parasite? fungus? help!

[Libby911]

Ok discus gurus, I could really use some help here. I'm fairly new to discus and have 9 adult wilds (thanks, snookn21!) in a 210g, daily 30% water changes, water parameters all good, tank is a pfs-substrate tank with some sword plants and neons and cory cat tankmates, kept at 84 degrees, very well filtered. One of my fish developed some issues with pectoral fins - one fin isn't moving and has whitish edges (fin rot?) and now the other pectoral fin is showing similar. Fish is darkening and isn't eating. Another fish has what looks like a slightly more fuzzy version of ich spots, small pinhead-sized slightly fluffy spots and excessive slime production. This fish is still eating and behaving normally. I've started treatment with paraguard thinking it would address fin rot or external parasite issues. I'm not entirely sure what I'm dealing with, as it seems a bit unlike anything I've run into with my other non-discus tanks. Any ideas what I'm dealing with and how to best treat it?

[Elliots]

Did you get your fish recently from John (Snookin21)? If you did call him up and ask him what to do. If not maybe call him anyway. I bought some fish from him and I had a similar problem. He told me to add aquarium salt but I do not remember what dosage and he may have also suggested formalin but I could not find formalin. The problem I had, fin fungus, was not due to John. I was told by two other people the fungus was due to them being wilds that were shipped. I did also use a "Herbal" remedy that took time but worked. I did not try the usual fungus remedies because I have Loaches in the tank and they are scaleless fish who are sometimes killed by some remedies.

[dirtyplants]

No pictures, could be ich or other fungus, fungus is usually considered secondary meaning you need to watch and look for something else. Formalin should work for external parasites, check your ph these are wilds so I would be concerned about adjustment to your water. John would be a good person to talk with. Pat and other wild people might have some suggestions.

[Libby911]

Thanks for the replies. Since my background is planted tanks I've never tried aquarium salt, but the sword plants in my discus tank should be ok with it. The paraguard I'm using is an -aldehyde like formalin so if formalin would help then hopefully I'll see some results with the paraguard. I may give it a few days of continued treatment and see what happens. I hadn't considered ph issues but probably should have -it's not an issue in my other tanks but their occupants are more hardy and unlike my discus tank I'm only making weekly water changes there. My discus tank ph is regularly @ 7.2, but my tap water (which I add directly to tank with a dechlorinator) has a ph @ 8.4 and a moderately high GH and KH. Will check my ph values before and after water changes and see if I'm getting a large ph swing. I'd hate to have to start using a RO blend for water but it's much better than having sick or stressed fish. I'll shoot John an email as well and see if he has any insight too-I'm sure he knows his wilds and any issues that pop up from shipping or newbie ignorance. Thanks again!

[Second Hand Pat]

How long have you had the wilds? If not long please check your ammonia to check for a mini-cycle in progress.

[Libby911]

Thanks Pat. I should have thought to check that before posting. I acquired the wilds in november when John's imports started up again - beautiful heckels. The tank was new then but I seeded the filter with media from another tank and kept close tabs on ammonia & nitrate for the first few weeks. Ammonia readings are showing zero now but I'll keep an eye on that for the next few days and make sure ammo poisoning isn't a problem. I ran into an unexpected mini-cyle in a planted rainbowfish tank once and it was a real disaster - compounded by my not expecting it in an established tank and taking too long to figure out the problem and address it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Libby, I know you are doing 30% daily but you might up it to 50% if possible. Check your nitrates also. I would not worry about ph at this point but for long term a lower ph is better for heckels. Also pictures might help of the fish and tank.
Pat

[Libby911]

apparently 2 days of paraguard hasn't helped - it's spreading to my other heckels. Photos attached. http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/jonblume/photo1_zps5e63b185.jpghttp://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/jonblume/photo3_zps1657a98f.jpg http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab91/jonblume/photo3_zps1657a98f.jpg

[Libby911]

It appears to be spreading to other heckels now. I uploaded a post with some pics - should be visible once the moderators get a chance to review it.

[Second Hand Pat]

That almost looks like ick but think it is too big.

[Elliots]

Looks like fungus to me. Ich is more round in shape and also this looks like it is growing off the fish. Call John and ask him what to do.

[OC Discus]

Hey Libby, sorry about the problems. Just a couple of questions/observations. The ph swing from tap 7.2 to tank 8.4 is quite a leap. It could be enough to stress the fish. The parasites, bacteria, and fungus are already in the tank. Stress makes the fish break out.

Formalin is one of the main ingredients in Quick Cure found at Walmart or any fish store. The two ingredients in Quick Cure, Formalin and Malachite Green, are known to be among the best and fastest killers of ick. I've used it for fast and safe relief. The photos do look like ick, or something similar. The Quick Cure will probably be your fastest solution.

If the ph is swinging over 10 points from the tap to the tank, you might want to age the water to let it swing before you put it in the tank. You can age a few gallons in a bucket with an air stone and heater to see if it rises.

Also, frayed fins are a good indication of water quality issues. Possible helps would be (after Quick Cure Treatment) to

1) break down and flush out your filters to remove excess bacteria (all but filter sponges)
2) Do a few larger water changes- 50-75% with deep substrate vacuum to remove built up nasties.
3) Automation would really help with larger water changes- pump vs buckets
4) If possible, with adults, maintain a couple of large water changes- 75% weekly
5) If plants are showing signs of disease, move them to a quarantine tank or remove them.

As a minimum,

1) Remove carbon and start the Quick Cure according to directions
2) Once clear for 24 hours, do a 50-75% water change and put carbon in filters for 24 hours
3) Remove carbon after 24 hours before it leaches back into the tank
4) Maintain ongoing larger water changes if possible, even once per week, 75% w/deep cleaning, wipe glass, heaters, filters, etc.


Thanks for the replies. Since my background is planted tanks I've never tried aquarium salt, but the sword plants in my discus tank should be ok with it. The paraguard I'm using is an -aldehyde like formalin so if formalin would help then hopefully I'll see some results with the paraguard. I may give it a few days of continued treatment and see what happens. I hadn't considered ph issues but probably should have -it's not an issue in my other tanks but their occupants are more hardy and unlike my discus tank I'm only making weekly water changes there. My discus tank ph is regularly @ 7.2, but my tap water (which I add directly to tank with a dechlorinator) has a ph @ 8.4 and a moderately high GH and KH. Will check my ph values before and after water changes and see if I'm getting a large ph swing. I'd hate to have to start using a RO blend for water but it's much better than having sick or stressed fish. I'll shoot John an email as well and see if he has any insight too-I'm sure he knows his wilds and any issues that pop up from shipping or newbie ignorance. Thanks again!

[dirtyplants]

These I beleive are external parasites, not fungus, as they grow they come out from the skin, almost look like worms, like anchor worms but white in color, I have seen this in the LFS, they drop off after a period of time. If you have plants, pull out use a 1% bleach solution dip for two minutes and then rinse. QT fish treat for external parasites, formalin and M. Green as OC has indicated.


1) Remove carbon and start the Quick Cure according to directions
2) Once clear for 24 hours, do a 50-75% water change and put carbon in filters for 24 hours
3) Remove carbon after 24 hours before it leaches back into the tank
4) Maintain ongoing larger water changes if possible, even once per week, 75% w/deep cleaning, wipe glass, heaters, filters, etc.


I would also add salt if not in Quick Cure.
As indicated by others large water changes would be beneficial in the health and in reducing the parasites from the water column. Because these are wilds, I am concerned about flagellants which are found in the waters of the Amazon. Did you treat for worms and flags in your QT tank?

[Libby911]

Dirtyplants, what you described seems to be what just happened. About 6 hours after I took those photos, 75% or more of the white spots were gone. Earlier I was worried it was a fungus because of the not-quite-ich spot pattern but the falling-off spots seems to suggest a parasite. Good news I suppose, as it shouldn't be too hard to treat. Will do the QT+formalin+malachite green+salt routine, increase my water changes, bleach dip the plants and make sure my water quality stays up to par. I've treated for worms and flagellants when I introduced the discus, but probably not a bad idea to do again at some point. We'll see where it goes from there, but with any luck this should help me get ahead of the problem.

Serious thankyous to everyone who's helped me with this thus far. I'm really grateful for all the good advice. Y'all rock the casbah.

[dirtyplants]

Let us know how the treatment goes. I am looking into wilds and I am concerned about QT time and treatment. If this goes well, watch fish carefully, watch eating, and any change in behavior. Unfortunately your experience is my education. :(

[OC Discus]

When they fall off they hatch out scads of babies that reattach and multiply. Quick Cure over 3-5 days will kill the babies before they can reattach.


Dirtyplants, what you described seems to be what just happened. About 6 hours after I took those photos, 75% or more of the white spots were gone. Earlier I was worried it was a fungus because of the not-quite-ich spot pattern but the falling-off spots seems to suggest a parasite. Good news I suppose, as it shouldn't be too hard to treat. Will do the QT+formalin+malachite green+salt routine, increase my water changes, bleach dip the plants and make sure my water quality stays up to par. I've treated for worms and flagellants when I introduced the discus, but probably not a bad idea to do again at some point. We'll see where it goes from there, but with any luck this should help me get ahead of the problem.

Serious thankyous to everyone who's helped me with this thus far. I'm really grateful for all the good advice. Y'all rock the casbah.

[dirtyplants]

OC do you know what these parasites are? I have not found them yet. I have seen this a lot as of late. No one I have talked with seems to know what they are.

[OC Discus]

I think its ick. I just treated a case of it in my tank not long ago.

Other symptoms like frayed fins and cloudy eyes can just be the result of poor water conditions. Fungus can also result. Quick cure and water changes should clear it all up.

[dirtyplants]

Not so sure it is ich. I have a long experience with ich. These seem to be tubular in shape as they get bigger, when they get to be an 1/8 inch in length they fall off.

frayed fins and cloudy eyes can just be the result of poor water conditions. Fungus can also result. Yes this is true but frayed fins can also be related to ph, cloudy eyes also can be related to bacteria infection. Slim drop, clenched fins, ragged, dark in color, not eating, could be bacteria infection. Sense they are wilds i would not rule anything out. So I will be most interested how Libby's treatment goes and to see if good quality water totally clears every thing up.

[Libby911]

I've been keeping fish for years and would like to think I'd recognize ich. The appearance looks different to me (more as dirtyplants described, a bit wider and longer than I've seen ich appear), but I could easily be wrong and I have never seen ich on Discus before to compare it with. Interestingly, the mystery parasite only affected the wilds in my tank so far- my domestic discus, tetras, cories, etc. show no visible symptoms. Not sure what caused the fin issue with the one discus - I'm inclined to think it wasn't water quality as the filter and substrate are uber-clean and I keep up on water changes but just because I think it doesn't make it so (I'd feel like an idiot if I had a water quality issue and who wants to think of themselves as an idiot?). At any rate, possible water issues are definitely being addressed now. As of today the fish with the fin issue has one of the pectoral fins looking fine, the other fin is severely damaged - it's maybe 1/4 of the normal size and looks like cellophane after it's been held too close to a flame, kind of crumpled/lumpy on the edges. Mystery parasite doesn't appear to have reattached on discus or other fish. Will definitely post the results of the treatment. Thanks again to all for the great advice, my fish and I are seriously grateful.

[dirtyplants]

I have just started seeing this parasite a lot on discus, I had to look and look because a first glance it looks like ich. After if grows a bit it seems to come from or under the skin, it seems tubular in shape and grows to about 1/8 of an inch and then drops off. If you look at it closely it is worm like in shape. They do only seem to be on discus from what I have seen. Unless if on other fish they just can't be seen. I have tried to get close to observe these but can't get close enough. I have never had these yet, knock on wood, but have seen in tanks at LFS on discus. Also I beleive Libby keeps her temp up to ensure no proliferation of ich is possible.

[OC Discus]

Hey Coree and Libby. It could be something besides Ick. I'm posting below a picture of a fish that had a stubborn case of ick that cleared up with high temp and salt then came back a couple weeks later after a heater failure. The spots are not as tubular, but on close examination, some of them are tubular. Also, mine could have been at an earlier stage.

Either way, the Quick Cure worked well for me. In 3 days all spots were gone and I only used 1/2 dose and regular temp. It hasn't returned, but I have since added UV unit and do bi-weekly 75% water changes wiping down glass and deep sand vac. I plunge the vac to the bottom of the sand, let it rise about 3" into the tube, then lift it up. The sand falls back down, but sucks up anything in it. Quick Cure would probably work equally well on another parasite similar to ick.

Some of my fin issues, on the tail, have been the result of chasing, nipping, and some bacterial infection. That cleared up on its own without medication as water quality improved and UV added.

Keep us posted Libby.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=80824&d=1384721778

[dirtyplants]

Yes, they(pictures) do look a bit alike,
but check this out OC, look at the patterns on the body, your ich picture is random, different sizes, shapes, and all over the fish. Look at Libby's, the pattern seems to be more regular, shapes more like each other and absolutely no parasites on the fins. Besides I beleive her fish are kept in the mid eighties, so that may also be a detriment to the proliferation of the ich. I have never seen this with so many on a fish, it is usually much smaller in quantities and I have never seen it on any fins. It could just be the pictures but I gather from Libby's response they look odd for and ich out break also.

[OC Discus]

I'm no expert on disease by any means Coree. Ick may have a first cousin that is very similar. I do believe it is a parasite in the same class and should respond to Quick Cure. I understand that these parasites are relatively easy to treat, but can be deadly if not treated. Hoping for a good outcome.

[dirtyplants]

LOL no doubt a parasite and should respond to quick cure, but I want to know what it is! The curiosity is just killing me.

[Libby911]

just by way of a quick update, the vast majority of the white spots seem to have fallen off, but a few fish still have maybe 3 or 4 on them. I will continue the quick cure for another few days and see how it goes. Hopefully the white spots will be eradicated by then. Will post a follow-up in a couple days, hopefully with good news.

[dirtyplants]

Libby if quick cure does not eradicate the parasites I would ask Pat to make some recommendations, as she is all too familiar with wild discus parasites. Did you notice any small holes, or red spots on the body after the drop off?

[Second Hand Pat]

Coree, not with this one. Here are some links from U of Fla...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88637-Fish-Parasite-Links

[Scales]

Sounds like they picked up a virus or something from the other domestic fish they're with. I had one of my discus do this when I believe I cross contaminated water from a tank full of jewel cichlids I babysat for my neighbor while he resealed his tank. I didn't treat with any thing but water changes and she slowly recovered. Looked pretty bad at times, some of those puss like pimples that grew from her and fell off, darkened up a bit and was breathing heavy. Lasted about a week or two.

[Augusto Gadelha]

I had something similar in one of my wilds, the filaments appeared from one day to another in an already debilitated fish, but after a regular 20% water change and up the temperature from 28ºC to 30ºC they disapeared... In just one day, but the fish is still very bad :(

81275

[dirtyplants]

Dang I want to know what that is. Did you notice holes or spots or red marks after the fall off?

[dirtyplants]

Dang I want to know what that is. Did you notice holes or spots or red marks after the fall off?

Coree, not with this one. Here are some links from U of Fla...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Parasite-Links
Will check this out Pat, thanks!

[OC Discus]

Augusto,

How long ago was that picture taken? Is the fish still alive? That's bad.


I had something similar in one of my wilds, the filaments appeared from one day to another in an already debilitated fish, but after a regular 20% water change and up the temperature from 28ºC to 30ºC they disapeared... In just one day, but the fish is still very bad :(

81275

[Libby911]

Wow, and I thought my fish had problems! What Augusto posted seems similar to what I was seeing, only mine never got worse than the pic I posted earlier. My fish seem to be doing better now. Until yesterday I had a few with only one spot on 'em, but all seem to have fallen off now. I'll treat for another couple days and keep an eye on them to make sure I don't have any newly hatched parasites that didn't get eradicated re-attaching to the fish. And to belatedly answer Coree's question, when they dropped off I could see some slight marks - nothing I'd characterize as red or a visible hole, but it was noticeable in the slime coat. Seems to be gone now. So far, it appears the quick cure solves the problem (fingers crossed), although it was more resilient to it than I would have expected. Will post a new update after a few days.

[dirtyplants]

I suspect those marks are were the parasites came out, I am not sure about this but I beleive the parasite enters the fish, and is not visual by the naked eye at the entry times, then emerges from the skin and then drops off. Do massive water WC changes to limit any free swimming parasites as much as possible. I don't feel your trouble was pimple based. I think your water quality was not bad enough to have the pimple out break. I really think this is a parasite and not ich.

[Augusto Gadelha]

OC Discus,

The picture was taken one week ago, the fish is still alive and back to eat normally, but it's still very skinny and with a big white spot...

81325


Augusto,

How long ago was that picture taken? Is the fish still alive? That's bad.

[OC Discus]

He looks bad, but much better than before. Hopefully tlc will bring him around.


OC Discus,

The picture was taken one week ago, the fish is still alive and back to eat normally, but it's still very skinny and with a big white spot...

81325

[Libby911]

Apparently this parasite is pretty resilient to formalin & malachite green. I have a few fish that still have a white spot or two and it looks like many are producing more slime coat than usual. And to top it off, I saw a new white spot (maybe 1/16" in length) on the side of one of my domestic discus, which previously had no symptoms at all. I've doubled my daily WC regime to 60%/day and added aquarium salt. I don't know of anything that would be more effective that formalin for external parasites, but I'm concerned that ongoing formalin treatment is probably not very good for the fish. But then again, I suppose parasite infestation isn't good for fish either and I don't really have a backup plan. Anyone know if Praziquel works on external parasites as well as internal ones? Would a product like PraziPro be worth trying?

[dirtyplants]

Prazi is good for only certain type of parasites, works on gill flukes, formalin should be more effective. PP is the next hardest hitting med. but care must be given not to over medicate. I would not do salt any more as it does remove excess slime sometimes the parasite attached to the slime gets removed also, but also leaves the fish susceptible to invasions. How long has it been? Right now do the massive water changes to remove as many in the water column make sure you are bleaching your water hose you don't re-infect. Then you may have to consider doing another round of formalin or PP. I can not help with dosage of the PP. I would give the fish a couple of days rest with just clean massive water changes then go another round of formalin. You will need to keep up the massive water changes for a while and clean the substrate as best as possible. You are probably killing these guys but new ones are hatching. So WC very important.

[OC Discus]

Libby,

I'm dealing with the same thing now. Quick Cure recommends a 25% wc on the fourth day, after three treatments, then another four day cycle if needed. I was using 1/2 dose for the sake of my cardinals, which worked before, but did not work this time. Also, if you change more than 25% of the water, you are removing more of the medication than recommended. Today, I did a 50% wc, treated with one drop per gallon, then added enough extra to cover the extra water removed.

For example- In a 55g tank, 3 days treatment would be 165 drops. Since I replaced 25% more water than recommended, I added back 25% more quick cure- 25% of 165 drops is about 40 drops- that is the amount that should not have been taken out- so I added an extra 40 drops to get the strength back to where it should have been. I still have spots after 3 days of 1/2 treatment and 4 days of full treatment.

One reason you may be seeing new spots is that the parasites attach to the fish and cannot be affected by medication until they grow, form a cyst, drop off, divide and go free swimming. It is only at the free swimming stage that Quick Cure can kill them. Don't give up on the treatment. Salt is not recommended with quick cure, or high temp above 86. It can take up to ten days of treatment to for the youngest free swimmer that attached to the fish to go through the whole cycle so its babies can be killed. The parent dies in the process. If you are changing more than 25% water after three days, increase the amount of Quick Cure you add on the 4th day to make up for the extra water.

Keep us posted.

BTW- Since this is my 3rd or 4th bout of ick, I have removed all the sand substrate, sterilized my two older hob filters (even the sponge), and wipe down the glass sides and bottom at each water change. The fish are tolerating the med ok- all are actively eating, but the blues are darkened in color. If any look like they are about to die, I will do a quick 50-75% water change, but don't think that will happen.

Also, continue treatment 48 hours after the last visible spot is gone. Some of the parasites can be hidden in the gills or other places where you cant see them. If you remove the med too soon, they will survive and repopulate your tank.


Apparently this parasite is pretty resilient to formalin & malachite green. I have a few fish that still have a white spot or two and it looks like many are producing more slime coat than usual. And to top it off, I saw a new white spot (maybe 1/16" in length) on the side of one of my domestic discus, which previously had no symptoms at all. I've doubled my daily WC regime to 60%/day and added aquarium salt. I don't know of anything that would be more effective that formalin for external parasites, but I'm concerned that ongoing formalin treatment is probably not very good for the fish. But then again, I suppose parasite infestation isn't good for fish either and I don't really have a backup plan. Anyone know if Praziquel works on external parasites as well as internal ones? Would a product like PraziPro be worth trying?

[OC Discus]

Libby,

Just a footnote: You might want to get a few more opinions about adding more than the recommended dose of Quick Cure at one time. I'm not sure if it should be spread out to prevent some kind of skin irritation.

[dirtyplants]

As you know I don't beleive this is ich, nor do I beleive high temp. will kill this. After a three days or a week of just massive water changes you will need to make a decision, formalin again or PP. You are not new to this so I trust you can make a judgement call on how dire the situation is. I would use PP in sever cases. Quick Cure is a diluted med. so doing another round of that is recommended in stubborn cases. Keep posting this is an interesting looking creature.

[OC Discus]

I took some pictures of mine today. In one pic the spots seemed tubular, but the pic was blurry. After taking dozens of pics I got some still shots and the spots seemed smaller.

Libby, is it possible the fish was moving, making the spots look tubular?


OC do you know what these parasites are? I have not found them yet. I have seen this a lot as of late. No one I have talked with seems to know what they are.

[dirtyplants]

If you can take a magnifying glass, and look at the parasites. Ich is a protozoan which develops a a hard crusty shell around it, Those are the white spots we see. If it moves and if you can see eyes then I would say you have some sort of fluke. The problem being that flukes generally are classified by their size of no larger then 1mm. Flukes run under the category of Gyrodactylus flat worms. So the question is under a magnifying glass can you see it move?

[OC Discus]

Thanks Coree. I don't have a magnifying glass. Do flukes respond to quick cure or is something different recommended? Also, to they present in spots that look like ick on the fins and body?

[dirtyplants]

Most flukes are very tiny, but I have read cases where flukes were large enough.
Formalin is the chemical of choice, 37% recommended. You will find it under many names. I do not know how much formalin is in Quick Cure, I do know they recommend treating twice in stubborn situations. Prazi works well for flat worms.
Flukes reproduce amazingly fast one baby at a time each baby being like an adult and capable of having babies and the babies take care of the babies, mongenean. They usually crawl on the surface of the slime coat. Not all attack the gills, but once they do the damage is irreversible. They carry a digestive fluid (proteolytic enzymes) and bacteria, plus protozoans in their mouths that aid in the break down of the slime coat and skin of the fish. That is why you may have to treat for secondary infections as well during your course of treatment. Then they suck it all in. In a closed system like an aquarium they multiply incredibly fast. Their are over 400 types of flukes both micro and macro. It is a possibility that when you can't rid ich with salt and heat then maybe it really is not ich. As I have mentioned in the other post using a magnifying glass will allow you to distinguish between flukes and ich so some do look a lot like ich. I need to investigate this possibility more. There is a book on flat worms but way out of my price range, it looks very good, from the samples I have read. I beleive the macro will look much like worms to the human eye but very tiny, like ich but more uniform in shape, attacking the body mostly for the slime coat rich food. Compounded by everything the immune system spikes and their is a reaction to the invasion causing something like an allergic reaction from the fish.
I am looking for more informations on the fluke types, but then we start getting into research books which cost hundreds of dollars. I don't have that to spend on worm books, I need other things and a good powerful microscope is one of them.

[Libby911]

Well, I learned something today. I've been keeping up on the larger water changes and giving the fish a break from formalin to see what happened, and two fish still showed a few (1-3) spots on them. And to answer OC's earlier question, they still looked larger more long than I'd have expected, but not coming out to the 1/16" or more size that I saw earlier. Since quick cure (formalin) suggests doing a 25% water change and re-dosing if parasites aren't eradicated (which makes sense, since a re-infestation isn't all that uncommon because of parasite life cycles), and I've been doing massive WCs and taken a several day break, I thought I'd give 'em some more quick cure since it certainly wasn't spreading at a scary rate and I figured it couldn't hurt anything. Boy, was I ever wrong. Turns out that quick cure is tough on the bio filter. After one day's dosing in the evening, I awoke this morning to SEVERELY ammonia-stressed fish. Obviously did an immediate 50% WC (will do another 50% this eve) and added some seachem prime to get on top of the ammonia issue. I've been though unexpected bio filter disasters before - WCs, regular ammo level testing, and time, plus jump-starting the filter with some media with other tanks and some additional oxygenation should take care of it. But I'm obviously concerned about how this stress will affect my already weakened discus. So FWIW, be careful with the formalin-based meds. I'll let y'all know how this affects my parasite issue as the situation unfolds.

[dirtyplants]

Yes it will effect your bio filter but formalin will kill algae spores which will destroy your oxygen levels, aeration is important.
Another thing try adding the meds after the white things drop off, thus way you can kill more free swimming beasties. Assuming we are dealing with protozoans. You can not kill the egg stage so good to get them free swimming.

[Libby911]

ah bloody, I never thought of it killing algae spores. I did up the aeration significantly earlier today after I noticed the problem, but so far I lost one heckel already and have a couple others that look really rough. It probably should have occurred to me that oxygenation problems are more of an issue in discus tanks due to lower water movement levels and higher temps. the bugger of it all is that I could've caught this much earlier had I medicated in the AM instead of at night, but I read somewhere that the malachite green in quick cure degrades in light. Seems like no matter how knowledgeable I think I've become on aquarium issues ("surely now I've seen every possible problem, right?") I find there's something else I haven't encountered or some new unforced error I can make. *sigh*

[dirtyplants]

I am sorry I did not mention it, I did not think about it. I feel awful you lost fish. I have been trying to get wilds for a bit now but weather has not been good, so loosing a heckel stings doubly. So how are the other doing at this point?

[dirtyplants]

I am sorry I did not mention it, I did not think about it. I feel awful you lost fish. I have been trying to get wilds for a bit now but weather has not been good, so loosing a heckel stings doubly. So how are the other doing at this point?

[Libby911]

Sadly these things happen, and this one was totally my own unforced error. I know most meds are tough on the bio filter, and I discovered the hard way with a tank of rare rainbowfish and a busted air conditioner that higher temps affect O2 levels in water. But just because I "know" something apparently doesn't mean it occurs to me when it should, and I'd just used the quick-cure with no ill effects. Lost two more heckels overnight. In hindsight I probably should have waited until I was a bit more experienced with discus before getting wilds - discus definitely have a unique learning curve compared to my other fw fish. still, don't plan to give up on keeping wilds, I'll just chalk it up to a tough learning experience and be more careful going forward. and it's probably good if I pay more heed to conventional wisdom (wilds are a bit more particular and less hardy when getting established, better not to mix wilds and domestics, etc.) in the future. now I just need to make sure the fish handle this parasite problem with stressed immune systems, and I'll be back in business.

[PP_GBR]

Where did you buy your wilds from? I would ask that person for help. There are few people here you may ask for help like Pat , jmg and discusBR (sp).

Hth

[dirtyplants]

Where did you buy your wilds from?
There are some who will be patient with you, with meds. and the side effects of meds. and are willing to explain it to you. Some will be less patient. As a rule of thumb i check the site for the specific drug and its side effects.
As for wild heckels I am told by many to keep them apart as their needs and adaptability are less then others wilds. I opted to get greens, I was told they are a better choice for adapting to local waters, therefore a good choice for first time wilds.

I usually mention formalin will tank your oxygen supply but many just disregard my adjuncts of add air stone. something to remember: heat, anything that kills algae spores, or chemicals that binds the oxygen ions up, combined with the destructiveness of the majority of drugs reguarding nitrifying bacteria, demands air. When I add some thing I am unsure of I watch the tank like a hawk and have water ready to transfer fish just in case.
Don't give up just keep a designated tank for the wilds. How long did you say you had them?

[Libby911]

Coree, I got these wilds in early November. No new signs of parasite issues since my debacle a few days ago, and the fish are recovering admirably. You might like to know that the two wild greens I keep seem to have dealt with both the O2 problem and the parasite much better than the heckels did. I may consider adding more greens in the future, although at present I'm kind of partial to the blues. But I want to make sure I've got this parasite problem beat and get my domestics moved to a separate tank first (which is now in the garage waiting to be set up).

OC: any word on how your fish are doing? I'm curious as to how effective the quick cure has proved.

[snakeskin blue]

im not sure if this will help but if you want to make perfect aquarium water look into API tap water filter. its a de ionizer and connects up to almost any tap water spout and I get about 200 gal per filter cartridge
(just thought I would mention it if any of you are having troubled with ph swings or any chemical fluctuation that sometimes can cause stress and illness)

[dirtyplants]

im not sure if this will help but if you want to make perfect aquarium water look into API tap water filter. its a de ionizer and connects up to almost any tap water spout and I get about 200 gal per filter cartridge
(just thought I would mention it if any of you are having troubled with ph swings or any chemical fluctuation that sometimes can cause stress and illness)


snakeskin do you know what is used for this filter?


Libby I am so happy all is well I hope weather permitting to getting wilds soon.

[Second Hand Pat]

im not sure if this will help but if you want to make perfect aquarium water look into API tap water filter. its a de ionizer and connects up to almost any tap water spout and I get about 200 gal per filter cartridge
(just thought I would mention it if any of you are having troubled with ph swings or any chemical fluctuation that sometimes can cause stress and illness)

A HMA is a better choice. I would go through four of these a week.

Libby, sorry about the heckels.

[dirtyplants]

A HMA is a better choice. I would go through four of these a week.
Pat do you have any pressure issues? How much hose are you using, does it have waste water like RO or just trap large particles and chemicals as it passes through, do you need to back flush it?

[dirtyplants]

OC: any word on how your fish are doing? I'm curious as to how effective the quick cure has proved.
OC has had a battle with his ICH, he has just done massive sterilization, and salt dips recently, look for recurrent ICH posts.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat do you have any pressure issues? How much hose are you using, does it have waste water like RO or just trap large particles and chemicals as it passes through, do you need to back flush it?

Coree, the HMA is a pass through, high flow (no pressure issues) with inline sediment, GAC filters. I use this to fill my WC barrels. I documented it in this thread...http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes&highlight=summer+unhappy+fishes. Note that the parts list has been replaced with new part numbers.

[OC Discus]

Libby

Thanks for asking. I have a thread titled "help with recurrent case of ick" that details the problem. In summary:
1. I think ick, velvet and other parasites were introduced when my tank was set up as a community tank without quarantine.
2 I had the first outbreak when I removed the gravel- resolved with heat and salt.
3. I had a second outbreak when my heater failed and temp dropped below 80. Disease had not been eradicated as I would see a spot here and there on the fish. Heat and salt didnt work, so I treated with half dose of quick cure and spots resolved but not eradicated.
4. Third outbreak occurred after adding plecos without full six week quadantine. Stress from new plecos may have been an issue plus new parasites. This time the spots did not respond to half dose of quick cure for six days. I uppes to full dose and spots still did not respond after ten days. Fish were getting sick from the quick cure. Ragged fins, red spots of irritation on the body, very cloudy eyes.
5. I contacted Al and he recommended a process of salt dips and sterilizing both tanks and all equipment.
6. Today was second salt dip and all white spots are gone, red spots are gone, and cloudy eyes have almost cleared.
7. I have removed all fish except six discus from my 55 g as well as substrate and decorations. I plan to keep heat up for about ten days and do 50%+ daily wc to be sure all parasites are eradicated and fish are fully healed.
8. Another change- I was feeding blood worms and brine shrimp as staples with an occasional veggie pellet. Now Im feeding bills beefheart flake two to three times a day with shrimp and worms as snacks. Bills beefheart is loaded with viramins in addition to protein and some algae.
Long answer. Hope your issues resolve with the wilds. More detail on the salt dip in my other thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dirtyplants]

Coree, the HMA is a pass through, high flow (no pressure issues) with inline sediment, GAC filters. I use this to fill my WC barrels. I documented it in this thread...http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...unhappy+fishes. Note that the parts list has been replaced with new part numbers.
Thanks Pat that will be my next thing to do.