Cycling and frequent water changes...

[LisaT]

Just thinking....what is the point of having spent 6 weeks cycling my tank if I'm doing daily water changes? I've never had discus before, but have had other types of fish and several tanks. I've always believed that the ammonia produced by fish waste, decaying food, etc., fed the good bacteria turning it to nitrite and then nitrate.

So, assuming I'm correct, how does any of this bacteria stay alive if I am constantly changing water...it seems that there is nothing to feed it. When I cycled my tank I brought the ammonia up to 4 daily, and within 24 hours there was no nitrite or nitrate. Once I added fish, I obviously stopped adding ammonia...so now with the frequent water changes should I assume that most of the good bacteria has died? I'm just curious, not really worried about it not...however, when I go on vacation over the summer I may be.

[GeauxDiscus]

Most nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces - the sides of your aquarium, on your decorations, and inside your filter hoses, etc. Doing water changes will not significantly reduce the number of nitrifying bacteria, and will help remove not only nitrites and nitrates, but dissolved organic waste and any other nasty bacteria. Does that help?

[LisaT]

Thanks....I appreciate your response. What I'm confused about is how the bacteria stays alive with virtually no ammonia to feed it.

[GeauxDiscus]

Trust me - your fish are little poopers. :D Every time they exhale, pee, poop, or even look at you funny, they are excreting ammonia. There's plenty to go around. If you hadn't cycled your tank first, your fish would be uncomfortable (at the least) with the excess ammonia that builds up in just a few hours. You did the right thing cycling your tank, and you are doing the right thing doing frequent water changes if you have discus.

[DLock3d]

"Just thinking....what is the point of having spent 6 weeks cycling my tank if I'm doing daily water changes?"

Lisa, this is a great question. In my opinion, there is no point. I never worry about cycling tanks anymore because I'm doing water changes everyday or every other day. I also don't overstock my tanks until I know they're cycled. I have sponges and home made filters with bio media but I always start tanks from scratch to make sure I don't cross contaminate. As Shane mentioned it's the surfaces that home nitrifying bacteria which is why sponge filters and bio media with a large service area work best. When wiping down your tank you do remove some of the bacteria but not enough to cause an issue in most cases.

[LisaT]

Thanks! One of the reasons I thought to ask this question is because I have a small (15 gal) tank that I'd like to use as a quarantine tank. I could never figure out an easy way to keep an empty tank cycled...I probably wouldn't stick to the whole ammonia thing and putting fish in to keep it cycled kind of defeats the purpose of cycling, (as those fish my introduce parasites etc). But if I do a huge water change daily (which takes 5 minutes with a 15 gal tank), that might work.

[sholvey]

On my empty qt tanks, I use fish food as the ammonia source and vacuum every couple days

[LisaT]

Sholvey...I've considered doing that. I just don't have a good spot to keep empty tanks. My house is small. I'd rather keep it in the attic and take it out when I need it.

[John_Nicholson]

I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years.....

-john

[LisaT]

Really John. ...tell me more. LoL. No weeks of measuring ammonia and doing daily water tests??? My only issue: Say I go away for a week and cant do daily water changes...I've read all about turning the temp down, not feeding, etc. But still, won't ammonia and nitrite build up?

[OC Discus]

If you do 50% daily wc on the qt tank and dose with prime, the wc will remove 1/2 the ammonia and the prime will neutralize the other 1/2 for 24 hours.

I recently sterilized my tanks to get rid of disease. The qt tank should be kept sterile, or sterilized before using it. Since I've finished my treatment, I sterilized the qt tank and shut it down. I'll probably drain it if its not in use after about a week (and I don't plan on using it again any time soon). When you need it, just fill it up, run some bleach through it (1/2 cup on that size tank) with filter running overnight. Dechlorinate, wipe down, drain, refill and dechlorinate again. Each step could be done in a couple of hours instead of overnight (run bleach 2 hours, dechlorinate 2 hours, drain, refill, run 2 hours with dechlorinator before adding fish. If you keep it running with stuff in it, its not a sterile hospital tank.


Thanks! One of the reasons I thought to ask this question is because I have a small (15 gal) tank that I'd like to use as a quarantine tank. I could never figure out an easy way to keep an empty tank cycled...I probably wouldn't stick to the whole ammonia thing and putting fish in to keep it cycled kind of defeats the purpose of cycling, (as those fish my introduce parasites etc). But if I do a huge water change daily (which takes 5 minutes with a 15 gal tank), that might work.

[John_Nicholson]

I do keep sponge filters running in my tanks but they cycle on their own. When I set a new tank I change at least 50% of the water a day. If the water needs to be changed more than I do. I also go on vacation but have never done so when any of the tanks were brand new.

-john

[BODYDUB]

I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years.....

-john
Setting them up..........

I do keep sponge filters running in my tanks but they cycle on their own. When I set a new tank I change at least 50% of the water a day. If the water needs to be changed more than I do. I also go on vacation but have never done so when any of the tanks were brand new.

-john

And knocking them down...........

[Sandy Clay]

So, basically you are removing the ammonia build up with daily water changes, before it comes harmful to the fish? Is that correct?

[BODYDUB]

So, basically you are removing the ammonia build up with daily water changes, before it comes harmful to the fish? Is that correct?
No. The only time ammonia should be present in a tank is during cycling. If you have a ammonia present in a "cycled" tank then something is wrong with your bio-filter and it needs to be addressed. W/C's are done to keep nitrates in check and down to a minimum. High amounts of nitrates lead to bad water quality which leads to diseases and sickness..............

[Heyguy74]

I always keep a few extra sponge filters running on established tanks. This way I have a cycled filter ready to. If I need a new tank set up. I just put the sponge filter in from an established tank and the tank is instantly cycled.

[OC Discus]

But if it is a new tank, yes the prime will neutralize ammonia for at least 24 hours. Daily wc necessary if using this method until the tank is cycled.


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[Gil]

Most nitrifying bacteria live on surfaces - the sides of your aquarium, on your decorations, and inside your filter hoses, etc. Doing water changes will not significantly reduce the number of nitrifying bacteria, and will help remove not only nitrites and nitrates, but dissolved organic waste and any other nasty bacteria. Does that help?

Ok, this kind of opens a door for debate... Leaving discus aside, I am not a discus expert by any means but have cycled tanks or should I say filters for decades (shows my age a little)

How can most nitrifying bacteria supposedly needing water flowing through it and something to cling on to grow in the sides of a tank? I believe 90% or more of the beneficial bacteria resides in the filter, let me explain why I feel this way.

Example, starting with a brand new clean tank and a clean filter, as the cycle begins, bacteria will need something to cling on to as water passes through, that would be the filter.

Another example... Let's say starting from scratch with a clean tank with fresh water, just put in an "established" filter and the tank is ready to go.

Now let's say this bacteria does grow in the sides of a tank... can you cycle a tank without a filter?

[BODYDUB]

Ok, this kind of opens a door for debate... Leaving discus aside, I am not a discus expert by any means but have cycled tanks or should I say filters for decades (shows my age a little)

How can most nitrifying bacteria supposedly needing water flowing through it and something to cling on to grow in the sides of a tank? I believe 90% or more of the beneficial bacteria resides in the filter, let me explain why I feel this way.

Example, starting with a brand new clean tank and a clean filter, as the cycle begins, bacteria will need something to cling on to as water passes through, that would be the filter.

Another example... Let's say starting from scratch with a clean tank with fresh water, just put in an "established" filter and the tank is ready to go.

Now let's say this bacteria does grow in the sides of a tank... can you cycle a tank without a filter?

BB is on every surface in an established tank, but the majority of BB resides in filters due to the increased water flow. Now lets just say you replace an established sponge filter from a established tank with a new sponge filter. While there is BB still within the surfaces of the tank, it will take some time for it to establish itselt within the new filter.......

[musicmarn1]

ok good ! feel much better about it now, its hard sometimes here just when i learn something several people say something that makes me feel like i didnt hahah ! so for instance what exactly do you do ?


I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years.....

-john

[Gil]

BB is on every surface in an established tank. But most of the BB resides in filters due to the increased water flow. Now lets just say you replace an established sponge filter from a established tank with a new sponge filter. While there is BB still within the surfaces of the tank, it will take some time for it to establish itselt within the new filter.......

That's right, and it would probably take a long while before you can introduce fish into that tank as well. Mind you, I'm not talking about a discus tank where daily water changes are the rule, I'm referring about a tank which one would do a weekly water change.

[John_Nicholson]

I change water......I know that sounds ultra simply ...and it is....but it also works. I do put sponge filters in the tanks but they just have to cycle on their own.

-john


ok good ! feel much better about it now, its hard sometimes here just when i learn something several people say something that makes me feel like i didnt hahah ! so for instance what exactly do you do ?

[pgrhodes1]

I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years.....

-john

Hi John,

Really?? You do not cycle?? Could I get away with not cycling my 90 gal. I do water changes after every feeding morning and night on my 46 gal. Could I do this with and uncycled 90 and be alright??

Thanks,

Penny

[dirtyplants]

I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years

Logic seems to me that if you have bb tank, use prime for wc or aged, and change enough of the water everyday, cycle is not necessary.

[musicmarn1]

i always did wonder how they do it at the fish shows !!! surely those fish travel to uncycled tanks there all the time? my first show this year so i guess ill find out ! but really, do they take the fish and put clean everything or are they hauling dirty sponges which then begs the question how do they keep bacteria alive if dirty sponge does not have a fish in with it while traveling….

i like keeping it simple and in my mind changing large volumes of water prevents discus being uncomfortable according to JOHN then im happy to do it. 50% or more. got it. thats what i did with the last set of fish i got from kenny they seemed super clean and healthy and i didnt notice any discomfort, if there is one thing you can count on a discus to do…..its tell you your doing it wrong !! :p

[John_Nicholson]

Hi John,

Really?? You do not cycle?? Could I get away with not cycling my 90 gal. I do water changes after every feeding morning and night on my 46 gal. Could I do this with and uncycled 90 and be alright??

Thanks,

Penny

Sorry been out of town and then down with the flu.....anyway as long as you change enough water you are fine. Cycle is important when water is not changed but since the best thing for a discus is a WC it is never an issue for me.

[Rudustin]

I have to admit that I have never cycled a tank in twenty five years of fish keeping. I just change water frequently and a large portion of it and use Prime to take out the chlorine. I do age my water sometimes for two days but only to get the chlorine out and to heat up the water to the same temperature of the tanks I am doing a water change on. I have great water and the Ph drops rather quickly in the aging barrels. Cycling has never been an issue for me.

[dirtyplants]

I have not cycled a tank in over 30 years


Filters have many thousands of surfaces which allow for more nitrifying bacteria to thrive and multiply on. Glass only has one surface. Therefore you will have much more bacteria with filters.
If you change enough water everyday you do not need nor have the ammonia present in the tank to cycle. So no toxicity develops in the water.

[OC Discus]

Coree,

What is your avatar? It looks like something that came out of my filter when I sterilized the tank.


Filters have many thousands of surfaces which allow for more nitrifying bacteria to thrive and multiply on. Glass only has one surface. Therefore you will have much more bacteria with filters.
If you change enough water everyday you do not need nor have the ammonia present in the tank to cycle. So no toxicity develops in the water.

[dirtyplants]

LOL OC it might have! It is a rag worm.

[Gil]

I have to admit that I have never cycled a tank in twenty five years of fish keeping. I just change water frequently and a large portion of it and use Prime to take out the chlorine. I do age my water sometimes for two days but only to get the chlorine out and to heat up the water to the same temperature of the tanks I am doing a water change on. I have great water and the Ph drops rather quickly in the aging barrels. Cycling has never been an issue for me.

Interesting! I currently have a thirty gallon that I'm using to just grow out some angels, no filter, just 1/2 water change daily or every other day. I've gotten zero ammonia readings so far for almost a month and the fish are thriving.

My question to you.... How often do you change your water in your tank?

[Rudustin]

I change nearly 100 percent every other day in my 125 gallon and 90 percent in my 4 smaller tanks unless I'm away on business.


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[brady]

I have raised fish for many years and never have recycled but this discussion has raised a question in my my mind. Basically, if the good nitrifiying bacteria need ammonia to live , then how are they surviving if we do 90% w/c ,wipe down the tanks ,ect.? Seems to me we are taking , or at least reducing,there food supply.
Jay

[OC Discus]

Jay,

If you use this method you have to do the wc every day. It takes several weeks to build up enough bb in your filter to start skipping more than one day. Prime will neutralize ammonia for one day, but the tank is not cycled in the sense that you are used to- where you can only do water changes once a week or less. The tank cycles to handle the load it is bearing. If you suddenly start feeding more or changing less water, it will experience another cycling process that could be called a mini cycle. Beneficial bacteria colonize mainly in the filters. Having less beneficial bacteria requires more frequent water changes.

[Shane_]

Prime just detoxifies the ammonia so its not harmful to the fish. It will still build up inbetween wc's and feed the bacteria.

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[musicmarn1]

if its changed so its not toxic will it still feed the bacteria though ?? i am trusting prime and water changes for my QT tank non cycled right now so just curious

[OC Discus]

Hey marnie. The bb builds up very slow when you are doing large daily water changes. The more bio media you have the quicker it will build up.


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[GeauxDiscus]

if its changed so its not toxic will it still feed the bacteria though ?? i am trusting prime and water changes for my QT tank non cycled right now so just curious

There will be more than enough ammonia remaining in the tank and produced by your fish throughout the day to feed the nitrifying bacteria.