Please help

[krislewis3]

My blue diamond stopped eating several days ago. This morning I put epson salt in the tank and now I'm noticing this stringy slime coming from him.
Can some of you experienced people help me to identify it?http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-10.jpg

[GeauxDiscus]

I can't say that I for sure know the answer, but I just posted something very similar last night in the Disease/Sickness and Medication section. You may want to check out that post and see if it's the same thing. I think there are a few possibilities, but with my fish, I think it may be just undigested food due to overfeeding. I do know that a salt dip will relieve constipation, so perhaps you "unclogged" him. :D

[OC Discus]

More experienced members may disagree, but from the very limited information provided, I would wait 24 hours from adding the Epsom salt and do a big water change of 75% plus. The picture is not really clear. Also, can you complete the questionnaire in the disease section. This will help members more accurately diagnose and advise.

[wild4discus]

Pic isn't that clear. Is poop clearish/white and stringy? Have you added any new fish to your tank? How long have you had your BD for? If this is internal parasite (most commonly Hex), epsom salt won't do much do much of anything. Fill out disease questionaire to help us help you.

[krislewis3]

I've had this BD for almost 2 years! She has never been a heavy eater, (she is my smallest discus at only 5")
10 days ago, she stopped eating completely! I wondered if I had over fed, and she became constipated, which is why I treated with Epsom salt. I've not seen her poop at all since she started her hunger strike, so it's difficult to diagnose the problem. All the other fish are healthy and eating well.
I wondered if the stringy slime was intestinal lining from the epson salt treatment.

[krislewis3]

I can't say that I for sure know the answer, but I just posted something very similar last night in the Disease/Sickness and Medication section. You may want to check out that post and see if it's the same thing. I think there are a few possibilities, but with my fish, I think it may be just undigested food due to overfeeding. I do know that a salt dip will relieve constipation, so perhaps you "unclogged" him. :D



I saw your post from yesterday, and I don't think it's the same thing. The stringy slime comming from my bd is just like it looks in the photo, very thin, and wispy, and hard to see. It's interesting that about 1 month ago, I added 'frozen' beef hart to their normal diet of fd black worms, tetra bits, beef hart flake from kens fish, fd brine shrimp, and brine shrimp flake!

[Tazalanche]

I do know that a salt dip will relieve constipation, so perhaps you "unclogged" him. :DDosing the tank with epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) for constipation is totally different from performing a salt (sodium chloride) dip on a fish.

Difference between Epsom salt and regular salt (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25743-Difference-between-Epsom-salt-and-regular-salt)
How To Do a Salt Dip (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip)

[krislewis3]

How long should I observe this bd before I should try meds????

[Tazalanche]

Without more information, it is really hard to guess. Maybe filling out the questionnaire at the top of the page & adding it to this thread, plus a closer photo of the discharge will help uncover something that has been overlooked?

[wild4discus]

IMO, I would place this fish in QT asap. Since it has not eaten for ten days, something is definitely wrong internally. Most likely parasite or bacterial infection. The addition of frozen beef heart could possibly be the culprit. Have you added any new fish to your tank recently? While in QT, I would do %75 WCs daily, start dosing with Metro to treat for internal parasites. If no improvement after 5-7 days stop metro and treat for internal bacterial infection with erythromycin and tetracycline. These 2 meds can be used at the same and covers broad spectrum of gram positive and gram negative bacteria. If you can't get these 2 meds, triple sulfa also works well for bacterial infections. Good luck.

[Tazalanche]

While some of the suggestions might be exactly what is needed, please do not blindly throw meds at the fish until we have adequate information in order to provide a proper diagnosis.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[wild4discus]

I agree meds should not be used blindly. But this fish has not eaten for ten days and with each passing day the fish will continue to waste away and become weaker. Placing it in QT is an important first step. Metro is very safe when dosed correctly and I feel this is a good start. When we know exactly what the cause of the problem is, metro can be conitinued if the problem is for example Hex or stopped without I'll effect if the cause is something different. I use meds as a last resort. This discus appears to look normal externally. This is most likely an internal problem with the limited info provided. Just observing at this point is of no benefit to this fish. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't wait long to do something.

[Tazalanche]

While I agree with your suspicions with their discus, it takes less time to fill out the questionnaire and verify the issue for proper treatment than to QT and potentially follow the wrong treatment process.

[GeauxDiscus]

Dosing the tank with epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) for constipation is totally different from performing a salt (sodium chloride) dip on a fish.

Difference between Epsom salt and regular salt (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25743-Difference-between-Epsom-salt-and-regular-salt)
How To Do a Salt Dip (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip)

Good info. Thanks for the clarification.

[Tazalanche]

Good info. Thanks for the clarification.Happy to help. :D

[wild4discus]

While I agree with your suspicions with their discus, it takes less time to fill out the questionnaire and verify the issue for proper treatment than to QT and potentially follow the wrong treatment process.

I understand your point and was recommending what I would do in this situation. I don't think leaving this discus in the tank is a good idea until the problem is verified. If it is something contagious, it could spread to the other fish. QTing at least helps protect the other fish if they have't already contracted it and just not showing any symptoms yet. There is no harm in QTing this fish. Better to be safe than sorry. As far as use of meds for prophylaxis, many of us will have differing opinions.

[krislewis3]

This BD has been with her tank mates for close to two years!! If I need to medicate her, wouldn't I need to medicate the entire tank?

[OC Discus]

Kris,

The most knowledgeable members are holding back their advice until you complete the questionnaire. Is it just a matter of pride to not fill it out?

[krislewis3]

Disease Questionnaire - please complete
Please complete thus questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste). The more details you can provide, the better we are able to diagnose and help you treat your sick fish.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Stopped eating 10 days ago
I recently added frozen beef hart to the tank

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Somewhat listless

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Epson salt, 1 teaspoon per gallon, twice in 24 hours



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish
60 gallon...5 adult discus, 4 rams, 2 bn pleco, 2 Cory cats



5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Daily 50%

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank running for 2 years, thin sand substrate


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I don't age, and no ph swing


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __86___

- ph ___7__

- ammonia reading ___0_

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __5__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __yes__

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently

Added one Bolivian ram 2 months ago after qt 4 weeks



10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
Last edited by Second Hand Pat; 05-09-2013 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Added a little Toni/Pat magic

See photo at the beginning of the thread

[krislewis3]

Kris,

The most knowledgeable members are holding back their advice until you complete the questionnaire. Is it just a matter of pride to not fill it out?


It's more a matter of laziness..... LOL

btw, tell me about that beautiful yellow discus in your avatar !!!!

[PP_GBR]

10 days not eating + Epsom salt treatment and still not eating. Enough justification for Metro treatment. LOL

[OC Discus]

Kris, the avatar is not my fish. I have a solid yellow and got into a discussion where someone asked if anyone had ever seen a jumbo solid yellow. I found the pic online and liked it so much I use it. I think someone would have to use color enhancer to grow one out like that.

I hope your problem resolves soon.

Can you post a clearer close up of the bd. The stringy poop and the spots on the forehead. IME BD show marks, pores, and Hole in the Head more clearly than other strains.


It's more a matter of laziness..... LOL

btw, tell me about that beautiful yellow discus in your avatar !!!!

[krislewis3]

Can you post a clearer close up of the bd. The stringy poop and the spots on the forehead. IME BD show marks, pores, and Hole in the Head more clearly than other strains.

The stringy stuff looked exactly like the photo....barley visible, wispy, thread like! There are no other symptoms, no marks at all. She does seem a little listless, and at times she avoids the rest of the fish, especially during feeding!! Her color is good, her fins are up. And of course, even though she is my smallest discus, I've always liked her the best!! She has such a sweet disposition....I would hate to lose her!!!! (Do you guys think the addition of frieze beef hart could have caused the problem?)

[krislewis3]

10 days not eating + Epsom salt treatment and still not eating. Enough justification for Metro treatment. LOL

Are you thinking I should metro the entire tank?

[OC Discus]

Kris, you may have already posted, but what foods are you using and how long has the group been together in the tank? Looks like some spots on the face in the pic to me. HLLE does call for metro, but I'm no expert on medications.

You referred to the poop in past tense. Are you no longer seeing it? How many times did you see it?

[krislewis3]

Never saw poop...I guess because she's not eating. I only saw that stringy thing that one time, which is when I photo graft it. There are no spots at all on her, and she is normal except for the hunger strike! She has been with her tank mates for 2 years, with the exception of the one ram, which has been in the tank for 2 months, after a 4 week qt.

[OC Discus]

What are you feeding? Have you tried foods like frozen beef heart, blood worm, brine shrimp? These spread out all over the tank and are hard to resist.

If that was not poop, it could be a worm or a string of bacteria.

[OC Discus]

Some of us are just thinking out loud with you until someone who actually knows steps up. IME frozen beef heart can contain a lot of fat that is pooped out in a white gel like form. If you are not seeing anymore of it, maybe trying to entice the fish to eat some new food or favorite food. If the fish is acting normal other wise, has good color, fins erect, there may be no cause for alarm.

Could another fish be intimidating the bd? Try rearranging things a bit and see if it helps.


I saw your post from yesterday, and I don't think it's the same thing. The stringy slime comming from my bd is just like it looks in the photo, very thin, and wispy, and hard to see. It's interesting that about 1 month ago, I added 'frozen' beef hart to their normal diet of fd black worms, tetra bits, beef hart flake from kens fish, fd brine shrimp, and brine shrimp flake!

[DeMarco]

The problem with your fish is intestinal flagellates. We can debate the issue forever or go ahead and try and save her....choice is yours.
Some call it Hexamita, but in truth Hexamita is only one type of flagellate, and this can be it, or a different type. Not that it matters.
You need to treat the tank with metro. Increase temperature to 31°C & dose Metro at 7mg per litre of water. I prefer a 24-36hr cycle after which I change 50% of the water and redose the Metro.
In all honesty though - If its been like this for 2 weeks Im not too positive.
I find Metro to be less and less effective against this issue and fish that are severely infected rarely recover.
Holding thumbs for you though.

Rgds

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[dirtyplants]

I do not recommend throwing meds into the tank either unless you have a game plan. Pictures are not telling. QT him, add some immune foods and garlic for appetite. I had a fish who basically eat nothing from me for almost a month, it has been 4 months since and he is just beginning to get some heft back. He went into mating mode and just guarded the spawning site. Kept all the fish away and refused to eat.


QT him and see if you can get it to eat. If no signs of external parasites, you might consider bacteria infection, hard to determine if worms without poop.

[krislewis3]

I've began metro treatment, I'll keep you guys posted!!!

[krislewis3]

Ok guys, this is day 5 of metro treatment, and my bd is now eating!!! YES!!!!! She's still somewhat listless, and keeps to herself some of the time, she has definitely improved. Question......how many more days should I treat? I'm using 3/4 teaspoon daily in my 60 gallon tank!! Kris

[PP_GBR]

I'd treat for 10 days. And now she is eating, you need to observe her at every feeding and wc. If she is passing yellowish/greenish feces, then follow with antibiotic like Furan-2. I know other ppl prefer Kanamycin/oxytetra but Furan-2 had worked for my BDs.

You will catch her passing feces @ feedings or wcs. If you don't then you need to pull a chair and sit in front of the tank to do fish feces study. LOL

[krislewis3]

I'd treat for 10 days. And now she is eating, you need to observe her at every feeding and wc. If she is passing yellowish/greenish feces, then follow with antibiotic like Furan-2. I know other ppl prefer Kanamycin/oxytetra but Furan-2 had worked for my BDs.

You will catch her passing feces @ feedings or wcs. If you don't then you need to pull a chair and sit in front of the tank to do fish feces study. LOL



I can't believe that I can't catch her pooping, and I do spend hours watching.....I've been adding brine shrimp to her diet, which she loves, in the hope that it will help her.....we shall see!!!!!

[OC Discus]

Mine all have a poop party as soon as the lights come on in the morning. I wait an hour to feed while poo is flying everywhere. Start watching as soon as the lights come on and don't feed for about an hour. You'll probably see some action.


I can't believe that I can't catch her pooping, and I do spend hours watching.....I've been adding brine shrimp to her diet, which she loves, in the hope that it will help her.....we shall see!!!!!

[krislewis3]

Ok....thanks for the tip!

[simsavfc]

Hi.. I had the same problem with my blue Diamond a few months ago... turned out she had internal worms which caused stringy slime like poop... so I used kusuri wormer which not only kills worms but kills internal parasites and helminths which can be caused by the worms..... it even treats flukes at the same time added bonus.. anyway my fish was fine after the treatment and started to feed around four days later... maybe worth a try

[aalbina]

Great - looks like the fish is on the mend. While I don't disagree with the metro treatment, as it is fairly easy on the fish, just remember that metro is an antibiotic that also happens to kill intestinal flagellates (that is what is most widely used for). So you really don't know what was wrong with your fish - just that metro got whatever it was a bit more under control. It could have been bacterial.

If it was an internal flagellate - it may very well come back. I've treated fish, after scoping and positively confirming a flagellate infestation, with 500mg/10g of metro for 10 days, followed by a 10 break, followed by 10 more days... 2 months later they were back. I see symptoms in the weakest fish and find them at different concentrations on slides of all fish feces (samples captured before they hit the bottom). Last round I used a different med which has a higher mortality rate on fish as a last resort - and haven't had an issue since - going on almost a year (fingers crossed.)

No-one can diagnose an intestinal flagellate with certainty (certainly not down to the species of Hexamita) without out microscope and a lot of knowledge. I provided video images to PHd biologist at the school where I work and 1000x wasn't enough to id the species. Doing so here based on the information given is really just irresponsible.

Adam

[krislewis3]

I used lavamocele successfully, to treat a fish for round worms. I was able to diagnose, using a microscope on the fecal matter, and viewing the eggs!!!
Adam, when looking for a flagellate infestation, what do you look for? The living parasite?

[Skip]

I used lavamocele successfully, to treat a fish for round worms. I was able to diagnose, using a microscope on the fecal matter, and viewing the eggs!!!
Adam, when looking for a flagellate infestation, what do you look for? The living parasite?

the Dr. at NADA 2012 Austin.. from university of florida from a department that study fish illness..

she made a statement about flagellates and worms..

in all their studies.. when they found worms.. flagellates were present..

other times.. it was just flagellates..

but it was NEVER just worms alone.. so if you found worms.. treat for flagellates

[aalbina]

I'm looking for the live protozoan moving around in the field. I have no idea what flagellate eggs look like nor have I found anything on the Internet nor scientific journals that show eggs. I imagine they would be far too small to see and identify at even 1000x. Here's a couple of videos of an infestation I worked through. http://youtu.be/mLohG_3DSqc and http://youtu.be/4emANAkwmis. In order to positively identify the species as Hexamita, Spironucleous or Cryptobia you have to be able to count the flagellates themselves both front and back. At 1000x a live flagellate is moving to fast to isolate for that identifcation - if I get them again I have a protozoan expert willing to do the identification from a sample in his lab. He actually has protozoans named after him. I suppose if your a biologist that's a big deal.

According to the University of Florida Extension, a few of these protozoans in the gut of fish is common. When environmental factors weaken the immune system - that's when these things reproduce unchecked and cause major issues. http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/0/02/Management_of_hexamita_in_ornamental_cichlids.pdf

I had success with a different product that isn't well documented in it's usage and has a higher mortality rate than metro - dimetryl+ is what I used after quite a lengthy battle unsuccessfully with metro.

Adam


I used lavamocele successfully, to treat a fish for round worms. I was able to diagnose, using a microscope on the fecal matter, and viewing the eggs!!!
Adam, when looking for a flagellate infestation, what do you look for? The living parasite?

[krislewis3]

the Dr. at NADA 2012 Austin.. from university of florida from a department that study fish illness..

she made a statement about flagellates and worms..

in all their studies.. when they found worms.. flagellates were present..

other times.. it was just flagellates..

but it was NEVER just worms alone.. so if you found worms.. treat for flagellates

Are you saying that if worms are found, to treat for both worms, and flagellates?

[krislewis3]

Update ......pigeon finally pooped...and it looked normal, but she seemed to have difficulty passing it! I fed her some brine shrimp, and it seemed to help! Kris

[Skip]

Are you saying that if worms are found, to treat for both worms, and flagellates?

yes..

[dirtyplants]

Spinach and green peas ( without the shells ) are a natural laxative in the diet.

Are you saying that if worms are found, to treat for both worms, and flagellates?
If flagellates are found you also treat for bacteria infection as both goes hand and hand.

[Skip]

If flagellates are found you also treat for bacteria infection as both goes hand and hand.

that i don't know about.. the Dr. from Uni. Florida did not cover that..

[krislewis3]

Ok guys.....am I understanding that if I have a diagnosis of worms, from observing their eggs in fecal matter by microscope, I should treat for worms, flagellates, and bacterial infection? If so, what meds would be needed to treat all 3 problems? Kris

[dirtyplants]

LOL I could not tell you about worms and flagellates but flagellates usually cause an irritation and upset the gram neg. and positive balance so treatment of bacteria infection has been accompanied with Flagellates like hex. This is from what I have read.

[krislewis3]

To sum things up.....this is my 10th, and last day of metro treatment. The fish is eating small amounts of food, but certainly not back to 'normal' eating. I've seen her poop twice...both times it was black, and normal looking! Question: should I conclude that she is fine due to the normal poop, or, should I be concerned because she's not eating normally? Keep in mind that she is a small 5" adult fish, that has never been a big eater, but used to eat more then she is now!! Please advise!!! Kris

[aalbina]

From your previous post - I assume you have a microscope. I would scope fresh feces and make sure you don't see an flagellate type protozoans zooming around the slide. If not then I would give the fish a week to recover a bit and for it's appetite to increase. While treating with metro it is not uncommon for fish to eat very little. Give the fish a break, watch for bloat, cloudy eyes, listing, bulging eyes and other signs of internal bacterial infection. If you see any - you can treat with antibiotics as recommended above. I prefer Furan2 and have had good success with it. I don't disagree with dirtyplants - I've experienced the same thing she describes - I would just not treat unless there were some signs of internal bacterial infection. You have to be vigilant and observant because a bacterial infection can kill rather quickly if untreated.

Adam



To sum things up.....this is my 10th, and last day of metro treatment. The fish is eating small amounts of food, but certainly not back to 'normal' eating. I've seen her poop twice...both times it was black, and normal looking! Question: should I conclude that she is fine due to the normal poop, or, should I be concerned because she's not eating normally? Keep in mind that she is a small 5" adult fish, that has never been a big eater, but used to eat more then she is now!! Please advise!!! Kris

[krislewis3]

Because I use the microscope in the lab of the hospital where I work, I'm not sure that the little bugs will stay alive long enough for me to drive to work, and then get a long enough break to sneak out of the O.R., go to the lab, and con one of the lab techs into letting me put fish poop under their microscope!!! I am interested in buying a scope though...can you advise me as to what strength I need to visualize flagellates? Kris

[OC Discus]

Sometimes less is best. If the fish are eating and acting normally, treatment can do more harm than good. Presence of some parasites is normal in all our tanks and fish. The stress of too much attention, change, medication can be the thing that makes them sick and kills them.

With good food clean water and a low stress environment they can resist or throw off most common ailments without treatment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=OC Discus;1057701]Sometimes less is best. If the fish are eating and acting normally, treatment can do more harm than good. Presence of some parasites is normal in all our tanks and fish. The stress of too much attention, change, medication can be the thing that makes them sick and kills them.

With good food clean water and a low stress environment they can resist or throw off most common ailments without treatment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)[/

Great advise!!! Kris

[dirtyplants]

It is common that if treating flags, the gram. neg. and gram pos. get knocked off. What I mean is if you use something to kill parasites in the stomach and the intestinal track, the balance is totally disturbed. Chemicals kills parasites. Parasites dying off leads to either gram neg. or gram positive bacteria taking over creating an imbalance. Remember you are treating not just a parasite but the fish and its biological system. Personally I would not over medicate unless it is absolutely
necessary. Antibiotics kill both gram neg. and gram positive bacteria. Chemicals go straight to the liver and kidneys, causing the immune system to go and the proliferation of bacteria. Parasites take advantage of a weaken immune system and the immune system is determined by the good bacteria in the gut and intestinal system. I would keep him in QT until he eats normally. If he never eat well then I would be very concerned of a bacteria infection. Watch and observe, look for hiding, lack of appetite, turning dark, these can be good indicators of early bacteria infection. Not eating well is a symptom and should be watched. Bacteria infections can kill fish that look normal for the most part, and can kill quickly as Adam has mentioned. I would qt him until he can hold his own on the food situation. The stomach size is about the size of his eye so that might be an indicator as to how much he should eat at one time.

[krislewis3]

It's been 4 days since I finished metro treatment, and although I saw my bd eat some while on metro, she is back to having no interest in food. While on metro, I observed her feces, which were black and normal looking, but have not observed any poop since then because she is not eating now. Although she seems listless at times, I'm not seeing any other symptoms. Her color is good, her fins are erect!
I don't get it!! Any advise? HELP...........Kris

[dirtyplants]

4 days since I finished metro treatment

How big is your QT tank? Did you scope again for worms? I would consider furan-2 after 5-6 days of not eating. Are you changing water daily? Furan -2 is for bacteria, antibiotic. Again it is not uncommon for fish to get bacteria infections after treatment of worms and flagellates. Furan2 is fairly mild, will not kill biological filter. Again look for slight bloating cloudy eyes or anything on the skin.

[aalbina]

Concur with Coree. If you haven't already, QT this fish. Just because on has an internal bacterial infection doesn't mean the others do. No reason to treat the whole tank - which will probably hurt your bio filtration. Furan didn't wipe out my bio but based on ammonia levels I think it weakens it in my tanks.

Adam



How big is your QT tank? Did you scope again for worms? I would consider furan-2 after 5-6 days of not eating. Are you changing water daily? Furan -2 is for bacteria, antibiotic. Again it is not uncommon for fish to get bacteria infections after treatment of worms and flagellates. Furan2 is fairly mild, will not kill biological filter. Again look for slight bloating cloudy eyes or anything on the skin.

[aalbina]

Because I use the microscope in the lab of the hospital where I work, I'm not sure that the little bugs will stay alive long enough for me to drive to work, and then get a long enough break to sneak out of the O.R., go to the lab, and con one of the lab techs into letting me put fish poop under their microscope!!! I am interested in buying a scope though...can you advise me as to what strength I need to visualize flagellates? Kris

You can see them pretty clearly with 400x or 500x (the video I posted in this thread is at 500x). Identifying the species will probably take more like 1000x, stain and some talent.

Adam

[PP_GBR]

Please repost a pic of your fish. Need to see the eye color. It takes some time after metro treatment for the fish to fully recover and eating normal again. If she eats, observe her tummy, she should look full. Feed her some frozen bloodworms/fzbr to entice her appetite. Yet, she' d pick @ the food or ignore it at first but eventually she will be eating like before. You just need to be more observant.

[krislewis3]

I have fish in my qt tank....so I have no where to isolate her. No cloudy, or bulging eyes, or anything that I can see on the skin. No, I haven't scoped for worms again, but it was negative for worms at the beginning of the treatment! Feces were black, and normal looking, during metro treatment, however, I haven't seen her poop since then. I'll post a photo of her when I get home from work!! Kris

[dirtyplants]

Frankly I am going to say something that may seem a bit rash, but here it goes, if you can afford to purchase discus then you can afford to have an extra small tank(s) around for qt. If for no other possibilities you can use a bucket but using meds blindly is going to kill or severely shorten the life span of the fish, and if you treat the whole tank you are actively shorting the life span of your healthy fish.
So you treated her now is the wait game to see if the meds have helped her or have made her worse in some way. Just keep trying to feed her and keep the excess uneaten food cleaned up and water clean.

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-12.jpg


Ok....here is my bd that I'm concerned about........kris

[krislewis3]

Frankly I am going to say something that may seem a bit rash, but here it goes, if you can afford to purchase discus then you can afford to have an extra small tank(s) around for qt. If for no other possibilities you can use a bucket but using meds blindly is going to kill or severely shorten the life span of the fish, and if you treat the whole tank you are actively shorting the life span of your healthy fish.
So you treated her now is the wait game to see if the meds have helped her or have made her worse in some way. Just keep trying to feed her and keep the excess uneaten food cleaned up and water clean.

Well, I do have a tank that I use for qt....At the moment, it's in use to qt a new discus. I can afford another tank, however, I don't have room for another tank!! Besides, my husband barley tolerates 2 tanks, in a cramped living space!!
And BTW, my names not Frank......LOL

[dirtyplants]

Frankly, (frankly |ˈfra ng klē| adverb in an open, honest, and direct manner) I am surprised your name is not Frank:).

All aside, watch how much or if he eats try not stress her/him out and see if there is an improvement. I totally get not having extra tanks around not being used and taking up space, but you may think about meds and dips in a bucket for the meds. time frame and then to place back into tank after the time frame calls for.

[OC Discus]

kris,

The picture doesn't show anything of concern that I can see. Is he still not eating? Have you tried bloodworms lately?


http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-12.jpg


Ok....here is my bd that I'm concerned about........kris

[krislewis3]

She is still listless, and will eat brine shrimp (very little) but ignores all the foods that she used to eat!! She just DOSENT act normal......I'm wondering if she has a little brain damage!

[OC Discus]

Is she being chased a lot by another fish? Some fish, like people, are just less active than others- they have a lower spot on the totem pole and stay to themselves more. Hormonal issues could also be a factor- coming into breeding age.

I have one that has a spot in the tank where she just hangs out. She is chased often by the largest two and just likes her quiet spot. But she eats and is otherwise healthy.

If she likes shrimp, feed it more often. Maybe try freeze dried blood worms for variety if you haven't already. Don't be too alarmed if she is eating and looks ok. They all have different temperaments and personalities.

[PP_GBR]

Maybe she had IBS. LOL . Observe her for few more weeks and up your wc to daily if you haven't done that.

[krislewis3]

I wouldn't be worried if I didn't love this fish sooooooo much!! Even though she is my smallest discus, she has always been my favorite! If you guys don't think she needs antibiotics....I will just observe her, and hope that she maintains her health! What would the first signs of wasting and starvation look like???? What should I be looking for?? Kris

[dirtyplants]

Watch her for flukes of some kind: flared gills, labored breathing, excess mucus, lethargic, and swimming will become intermittent as the fish will tire easily. Pic not very clear. Not eating is a symptom that something is wrong but not enough to make and intelligent guess. WC important.

[krislewis3]

Watch her for flukes of some kind: flared gills, labored breathing, excess mucus, lethargic, and swimming will become intermittent as the fish will tire easily. Pic not very clear. Not eating is a symptom that something is wrong but not enough to make and intelligent guess. WC important.

I'm not seeing any symptoms at all except the eating problem.....what are the first symptoms of wasting, or starvation in discus?

[dirtyplants]

If the water quality is fine the next step is to figure out is:
is it an outside or inside parasite, there are many outside parasites you can not see. Usually a healthy fish can stay external parasites through mucus, which prevents the parasite from entering into the gills and /or the skin. Of course internal parasites along with bacteria (of which their needs to be a balance for bacteria both gram neg. and gram positive), play a big factor in the fishes immune system. It is difficult to treat and to diagnose symptoms in a community tank. Not eating could be a lot of things, besides wasting disease. There is not much to go on thus far. I can just ask for more symptoms if there are any like, flared gills mucus, dull eyes, color change, breathing, activity, eating, fin condition, dark or white spots, red spots, swimming patterns, skin condition, bloating, swollen eyes, fungus. Truthfully I would never recommend a med which is toxic to the fish just on her not eating, at least not at her stage. It is equally not easy to treat a fish when you are unclear as to the exact reason the fish stopped eating, when not in a qt tank.
The least toxic recommendation I would give at this stage, with no symptoms other then not eating and lethargic would be to qt her and use a salt bath / one table spoon per 10 gallons for 48 hours with water changes every 12 hours.
Now please the anti salt people don't make this a divergent campaign into your anxieties of salt.

[OC Discus]

If she is eating some every day, I would use more of the foods she eats and try more enticing foods like frozen bloodworm. If her appetite picks up, she will be improving. Be watching for signs of further decline- not eating at all for several days, visible signs like sores on the body or parasites.

Can you post a full tank shot so we can see your whole setup?

Also, some of the experts like Rick don't comment on planted tanks. If you don't have a lot invested in your plants you might remove them and do a deep clean water change, since plant roots are breeding grounds for some nasties. Be careful when doing a deep vacuum not to stir, but pusth the vacuum all the way to the bottom and let it suck out the deep stuff.

Kris, another thing I have done is to add a uv sterilizer which kills bacteria and parasites in the water column. The right unit could greatly enhance your water quality.


I'm not seeing any symptoms at all except the eating problem.....what are the first symptoms of wasting, or starvation in discus?

[OC Discus]

Kris, I'm just looking at this post and it seems the hunger strike started when you added the frozen beefheart. It is possible that something in the beefheart did not agree with her. I'm also wondering if there is anything green in the tetra bits or beef heart flake. A daily meal of something green and with a variety of vitamins is recommended. I use Omega One Kelp Veggie Pellets everyday at lunch. It is made with pure salmon, kelp, and has multiple added vitamins. Petsmart carries these pellets. It might appear they are not eating them because they are hard, but they also contain garlic. If you let them soften in the water for an hour or so, I think you will find they eat them within a couple of hours. They will get used to them and they are very good for the fish.

Good luck.


I saw your post from yesterday, and I don't think it's the same thing. The stringy slime comming from my bd is just like it looks in the photo, very thin, and wispy, and hard to see. It's interesting that about 1 month ago, I added 'frozen' beef hart to their normal diet of fd black worms, tetra bits, beef hart flake from kens fish, fd brine shrimp, and brine shrimp flake!

[krislewis3]

Yes....I did notice the change when I started the frozen beef hart!!! Another change was the addition of a power head, and I wondered it that was making her nervous, so I removed that!! Again, I would ask for the symptoms associated with starvation. Can you advise me on that??? Kris

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-3.jpg


This is a photo of the entire tank where my blue diamond lives.......

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, look at your fish head on and the area above the eyes should have a full look when you follow the line of the body from the eye to the dorsal fin. When a fish starts to lose body mass that line will start to look sunken.

[krislewis3]

Kris, look at your fish head on and the area above the eyes should have a full look when you follow the line of the body from the eye to the dorsal fin. When a fish starts to lose body mass that line will start to look sunken.


Thank you for that Pat.......

[OC Discus]

Kris,

I really like your setup. Simple, clean, looks healthy. I've never experienced wasting disease, but I've been researching tapeworms. I occasionally see a long white stringy poo and have just ignored it since it was random. After seeing one today about 3" I've decided there are some tape worms in my fish. My study showed that they don't immediately kill the fish, the fish can appear healthy in every respect, except they do not grow at the proper rate. It is also possible that a severe case of tapeworm could be involved in the wasting disease.

Is the bd still eating some every day? Have you seen any long stringy feces? Apparently tape worms are very common and can be treated with prazipro. If you have seen some, Josie started a thread a couple of years ago with a lot of info. Al added further info. You can do an advanced search for "tape worm" and look only in titles. Then look for the thread started by Josie at Chicago Discus.

Your fish look good. I don't think they are in imminent danger.

Ps. Your sand looks really white. I may have missed it earlier, but what kind is it?

[krislewis3]

Kris,

I really like your setup. Simple, clean, looks healthy. I've never experienced wasting disease, but I've been researching tapeworms. I occasionally see a long white stringy poo and have just ignored it since it was random. After seeing one today about 3" I've decided there are some tape worms in my fish. My study showed that they don't immediately kill the fish, the fish can appear healthy in every respect, except they do not grow at the proper rate. It is also possible that a severe case of tapeworm could be involved in the wasting disease.

Is the bd still eating some every day? Have you seen any long stringy feces? Apparently tape worms are very common and can be treated with prazipro. If you have seen some, Josie started a thread a couple of years ago with a lot of info. Al added further info. You can do an advanced search for "tape worm" and look only in titles. Then look for the thread started by Josie at Chicago Discus.

Your fish look good. I don't think they are in imminent danger.

Ps. Your sand looks really white. I may have missed it earlier, but what kind is it?

Thanks for the compliments....i just redid it, I took out my 3/D background and sold it, because of the mess that got trapped behind it, and I removed my manzanita, because it was growing a fungus that had to be cleaned daily!!
After spending a ton of money, I've come to realize that it's best to keep the tank simple, and let the fish be the focus!
As far as the sand is concerned, I found that the finer the sand is, the prettier it looks, however, it's not practical, because it gets sucked up in the syphon. I now use the white sand that petco sells, which is what you see in the photo!!

She eats small amounts of brine Shrimp, but not every day! It's weird because she began eating when I was treating the tank with metro, and once the treatment was over, the eating slowed. The last time I saw her poop, was also during the metro treatment, and it was black, and normal looking. I haven't seen her poop since then, but I keep watching and hoping to catch her. I don't get it, but I do appreciate all the input, and advise from you, and others here on SD. Kris

[krislewis3]

Ok guys, I don't know what to think......my BDs has stopped eating anything...,she continues to be listless! What I don't understand is that while I was treating the tank with metro, she started eating, but since the end of treatment, her eating slowed, until she stopped completely!!!. Other then being listless, and slight darkening at times, there are no other symptoms...she looks good, color good, fins erect,....... Has anyone out there ever had this happen? Please, any advise would be appreciated! Kris

[OC Discus]

Sorry to hear. How long since she ate? How long since you removed the 3d background and rearranged the tank. She may have picked up a nasty bug in the change, in addition to being stressed by the change.

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=OC Discus;1060614]Sorry to hear. How long since she ate? How long since you removed the 3d background and rearranged the tank. She may have picked up a nasty bug in the change, in addition to being stressed by the change

The background was removed a couple of months back, and the wood was taken out 2 weeks ago! If she did pick up a bug, what would her symptoms be, and how should I treat it? Kris

[OC Discus]

Sorry Kris,

I'm not really an expert on disease. I know anaerobic bacteria live in areas of low water flow and low oxygen. If these are stirred up in large numbers they can cause problems. You might send a pm to Rick- aka ncogneto for his opinion. Again, how long since she has eaten? If no disease is presenting itself, you may just want to give her time to regain her appetite, overcome whatever is troubling her, or to begin showing signs of what is troubling her. Keep water clean and provide plenty of high protein, vitamin enriched food.


[QUOTE=OC Discus;1060614]Sorry to hear. How long since she ate? How long since you removed the 3d background and rearranged the tank. She may have picked up a nasty bug in the change, in addition to being stressed by the change

The background was removed a couple of months back, and the wood was taken out 2 weeks ago! If she did pick up a bug, what would her symptoms be, and how should I treat it? Kris

[krislewis3]

She stopped eating mid December! I treated her with metro, and she ate small amounts of food during treatment. I observed her feces during this time, and it was normal. I treated for 10 days, she continued eating small amounts of food, then she slowly lost her appetite, until she stopped eating completely a couple of days ago. Now I'm back to square one!!! She's listless, and not eating anything.....please please please, can you offer me some advise???? Kris

[dirtyplants]

Ok do you have a picture, do you have more symptoms? You treated with metro, my next step would be bacteria, furan-2 which is fairly mild. This should aid in bacteria help after the metro. Of course symptoms and behavior information would be something more to go on. Metro will take a while to exhibit signs of improvement, or rejection. So wait a week before you start another treatment after the metro. Please repost current condition and well being of the fish.

[PP_GBR]

I'd retreat with metro again for 10 days then follow with furan 2 for 7 days. Unless Master Rick has other plan 4 you. If her eye color still looks bright orange/red, I would worry too much about internal issue yet.

[PP_GBR]

Oh, one more thing, I always treat with metro/Furan plus salt. Just shared what worked for me.

[OC Discus]

Kris,

I've been reading back through the thread and have noted that some have treated with metro with signs of improvement, then a relapse.

It sounds like the metro was affecting the problem, but not eradicating it. Adam mentioned a treatment in the post below that was successful after metro failure. For lack of better advice, it would be worth investigation.

It sounds like possibly a combination of issues- worms, flaggelate, bacteria. The metro is helping, but not fixing the problem. Since heavy medication can be detrimental to the fish, it might be wise to set up at least a 20g hospital tank for this fish. My local fish store had a med containing metro and prazipro. I'm thinking you need to research and find something to treat a combination of the issues above.



I'm looking for the live protozoan moving around in the field. I have no idea what flagellate eggs look like nor have I found anything on the Internet nor scientific journals that show eggs. I imagine they would be far too small to see and identify at even 1000x. Here's a couple of videos of an infestation I worked through. http://youtu.be/mLohG_3DSqc and http://youtu.be/4emANAkwmis. In order to positively identify the species as Hexamita, Spironucleous or Cryptobia you have to be able to count the flagellates themselves both front and back. At 1000x a live flagellate is moving to fast to isolate for that identifcation - if I get them again I have a protozoan expert willing to do the identification from a sample in his lab. He actually has protozoans named after him. I suppose if your a biologist that's a big deal.

According to the University of Florida Extension, a few of these protozoans in the gut of fish is common. When environmental factors weaken the immune system - that's when these things reproduce unchecked and cause major issues. http://www.extension.org/mediawiki/files/0/02/Management_of_hexamita_in_ornamental_cichlids.pdf

I had success with a different product that isn't well documented in it's usage and has a higher mortality rate than metro - dimetryl+ is what I used after quite a lengthy battle unsuccessfully with metro.

Adam

[krislewis3]

Why do you suppose her feces were normal??? That's what has me scratching my head!!

[PP_GBR]

I have fish would eat while under metro treatment and had black feces. Then couple days later he pooped black feces along with yellow/green segments while I was watching him feeding.

Their job is to drive their owner crazy lol.

[OC Discus]

If it is multiple problems it may present multiple symptoms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dirtyplants]

If the fish is listless and turning dark I would be treating for bacteria. It will go down fast after this stage. Is their any bloating or strange smells?

[krislewis3]

If the fish is listless and turning dark I would be treating for bacteria. It will go down fast after this stage. Is their any bloating or strange smells?


She is listless...and mabey turning slightly darker at times!! Can I treat the whole tank for bacteria?

[dirtyplants]

Is there any way to QT her? where in the tank is she swimming? or just hanging? Middle top or bottom? do you notice any bloat or fullness? Is she breathing hard, gills flared out? dullness of eyes? Is she up right, leaning, pointed up or down? Any discoloration in specific areas of the body? Have you tried the epson salt with or after metro?

[krislewis3]

Is there any way to QT her? where in the tank is she swimming? or just hanging? Middle top or bottom? do you notice any bloat or fullness? Is she breathing hard, gills flared out? dullness of eyes? Is she up right, leaning, pointed up or down? Any discoloration in specific areas of the body? Have you tried the epson salt with or after metro?

She's mostly hanging in the mid range of the tank, And I don't see any bloat or fullness in her abdomen. She is upright, with fins erect, color good, no blemishes that I can see, eyes clear, but listless, slow moving, and eating NOTHING! etc. she almost looks like she's in a trance!! What course of action should I take? Kris

[dirtyplants]

The trance syndrom, hmmm, did you do any salt? I am going to ask you to try something very carefully and slowly, lower slowly the water level to where she is in height very slowly, if you have a bladder issue this might help but do it slowly, then raise the water level back up again slowly to the normal level. Again did you do any salt treatment as others have suggested? Watch her carefully for any discomfort. If this has no effect on her after 8 hours then I would treat for a bacteria infection.

[krislewis3]

I did try epson salt, with no results! I'm confused about your suggestion on the water level. How low, and how slow should I do this? (Over a day, or over an hour?) and, what kind of bladder issue are you referring to? Remember that I can't qt her, because I my spare tank has qt fish in it, so, is it reasonable to treat the whole tank, and do you reccomend Furon 2?

[dirtyplants]

:lower the water in the course of an hour, down to where she swims, eg. if she swims in the middle , half way up in the tank then lower the water slowly to the top of her fin. Then fill the tank back up slowly again, if she has a bladder issue due to trapped gas she may be able to expel it by changing the pressure. This should be done carefully and slowly, because their is pressure in the bladder. Works kinda like a submarine. If this is not an issue she will just swim down to the bottom of the tank. If this not an issue then, meaning she swims away to the bottom then when you refill the tank let her rest she will be stressed, and try something like furan 2 that is what I have used. If you don't have a QT tank then yes you will have to treat the whole tank. Furan 2 will not kill your bio load.

[DeMarco]

A few years ago I had a small group of Blue diamonds. 5 fish. They were superb looking and healthy until they reached about 12cm size.
They then, one after the other started showing signs described in this thread.
I treated with metro and it would help somewhat, for a short period of time-before theyd just slip back into same state. 3 died rather quick, 1 I eventually culled and the 5th one recovered for about 6 months, a male whom then paired up with a female Blue diamond from a different source.
They spawned once, he was great; she not so - so I removed her and left him with the fry. After 2 weeks the symptoms returned so I removed him from the fry and treated him again. He sadly never recovered.
The female I later managed to pair to a different male without her ever having issues.
To this dayI haveno explanation but I suspect an internal issue coupled with recurring flagellate issues. Its getting harder and harder to solve this when it occurs. Well for me in any case.
Hope you find a solution, Id try metro again, maybe at a slightly higher dosage.

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[dirtyplants]

The female I later managed to pair to a different male without her ever having issues.
To this dayI haveno explanation but I suspect an internal issue coupled with recurring flagellate issues. Its getting harder and harder to solve this when it occurs. Well for me in any case.
Hope you find a solution, Id try metro again, maybe at a slightly higher dosage.


In your case more then one had repeated issues, treating with metro with results ineffective, flag, treated by metro should be followed by a bacteria treatment, (IMO) because flags cause distress in the stomach and intestinal track the bacteria levels are altered.( Unless the fish made a significant recovery.) Antibiotics kill both good and bad, and destroy the immune system, leaving the fish susceptible to outside pathogens. So understanding that meds can aid in recovery but can also leave undesirable side effects. That then needing a separate measure of action taken. There is no lab work to go by so my process is by elimination. I look at it as a whole system failure, treat for flags, kill the bacteria infection, then treat again for flags. I have seen how killing flags can create havoc internally effecting the bacteria levels. So I would with no other symptoms treat flags/bacteria/flags again. (IMO)

I treated with metro and it would help somewhat, for a short period of time-before theyd just slip back into same state. 3 died rather quick, In your case
it appears the metro treatment was ineffective or at least not the only issue, needing a more complete treatment base.
Like your experience the Op may have multiple issues and metro may not be able to address all as one medication.

[krislewis3]

A few years ago I had a small group of Blue diamonds. 5 fish. They were superb looking and healthy until they reached about 12cm size.
They then, one after the other started showing signs described in this thread.
I treated with metro and it would help somewhat, for a short period of time-before theyd just slip back into same state. 3 died rather quick, 1 I eventually culled and the 5th one recovered for about 6 months, a male whom then paired up with a female Blue diamond from a different source.
They spawned once, he was great; she not so - so I removed her and left him with the fry. After 2 weeks the symptoms returned so I removed him from the fry and treated him again. He sadly never recovered.
The female I later managed to pair to a different male without her ever having issues.
To this dayI haveno explanation but I suspect an internal issue coupled with recurring flagellate issues. Its getting harder and harder to solve this when it occurs. Well for me in any case.
Hope you find a solution, Id try metro again, maybe at a slightly higher dosage.

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Thank you for your feedback.....it helps!! Firstly, is it safe to treat the whole tank with metro again?? And secondly, what dose would you suggest?

[krislewis3]

In your case more then one had repeated issues, treating with metro with results ineffective, flag, treated by metro should be followed by a bacteria treatment, (IMO) because flags cause distress in the stomach and intestinal track the bacteria levels are altered. Unless the fish made a significant recovery. Antibiotics kill both good and bad, and destroy the immune system, leaving the fish susceptible to outside pathogens. There is no lab work to go by so my process is by elimination. I look at it as a whole system failure, treat for flags, kill the bacteria infection, then treat again for flags. I have seen how killing flags and how flags create havoc internally effecting the bacteria levels. So I would with no other symptoms treat flags/bacteria/flags again. (IMO)
In your case
it appears the metro treatment was ineffective or at least not the only issue, needing a more complete treatment base.
Like your experience the Op may have multiple issues and metro may not be able to address all as one medication.


Would you suggest treating with fur on 2 now, or treat again with metro, then futon 2?

[dirtyplants]

Did you try the ballast test by lowing the water levels down to where the fish is? I would fist try to ensure there is no bladder infection. I am trying to eliminate the obvious, you tried epson, along with metro, and now try changing the bladder pressure slowly, if that is ineffective then the next step is to try for bacteria infection, and see if she starts eating, if she eats then check her stools and if sign of flags then treat with metro again. After each treatment allow for the fish to recoup from the medication. From what I have found and read when they get listless they can go quickly.

[krislewis3]

Did you try the ballast test by lowing the water levels down to where the fish is? I would fist try to ensure there is no bladder infection. I am trying to eliminate the obvious, you tried epson, along with metro, and now try changing the bladder pressure slowly, if that is ineffective then the next step is to try for bacteria infection, and see if she starts eating, if she eats then check her stools and if sign of flags then treat with metro again. After each treatment allow for the fish to recoup from the medication. From what I have found and read when they get listless they can go quickly.

Yes...actually I do that very thing (lowering the water) every time I do a water change....and my pump is very slow to fill back up! Tell me, is it ok to use epson salt while treating with metro? And, what do you think of tetra parasite guard?
I

[dirtyplants]

From what you have done I would have done it in this order, tried the epson, ballast test, metro, furan 2, and again if needed metro.
Did you lower the water to the top of the fishes top fin? You need to look at your metro directions, not all metro is the same, some powder some liquid, I have never used parasite guard so I could not give you my opinion of it.

[krislewis3]

From what you have done I would have done it in this order, tried the epson, ballast test, metro, furan 2, and again if needed metro.
Did you lower the water to the top of the fishes top fin? You need to look at your metro directions, not all metro is the same, some powder some liquid, I have never used parasite guard so I could not give you my opinion of it.

I did use epson salt first, metro second then the water test, and now Im asking about the parasite guard because I happen to have some, and it's a combo of praziquantel,diflubenzuron, metro, and acriflavine. It claims to clear paracites, including flagellates , and it claims to guard against secondary infections!! What do you think?
I also have furan 2 and metro on hand.....which way would you go?

[dirtyplants]

I have never used it that would be your call. if you feel your fish has worms and flags then then of course try it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I do not think that the parasite guard will directly treat an infection. You are best to go with the Furan 2. However since you mentioned the fish has entered a zombie state if you can reach into the tank, touch the fish and it barely moves. It is pass any help and should be humanely culled. If this is the case I am sorry.

[dirtyplants]

Thank you Pat!

[PP_GBR]

At what temp did you treat metro with the first time? Did you keep the light off during metro treatment? I would cover the tank if it locates in a bright area even if you are treating with Furan-2.

[krislewis3]

Kris, I do not think that the parasite guard will directly treat an infection. You are best to go with the Furan 2. However since you mentioned the fish has entered a zombie state if you can reach into the tank, touch the fish and it barely moves. It is pass any help and should be humanely culled. If this is the case I am sorry.


Pat, I thank you for jumping in. She is not at the 'cull' point. She looks good, erect fins, good color, and will still join the others and swim around at times, however, she is listless, and spends most of her time in the corner. Question...if she has a bacterial infection, what symptoms should she have? If she DOSENT show any symptoms, should I treat the tank with furan 2? (I have the drug, and if it won't hurt, and might help, considering that I'll be treating the whole tank). Thanks Kris

[krislewis3]

At what temp did you treat metro with the first time? Did you keep the light off during metro treatment? I would cover the tank if it locates in a bright area even if you are treating with Furan-2.


The tank was 90 degrees, and lights were off, however, I didn't cover the tank!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, you could try a week for just keeping the tank super clean with large daily WCs. Sometimes fish need a chance to rest and recover from all the stuff we throw at them. Think about us recovering from a cold. It takes a bit to recover with a normal appetite.

If the fish had something inside which was bothering it (ie, ate to much) I would expect to see a fish with its head tilted slightly down. However I do not know specific symbols associated with a internal infection. I do know that if a fish has an internal infection and you bump the heat up. The eyes will bugle out and the fish dies soon after. :(

[krislewis3]

Pat, Is this what you mean be tilting down?Krishttp://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/Gil%20problems/image-1.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes Kris if it is staying in that position.

[krislewis3]

Yes Kris if it is staying in that position.

Pat, since you point out that her stomach is bothering her, what is my next move, keeping in mind that I've done 10 days of metro, during which she began eating, only to revert to the hunger strike shortly after treatment ended! Kris

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I gave two choices; rest or furan 2. The person observing the fish are in the best position to decide on course of action.
Pat

[krislewis3]

Kris, I gave two choices; rest or furan 2. The person observing the fish are in the best position to decide on course of action.
Pat

Thanks again Pat! I think I'll give it a week with large WC, and if I'm not seeing results, go with the furan 2. Kris

[dirtyplants]

Kris if you go to the drug you are thinking about, using on the line, like furan 2, the company list what it treats, and that lists includes descriptions and symptoms. This will aid you in developing a treatment plan.
If your fish has stomach issues it could be from food, bladder infections, from the medication given already, or bacteria and diagnosing without lab work falls with experience. Please remember though if it is bacteria infection which I do beleive it is raising the temp will cause the bacterial infestation to multiply making it worse.

So at this point do massive water changes with aged clean water, if you use tap directly it will gas out in the tank and cause more stress. If she is listing and not interacting with her tank mates turning dark then do the furan 2. That is my suggestion, I will not promote one medication over another. I use furan 2 that is why I mentioned it.
Pat has made a good recommendation observe watch see if she improves, if not then you need to consider furan2. We can't tell you how to treat your fish we can't see her we can only recommend strategies based on what you tell us. So if you do not look at behavior well you will not be able to relate it well and limit the tools to make a logical treatment strategies.

[israelillo81]

My friend, I have also experienced a very cumbersome QT to introduce a
Couple of wild caught that developed Holes in the head with no positive reaction on metro-praziquantel, aquarium salt. Until the guy at my local pet shop to whom I own such nice WC exemplars , gave me a medication that is base on Flubendazole . I hope you can find it, it's extreme effective and degrades itself after 4 days. I ventured to medicate my entire planted tank with no adverse
Consequences on olant or shrimps. My snails ( undesirable , half of them where dead ) I hope this can help you.



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[israelillo81]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/bubu4apa.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/24/mamypyma.jpg


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[krislewis3]

Thank you dirtyplants ( what is your name?) I appreciate all your suggestions, and the help you've given me. I've decided to treat the tank with furan 2. Can you advise me on dosing? How much, how often? Also, when should I see results if it's working? Kris

[krislewis3]

I have furan2 in powder form. Please, can you guys give me dosing instructions for my 60 gallon tank, with 4 adult and 2 juvie discus, 2 bn pleco, and 3 Bolivian rams?????

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, did your Furan 2 did not come with dosing instructions on the package/container? If not can you post who makes it.

[dirtyplants]

Name at the bottom of the post.

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;1061935]Kris, did your Furan 2 did not come with dosing instructions on the package/container? If not can you post who makes it

Yes, I have package instructions, but i wondered if I should follow them, or a different regime!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, following the dosing instructions BUT do a WC prior to the first dose. Repeat this for four days; WC and re-dose with full dose. The package recommendation is four days but I will go longer if I do not see any improvement at the end of those four days.

[krislewis3]

Kris, following the dosing instructions BUT do a WC prior to the first dose. Repeat this for four days; WC and re-dose with full dose. The package recommendation is four days but I will go longer if I do not see any improvement at the end of those four days.

Thank you again Pat!!

[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-15.jpg

Pat, or Corrie, or anyone reading this thread......I'm about to start my furan 2 treatment, and while doing my WC prior to dosing, I came across the above feces floating around the tank. Actually, I saw a couple of them. Since I dosed the tank with epson salt this morning, I'm wondering if it is intestinal lining from that, of if I need to start another round of metro, before the furan 2? This latest find has me confused as to my next step.. HELP!!!!! Kris

[aalbina]

Kris,

Shedding of intestinal lining like this can be symptomatic of a lot of things. Assuming the first metro knocked back the flagellates (a good assumption based on her momentary recovery), give the treatment of Furan 2 a chance to help control bacteria in the gut. Metro IS and antibiotic that also happens to kill flagellates. Furan2 is a stronger more specific antibiotic. I suggest you continue with your planned treatment.

Furan 2 is light sensitive so turn out the tank lights during treatment.

If it were me - I would buy a 10 gallon QT tank, slip in a heater and an airstone and get her out of the main tank - probably save enough with the lower dosing of Furan2 for 10 gallons at a time to buy the 10 gallon tank...

Adam


http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-15.jpg

Pat, or Corrie, or anyone reading this thread......I'm about to start my furan 2 treatment, and while doing my WC prior to dosing, I came across the above feces floating around the tank. Actually, I saw a couple of them. Since I dosed the tank with epson salt this morning, I'm wondering if it is intestinal lining from that, of if I need to start another round of metro, before the furan 2? This latest find has me confused as to my next step.. HELP!!!!! Kris

[krislewis3]

So you think that it is intestinal lining?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Adam. I think the separation into a 10 gallon is excellent advice Kris if you can swing that. You will need to do large daily WC since there is no bio-bed.
Pat

[krislewis3]

Thanks Adam. I think the separation into a 10 gallon is excellent advice Kris if you can swing that. You will need to do large daily WC since there is no bio-bed.
Pat

That does make sense Pat...are you in agreement that I should start the Duran 2, even with the white fecal matter seen in the above photo?

[Second Hand Pat]

I am Kris, you do not know from which fish it came from and I would not treat based on a one time occurrence. Can you separate the one fish?

[dirtyplants]

Kris it would be so much simpler and cheaper on you to do a qt tank when you are done using it, turn into a basket for storage.
Remember you did metro, do furan2, and watch wait a week after you finished your treatment with furan2. If you still have problems with poop being white then you can try the metro again. Remember metro will kill flegs. but probably cause bacteria issues. So again you did salt, you did metro, now do furan2 as directed by the package instructions. Wait a week watch your fish during this time. Look for improvements.

[israelillo81]

People have recommended you several times to use a QT tank. I think that is the only step you are missing to have a controlled and observable recovery


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[krislewis3]

Ok, ok, ok. I'll get another tank (and risk my husband divorcing me 'lol'). Pet co is running a dollar per gallon sale right now! Sometimes though, I wonder.... if one is sick, isn't it possible that another one is harboring in the same parasite etc.? Isn't is reasonable to treat the whole tank, when the problem is contagious? Kris

[aalbina]

Yes it's reasonable if you know what you're dealing with - you don't know. We are guessing. Best not to put your other fish internal organs through an un-necessary treatment. Internal bacterial infections are not contagious.

Adam


Ok, ok, ok. I'll get another tank (and risk my husband divorcing me 'lol'). Pet co is running a dollar per gallon sale right now! Sometimes though, I wonder.... if one is sick, isn't it possible that another one is harboring in the same parasite etc.? Isn't is reasonable to treat the whole tank, when the problem is contagious? Kris

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I agree with Adam here. If this is a matter of being lazy (like you posted when asked to fill out the questionnaire) please consider what is best for you or your fish. Not trying to be rude, just trying to have you evaluate your priorities.

[krislewis3]

Kris, I agree with Adam here. If this is a matter of being lazy (like you posted when asked to fill out the questionnaire) please consider what is best for you or your fish. Not trying to be rude, just trying to have you evaluate your priorities.

That 'lazy' quote was a joke!! I spend most of my spare time on my tanks! I don't at all mind another tank, it's just difficult to find the space! Anyway....I have an extra heater and air stone, but what is the best way to handle the bb? Can I just lay some used filter material from one of my existing tanks in the new tank, or does it need air hooked up to it? Kris

[krislewis3]

I started furan2 yesterday, and the bd looks a little worse today!! Kris

[krislewis3]

Yes it's reasonable if you know what you're dealing with - you don't know. We are guessing. Best not to put your other fish internal organs through an un-necessary treatment. Internal bacterial infections are not contagious.

Adam

Since the whole tank was exposed to metro, would they all be exposed to the same infection?

[PP_GBR]

I feel for you. Good luck with your treatment.

[krislewis3]

I feel for you. Good luck with your treatment.

Thank you........

[dirtyplants]

I know this is difficult but again you should do some research, all meds are going to be hard on your fish and you really need to say much more then, my fish is looking worse. We can not see your fish. You have gotta take the bull by the horns and decide on a treatment course. If you choose to treat the whole tank remember it will affect all the fish and their organ functions. Fill out the disease questionnaire so we have more to go on.

[krislewis3]

I know this is difficult but again you should do some research, all meds are going to be hard on your fish and you really need to say much more then, my fish is looking worse. We can not see your fish. You have gotta take the bull by the horns and decide on a treatment course. If you choose to treat the whole tank remember it will affect all the fish and their organ functions. Fill out the disease questionnaire so we have more to go on.

I filled out The disease form on dec. 28. When I say that she looks a little worse, I mean that she seems a little more listless. The Furan 2 treatment is on day 2 now, and I plan to see it through until it's done. If she's no better, I plan to isolate her, and start another round of metro!
Do you want me to fill out another disease form?

[dirtyplants]

Good for you, finish the furan2 treatment wait a week before making any decisions. Add a air stone to the tank for more aeration, turn off the lights. Yes please fill out another form, things may have changed since then. I did not see the first, so I suspect others also have not seen it.

[krislewis3]

Good for you, finish the furan2 treatment wait a week before making any decisions. Add a air stone to the tank for more aeration, turn off the lights. Yes please fill out another form, things may have changed since then. I did not see the first, so I suspect others also have not seen it.

The disease form is on page 2 of this thread, for anyone who is interested! The information on it is still the same, and the posts after that speak of the steps that have been taken, and the results of those steps!! Kris

[dirtyplants]

OK update on the behavior, the skin condition, breathing, color, position of fish and swimming behavior, eyes, lesions, spots, red spots, cloudiness of eyes, fin condition, - I know some of this has changed during the course of our dialog, so please update as asked, we are trying to help and we need current information to dialog with, remember we can not see the fish.

[krislewis3]

OK update on the behavior, the skin condition, breathing, color, position of fish and swimming behavior, eyes, lesions, spots, red spots, cloudiness of eyes, fin condition, - I know some of this has changed during the course of our dialog, so please update as asked, we are trying to help and we need current information to dialog with, remember we can not see the fish.

The ONLY change is that she seems a little bit more listless!

[krislewis3]

I bought a new tank, 16 gallons, to use as a hospital tank.....how do you guys suggest I handle the bb? Can I use an existing piece of filter material, from one of my other tanks, and lay it in the tank? Does it need to be hooked up to air, or is a separate air stone enough to keep it viable? Kris

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Kris did you already fill that 16 gal tank? If not, please take it back and get a 20 gal tank. 16 is too small even for a QT tank in my opinion for discus, they risk hurting themselves. If they have a dollar sale, spend the extra $4.00.


One rule of thumb for everyone (in my opinion): Never go smaller than a 20 gal tank for breeding and QT fish.

[israelillo81]

16 gallon is perfectly fine. I QT four wilds on a 16 gal without a
Problem


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[israelillo81]

You need no biological filtration. Only a sponge filter . Daily water change and rinse sponge everyday.


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[israelillo81]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/a4e3emym.jpg


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[krislewis3]

You need no biological filtration. Only a sponge filter . Daily water change and rinse sponge everyday.


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I asking about bb in the new tank! Do I need to hook it up to a power source, or can I just lay a piece of a used filter cartridge in the new tank?

[israelillo81]

You need only aeriation, a sponge filter looks like thishttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/a5y8ety3.jpg


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[israelillo81]

You need only aeriation, a sponge filter looks like this


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[krislewis3]

You need only aeriation, a sponge filter looks like thishttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/26/a5y8ety3.jpg


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I use a sponge filter in my show tank, it is hooked up to power? My question is....can I cut a piece of that sponge off, and float it in the new tank to supply it with bb? OR, do I have to have air power source hooked up to it??

[OC Discus]

Kris,

It depends on if you plan to do daily 100% water changes or not. If not, you need a filtration system like any other tank that can remove solids and build a bio filter bed. Bare Bottom will prevent pests from hiding. A 20 g kit is cheaper than adding the separate parts- about $50 on sale (Walmart, Petsmart) includes hood, light, filter and heater. If you don't have time to cycle it, I would add Tetra Safestart which will instantly cycle the tank by adding the beneficial bacteria. Add it to the filter media and watch for ammonia (ammonia alert or strips work). If you get ammonia spike, add a second dose.

Good luck.

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, to keep the BB alive you will need to pull water through the sponge which the air would do. If you can do large daily WCs on the QT that will keep the ammonia/nitrites in check.

[israelillo81]

You do not need to wait to cicle such a small tank. You don't need to build up bacteria to brake down toxics in water as you are supose to provide
At least 90% daily water change. In my case I use
100% reverse osmosis water, so I don't even need to worry about adding anti-chlorine. if you do dayily water change and feed twice a day, you will observe fast recovery


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[israelillo81]

if you keep your sponge filter without daily rinsing hoping to harness the BB, you will see detrimental effects in the fish on such small tank. I made that mistake in my first set up and the fish where getting fungus in their skin, despite my daily water change with
Pure RO water.


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[krislewis3]

if you keep your sponge filter without daily rinsing hoping to harness the BB, you will see detrimental effects in the fish on such small tank. I made that mistake in my first set up and the fish where getting fungus in their skin, despite my daily water change with
Pure RO water.


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Well, you just taught me something!! I thought a new tank HAD to be cycled prior to putting a fish in it! I thought that was the purpose of having a sponge filter (for the bb that it provided.) I always squeeze out my sponge filters weekly. Just to be clear, your saying that I can put this fish in the new tank with just a heater and an air stone? Is that right?

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, yes you can. You will need large daily WC to keep the ammonia in check.

[israelillo81]

Yes, Pat is right . Sponge filter is still better than just airstone. But airstone will do


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[krislewis3]

Ok guys....I'm in day 3 with the furan 2.. So if I understand the advise giving me, lat dose of the furan 2 will be Monday, and if I don't see improvement, I'll put her in the hospital tank Tuesday, and restart the metro! Do you think she needs a rest prior to starting the metro again?
She is much perkier today, but still not interested in any food! Kris

[israelillo81]

You can fish the furan2 in the hospital tank so you can
Observe if feces are still white


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[israelillo81]

And later give her a rest in clean water on your hospital tank environment. Do remember a almost 100% water change is necessary . I feed only pellets or flakes during quarantine, even if the refuse to eat for three straight days. Beef heart would be too messy. Do feed only BH some hour before your scheduled Water Change. When changing water, make sure the temperature difference is not greater that 3 degrees Celsius ( roughly 6deg Fahrenheit )


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[israelillo81]

Upps I lost the first part of my message. Here we go again.
I would even recommend you to continue your Furan2 treatment in the hospital tank, so you can observe if the fish poops white feaces. inve the treatment is finished, give her at least 5 days rest. Do remember an almost 100% water change is necessary . I feed only pellets or flakes during quarantine, even if the refuse to eat for three straight days. Beef heart would be too messy. Do feed only BH some hour before your scheduled Water Change. When changing water, make sure the temperature difference is not greater that 3 degrees Celsius ( roughly 6deg Fahrenheit )


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[Second Hand Pat]

The furan 2 should be completed in the tank where the fish is now if other fish are part of the furan 2 treatment.

[dirtyplants]

Ok guys....I'm in day 3 with the furan 2.. So if I understand the advise giving me, lat dose of the furan 2 will be Monday, and if I don't see improvement, I'll put her in the hospital tank Tuesday, and restart the metro! Do you think she needs a rest prior to starting the metro again?
She is much perkier today, but still not interested in any food! Kris
Please Kris wait a week before moving her and treating her again. These meds are hard on a fish and take a little bit of time to run through the system. Bacteria infections which are internal are more difficult to overcome. Allow the medication to work. Moving her at this juncture will stress her more and leave her open to external parasites. So finish her med. treatment as Pat suggested, on entire tank, wait a week unless she takes a turn for the worse. Do massive WC every day after the treatment on the tank has finished for that entire week, like 50 to 60%. During that rest period feed if you can garlic laced foods you can purchase this also.Garlic will stimulate their appetite and aid their immune system, much like people it may aid in dispelling with internal parasites.

Well, you just taught me something!! I thought a new tank HAD to be cycled prior to putting a fish in it! I thought that was the purpose of having a sponge filter (for the bb that it provided.) I always squeeze out my sponge filters weekly. Just to be clear, your saying that I can put this fish in the new tank with just a heater and an air stone? Is that right?
Kris many medications will kill a biological filter i beleive Metro will also damage the biological filter but I really need to look into this more. BB tank fine, heater and air stone, air stone very important as many medications reduce in some way the oxygen levels in the water column. Heat reduces oxygen, acidity reduces oxygen, and the chemical in the medication may bind up the oxygen molecules. So adding an air stone will help.
Again please let your fish recuperate from the treatment after the treatment has been completed. Much like our bodies medications need time to work.

[krislewis3]

Do all you guys recommend a garlic based food for this problem? If so, can you suggest one for me? Kris

[dirtyplants]

Many people use garlic in their beef heart mixture. My fish are raised on garlic in their foods. You can purchase food from companies that lace garlic along with vitamins in the food. Garlic is not for one problem it is an overall conditioner to help build the immune system. I have to remember which companies sell a garlic tonic, I will have to look it up. I myself just add it to my fish foods, much cheaper that way.

[krislewis3]

Many people use garlic in their beef heart mixture. My fish are raised on garlic in their foods. You can purchase food from companies that lace garlic along with vitamins in the food. Garlic is not for one problem it is an overall conditioner to help build the immune system. I have to remember which companies sell a garlic tonic, I will have to look it up. I myself just add it to my fish foods, much cheaper that way.

Tell me how you add it to your foods...like how much? What form of garlic that you use?

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, this might be worth a try of your fish eat flake...http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-spirulina-garlic-paprika-flake.html

[Tazalanche]

Kris, this might be worth a try of your fish eat flake...http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-spirulina-garlic-paprika-flake.htmlDefinitely. Our fish like that flake.

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's another one...http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-immune-booster-flake.html

...and here is a link to all of Ken's flake Kris if you care to take a look...http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-flake-food.html

[Tazalanche]

You can always find some great food options at kensfish.com, which makes it easy to meet the free shipping for orders over $75.00. The biggest problem I have there is thinning my cart down after going through the flakes.

I need a pound of that...
and 5 pounds of that...
and a pound of that...
ooh! I definitely need some of that too!...
20 minutes later, total of cart = $250.
OOPS! LOL!

[krislewis3]

Yes, Pat is right . Sponge filter is still better than just airstone. But airstone will do


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You can always find some great food options at kensfish.com, which makes it easy to meet the free shipping for orders over $75.00. The biggest problem I have there is thinning my cart down after going through the flakes.

I need a pound of that...
and 5 pounds of that...
and a pound of that...
ooh! I definitely need some of that too!...
20 minutes later, total of cart = $250.
OOPS! LOL!

Yea....I purchase everything from Kensfish......his prices are fantastic, he ships immediately, and the shipping prices is soooo reasonable!! I Love Kensfish!!!!!

[krislewis3]

Kris, this might be worth a try of your fish eat flake...http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-spirulina-garlic-paprika-flake.html

Pat, have you used that one?

[Second Hand Pat]

No Kris, I have used this one however http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-immune-booster-flake.html

I buy a variety of Ken's flake and mix it together and feed that. My flake mix tends to lean towards the veggie side for the heckels. As an experiment you might take a tiny amount of garlic juice and pre-soak a cube of Al's FDBWs in the juice with a small amount of water and feed that.

[krislewis3]

Pat, have you used that one?

Ok I ordered it, I'll let you know if it's a hit!!

[krislewis3]

You can always find some great food options at kensfish.com, which makes it easy to meet the free shipping for orders over $75.00. The biggest problem I have there is thinning my cart down after going through the flakes.

I need a pound of that...
and 5 pounds of that...
and a pound of that...
ooh! I definitely need some of that too!...
20 minutes later, total of cart = $250.
OOPS! LOL!t


How many tanks (fish)do you have?????

[Tazalanche]

6 in use at home, 3 in use at the lfs & 7 in storage atm.

I'm small scale compared to many here.

[dirtyplants]

As an experiment you might take a tiny amount of garlic juice and pre-soak a cube of Al's FDBWs in the juice with a small amount of water and feed that.

This is what I do also, at first my fish just spit it out but now they are so used to it.

[krislewis3]

6 in use at home, 3 in use at the lfs & 7 in storage atm.

I'm small scale compared to many here.

How is it that you have tanks in a lfs???

[Tazalanche]

How is it that you have tanks in a lfs???We're friends with the owner and provide her with mollies, endlers, ancistrus, cories, plants, etc.

We have a consignment type setup where we maintain & provide food for our tanks to help her out.

[krislewis3]

We're friends with the owner and provide her with mollies, endlers, ancistrus, cories, plants, etc.

We have a consignment type setup where we maintain & provide food for our tanks to help her out.


Cool!!

[krislewis3]

Ok guys...I'm frustrated!! This is day 5 on Furan 2, and although she seems to be swimming around a little more....she still isn't eating!!
When she was on 10 days of metro, she began eating by the second day. Do you think I should have kept her on metro longer than 10 days? Do you think I should continue the Furan 2 treatment, even though she's not responding? HELP PLEASE!!!!! Kris

[israelillo81]

Transfer her to the hospital tank, let her rest for 5 days in daily water change conditions with little to no food. Then try the flubendazole I recommended you before, it worked for me after metro-prazi didn't do anything


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[krislewis3]

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r639/krislewis3/image-16.jpg

The above is a photo of fecal matter that I caught my BD pooping! I was so surprised to see this, since she hasn't eaten! It looks normal to me, but I'm eager to get you opinions!

[israelillo81]

Looks normal


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[israelillo81]

Your fish might be right and nothing wrong anymore. She has passed through a very prolonged treatment of metro. So what she only needs is plain recovery and alone time in the hospital tank.


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[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, is she still slightly head down?

[dirtyplants]

How does she look? If treatment just finished with furan 2 let her rest. She is not expected to eat right after treatment. Her poops are looking good. So give her some time.

[krislewis3]

Kris, is she still slightly head down?


When she not swimming, yes, she is slightly head down, however, she is more active now! She is swimming around more,and I saw her pecking around in the substrate for a couple of minuets.
If her feces are normal, is that an indication that the metro eradicated the flagellates??

[Second Hand Pat]

When she not swimming, yes, she is slightly head down, however, she is more active now! She is swimming around more,and I saw her pecking around in the substrate for a couple of minuets.
If her feces are normal, is that an indication that the metro eradicated the flagellates??

Yes Kris, it could be. It is time to let her rest from all the meds and it even sounds like she might be eating a little. I would not separate her at point unless you all ready have. Continue with large daily WCs and let's see how it goes.

[krislewis3]

Yes Kris, it could be. It is time to let her rest from all the meds and it even sounds like she might be eating a little. I would not separate her at point unless you all ready have. Continue with large daily WCs and let's see how it goes.


Just to be clear....you want me to discontinue furan 2?

[dirtyplants]

Finish treatment!!!! Of furan 2....... What it means is the combination of the metro and the furan2 has shown positive results. White poop does not mean flags, white poop could be bacteria or other parasites. You do not know you had flags to begin with, the metro had no effect on the white poop, the fruan2 is having an effect so bacteria may have been a big issue. Finish the treatment then do WC and allow to rest, head pointing down could also mean intestine or bladder issues, so furan2 completion is important to finish complete cycle.

[Second Hand Pat]

Coree, per directions Furan 2 is a four day treatment. Kris has gone 5 to 6 days now (please correct if wrong) so thinking might be best to stop the Furan 2 and go with rest and fresh water.
Pat

[krislewis3]

Finish treatment!!!! Of furan 2....... What it means is the combination of the metro and the furan2 has shown positive results. White poop does not mean flags, white poop could be bacteria or other parasites. You do not know you had flags to begin with, the metro had no effect on the white poop, the fruan2 is having an effect so bacteria may have been a big issue. Finish the treatment then do WC and allow to rest, head pointing down could also mean intestine or bladder issues, so furan2 completion is important to finish complete cycle.

Coree, I'm not sure you understand what has transpired! "She didn't show white feces in the beginning....she just stopped eating! It was suggested that I try metro..which I did, and within 3 days, she began eating. I finished the metro, and things appeared ok, until she stopped eating again. That's when I tried epson salt (which is what caused the white fecal matter that is in the photo). I'm assuming that it was intestinal lining, and it only lasted one day) Next, it was suggested that she may have had a bacterial infection, so I treated her for that with furan 2....... This is where we now stand!! I appreciate your help and advice....Kris

[krislewis3]

Coree, per directions Furan 2 is a four day treatment. Kris has gone 5 to 6 days now (please correct if wrong) so thinking might be best to stop the Furan 2 and go with rest and fresh water.
Pat

Yes...I've completed 5 days of furan 2!! I haven't treated today yet (day6) and I will follow your advice and stop, and hope for the best! I will keep you posted!! Thanks Pat

[dirtyplants]

I am confused then my Kris's question of continuing with furan 2. If the med cycle is completed then WC and rest for 5 days after treatment is recommended and then watch. No need to continue or over dosing once cycle is complete. Bacteria infections take time so meds like furan 2 will need time to be absorbed thoroughly through out the system so Kris rest and WC are necessary if you have completed the recommended cycle time for the meds. Then you need to watch her, we are not sure if it was flags or bacteria or some other parasite. There is a possibility of of babies hatching so QT, fresh wc and rest. I do not recommend over dosing with prolonged usage. Use as directed, which is 4 doses.

[dirtyplants]

Coree, I'm not sure you understand what has transpired! "She didn't show white feces in the beginning....she just stopped eating! It was suggested that I try metro..which I did, and within 3 days, she began eating. I finished the metro, and things appeared ok, until she stopped eating again. That's when I tried epson salt (which is what caused the white fecal matter

Kris not eating is not a reason to give metro, metro is not a panacea more then likely the metro may have caused a bacteria infection especially with the absence of flags this then could cause white poops. This is why I suggested furan 2 for bacteria infections, you stated not eating and then the treatment of metro and salt, then white poops. I doubt the salt had anything to do with the white poops. My suggestion has been through out to do the cycle of furan 2 qt wc and rest. I personally would have just placed her in qt and watched her behavior with just clean wc before recommending any meds. Yes I think I got the sequence correct, meds should not be given out like someone given vitamins. Meds can hurt organ functions so should be given only if symptoms indicate some disease. Metro is not a antibiotic and should not be used as one. I am sorry if I sound harsh in print, not intended.
Let me try this in another way, I suggested furan 2 to counter the metro and its side affects, one being white poops. I was not recommending any medication other then QT and water changes for the eating problems mentioned.

[krislewis3]

Coree, if you read back in the thread, you will see that she stopped eating in mid December, and began eating again after I successfully treated her with metro. And yes, she developed a bacterial infection from the metro, causing her to stop eating again, so we countered that with Furan 2!
Coree, we see this in medicine all the time. You prescribe a drug for high blood pressure, and although it lowers your blood pressure, it also lowers you potassium, so that you now need to take another drug to raise your potassium...etc. etc. etc.

[dirtyplants]

Maybe I am missing your point. I have gone through the posts, and again I will repeat stopping eating is not a reason to give meds. Whether in Dec. or Jan. QT a fish that is acting unnaturally, watch it. We no longer give antibiotics unless a bacteria infection is indicated. Again the furan 2 I suggested was to counter the side effects of metro, but I never would have recommended the metro for a fish that stops eating without an indication of flags. My point being that metro is not a general give to the fish who is acting unusual. Many people seem to beleive that metro is a medication to give when you don't know what is wrong with a fish nor is it a antibiotic, Levamisole is used in cancer treatments for suppressed immune systems, I would not give a dewormer out to fish because it will boost suppressed immune systems, unless I knew nematodes were actualized through symptoms.

[krislewis3]

Maybe I am missing your point. I have gone through the posts, and again I will repeat stopping eating is not a reason to give meds. Whether in Dec. or Jan. QT a fish that is acting unnaturally, watch it. We no longer give antibiotics unless a bacteria infection is indicated. Again the furan 2 I suggested was to counter the side effects of metro, but I never would have recommended the metro for a fish that stops eating without an indication of flags. My point being that metro is not a general give to the fish who is acting unusual. Many people seem to beleive that metro is a medication to give when you don't know what is wrong with a fish nor is it a antibiotic, Levamisole is used in cancer treatments for suppressed immune systems, I would not give a dewormer out to fish because it will boost suppressed immune systems, unless I knew nematodes were actualized through symptoms.


Coree, It's my though that when a discus that you've had for 2 years, suddenly stops eating altogether for close to 2 months, THAT is an indication that something is wrong. If you can put their feces under a microscope, you can diagnose them. In my case, she wasn't pooping at all either, so my choice was to find out what would cause her symptoms, and from there, get advise from those who have the most experience, on which of the causes would be the most likely reason for her symptoms, and then treat for that!! But that's just what makes sense to me........Kris

[krislewis3]

Update: my BD ate 5 good bites of brine shrimp. She didn't touch any of the other foods that I feed, but I'm thinking that this is a good sign!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, a very good sign. :D

[israelillo81]

Post some
Pictures please


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[krislewis3]

Update #2: I observed her eating small amount of flake food, and she even visited the freeze dried black worm feeder, for a small snack!! I think she's back!!! Thanks to all of you guys for your help, advise, and support!!! Kris

[krislewis3]

Post some
Pictures please


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I'll post some tomorrow!!

[PP_GBR]

Glad to know she is eating again. You still need to observe her feces.

[krislewis3]

Glad to know she is eating again. You still need to observe her feces.

Yes, I will.......

[krislewis3]

I've noticed that my BD, and only my BD, will single out, and eat, the feces from my bristle nose plecos!! She even grabbed the end of one, that was still being expelled from the bn pleco!! It was like a tug of war!
My question is, firstly, has any of you seen this before, and secondly, will this make her sick, and thirdly, could this have been the cause of her illness that we just cured???:confused:

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, I have not seem this behavior and I do not know the answers to your questions BUT is it possible to rehome the BN just to be on the safe side?

[krislewis3]

Kris, I have not seem this behavior and I do not know the answers to your questions BUT is it possible to rehome the BN just to be on the safe side?

Yes...I may have to if the behavior is harmful!!

[dirtyplants]

Kris, the bn is just being a bn, but my concerns is that the discus finds his poops is so tasty. Discus love worms to eat, so my concern is that you may have worms nematodes in your tank. Round worms would be another treatment of another med. and metro will not take care of it. What I would suggest is that you look at the poops of the bn also, and other discus in the tank try to get a pic up if you can. Your discus may just think your bn's poops look tasty, but I am convinced that the retina of fish are more complicated then ours meaning I think uv sensors may play apart much like birds, which helps the bird to distinguish from stick and worm. I am just thinking here no proof of this until we can see the poops or sample poop under a microscope.

[krislewis3]

Kris, the bn is just being a bn, but my concerns is that the discus finds his poops is so tasty. Discus love worms to eat, so my concern is that you may have worms nematodes in your tank. Round worms would be another treatment of another med. and metro will not take care of it. What I would suggest is that you look at the poops of the bn also, and other discus in the tank try to get a pic up if you can. Your discus may just think your bn's poops look tasty, but I am convinced that the retina of fish are more complicated then ours meaning I think uv sensors may play apart much like birds, which helps the bird to distinguish from stick and worm. I am just thinking here no proof of this until we can see the poops or sample poop under a microscope.


I have access to a microscope , and have diagnosed nematodes in my fish in the past, so I am familiar with the symptoms, and medication used to treat them.
I agree that my BD probably thinks she's eating a live black worm !! Yummy!!

[OC Discus]

Dogs do this, especially mothers of puppies. It's not really good for them. Sometimes it is said to be a sign of some nutrition deficiency.

Most fish mistake poop for food, but usually spit it back out. Does she spit the poops back out or swallow them?


I've noticed that my BD, and only my BD, will single out, and eat, the feces from my bristle nose plecos!! She even grabbed the end of one, that was still being expelled from the bn pleco!! It was like a tug of war!
My question is, firstly, has any of you seen this before, and secondly, will this make her sick, and thirdly, could this have been the cause of her illness that we just cured???:confused:

[krislewis3]

Dogs do this, especially mothers of puppies. It's not really good for them. Sometimes it is said to be a sign of some nutrition deficiency.

Most fish mistake poop for food, but usually spit it back out. Does she spit the poops back out or swallow them?

I have seen my other discus mistake poop for food, and spit it out right away, but this BD actually looks for bristle nose pleco poop, and eats it with relish!! She LIKES it. Perhaps she thinks it's a black worm, since it looks like one! I was hoping that someone in this forum had experienced this behavior, and could advise me!! Kris

[israelillo81]

It's time to get rid
If that bristle nose


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[krislewis3]

It's time to get rid
If that bristle nose


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I posted the same question in the General Discus Discussion, and found one member here that has the same problem! The advise given to her, was that it ok as long as the bristle nose pleco is healthy! Some even say that in the wild, it is a natural food source, and that it's not uncommon to see this behavior in the animal kingdom! So, since the pleco, and the discus have been tank mates for at least a year...I'm thinking I'm ok with it!! Kris

[israelillo81]

Kris, how is your blue diamond doing?


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[israelillo81]

I supose something adverse happened to the BD since no more post on this blog have taken place


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[krislewis3]

After curing this fish last Feb., she has stopped eating again just 3 days ago. The only thing in common with the first episode, is the introduction of San Fransisco beefhart,. That must be the culprit! My question is, if it is from the beef hart, what would the diagnosis and treatment be???? Please advise.....Kris

[pcsb23]

The first thing to do is to stop feeding the beefheart if that is believed to be the cause. Epsom salts for a day just in case it has caused a blockage, after that try things like frozen blood worm or live brine shrimp

[krislewis3]

I did try the Epsom salt, to no avail. How long should I wait before I medicate? The last time this happened I used metro, and then antibiotic, which did the trick! Kris

[nc0gnet0]

I did try the Epsom salt, to no avail. How long should I wait before I medicate? The last time this happened I used metro, and then antibiotic, which did the trick! Kris

To avoid having to read through 16 pages of stuff it might be better to start a new thread with a new questionnaire.

[musicmarn1]

Mine all have a poop party as soon as the lights come on in the morning. I wait an hour to feed while poo is flying everywhere. Start watching as soon as the lights come on and don't feed for about an hour. You'll probably see some action.



LOL animal lovers, love the poop!!!! its soo true :)

[pcsb23]

If it hasn't eaten for three or four days I wouldn't be medicating just yet. If the beefheart you fed it was the cause then a few days on different foods may be all that's needed. With Epsom salts if there has been no result in a day then it is unlikely that there is a blockage. Given the gentle nature of the med it is always worth trying, it will act as a purgative anyway and that can sometimes be the trigger for them to eat. You don't need to worry about removing the med either, just continue with normal water changes.

Just keep feeding foods it has eaten previously, I'm never 100% sure why a non eater suddenly starts eating nor why they suddenly stop eating. I tend to try and maintain optimal conditions and feed trusted foods.

[krislewis3]

Paul...in the above advise, when you refer to the 'med', are you speaking of the Epsom salt, or the metro?

[pcsb23]

Paul...in the above advise, when you refer to the 'med', are you speaking of the Epsom salt, or the metro?Epsom salts

[brewmaster15]

After curing this fish last Feb., she has stopped eating again just 3 days ago. The only thing in common with the first episode, is the introduction of San Fransisco beefhart,. That must be the culprit! My question is, if it is from the beef hart, what would the diagnosis and treatment be???? Please advise.....Kris

Kris,
Has the fish that stopped eating passed any feces? Definetly pitch that Beefheart and make sure the tank is spotless.. Don't know if you have any substrate in the tank,. but if you do,.. clean it well.. If the BH rots and they eat it...it could lead to issues like you are seeing. Often the fish in question will start passing white feces, and bloat up. The initial treatment is epsom salt as Paul indicated.... Antibiotics like kanamycin and Metro combined are useful, if the Epsom salt does not help or the condition worsens.

hth,
al