying plants, I am recovering from an ich attack that chewed all my plants.
Only change that occurred in the last week, is I tried some dry ferts for the plants: I dosed 50% recommended anyways (MgSo4, K2So4, CSM+b). Could this have impacted ?

[Allwin]

Sorry for your loss. Planted tanks are challenging for discus unlike any other fishes. Unless you have complete control over your water chemistry/quality, my few cents.. Fill out the disease questionnaire which includes ammonia/nitrite/nitrate level.


This morning he was dead :(
Did a 75% water change. *** just happened? All fish were swimming at the surface this morning. I had lowered the water level as I found on a forum to help the guy swimming in circles and I placed the nozzle well under the water level. I am missing oxygen?

As for dying plants, I am recovering from an ich attack that chewed all my plants.
Only change that occurred in the last week, is I tried some dry ferts for the plants: I dosed 50% recommended anyways (MgSo4, K2So4, CSM+b). Could this have impacted ?

[clusty]

Sorry for your loss. Planted tanks are challenging for discus unlike any other fishes. Unless you have complete control over your water chemistry/quality, my few cents.. Fill out the disease questionnaire which includes ammonia/nitrite/nitrate level.

I sort of stopped testing for Ammonium and Nitrite ever since my aquarium got cycled last year. Since then I have always had 0 both.

Discus this morning after the water change: https://www.dropbox.com/s/29cxpus0kityn0s/2013-12-10%2008.21.18.mov
Breathing any better ?

[du3ce]

are u running co2 ? if so you might ve gassed your discus

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Clusty, raising young discus in a planted tank can be a tricky business. Young discus require very clean water and many feedings a day to grow properly and maintain their health. This is rather difficult in a planted tank with a heavy gravel bed. The gravel collect lots of food, poop etc over time and become a cesspool. You might consider reading the stickies in the beginner section and determine which is more important, the plants or the discus.

[dirtyplants]

I am recovering from an ich attack that chewed all my plants.
I am not sure I am reading this statement correctly. Ich does not chew on plants only affects the fish. If your plants were chewed up some how it indicates some fish nibbling on them or some nutrient imbalance in the tank. I do not recommend adding ferts, unless a water test is done to check absorption rate of your fert regiment. Plants take a long time to mature a good root system, so it is important to watch the ammonia cycle to nitrates. Where is your water coming from, if on a city system has there been a change in treatment with water, it is pretty cold here?
Looking at the video I would assume it eat something, they hang to the bottom and paddle like that with stomach issues, given this was sudden I would suspect stomach issues. I can not see his gills. But noting all your fish were near the top the next day and the one died, I am thinking you had maybe had a stomach thing going on with the one fish and then with the addition of ferts and lowering of the water you created less volume with less oxygen. The oxygen was used up by morning. If you replaced the water (a WC) then I would suspect ammonia from tap. How often do you fertilize? If you add on a regular schedule you need to watch the absorption rate of the plants. Your substrate is comprised of what? I am old school I set the tank up with soil sand and clay. You do not need to fertilize as much this way the soil slowly breaks down and supplies the nutrients. Over fertilization will kill your fish. Plants may like it especially if they don't have it in the substrate but fish can't handle it.
Did you just lower the water level for the fish which died? Did you replace the water? If you lowered the water and did not fill your tank then you decreased the volume and the oxygen.
Do you use co2? Co2 should only run during daylight hours, on at 2hours after lights on and off at 2hours before lights off.
How often do you do a WC in your tank?
How often do you fertilize?
Are any of your other fish showing symptoms?

[clusty]

Chew was a metaphor. Methilene blue does destroy plants. The discus were not exposed to any of it.
I did not dose any nitrate as you saw, and I thought that Ca Mg and K sulphates were harmless apart from a very small hardness increase. Water is coming from the city and temperature is around 0 up to -10 C so I guess it is colder than usual. . The substrate is Flourite sand and gravel. I lowered the water in the whole tank and just that. I replaced the water this morning . CO2 is about 1h before lights off and stays off the whole night.
WCs are 2-3 times a week about 40% I fertilize usually 3 days apart.

All fish seemed fine after I refilled the tank.


I am not sure I am reading this statement correctly. Ich does not chew on plants only affects the fish. If your plants were chewed up some how it indicates some fish nibbling on them or some nutrient imbalance in the tank. I do not recommend adding ferts, unless a water test is done to check absorption rate of your fert regiment. Plants take a long time to mature a good root system, so it is important to watch the ammonia cycle to nitrates. Where is your water coming from, if on a city system has there been a change in treatment with water, it is pretty cold here?
Looking at the video I would assume it eat something, they hang to the bottom and paddle like that with stomach issues, given this was sudden I would suspect stomach issues. I can not see his gills. But noting all your fish were near the top the next day and the one died, I am thinking you had maybe had a stomach thing going on with the one fish and then with the addition of ferts and lowering of the water you created less volume with less oxygen. The oxygen was used up by morning. If you replaced the water (a WC) then I would suspect ammonia from tap. How often do you fertilize? If you add on a regular schedule you need to watch the absorption rate of the plants. Your substrate is comprised of what? I am old school I set the tank up with soil sand and clay. You do not need to fertilize as much this way the soil slowly breaks down and supplies the nutrients. Over fertilization will kill your fish. Plants may like it especially if they don't have it in the substrate but fish can't handle it.
Did you just lower the water level for the fish which died? Did you replace the water? If you lowered the water and did not fill your tank then you decreased the volume and the oxygen.
Do you use co2? Co2 should only run during daylight hours, on at 2hours after lights on and off at 2hours before lights off.
How often do you do a WC in your tank?
How often do you fertilize?
Are any of your other fish showing symptoms?

[Allwin]

So whats the temperature of the tank?


Chew was a metaphor. Methilene blue does destroy plants. The discus were not exposed to any of it.
I did not dose any nitrate as you saw, and I thought that Ca Mg and K sulphates were harmless apart from a very small hardness increase. Water is coming from the city and temperature is around 0 up to -10 C so I guess it is colder than usual. . The substrate is Flourite sand and gravel. I lowered the water in the whole tank and just that. I replaced the water this morning . CO2 is about 1h before lights off and stays off the whole night.
WCs are 2-3 times a week about 40% I fertilize usually 3 days apart.

All fish seemed fine after I refilled the tank.

[clusty]

84f

[Allwin]

Thats good.. Do u have any empty 10g or 20g QT tanks/Bare bottom? so i would try separating them with aged water in it ..

84f

[clusty]

Thats good.. Do u have any empty 10g or 20g QT tanks/Bare bottom? so i would try separating them with aged water in it ..

Not really. Why would I separate them if they look fine for now ?
In a tiny tank 10 gal 8 discus will poison themselves to death.

[OC Discus]

Hey Clusty. So sorry for your loss. The fish actually looked better in the last picture- breathing better and not shimmying.

Lowering the water level, besides reducing oxygen, may have concentrated whatever bad chemical or parasite that was bothering your fish. I've only heard of that done with a breeding pair so fry can attach. Otherwise, with clean water, more is better and cleaner is better. How are the rest of the fish now? Still at the top?

Also, are you adding cold water to your tank? I think warm dechlorinated tap water would be better than cold aged water- less of a shock to the fish. Good luck.

[dirtyplants]

Chew was a metaphor. Methilene blue does destroy plants. The discus were not exposed to any of it.
I did not dose any nitrate as you saw, and I thought that Ca Mg and K sulphates were harmless apart from a very small hardness increase. Water is coming from the city and temperature is around 0 up to -10 C so I guess it is colder than usual. . The substrate is Flourite sand and gravel. I lowered the water in the whole tank and just that. I replaced the water this morning . CO2 is about 1h before lights off and stays off the whole night.
WCs are 2-3 times a week about 40% I fertilize usually 3 days apart.
So I am a bit confused, Methilene blue was added but the discus were not in the tank when they were added? If the discus were not in the tank why add the blue? Methilene blue will reduce oxygen. I would use blue for eggs or for ich treatment, if you use this stuff for ich treatment then the water temperatures should be lowered because it uses oxygen, or air stone placed in tank. I don't mean to sound critical I am just trying to understand the sequence of procedures done and whys.

[Allwin]

You know ur fishes better for sure :) How about their appetite? Since one fish died already which indicates something is not right with water and since the water parameters are kind of guessable and not very sure, I recommended to move the fishes to make sure of them to have just clean water. Just have a keen watch, good luck..

While u get a chance to get the test kit, take the readings of direct tap water as well.


Not really. Why would I separate them if they look fine for now ?
In a tiny tank 10 gal 8 discus will poison themselves to death.

[clusty]

Quite a bit better. I added tap water with conditioner directly in the tank.


Hey Clusty. So sorry for your loss. The fish actually looked better in the last picture- breathing better and not shimmying.

Lowering the water level, besides reducing oxygen, may have concentrated whatever bad chemical or parasite that was bothering your fish. I've only heard of that done with a breeding pair so fry can attach. Otherwise, with clean water, more is better and cleaner is better. How are the rest of the fish now? Still at the top?

Also, are you adding cold water to your tank? I think warm dechlorinated tap water would be better than cold aged water- less of a shock to the fish. Good luck.

[clusty]

Easy timeline: ich problem for 2 months starting sept. 2 weeks later discus from germany arrives. This was a response to a comment my plants looked ugly :)


So I am a bit confused, Methilene blue was added but the discus were not in the tank when they were added? If the discus were not in the tank why add the blue? Methilene blue will reduce oxygen. I would use blue for eggs or for ich treatment, if you use this stuff for ich treatment then the water temperatures should be lowered because it uses oxygen, or air stone placed in tank. I don't mean to sound critical I am just trying to understand the sequence of procedures done and whys.

[clusty]

So I learn something from this crappy experience:
are K2SO4, MgSo4 toxic ? (unless very high concentrations )
Do I have an Oxygen problem? Should run an airstone for the night?
What is a decent daily feeding regiment ?

2x good dry food
1x frozen brine shrimp+spirulina
a few times a week grindal worms. Do I feed any real veggies?

[OC Discus]

A good flake food probably has vitamins and maybe veggies like spiralina or kelp. You can read on the lable. They should get some veggies and vitamins daily. Some use a beefheart mix with veggies added. I use Omega One Kelp Pellets once daily. They have greens, vitamins, and whole salmon. Freeze dried blood worms once daily and freeze dried brine shrimp once daily. I also add a cube of frozen beef heart on water change days.

If the fish are small and still growing, you probably want to feed 4-6 times per day, small feedings and variety. Once they are fully grown you can cut back to twice per day.


So I learn something from this crappy experience:
are K2SO4, MgSo4 toxic ? (unless very high concentrations )
Do I have an Oxygen problem? Should run an airstone for the night?
What is a decent daily feeding regiment ?

2x good dry food
1x frozen brine shrimp+spirulina
a few times a week grindal worms. Do I feed any real veggies?

[dirtyplants]

Chew was a metaphor. Methilene blue does destroy plants. The discus were not exposed to any of it.
I did not dose any nitrate as you saw, and I thought that Ca Mg and K sulphates were harmless apart from a very small hardness increase. Water is coming from the city and temperature is around 0 up to -10 C so I guess it is colder than usual. . The substrate is Flourite sand and gravel. I lowered the water in the whole tank and just that. I replaced the water this morning . CO2 is about 1h before lights off and stays off the whole night.

If you have no recent tests how do you know what your water quality is?

[clusty]

If you have no recent tests how do you know what your water quality is?

Having tested for over 6 months every 2 weeks and having had 0 every single time leads me to believe I do way more water changes that needed and water quality is not that bad. I suspect I fed too many pellets and nearly choked my fish to death.

Which fertilizers are toxic in moderate quantities?
So far I can test just for Fe.
Btw, shouldn't K2NO3 register on the nitrate test ? Added a little bit of it to a NO3 but no colour changed.

[PP_GBR]

Clusty

You should invest in a test kit. There will be never enough water change. The more you feed, the more wc you should do. Have you ever observed the fish @ feedings, during and after wc.? Observe them for a day and let me know what you'd see.

[dirtyplants]

Next time or if ich returns try the temp up to near 90. Allow this temp for two weeks minimum. Get a QT tank to save grief and trouble in treating sick fish. Ich can not live long in those temps. And you also want to kill the eggs so continue with the high temps to prevent eggs from hatching.
Yes all frets can be deadly to fish in accumulative amounts. Make sure you ferts are organic safe for fish. Do not use the chemical ferts inorganic. If your plants were recovering then they will not process ferts in the same efficient way when they are healthy.
I am sorry to here someone said your plants look sick.

[clusty]

Not sure if the rest of my fish can take 90deg


Next time or if ich returns try the temp up to near 90. Allow this temp for two weeks minimum. Get a QT tank to save grief and trouble in treating sick fish. Ich can not live long in those temps. And you also want to kill the eggs so continue with the high temps to prevent eggs from hatching.
Yes all frets can be deadly to fish in accumulative amounts. Make sure you ferts are organic safe for fish. Do not use the chemical ferts inorganic. If your plants were recovering then they will not process ferts in the same efficient way when they are healthy.
I am sorry to here someone said your plants look sick.

[clusty]

I added yesterday for the first time blood worms.
Today I noticed one of the discus' poop looked like blood worms. Does it have diarrhea now ?

[OC Discus]

Are you sure its poop? Could it be the hull of a bloodworm?

[clusty]

Are you sure its poop? Could it be the hull of a bloodworm?

That's how it works? Fish poop the hull out?
They don't digest that as well ?

[OC Discus]

I'm not sure they poop out the hull, but they might spit out some hulls. I'm pretty sure I see them in my tank often. They are hollow, not solid and mucousy.


That's how it works? Fish poop the hull out?
They don't digest that as well ?