Discus getting worse every day

[Argentum]

I have a 65 G planted aquarium with 6 Discus, I introduced a confirmed female melon from my friend tank hoping to get a pair instead i got an infection.

I did not quarantine as I had a fish from him before from the same aquarium with the same fish with no problem at all. so i thought It will be the same, apparently I was wrong although I don't understand why.

Anyway the fish where turning a bit dark and tended to hide more in the corner but they seemed to restore their colors some of the time and behave normally, so I just made some increased WC. but it got worse by days in day 3 I took 5 of the affected fish only a 2 PB juviniles and 1 golden Checker board where not affected.

I started by a PP dip followed by an PP over night bath (pink colour concentration) in my 20G quarantine then changed 100% of the water added fresh and 2 Tbsp salt/ 10 G

and continued 100% WC daily + replacing salt, no food.

Its now day 3 in the QT and the are all still sick and one of them is becoming worse, here are his pics below

His slime coat looks like its pealing off and all of them have their slime coat turning opaque light gray

What I am thinking of doing now is start an antibiotic treatment using oxytetracycline or neomycine, What do you think?

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC01884_zps22d0c552.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC01884_zps22d0c552.jpg.html)

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC01887_zpsb9e74a32.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC01887_zpsb9e74a32.jpg.html)

[pcsb23]

It is possibly something like columnaris, not uncommon in a case of cross contamination. Salt at the concentration you are using won't help here. Second one today to post up a cross contamination thread too (not that it will make you feel any better).

If it was me I'd be looking at doing a PP treatment first and follow that up with a course of antibiotics (kanamycin/oxytet/furan - which ever broad spectrum AB you can get). And lots of water changes using clean water.

[Argentum]

If it was me I'd be looking at doing a PP treatment first and follow that up with a course of antibiotics (kanamycin/oxytet/furan - which ever broad spectrum AB you can get). And lots of water changes using clean water.

Thx, That's what I did exactly I prepared my QT tank with fresh water, and before I placed the fish in the tank i gave them a 30 sec dip in a concentrated PP solution. Then I added PP to the QT until it was pinkish and lest then in overnight.

Why do you think a fish could contaminate my tank, but another fish from the same tank 2 weeks before does nothing?

[brewmaster15]

It is possibly something like columnaris, not uncommon in a case of cross contamination. Salt at the concentration you are using won't help here. Second one today to post up a cross contamination thread too (not that it will make you feel any better).

If it was me I'd be looking at doing a PP treatment first and follow that up with a course of antibiotics (kanamycin/oxytet/furan - which ever broad spectrum AB you can get). And lots of water changes using clean water.
I agree here with Paul... and if you can't do a PP treatment , I'd consider salt Dips. then follow up with antibiotics as needed.

One thing I am curious of... you added that fish and then your fish got sick? how is the new fish? and How are the fish at your friends place. The time course you mention is pretty tight for crashing like that....its almost like they were ready to crash and the stress of the new fish was the trigger.

hth,
al

[pcsb23]

Thx, That's what I did exactly I prepared my QT tank with fresh water, and before I placed the fish in the tank i gave them a 30 sec dip in a concentrated PP solution. Then I added PP to the QT until it was pinkish and lest then in overnight.

Why do you think a fish could contaminate my tank, but another fish from the same tank 2 weeks before does nothing?You see this is why it helps to fill in the questionnaire .. you didn't mention the PP, didn't you think it may be important? ho-hum.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

As for why, pathogens exist everywhere, move fish and they get stressed. Stressed fishes immune system drops, they become susceptible.

[nc0gnet0]

If your considering Oxytet, knowing your ph would be helpfull as well, another reason to fill out the disease questionaire.......just sayin......

[Argentum]

I agree here with Paul... and if you can't do a PP treatment , I'd consider salt Dips. then follow up with antibiotics as needed.

One thing I am curious of... you added that fish and then your fish got sick? how is the new fish? and How are the fish at your friends place. The time course you mention is pretty tight for crashing like that....its almost like they were ready to crash and the stress of the new fish was the trigger.

hth,
al

The new fish is also sick along with them.

I am a bit confused now as I am also suspecting velvet, but I cant see any spots. besides the other fish in the planted (other discus danios, blue rams & pleco) are all fine.

So I think this eliminates the possibility of a parasite infection, as it would have got them all.

I am thinking right here? as this will determine if I am going to go to antibiotic or malachite. What do you think?

[Skip]

you may need a magnifying glass for velvet.. it will look like discus is covered in a fine dust..

[Argentum]

You see this is why it helps to fill in the questionnaire .. you didn't mention the PP, didn't you think it may be important? ho-hum.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

As for why, pathogens exist everywhere, move fish and they get stressed. Stressed fishes immune system drops, they become susceptible.

I thought I did, i wrote bath and missed the PP, I will edit the OP to include it



I started by an over night bath in my 20G quarantine then changed 100% of the water added fresh and 2 Tbsp salt/ 10 G


Sorry for the confusion

[pcsb23]

The patterning in the slime coat is typical of columanris, as are the symptoms.

[Argentum]

If your considering Oxytet, knowing your ph would be helpfull as well, another reason to fill out the disease questionaire.......just sayin......

pH is 6.5

I will use it next time (I hope there should not be a need for next time)

[nc0gnet0]

is your ph lowered by c02 injection or is it naturally that low? If it is, oxytet my be a good choice.

[dennin7418]

Perhaps the original new fish is the culprit and it just took 2 weeks for the impact....I'd suspect it to be sooner though....

OR

Did you buddy add any new fish to his stock in between? How are his fish doing now?

Regardless, I've had luck with Maracyn I & II or which don't get much attention on here but they have worked. I'd expect you to lose some here as they look pretty bad but get them on antibiotics stat as their immune systems are already stretched to the max!

[dirtyplants]

I started by a PP dip followed by an PP over night bath (pink colour concentration) in my 20G quarantine then changed 100% of the water added fresh and 2 Tbsp salt/ 10 G



You see this is why it helps to fill in the questionnaire .. you didn't mention the PP, didn't you think it may be important? ho-hum.

Was PP administered?

[Argentum]

Was PP administered?

Yes. Inetially I forgot to mention this . I then edited the OP to inude this

[Argentum]

I agree here with Paul... and if you can't do a PP treatment , I'd consider salt Dips. then follow up with antibiotics as needed.

One thing I am curious of... you added that fish and then your fish got sick? how is the new fish? and How are the fish at your friends place. The time course you mention is pretty tight for crashing like that....its almost like they were ready to crash and the stress of the new fish was the trigger.

hth,
al

Yes, strange till today its been only 6 days only. There is the possibility that my fish were getting sick and infected the ew fish and were susceptible to any thing she carried even if it djdnot affect them before so they both got infected

[Argentum]

is your ph lowered by c02 injection or is it naturally that low? If it is, oxytet my be a good choice.

I dont inject co2 its a low tek

A friend at a vet pharma company bought me huge quantities of oxytetrac. And neomycine and albendazole. Not that I am going to use them now but they will get handy

I dont know wether neomycine or oxy. Is the way to go

[pcsb23]

I dont inject co2 its a low tek

A friend at a vet pharma company bought me huge quantities of oxytetrac. And neomycine and albendazole. Not that I am going to use them now but they will get handy

I dont know wether neomycine or oxy. Is the way to goEither of the oxt-tet or neomycin should do.

[GeauxDiscus]

Just my two cents: I went through a massive columnaris outbreak a few years ago, and that does not look like columnaris to me. Columnaris eats away the soft tissue of the fins and gills VERY quickly. It will look like the fins are rotting away, and you may notice the fish swimming directly into the filter exhaust or any other current trying to get oxygen (because their gills are literally being dissolved). Very few fish will last more than 48 hours without treatment, but the treatment of choice is Maracyn II (NOT Maracyn I).

[Argentum]

Just my two cents: I went through a massive columnaris outbreak a few years ago, and that does not look like columnaris to me. Columnaris eats away the soft tissue of the fins and gills VERY quickly. It will look like the fins are rotting away, and you may notice the fish swimming directly into the filter exhaust or any other current trying to get oxygen (because their gills are literally being dissolved). Very few fish will last more than 48 hours without treatment, but the treatment of choice is Maracyn II (NOT Maracyn I).

The fins are fading away as you described, and the one mostly affected is hardly breathing and hangs near the surface when it has the energy to do so.
The slime coat is deteriorating and falling of, and showing on some places "fungus like" spots

[Argentum]

Okay everyone today shall be the Third day since I started treatment with Antibiotic.
I am dosing 250mg /10 Gal Neomycin and yesterday I started adding Maroxy along with the antibiotic as I suspected fungus.

Does anyone know if the Maroxy could react with the Antibiotic?

[pcsb23]

Okay everyone today shall be the Third day since I started treatment with Antibiotic.
I am dosing 250mg /10 Gal Neomycin and yesterday I started adding Maroxy along with the antibiotic as I suspected fungus.

Does anyone know if the Maroxy could react with the Antibiotic?I'd guess it's possible, if I recall correctly maroxy releases O2 and chlorine, both will react with other chemicals (antibiotics are chemicals). If you keep adding meds without thought you will kill your fish.

Fungus as you call it is in this case is almost certainly flexibacter columnaris and is why it is called cotton wool disease in some places, the correct treatment for this is an antibiotic. This is a disease that if caught early enough is easy to treat, but if not it will result in deaths. The root cause of this is always down to poor husbandry, so even if you cure this outbreak unless you improve your husbandry then it will return at some point. Sorry to be blunt, but expect to lose some fish. There is no magic cure, there is nothing you can add that will magically make the fish better in ten minutes, it will take days and most likely it will incur losses.

[Argentum]

I'd guess it's possible, if I recall correctly maroxy releases O2 and chlorine, both will react with other chemicals (antibiotics are chemicals). If you keep adding meds without thought you will kill your fish.

Fungus as you call it is in this case is almost certainly flexibacter columnaris and is why it is called cotton wool disease in some places, the correct treatment for this is an antibiotic. This is a disease that if caught early enough is easy to treat, but if not it will result in deaths. The root cause of this is always down to poor husbandry, so even if you cure this outbreak unless you improve your husbandry then it will return at some point. Sorry to be blunt, but expect to lose some fish. There is no magic cure, there is nothing you can add that will magically make the fish better in ten minutes, it will take days and most likely it will incur losses.

What I thought of is that the fish is now weak and fighting the disease and losing its slime coat in the process, that fungus might attack unprotected tissue.
I tried to get methylene blue but didn't find it.

If the active ingredients in Maroxy is Cl then it won't react with the antibiotic, as most antibiotics are made to withstand the acidic medium in the stomach (rich in HCL)

Although I hope that I don't lose any fish in the process one of my favorites is in a very bad shape and really weak. I will continue the medication for 8 more days and leave them in the QT with daily 100% WC and some salt until they regenerate their slime coat.

In the meanwhile I did a major clean up for the filter, the aquarium itself is vacuumed 3 times per weak along with 50% WC.

Do you know any method to sanitize my planted tank from any bacteria/fungus without harming the Bio filter?

[pcsb23]

Fair point re the HCl, but we are talking free chlorine here, far more reactive, as well as the free O2. Either way, there is little to no point in adding maroxy as the antibiotic is far more effective.

It is impossible to sanitise any tank, with or without plants, from bacteria or fungal spores as they exist in the air, on our skin and in and on the fish as well as the plants. Even if you were to sterilise the tank, as soon as you put water in it, it is no longer sterile. All we can do as aquarists is to maintain the tank as best we can to keep the background pathogen levels as low as practical, if the fish are healthy and have as low a stress environment as possible their immune system will do the rest.

There are methods to reduce pathogen load in the water column, such as UV and ozone, but these really should be unnecessary in a properly maintained discus tank. The cost and complexity of these systems, and in the case of ozone, the risks too, need to be fully understood before using them too. But even then they are not a panacea for all ills, just another piece of a support system that isn't really needed. But consider this, if you remove 50% of the water in the tank and then replace it with clean water you have just reduced the water column pathogen count by half, remove and replace 66% of the water and you have reduced the pathogen count by two thirds ... and the best thing here is I have never known a discus be killed by clean water, nor has clean water ever posed any health issues to us as ozone does.

[GeauxDiscus]

Everything you are saying points to columnaris. Grasping for air at the top is a strong indicator, as the lungs get eaten away very quickly. I would quit throwing tons of stuff in the tank, and treat with Maracyn II. It will for sure kill columnaris and most other gram-negative bacteria. You need to treat the whole tank, as all of your fish will now be infected.

[pcsb23]

Everything you are saying points to columnaris. Grasping for air at the top is a strong indicator, as the lungs get eaten away very quickly. I would quit throwing tons of stuff in the tank, and treat with Maracyn II. It will for sure kill columnaris and most other gram-negative bacteria. You need to treat the whole tank, as all of your fish will now be infected.Shane, he is already treating with a suitable antibiotic. If he were to follow your advice that would mean he is throwing yet another med at his fish, which incidentally is contra your advice.

I appreciate that you had success using Maracyn II but it is not the only antibiotic that will treat this. It means that your current advice is not good advice because if he switches now, the bacteria will have an opportunity to build resistance to neomycin. It is important that when treating with antibiotics the course is completed for this very reason. This is why you always see on the label of antibiotics the doc gives you "Always complete the course". owever if the neomycin fails to treat the columnaris he will be able to try Maracyn II.

[dirtyplants]

Bacillus columnaris, Flexibacter columnaris, Cytophaga columnaris, and most recently Flavobacterium columnare. Common names.
Can be treated with PP for external or Terramycin (oxytetracyline HCl) for both outside and inside.
The presence of the brown to yel- lowish-brown growth of bacteria on the mouth, gills, skin or fins usually indicates an infection with Flavobacterium columnare.
"Columnaris bacteria probably occur in most, if not all, aquacul- ture environments. The bacteria can cause disease under normal culture conditions, but more like- ly when fish are stressed.
Stressful conditions favoring columnaris disease include low oxygen, high ammonia, high nitrite, high water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, and crowding. Columnaris occurs frequently in fish raised intensively in cages and in closed recirculating systems and is attributed to crowding and cage abrasions. Once established, the infection can spread quickly and cause high mortality rates."the presence of columnaris may also lead to secondary infec- tion or other diseases. Winter saprolegniosis (also called winter fungus or winter kill) often is pre- ceded by columnaris.
Saprolegniosis is an infectious fungal disease that is widespread in all stages of the life cycle of fish. "The disease appears as cotton wool-like tufts on the body surface causing destruction of the skin and/or fins due to cellular necrosis by hyphal penetration and that is generally restricted to the epidermis and dermis. Most lesions are caused by Saprolegnia species that why the disease is called saprolegniosis, however, other Saprolegniaceae including Achlya may be primarily cause a clinically identical saprolegniosis.

(Ref. SARC World Journal of Fish and Marine Sciences 5 (2): 188-193, 2013 ISSN 2078-4589 © IDOSI Publications, 2013 DOI: 10.5829/idosi.wjfms.2013.05.02.7212)

[Argentum]

Fair point re the HCl, but we are talking free chlorine here, far more reactive, as well as the free O2. Either way, there is little to no point in adding maroxy as the antibiotic is far more effective.

HCl will ionize in aqueous media to H+ and Cl-, besides I believe that antibiotics are not effective against fungal infection as it is against bacteria and/or viral. However I agree that it is a better idea not to add a fungicide until I observe its presence for now.


Everything you are saying points to columnaris. Grasping for air at the top is a strong indicator, as the lungs get eaten away very quickly. I would quit throwing tons of stuff in the tank, and treat with Maracyn II. It will for sure kill columnaris and most other gram-negative bacteria. You need to treat the whole tank, as all of your fish will now be infected.

As Paul said I have already started treating with neomycin (antibiotic), Maracyn-two is also an antibiotic (minocycline). And stopping the treatment at this stage will only produce a stronger strain of the bacteria.



Bacillus columnaris, Flexibacter columnaris, Cytophaga columnaris, and most recently Flavobacterium columnare. Common names.
Can be treated with PP for external or Terramycin (oxytetracyline HCl) for both outside and inside.

Thx for the info... if it only came two days earlier I would have used Oxytet. I have it laying on the shelf, but the statement doesn't rule out it can be treated with neomycin

[dirtyplants]

Neomycin is used for culture base for Columnaris because Columnaris is able to grow in the presence, resistance where other bacteria will not maintain growth.
"Selective Cytophaga Agar (SCA) and Hsu-Shotts (HS) medium. These media take advantage of the ability of columnaris bacteria to grow in the presence of neomycin (5 mg/l) and polymyx- in B (200 units/ml), whereas most other fish pathogens and aquatic bacteria are inhibited."

I am not saying what should be or not be used I am just stating that Neomycin is used as a cultural base to determine columnaris bacteria. Columnaris has a resistance to neomycin which is how one determines columnaris bacteria from other bacteria in the culture.

[Argentum]

Neomycin is used for culture base for Columnaris because Columnaris is able to grow in the presence, resistance where other bacteria will not maintain growth.
"Selective Cytophaga Agar (SCA) and Hsu-Shotts (HS) medium. These media take advantage of the ability of columnaris bacteria to grow in the presence of neomycin (5 mg/l) and polymyx- in B (200 units/ml), whereas most other fish pathogens and aquatic bacteria are inhibited."

Oops !! I should have a concentration around 6.25 to 7 ppm not very far from 5ppm
do you suggest that I increase the dose? Or add both neomycin and oxytetracyclin (so in case that there is another bacteria present it dosent develop resistance to neomycin)
or completely go with oxytetracycline

[dirtyplants]

I don't like making decisions on antibiotics but what the research indicates is that neomycin in not the most effective antibiotic for columnaris, as it has a resistance to it, oxytetracyclin is the recommended treatment.

[Argentum]

I don't like making decisions on antibiotics but what the research indicates is that neomycin in not the most effective antibiotic for columnaris, as it has a resistance to it, oxytetracyclin is the recommended treatment.

I stumbled across this excellent article after you opened my eyes to this, I think I will start adding oxytetracycline along with neomycin. As I want to treat columnaris but dont want to make other bacteria present resistant to neomycin.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php

[GeauxDiscus]

Shane, he is already treating with a suitable antibiotic. If he were to follow your advice that would mean he is throwing yet another med at his fish, which incidentally is contra your advice.

I appreciate that you had success using Maracyn II but it is not the only antibiotic that will treat this. It means that your current advice is not good advice because if he switches now, the bacteria will have an opportunity to build resistance to neomycin. It is important that when treating with antibiotics the course is completed for this very reason. This is why you always see on the label of antibiotics the doc gives you "Always complete the course". However if the neomycin fails to treat the columnaris he will be able to try Maracyn II.

What I should have said was do a 80-90% water change to clear up the water, and then start treating with Maracyn II. All of the antifungals and other stuff mixed in with the antibiotics can cause harm to your fish. I was recommending Maracyn II because I've had personal experience with its success. Also, columnaris is so deadly so quickly, that if you don't use something that works the first time, your fish may not survive long enough for you to try something else. I don't agree that switching horses mid-stream would create a "super-strain" of bacteria, as long as you eventually kill all the bacteria in the fish. What matters is that you kill all the bacteria.

[pcsb23]

What I should have said was do a 80-90% water change to clear up the water, and then start treating with Maracyn II. All of the antifungals and other stuff mixed in with the antibiotics can cause harm to your fish. I was recommending Maracyn II because I've had personal experience with its success. Also, columnaris is so deadly so quickly, that if you don't use something that works the first time, your fish may not survive long enough for you to try something else. I don't agree that switching horses mid-stream would create a "super-strain" of bacteria, as long as you eventually kill all the bacteria in the fish. What matters is that you kill all the bacteria.Shane, it's not about killing bacteria in the fish, the bacteria that are removed with water changes still exist and still propagate, this is one method how so called super strains are created. If Coree's info is indeed correct then columnaris has already built up some resistance to this drug.

[Argentum]

What I should have said was do a 80-90% water change to clear up the water, and then start treating with Maracyn II. All of the antifungals and other stuff mixed in with the antibiotics can cause harm to your fish. I was recommending Maracyn II because I've had personal experience with its success. Also, columnaris is so deadly so quickly, that if you don't use something that works the first time, your fish may not survive long enough for you to try something else. I don't agree that switching horses mid-stream would create a "super-strain" of bacteria, as long as you eventually kill all the bacteria in the fish. What matters is that you kill all the bacteria.

Take it this way, If I treated my fish with Maracyn II for 2 days and before the are completely cured I switch to another antibiotic some of the bacteria that has divided and survived the Maracyne II will develop more resistance to it. and after I am done with my treatment still some bacteria will remain but in very few numbers that cant hurt the fish, and the immunity system of my fish will be more resistant to that disease now.

If my fish breed and I sell some of my fish and he gets the infection and goes to Maracyn II he will lose his fish because he will either need to increase the dose or the meds, but how can he know that he is dealing with a bacteria resistant to Maracyn II

[GeauxDiscus]

Shane, it's not about killing bacteria in the fish, the bacteria that are removed with water changes still exist and still propagate, this is one method how so called super strains are created. If Coree's info is indeed correct then columnaris has already built up some resistance to this drug.

So you're saying you never do a water change while treating with any antibiotic? My point was that as long as you complete a full course of treatment on the antibiotic you switch to and no bacteria survive, you should not be creating disease-resistant bacteria.

[GeauxDiscus]

Take it this way, If I treated my fish with Maracyn II for 2 days and before the are completely cured I switch to another antibiotic some of the bacteria that has divided and survived the Maracyne II will develop more resistance to it.

Not if you follow a full course of treatment with the antibiotic you switch to. My own doctor has done it with me before, and I'm a human. The point is to have no surviving bacteria. But suit yourself, and good luck - I hope it works out with what you're using. Please update us later to let us know.

[Argentum]

Not if you follow a full course of treatment with the antibiotic you switch to. My own doctor has done it with me before, and I'm a human. The point is to have no surviving bacteria. But suit yourself, and good luck - I hope it works out with what you're using. Please update us later to let us know.

I already switched to oxytetracycline as coree said neomycin turned oit to not being effective against columnaris. And now after 24 hours ...vi lost 1 fish. Strang enough it is the fish that seemed least affected.

Another 2 fish eyes started turning white. Has anyone seen such a thing with oxy before?!!

[pcsb23]

Have you tested for ammonia? Antibiotics will adversely affect the bio filter.

Has the colour of the treated water changed colour at all? oxy-tet is affected by light and de-natures.

What dosage did you use and what is the kh & gh of your tank?

[Argentum]

Have you tested for ammonia? Antibiotics will adversely affect the bio filter.

Has the colour of the treated water changed colour at all? oxy-tet is affected by light and de-natures.

What dosage did you use and what is the kh & gh of your tank?

I change 100% of the water daily before I redose + I dont feed them as only one of them is eating

I am using a vet. Yellow Powder form which dissolves in water to give a yellow colour and I covered the aquarium being aware its sensitive to light .

my pH is 6.5 KH is 3 gh is 6

As I said yesterday I added oxytet. In the presence of neomycin . I am not sure if this could have caused this

[Argentum]

A few minutes ago I placed the fish in a bucket with clean water changed 100 of the water and returned them to the aquarium.

I will have to dose the oxy again I will reduce the dose

I dont know if I have another choice

[pcsb23]

I change 100% of the water daily before I redose + I dont feed them as only one of them is eatingGood, ammonia ois unlikely then.


I am using a vet. Yellow Powder form which dissolves in water to give a yellow colour and I covered the aquarium being aware its sensitive to light .If you are using a vet, they have a duty of care and their advice should be followed not mine or anyone else on a forum.



my pH is 6.5 KH is 3 gh is 6[quote]Not much use without the dosing, but see my last comment below.

[quote]As I said yesterday I added oxytet. In the presence of neomycin . I am not sure if this could have caused thisUnknown, have never done this, but may be possible.

As getting all the from you so I can try and help has proven somewhat challenging and then you just drop in that you are using a vet, I am out of this thread. Speak with your vet, ask them the questions and follow their advice.

Good luck.

[Argentum]

I meant a medicine for veternary uses ... not following a vet.

thank you for your advice. I appreciate your trying to help me. I will reduce the oxytetracycline dose and hope 4 the best

[dirtyplants]

If you read the links and the reports listed by myself and others you will find this bacteria can kill very quickly with little signs, or be slow and lingering. If you are getting meds from a Vet. then you need also to get the correct dosages per body weight from him also.

If Coree's info is indeed correct then columnaris has already built up some resistance to this drug.
totally verifiable,
Columanaris:
Flavobacterium columnare can be identified in the laboratory by a five-step method that demonstrates:
● the ability to grow on a medium containing neomycin and polymyxin B;
● production of yellow pigmented rhizoid (root-like in appear- ance) colonies;
● production of a gelatin-degrading enzyme;
● binding of congo red dye to the colony; and
● production of a chondroitin sulfate-degrading enzyme.

You must remember you are trying to beat a bacteria infection that can kill in less then 24 hours. If the others have it they will start dropping within two weeks of each other or less. The treatment plan should be to minimize the number of deaths. Blaming an antibiotic for your death of a fish or more seems a bit reactionary considering the nature of the infection. Responsible implementation of any med. is crucial and is timing. Lastly I would heed Paul's advice anytime, he is extremely experienced so his methods have years of experience behind him.

[Argentum]

If the others have it they will start dropping within two weeks of each other or less. The treatment plan should be to minimize the number of deaths.

When you say the others does this mean all the other fish that were in the same tank? even though the seem very healthy (eating playing swimming around) and show no signs of any disease ATM.

Are you suggesting that I treat all the fish who shared the same aquarium with my sick fish?

I also want to add that I don't have any contacts with a Vet now, I just used medicines that a friend in a pharma co. producing animal medicine gave me.

[dirtyplants]

I also want to add that I don't have any contacts with a Vet now, I just used medicines that a friend in a pharma co. producing animal medicine gave me.

As I said yesterday I added oxytet. In the presence of neomycin . I am not sure if this could have caused this
You must realize that meds for humans, dosage and fish are different, I would never mix two antibiotics unless your chemistry is very good and you have some pharmaceutical knowledge. Unclear why you would mix antibiotics especially knowing one is less effective???

If your other fish are doing well then don't worry. Unless they show symptoms.

[Argentum]

You must realize that meds for humans, dosage and fish are different, I would never mix two antibiotics unless your chemistry is very good and you have some pharmaceutical knowledge. Unclear why you would mix antibiotics especially knowing one is less effective???

If your other fish are doing well then don't worry. Unless they show symptoms.

I am a Chemist but know nothing about pharma, What happened as you were following is I started treating with an ineffective antibiotic then you shed light on this and I wanted to switch to Oxytet.

I thought that there might be other bacteria that might be present that are affected by neomycin but will build Resistance to it because I switched to oxytetra.

I was confused and worried, so I didn't give it a lot of thought. Apparently, I was wrong because the other bacteria species if present will also be killed by oxytetra. along with columnaris.

[dirtyplants]

Both are antibiotics what the chemical make up is and how they differ would be along the line of your field. I would not worry about antibiotic immunity in just one episode like yours unless you did this a lot, as a treatment. Using neomycin when it is ineffective is a sure way to create immune issues. The reason why I chimed in is because I new neomycin was used to help identify columnaris, as neomycin will kill off all other bacteria except Columnaris. There is a trade name Use of Terramycin®" medicated feed to control columnaris is technically an extra-label use of the drug. Terramycin® is specifically labeled for treatment of Aeromonas hydrophila and pseudomonas bacterial infections.
Terramycin® (TM 100) has 100 grams of oxytetracycline active ingredient per pound of premix. You can find this in feed products."

PP is used for external treatment, but some research indicates if you see symptoms then you also have internal infection also. From your picture I would not have guessed Columnaris but some other bacteria infection, with winter white fungus as opportunistic to aid in the break down of protein. Paul has years of experience and knows the symptoms from beginning to end, and treatment is basically the same except for the type of antibiotics used. So Paul is the person who would and could catch this from the beginning.
Truly sorry you lost your fish, but now you have experience and lots of information in case you have another out break. Remember I mentioned sometimes two weeks for another fish to show symptoms so watch your fish carefully.

[Argentum]

UPDATE:

Up to this point the fish are getting better, and no new loss after my initial loss of 2 Discus.

They shed alot of their slime coat, one of the melons eye is still white and a little bit inflamed.

Any suggestions to improve the eye?

I am doing 100% WC daily and redose with Oxytetracycline

[DC Discus]

Hi All,

I a lot of interesting insight in this thread. I do want to urge CAUTION with antibiotics, due to humans can have allergic reactions to it. Also, if you're not washing your hands after working in and with your aquarium please do. Columnaris is not believed to be a zoonotic, but if this diagnosis is wrong and you have aeromonas, it is a zoonotic.

Question for anyone - Would a slime coat replacement (stress-coat or Nov-aqua) have been useful in this case in addition to a the meds?

With various bacterial outbreaks in my salmon or sturgeon (>500 fish per tank) we treat with Oxy-tet in the food. There are several source of Koi foods laced with antibotics. Columaries is definitely very fast acting at 58-65F, high mortality with 4-5 days.

-Argentum glad to hear your fish are starting to recover.
Cheers,
DC

[pcsb23]

...Question for anyone - Would a slime coat replacement (stress-coat or Nov-aqua) have been useful in this case in addition to a the meds? ...No, not in my opinion or experience, in fact it would be counter productive ime - many or most of the stress coat type additives are aloe vera, this has symptomatically been shown to cause irritation in gills. I have observed such behaviour in discus.

[Argentum]

Question for anyone - Would a slime coat replacement (stress-coat or Nov-aqua) have been useful in this case in addition to a the meds?

With various bacterial outbreaks in my salmon or sturgeon (>500 fish per tank) we treat with Oxy-tet in the food. There are several source of Koi foods laced with antibotics. Columaries is definitely very fast acting at 58-65F, high mortality with 4-5 days.

-Argentum glad to hear your fish are starting to recover.
Cheers,
DC

they are even better now
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/Mobile%20Uploads/20140304_001218_zpsx5zulpa1.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140304_001218_zpsx5zulpa1.jpg.html)

regarding your question. I will pass my observation to you. The fish kept on shedding their slime coat and as they got better the amout detatching from their bodies decreased. So I think shedding the old slime coat is part of their recovery as it will be infested with bacteria.

The important thing is to provide a clean environment for the fish with a med present toxic for the bacteria so its unable to multiply In the watef or on the fish body. This will leave the fishs immunity dealing with internal infection Along with the absorbed antibiotic

[Argentum]

Hello everyone,

Today should be the 10th day of the Oxytet. treatment. When I go back home I will do a 100% WC and give the tank a good clean. I will add 2Tbsp/10gal salt to water. and while treating them I removed the sponge filter and kept it running in a separate BB 20 gal tank that had a few danios from the same aquarium the discus came from they are now back to the main aquarium and now I have in it one female Electric yellow lab.

So I am afraid that if I put that filter back to my hospital aquarium It might carry something that would infect the fish while they are still recovering.
Is there a way I could disinfect the sponge while saving the B. Bacteria?

[Second Hand Pat]

How about a 12-24 hour salt dip in a bucket for the sponge?

[Argentum]

How about a 12-24 hour salt dip in a bucket for the sponge?

Its a good idea, Ill have to find out how much salt can nitrifying bacteria withstand.

A salt dip will certainly kill parasites if available, will it also kill other harmful bacteria? if so doesn't this mean it could kill my nitrifying bacteria?

These are the questions i need to answer

[Argentum]

I found part of the answer.

Nitrifying bacteria cultures in low salinity water will have optimum growth at .5% salinity so adding up to 5 to 6 Tbsp per liter will not have devastating effects on the bacteria population. Besides this will kill any zoo-plankton.

I still have to figure out how will it affect pathogenic bacterial species

[dirtyplants]

There is no logic to what I am about to say just gut feelings, and that is to start new. Clean the filter thoroughly micro wave the sponge, reestablish your sponge filter then. Glad to see the Oxytetracycline is working. While the sponge filter is developing new bacteria you will have no choice but to do water changes everyday so that will be good for your fish.



They shed alot of their slime coat, one of the melons eye is still white and a little bit inflamed. By inflamed do you mean red, swollen, sore, or maybe a reaction of immune type. Salt will help with osmotic conditions, but I would let these guys rest with completion of antibiotics and good clean wc. Take a breather and just watch.

[Argentum]

There is no logic to what I am about to say just gut feelings, and that is to start new. Clean the filter thoroughly micro wave the sponge, reestablish your sponge filter then. Glad to see the Oxytetracycline is working. While the sponge filter is developing new bacteria you will have no choice but to do water changes everyday so that will be good for your fish.


By inflamed do you mean red, swollen, sore, or maybe a reaction of immune type. Salt will help with osmotic conditions, but I would let these guys rest with completion of antibiotics and good clean wc. Take a breather and just watch.

That of course will be the safest thing to do. And I think thats what I am going to do.
After all it I better to be safe than sorry.

By inflamed I meant swollen, but just a bit its not bulged out or anything.
I have them eith fresh water good areation and a bit of salt.

thank you for your advice. And thanks to everyone else who tried to help.

[Argentum]

Hello everyone
its been 15 days since my fish recovered I moved a one of them to the show tank and leftbtwo who seemed to have paired up.
Today I realised the pair in the qt tank sometimes twitch their pectoral fins.
I saw them doing this before they get sick, so I am not sure is it related to sickness or is this somthing they do when they pair?

[Argentum]

I am sorry to push this up but I need someone to clarify things about my recent observation
Plz see the previous post above

[pcsb23]

Hello everyone
its been 15 days since my fish recovered I moved a one of them to the show tank and leftbtwo who seemed to have paired up.
Today I realised the pair in the qt tank sometimes twitch their pectoral fins.
I saw them doing this before they get sick, so I am not sure is it related to sickness or is this somthing they do when they pair?


I am sorry to push this up but I need someone to clarify things about my recent observation
Plz see the previous post above

Without seeing the fish I would say that it may well be the precursor to courtship behaviour. I'd do nothing other than observe for now (and obviously maintain good husbandry).

[Argentum]

Without seeing the fish I would say that it may well be the precursor to courtship behaviour. I'd do nothing other than observe for now (and obviously maintain good husbandry).

Thx for the answer Paul, I hope it is :)
This will be my first