Snow white x leopard

[timmy82]

Hi SD friends, from your expierience have you seen good out comes in this cross Snow White x leopard? The male is the SW and to me he seems like a SS because in the young I can see some 14 bars about 20% and his scale pattern is fine and the female is only a 9 bar leopard. Judging by my poor picture...... do you think the out come will be some reasonable Snow leopards? Or will it further develop in the F2 & F3? I am keeping around 12 - 15 to grow to adults. They went FS on 15 october and the largest measured 8.5cm when moved the other day majority are 7cm.

[Rod]

Hi Timmy,

Like most crosses, you will get a lot of variation between fish regarding the pattern. Many should look ok, but you are correct in thinking it will need several more generations before you will acheive some consistency among the fry. These white crosses are heterozygous, and can never be made to breed true. In addition many will have some dark pigment, and it will take some careful selection to change them from white leopard to snow leopard.

Good luck

Rod

[timmy82]

Thanks Rod that confirms I am on the right track. Will putting the F1 back to the male SW speed up the process or is inbreeding the F1's together more viable?
They seem to be growing really well and fast same with the Altum Flora young too.

[Rod]

Thanks Rod that confirms I am on the right track. Will putting the F1 back to the male SW speed up the process or is inbreeding the F1's together more viable?

Back crossing with SW will give about 50/50 split between snow white/heterozygous white's. I don't think that way will improve the spots, but it may help clean the black pigment. The way i see it is you have 2 critical aspects that need work. 1 is to remove black pigment, and the 2nd is to have a nice leopard type pattern. By inbreeding those f1's that have the best combination of these 2 traits, is a way i would consider. In this case you will get a 25/50/25 split SW/heterozygous white/wild type. Another possible way, and perhaps better way to acheive spots, would be to back cross with another leopard (or indeed any spotted strain that has excellent spots). You will receive a 50/50 split between heterozygous white/wild type. The black pigment comes from the wild type, but can be selected out by careful further breeding.

[timmy82]

Good stuff thanks Rod

[nc0gnet0]

The one varialbe in the equation Rod did not mention, is it is hard to find a pure SW nowadays, and most are at least heterozygotes for the pb gene. Andrew says in one of his books that the blue coloration in the anal/dorsal fins is an indication that your fish contains the pb gene. IME I have found this to be true, but I will grant you that my sample size is way to small to say Andrew's claim is conclusive.


Also of another interesting note, to date, when I have bred two Snow leopards together, I have not yet gotten any SW offspring like I would expect, but I get quite a variation in the fry, ranging from turqish like fry to snow leopard offspring. Suffice it to say that even when purchased in i's pure form, the stain is far from reformed and the result of more than one heterozygous gene.


-Rick

[timmy82]

The one varialbe in the equation Rod did not mention, is it is hard to find a pure SW nowadays, and most are at least heterozygotes for the pb gene. Andrew says in one of his books that the blue coloration in the anal/dorsal fins is an indication that your fish contains the pb gene. IME I have found this to be true, but I will grant you that my sample size is way to small to say Andrew's claim is conclusive.


Also of another interesting note, to date, when I have bred two Snow leopards together, I have not yet gotten any SW offspring like I would expect, but I get quite a variation in the fry, ranging from turqish like fry to snow leopard offspring. Suffice it to say that even when purchased in i's pure form, the stain is far from reformed and the result of more than one heterozygous gene.


-Rick

Thanks for your input Rick. I would belive he does have PB as from time to time there is light blue coloration in the fins. They still 10 - 12 months away before they come of age so I may try a few different avenues as I got a really nice penang spotted through the gills & see how Rod goes with Jeffery in the next shipment might have some SL to throw in with too and even the young back with the father should help clean up the PB.

[nc0gnet0]

Thanks for your input Rick. I would belive he does have PB as from time to time there is light blue coloration in the fins. They still 10 - 12 months away before they come of age so I may try a few different avenues as I got a really nice penang spotted through the gills & see how Rod goes with Jeffery in the next shipment might have some SL to throw in with too and even the young back with the father should help clean up the PB.

Interesting and be sure to keep us informed as to your results. To date I have some snow leopards from Tony Tan, Dex, Jeffery Yang, and some White eruptions from Wayne Ng. Another interesting note, I found that one of the White eruptions from Wayne Ng was actually heterozygous for the golden gene.

-Rick

[Rod]

The one varialbe in the equation Rod did not mention, is it is hard to find a pure SW nowadays, and most are at least heterozygotes for the pb gene. Andrew says in one of his books that the blue coloration in the anal/dorsal fins is an indication that your fish contains the pb gene. IME I have found this to be true, but I will grant you that my sample size is way to small to say Andrew's claim is conclusive.


Also of another interesting note, to date, when I have bred two Snow leopards together, I have not yet gotten any SW offspring like I would expect, but I get quite a variation in the fry, ranging from turqish like fry to snow leopard offspring.

I was assuming there are no other hidden monogenic and heterozygous traits. But you are correct that the phenotype and genotype can be a tangled web to decipher :D If you are not receiving the expected outcome range, then likely there is another gene in play, or we have interpreted the results incorrectly. ie, snow white is not a homozygous monogenetic trait.


Suffice it to say that even when purchased in i's pure form, the stain is far from reformed and the result of more than one heterozygous gene.


-Rick

hehe, thats why i never refer to het's as being a pure anything :) ok, i'll slowly back away now. We don't need more "what is a strain" questions? :D:D

[Rod]

Interesting and be sure to keep us informed as to your results. To date I have some snow leopards from Tony Tan, Dex, Jeffery Yang, and some White eruptions from Wayne Ng. Another interesting note, I found that one of the White eruptions from Wayne Ng was actually heterozygous for the golden gene.

-Rick

Jeffrey sent me some photos of some SL earlier this week, the quality these days is sooo good. I will probably get a few if they are not all soldout already.

[timmy82]

Jeffrey sent me some photos of some SL earlier this week, the quality these days is sooo good. I will probably get a few if they are not all soldout already.

If they arrive I will certainly take 3 - 5 off you for sure :-)

[timmy82]

Some up date pictures largest almost 10cm FS 15th Oct 2013