Pigeon Blood 'gene.' Non-mendelian?

[astrochick00]

Calling all experienced breeders and particularly those who want to talk genetics:

I've read a thousand times that PB is 'dominant.' So, in simple Mendelian terms, breeding two PB's will either produce all PB offspring (if at least one parent is homozygous) or a 75-25 split if both parent are heterozygotes. Even allowing for small sample size, my two PB are not producing a Mendelian ratio. Their oldest spawn, about 3 weeks old now, is 100% striated, and there are about 80 of them. Albeit, the striations are not pronounced and do not have an obvious deposition of black pigment.

So that begs the question: what IS the PB mutation? I assumed it was a gene regulating melanin production/expression, initially, and now I've read that there are such things as 'pigeon bloods with stress bars.' What is it that separates pigeons from non-pigeons if it's not the striation/stress bars? Do all discus have vertical stress 'marks' that are simply the separation between developmental sclerotomes (or myotomes, or whatever they are at this point)?

Thanks for any and all input!
Lindsay

[tomas_ch1]

Hello Lindsay,
it would help all to show picture of the pair and its offspring to have better reference...
You admit that striations are not pronounced and do not have an obvious deposition of black pigment and this is quite normal for PB. Even on young fry you can see different reflection of light in the areas of striations (bars) and later on, once the secondary color is developed, “bars” are less obvious or not visible at all. PB with realy lot of pepper can show bars partially. It shows us that pigment cells are somehow where they should be, but they do not express as usually. IN PB however, also expression of background color is impacted and striations may be just side effect (who knows..)
Gene regulating melanin production/expression is probably impacted in PB, but it is too wide description from genetic point of view. In zebra fish there are dozens of mutation described, which affects melanin or melanophores , but they are different genes impacting different part cells life or development and causing different results too.
Unfortunately, I have many working ideas to "what is PB mutation”, but no answer. As far as I know there is no exact description so far but may someone will now it better.
Looking forward to pictures
Tomas

[astrochick00]

Hi Tomas,
Thanks for your response. I am attaching four images: one is a week old, and it is of a fry that I thought was going to be the only 'true' pigeon blood of the group (but even it has vague vertical bars now), one I took on Saturday of a fry that is representative of the other 79 or so, one is mom-pigeon, the other is dad-pigeon. Dad is more peppered than Mom (almost none at all), and they are both at max peppering right now because they've been tending new eggs for 30hrs or so.
http://imageshack.us/a/img197/5892/5a81.JPG
http://imageshack.us/a/img41/1051/flmh.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/7893/6fz.JPG
http://imageshack.us/a/img822/8146/0j3v.jpg

[Keith Perkins]

This is a Rick or Rod question, but I can tell you it's not uncommon for young PBs to have bars. Depending on genetics, water quality, and good standard of care in general most grow out of it.

[nc0gnet0]

Their oldest spawn, about 3 weeks old now, is 100% striated, and there are about 80 of them. Albeit, the striations are not pronounced and do not have an obvious deposition of black pigment.

First of all, Striations and stress bars are two totally different things, I think your getting the two terms confused. Straitions refer to pattern in discuss which exhibit a horizontal striping of some sorts. Stress bars are vertical and most often either 9 bars or 14 bars.

With that in mind it is way to early to tell if your fish are going to be striated or not, judging by the parents some most likely will. What your seeing with the "stress bars" is completely normal in a pigeon bloods development, these gold like threads are indeed where the stress bars would be, but the fish has yet to begin to produce pigment (this will come later in developement). In the case of a non pb discus, melanin would fill in in these areas where you are seeing this gold like threads, and in the case of a pigeon blood, this melanin would either be scattered away from this "zone" (in the case of a a peppered discus) or absent all together (as in the case of a clean pb), or somewhere in between.

At any rate, it is way to early in the fish's development to start making guess's as to what the final outcome might be, but what your seeing is indeed quite consistant at this stage for the development of pigeon blood offspring.


-Rick

[nc0gnet0]

here is an example of a typical pigeon blood at six weeks:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b3-9-30-3.jpg

Here are some more examples mixed in with some non-pb siblings (this was the result of a heterozygous pb crossed with a non-pb). Notice the strong eyebars on the non pb offsrpring at this stage,

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b3-9-30-4.jpg

same pb offspring now at nine weeks:


http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/B3-10-21-5-1.jpg

ten weeks


http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-10-14-3.jpg

11 weeks (see how the bars or at least were they should be is slowly disapearing)

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-10-28-5.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-10-28-9.jpg


week 14

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-11-18-3.jpg?t=1353292238

Week 22

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-1-13-8.jpg?t=1358118379

week 32

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b2-3-24-8_zpscde7a82e.jpg


1 year

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b3-10-19-6_zps6059caf3.jpg?t=1382150551

A striated (horisontal pattern) Pigeon Blood discus

[astrochick00]

Awesome, Rick! Thanks so much. These are my first pigeons to breed, and, since it's often stressed that PB's can develop unwanted peppering in the areas where the vertical stress bars would be…..I was very concerned. Somewhere along the line I came to believe that pigeon blood = no vertical striations (sorry for this word, just better than 'striping' but I don't mean it in a thick line, vs thin line pattern sense), I was totally confused to see stripes on the kids.

Any developmental biologists out there? Is there a chance the 'stress bars' are originally the migration paths of neural crest cells?

[OC Discus]

Rick, what strain is the non pb parent? Why is there no peppering from this cross? Also, will the coloring fill in on the fish to the left in the last pic, or will it remain half solid? You did an awesome job by the way.

[nc0gnet0]

Albino Pearl Diamond is the non-pb parent. As to the no pepper question, ancient asian secret. ;)

The lack of or minimal pepper is due to a combination of selective culling as well as a few other factors when doing a non-pb to pb cross that are seldom discussed. Yes, there is a rule of thumb that will state that if you cross a pb and a non pb, the resultant fry will most likely be heavily peppered. However, there are exceptions to this rule, and a few other "tricks" that can be done to minimize this "rule of thumb".

[Allwin]

Just curious, any pictures of such offspring's and its parent?


However, there are exceptions to this rule, and a few other "tricks" that can be done to minimize this "rule of thumb".

[nc0gnet0]

Your looking at them?

[Allwin]

oh ok.. is that heterozygous pb is a intermediate? That's cross of pb and albino?

Your looking at them?

[nc0gnet0]

oh ok.. is that heterozygous pb is a intermediate? That's cross of pb and albino?

?

[nc0gnet0]

Pb Is a dominant gene, so the term "intermediate" would not really be aplicable.

[astrochick00]

So Rick…..about those alleged 'ancient asian tricks'
Should I be raising the fry in green tea, or what? :)

[OC Discus]

I think the albino mix w pb is one of the secrets. Selective culling another. And I think the water quality, tank location, tank mates, lighting, and other environmental factors also come into play.

Rick, your supposed to be sharing secrets, not keeping them :)

[nc0gnet0]

And I think the water quality, tank location, tank mates, lighting, and other environmental factors also come into play.

yes, but those factors are no secret, which pb to non pb cross to consider is.

[PP_GBR]

Wild guess? Lower pH?

[tomas_ch1]

Any developmental biologists out there? Is there a chance the 'stress bars' are originally the migration paths of neural crest cells?

Hello Lindsay,


Some scientist insight in to development of pigment cells from neural crest in Discus fish would interest me too. I am not a biologist, but I like that staff. At least we have Rick and Simply community !!

However my opinion is that discus bars (melanophores arranged in stress bars) are rather “final” stage of pigment cells migration not the channel itself. If you will focus on some macro picture of fry, you can see, that young larvae do not exhibit stress bar. You can Google around or search this forum or you may have look on this (Turkish) paper with well documented fry development.

http://www.fisheriessciences.com/tur/Journal/vol4/issue1/jfscom2010009.pdf

You can see that even several days post fertilization larvae exhibits melanophore scattered over the flank and body, no bars or signs of it. It would be really great if we would know more about discus pigment cells development from neural crest, especially if there is similar process of metamorphosis from larval to adult as described in some other species.

regards
Tomas

[nc0gnet0]

Choosing solid based fish and fish without stress bars will minimize pepper in these cross's. I do beleive that working with albino's, even when thier offspring is heterozygous does minimize pepper as well, although I can't prove it. Also, as you may have noted, I work alot with not only pb cross's but most often with cross's in which one of the parents has pb AND bd genes.

[OC Discus]

Rick,

How often do you sell your fish. Do you have buyers waiting, or do you post on sd?

[nc0gnet0]

Selling fish is one of the parts of the hobby I don't particularly care for, to be honest. I sell some locally mainly. My interest in the hobby is not driven by wanting to sell fish.

[astrochick00]

Yeah, yeah, yeah logical process and all, but we want the Asian Secrets!
The juicy stuff like feeding them MSM and feng shui.


*I need a disclaimer like Hans to let everyone know that I'm rarely being serious.

[OC Discus]

Have you ever crossed pb x snow white? bd? or albino gold yellow? The bd would probably have the most peppering. The sw or albino may be clean? Also, doesn't breeding 2 pb reduce peppering in the offspring? Fire Red x Blue Pigeon?


Choosing solid based fish and fish without stree bars will minimize pepper in these cross's. I do beleive that working with albino's, even when thier offspring is heterozygous does minimize pepper as well, although I can't prove it. Also, as you may have noted, I work alot with not only pb cross's but most often with cross's in which one of the parents has pb AND bd genes.

[nc0gnet0]

Yeah, yeah, yeah logical process and all, but we want the Asian Secrets!
The juicy stuff like feeding them MSM and feng shui.


Ahh, so you want to hear the part that has the conspiracies, pentagrams, and aliens then.........

[astrochick00]

I just KNEW it was going to be something like that!!!
Hang on while I fire up my holistic-crystal-energizer-rocks and hunt down a cloven-hoofed animal!

[Keith Perkins]

Don't forget to dig out the old mood ring too.

[astrochick00]

So, now that my fry are 6 weeks old, I've definitely figured out why I had so much confusion with the different phenotypes. The few that I supposed were the PB (due to lack of any stripey-ness) turned out to be albino. So I've got about 25% barred offspring, about 70% PB, and about 5% albino (which is close enough to Mendelian segregation as you're likely to get in a small sample size).
Here are some pics:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/199/oj7a.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/5joj7aj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/7/jbdv.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/07jbdvj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/14/jlqb.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/0ejlqbj)

[astrochick00]

And an albino:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/6/f181.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/06f181j)

[nc0gnet0]

1st pic appears to be pb, second pic there is a mix, see some browns in there, last pic, can't conclusively tell if it is albino or not, I am leaning no, why do you think it is?

-Rick

[astrochick00]

It was hard to get a picture of the albinos because they shy away when the camera flash comes on. They definitely have red pupils.
The two pigeon parents are evidently het's, but they are remarkably free of peppering.
Here's a cropped close up of an albino eyeball:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/703/vy1x.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/jjvy1xj)

[astrochick00]

A number of the less-stress barred ones have retained a bit of a dark line where bar 9 would be, right at the peduncle/caudal junction. Have you seen this before? The mixed up brown ones definitely have distinct bars over their eyes. Maybe I can find a pic:
This one doesn't have the tail bar:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/194/oyqa.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/5eoyqaj)
And this one does:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/580/x26x.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/g4x26xj)
Every seen this before, Rick? I'm not worried about it, just curious. They are healthy and growing, and some of them may turn out to be nice-enough fish.

[nc0gnet0]

This is not uncommon in both pb's and solids at an early age. Too early to tell if the pb's will be clean, pepper can come late as 9-10 months.