Something in the water

[frenchbrit]

So last night I did the normal daily 95% water change. Same routine, water temp the same everything that I can test for, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...all normal. As soon as the water was done changing I noticed the fish were gasping at the top of the tank as if they couldn't breathe. They darkened like they do if stressed and so I changed another 1/2 of the tank with the rest of my aged water. That seemed to mitigate the stress to some degree but the fish still were not acting normally. This morning my largest White Butterfly/pigeon was dead on the bottom of the tank and the others were still stressed out. I did another water change and they appear to be doing much better now, although show no interest in food still.
I don't know what was in the water but something must have changed in the water chemistry for a day and it was almost immediate. My guess is extra chlorine ? Anyway just wanted to let you know how quick it can happen and there is really nothing to really test for or do ahead of the event. I am glad for the remaining discus appearing ok and hopefully I caught them in time and they will continue to improve.
Steve

[Skip]

What conditioner u putting un water.

[Wes]

I bet it was API. A friend did a large water change using API Tap Water Conditioner and something like happened to him.

[OC Discus]

So sorry for your loss. Could the dechlor maybe not have mixed good or been left out accidentally? I'm always afraid I'm going to forget to put it in a new batch of water. Is your aged water circulating and heating? Could you have forgotten the dechlor?


So last night I did the normal daily 95% water change. Same routine, water temp the same everything that I can test for, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate...all normal. As soon as the water was done changing I noticed the fish were gasping at the top of the tank as if they couldn't breathe. They darkened like they do if stressed and so I changed another 1/2 of the tank with the rest of my aged water. That seemed to mitigate the stress to some degree but the fish still were not acting normally. This morning my largest White Butterfly/pigeon was dead on the bottom of the tank and the others were still stressed out. I did another water change and they appear to be doing much better now, although show no interest in food still.
I don't know what was in the water but something must have changed in the water chemistry for a day and it was almost immediate. My guess is extra chlorine ? Anyway just wanted to let you know how quick it can happen and there is really nothing to really test for or do ahead of the event. I am glad for the remaining discus appearing ok and hopefully I caught them in time and they will continue to improve.
Steve

[dennin7418]

Why would dechlorinator affect the fish...I thought it would just kill off your bio filter and you'd have to recycle your tank....not poison your fish? (YES i know Nitrite and Ammonia will rise due to the filter damage but it wouldn't be immediate.)

Do you have well water? I had a similar experience. I did a 50% change and noticed them all at the top. I changed another 25% and turned the airstone on and they were fine.

Maybe this is a dumb thought but is it possible to add aged water that was de-oxygenated by an aerobic bacteria???

[OC Discus]

It is the lack of dechlorinator that affects the fish because most tap water contains harmful chlorine.

API dechlorinator is a gel. It may not have mixed thoroughly with the water.

[Wes]

Don't know if it was API but other dechlorinators may act like it on large water changes if your water company uses chloramines.

API TAPWATER CONDITIONER
This is a very basic aquarium and pond water conditioner that is sometimes all an aquarium or pond owner needs to use.
This product contains Sodium Thiosulfate and nothing more which is a basic yet effective chlorine remover and Redox Reducer which make this product a popular and cost effective aquatic conditioner.

“Tap Water Conditioner” does not remove chloramines, however it breaks the chlorine/ammonia bond releasing the ammonia ions, so this product should not be used with larger water changes over 20% in all but the healthiest most established of nitrifying filters in ones pond or aquarium, however if chlorine is all your water company uses, “no worries”.
This product also does not aid with the addition electrolytes like other somewhat less basic conditioners such as “Start Right” nor does it aid with either natural slime coat or add a synthetic slime coat like many other water conditioners.

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html#tapwater

[Skip]

No need to over think.. until op responds

[dirtyplants]

thiosulfate reduces the hypochlorite (active ingredient in bleach) and in so doing becomes oxidized to sulfate. The complete reaction is:
4 NaClO + Na2S2O3 + 2 NaOH → 4 NaCl + 2 Na2SO4 + H2O
To dechlorinate tap water for aquariums or treat effluent from waste water treatments prior to release into rivers. Treatment of tap water requires between 0.1 grams and 0.3 grams of pentahydrated (crystalline) sodium thiosulfate per 10 liters of water.


Amquel Plus adds electrolytes, which is an interesting discussion of additives and vitamins added directly to the water source with regards to absorption of electrolytes through skin and taken into the gills. Electrolytes much in need when fish are stressed out.

[OC Discus]

Im glad someone majored in chemistry. I sure didn't.

[dirtyplants]

My chemistry is long tucked somewhere back with school requirements. I remember enough to hobble together some understanding, but when comparing treatments out there it is interesting how many products are basically the same and getting to basics (chemical compound) can save money.:o

[frenchbrit]

thanks for all the responses. Here is the answer to most of the questions posed. Yes I added water conditioner. I use Prime. I added it toward the end of the water change rather than at the very beginning which is what I normally do. It is possible that because I added it at the end that it didn't mix as thoroughly as when I do it at the beginning. That is the only thing I can guess as a diffference from normal routine. Water is always aerated and temperature was the same as tank temperature. Discus were acting as if they couldn't breathe so I suspect chloramines as well.
My discus are doing somehwhat better tonight. 1 is still acting as though it is having difficulty breathing, 2 others are breathing normally but no interest in eating and the other 6 show varying degrees of appetite. I am hopeful that possibly I caught problem as soon as I could and mitigated the damage. Only time will tell and I count myself lucky that things were not as bad as they could have been. I thought that it was odd the largest discus was the one that succumbed rather than the smallest but...
Steve

[OC Discus]

Hopefully the worst is over Steve. Good lesson for us all.

I mix water in a tub and put the prime in first. That way the circulation of the water running into the tub continues to mix it the whole time.

[dirtyplants]

I have left tap water run before adding prime, and fish did not react in an adverse way. Although I would not recommend it.
I think maybe ph shock may have something to do with it. Have you tested your ph from the tap directly and then aged it to see if ph changes? Prime reacts immediately with contact to water.

[xmas_dude]

I had a similar experience recently which was resolved by doubling the prime dose during wc. Not sure at this point but must be water dept adding something new or increasing chloramine levels at start of season. I also increased aeration at that time by adding power head for more surface agitation in the tank.

Hope things get better for you soon.

Sunil

[BODYDUB]

You said you aerated your water right? Maybe something was put in the water aging barrel? Kids?????

[aquadon2222]

Daily 95% water change seems unnecessary at best and a little risky at worst. Clean water is of course paramount, but beyond that fish like stable water, too. Anyone?

[lipadj46]

Daily 95% water change seems unnecessary at best and a little risky at worst. Clean water is of course paramount, but beyond that fish like stable water, too. Anyone?


you realize this is a discus forum LOL?

[OC Discus]

One risk of 95% wc is if there is a problem with the source water it will be 95%. 50%-75% daily might be safer.


Daily 95% water change seems unnecessary at best and a little risky at worst. Clean water is of course paramount, but beyond that fish like stable water, too. Anyone?

[frenchbrit]

Ph coming out of the tap is 7.5-6 and after aging one day is 7.6-8 so so I don't think ph is the issue. I lost one other fish yesterday a 2.5 inch Blue Diamond. The other fish appear to be recovering although not all their appetites are back to normal. I am hopeful the worst is over. Their coloring has returned to normal and they no longer act stressed. I count this as a lesson learned and if the fish's appetites return to normal over the next week I will consider myself lucky to have caught the problem early and it didn't happen on a busy day when I don't have time to do more than a water change and run.
Steve

[Ryan]

Steve,

1. You said you age your water. What do you age it in? Is it heated and aerated, or just heated? How long do you age it?

2. Since you're dechlorinating, I'm assuming you are using a municipal water supply. Has your city flushed lines? They sometimes do this in the winter months.

3. When adding dechlorinator, always add it first before the new water. If you add dechlorinator after refilling, your fish are swimming around in untreated, chlorinated water for the duration of the water change. If your city doubled its chlorine dose or added chloramines, and you didn't neutralize them, that could be one of the issues. Adding it at the beginning of the water change allows for the new water to be neutralized the second it starts mixing into the tank. If you are only using the exact dosage for your number of gallons, I'd suggest doubling it. I double dose every tank with Prime/Safe, just in case.

Another thing to remember is that in the winter months, when the water is colder, it holds more dissolved gases. If you notice tons of microbubbles on your glass and all your filters/heaters (and even on the slime coat of your fish), chances are this is an issue. Should the water be saturated with CO2, there may be far less oxygen and therefore your fish will basically suffocate. This is why a lot of people aerate their water and "off-gas" it before use. Also, when CO2 off-gasses, the pH can swing wildly, which will also stress your fish. Allow me to quote a couple posts from Ryan Karcher and Al on this issue:


The micro bubbles are because of the cold tap water coming into the house which is warmer. The colder the water, the more of a gas it can hold (N, O2, CO2, etc). The warmer it gets, the less it can hold. Because the water warms up, it can no longer hold those gases in solution and releases them as bubbles. Now this doesnt happen while the water is in the pipes, even if it is heated because the water supply is under pressure. When you have 40+ psi in a water supply line, gases can become super saturated and still be in solution. As soon as that super saturated water comes out of the hose/pipe, boom....instant bubbles.

Under ideal situations, the water is aged to prevent this from ever being an issue. But in a point of use type situation, there isnt a whole lot that can be done, aside from a DIY degasser of sorts. Even then, it is no guarantee it will fix your issue because you dont know what gases are coming out of solution, and at what saturation levels they were at while under pressure.

-Ryan


Agree 100 % with Ryan here. The only thing I'll add is that whether its a stress factor or not often depends on the volume of water you change... I have to age my water... for fry...no question there or I WILL lose them...been there done that....but I can easily change 25%-30% of my water from tap directly and non-fry are generally fine. ....do more than that and I stress them out....

If you are dealing with gas in the water you should take some pH readings ( out of the tap verses aged 12-24 hrs with aeration)... if the gas is CO2 you risk not only the stress of the gas...but wide pH swings... For example here I have a well.. lots of CO2... my water is on the average 6.5 out of the tap due largely to the gas... off gassed by aging and my water is a whopping 7.8 so to do large wcs without aerating is to subject the fish in my case to a daily swing of pH 6.5- 7.8...not exactly ideal IMO!

hth,
al

I notice that a lot more people on fish forums post about issues with their water in the wintertime. It's usually related to either the cold water/microbubbles or the fact that cities flush/treat their lines differently in cold weather. See if you can narrow it down to one of those two things. You may want to call your city's utility department and just ask if they changed something over the past couple of days.

[frenchbrit]

Ryan,
thanks for the information. Very informative. I am fairly confident that it was the timing of when I added Prime to the water which caused the issue. I do age and aerate my water in a white Brute 55 gallon container and a spare 55 gallon fish tank that I have. I age for 24 hours.
I have not checked with the municipal water supply to see if they recently flushed lines, and I am on city water.
Steve

[Ryan]

Steve,

If your city used regular chlorine, it would most likely dissipate as you aged and aerated the water. The problem is that more and more municipalities are switching to other forms of disinfectants like chloramine. This will not evaporate out of the water after aging, and so it requires a dechlorinator like Prime or Safe.

I would almost bet your city flushed the lines with extra chloramine.

[aquadon2222]

you realize this is a discus forum LOL?

Yes, but do most professionals change that much every day? I've heard 50% is more typical. No?

[Ryan]

Yes, but do most professionals change that much every day? I've heard 50% is more typical. No?

It depends on stocking and feeding routines, but most commercial breeders do at least 100% daily water changes. They completely drain the tanks until the fish are lying flat on the bottom and then refill with aged water. Most hobbyists will do around 50% per day. I do 80 - 90% because I overstock and have to keep the nitrates in check. The more water/less fish you have, the less water you realistically have to change. It's a balancing act.