Lost a fish today

[Hupp]

I'm not sure what is going on. One of my Turks was floating at the top of my 110 this morning. I have a 9 inch blue diamond, 3 six inch Turks, and 3 4 inch pigeons. The big one is a year old, the 6 inch are about 10 months. The smaller ones are not that old. I have one of the. Only had them 6 days now. The Turk began swimming sideways and was not active. Just stayed in the corner. Water parameters seem fine. I have been doing 75% water changes every other day. Temp is at 86. I'm really worried now.

[GeauxDiscus]

Please post a disease questionnaire in the diseases and sickness section, and people will be able to help you out.

BTW, did you say NINE-inch BD? I'm going to have to call shenanigans on that one until I see a picture with a measurement.

[Hupp]

I'm sorry, I am new to the forum. Where can I find the questionnaire? And I meant to say 7 inch Blue Diamond.

[Tazalanche]

I'm sorry, I am new to the forum. Where can I find the questionnaire?Scroll to the top of this page & it's the top yellow box with red letters that says:

BEFORE starting a new thread requesting help, please copy and paste the Disease Questionnaire and fill in the required information. This will help people give more timely and considered advice. Please click here for the Questionnaire! (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete)

[Hupp]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I have lost 3 now and about to lose another. The fish will begin to swim sideways then they will be at the very top sideways like they are gasping for air outside of the tank. Then they will die.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Swimming and floating sideways. No sores or spots. One fin may be clamped on either side for a little bit.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
I have done water changes daily and tested the water several times. Everything looks to be fine. I have added salt a couple of times to try and sooth them.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
110 gallon, Started with 8 and now I'm down to 4. They range from 7 inches to 4. The smaller ones seem fine. It's the bigger ones that have began to die. I have successfully kept discus in the same size tank without any problems before. I cannot locate the source of this.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
75% every other day. They seem fine after a water change then when I come home from work there is a new one gone.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank has been up and running for about a month. Has PFS substrate that's about an inch deep.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
I do not ageg water

8. Parameters and water source;


Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.



- temp __85___

- ph __7.2___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __.5__

- nitrate reading _10___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __100__

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Only had plastic plants that were new. I took them out. Wood from the tank the discus came from.


10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[Hupp]

I have a couple of pics of my remaining turk who isn't going to make it but I can't figure out how to post the pics

[GeauxDiscus]

You have to click "Go Advanced" to post the pics. Then you will see a paperclip thumbnail for posting attachments.

That nitrite reading of .5 is very high, and is enough to kill your fish. Your tank is clearly not cycled if you have a nitrite reading. It will take a couple of more weeks or possibly more to complete the cycle. Do you use Prime or some other water conditioner? If you aren't using Prime, switch to it for now, because it's the only one I know of that will detoxify nitrites.

Next, you need to reduce your bio-load by reducing the feeding amounts and upping your water changes to 75%+ daily. That will help keep the nitrites and then nitrates in check while your tank continues to cycle. You started out with a very high load for an uncycled tank. Next time, do a fishless cycle first, and then add fish SLOWLY.

One other question: What is the pH of your water out of the tap? Is it different than the pH after it's been sitting in your tank for a day?

[GeauxDiscus]

Also, this is just a suggestion, but it could save you a lot of hassle in the future: Remove your gravel if you plan on keeping discus. The gravel will harbor all kind of nasty stuff, and will make the frequent maintenance required for your tank infinitely more difficult.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Are those nitrite parameters correct? That could be some of your problem you shouldn't have any nitrites. Also dumb question but are you using a dechlorinator? Water temp the same with the new water?

-Victoria

[Hupp]

I don't use gravel. I have pool filter sand. I used a large sponge filter from an established tank which is what I've done in the past. So it's the nitrite level? Yes I use prime during water changes. I will have to check the ph from tap and get back on that.

[Hupp]

Is there anyway to save the one that is swimming upside down or is it too late.

[Madaboutdiscus]

You can try major water changes daily twice daily if you can. I don't know about the one in bad shape. Hard to say but if anything can save it fresh water can.

-Victoria

[Hupp]

Doing one now. If the tank isnt cycled I feel horrible!

[Hupp]

Oh my filtration is a fluval 405 and an emperor 400

[Hupp]

I have another emperor I can use in addition if you think that would help. I just it was too much.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Over filtration isn't going to help any at all really. Water changes are the key

-Victoria

[Hupp]

Looks like in damage control mode now. My little ones are doing ok and still eating. But the one floating and my blue don't look too good.

[Hupp]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I really appreciate it. This has turned out to be a disaster.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Well hopefully they get better for you.

-Victoria

[GeauxDiscus]

Just keep with the large daily water changes, double-up on your Prime, and you'll be okay. I hope your last big guy makes it. Victoria's right: an extra filter won't do anything, although more bio-media will be good for your tank after it cycles and continues to build beneficial bacteria.

[Argentum]

You said you took a sponge from an established tank, this might have carried a contamination to your discus tank

[Argentum]

Check out this article

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/headstanding.shtml

[Hupp]

Well the filter was from a tank that the fish were raised in. All of my larger ones were affected seemingly one by one. The small ones seem to be fine and active and eating. I doing water changes everyday now and using prime heavily. I really want to save my remaining fish.

[Hupp]

My big blue is going down quick. He just lays on the bottom. He breathing heavily and his gills look inflamed and ragged. I'm doing a water change now. I can text someone a pic but it won't allow me to upload a pic. I'm thinking of testing the whole tank with pimafix and milafix just in case.

[dirtyplants]

What does the fish look like, eyes, fins, skin, gills? Eyes cloudy or bulging? Skin color, dark, opaque, filmy, spots: red or white, sores or lesions? Fins ragged, cloudy, clasped? Swimming top, bottom grasping for air? Is it in QT? What does the inside of the gills look like? If you have nitrites then something has gone wrong with your nitrifying bacteria.
Rule of thumb, if fish is gasping near top for air, look at water quality first, if water is fine then second treat for parasite infiltration formalin based product or salt. Do not use both at the same time. Look for secondary infection. By the time the fish is gasping near the top it is in bad shape.

[Hupp]

My other fish ended up gasping at the top and dying. The blue is just sitting on the heater. Fins are clamped and he has some discoloration so ist yellowish patches on his side. This just started today. Eyes see fine. His gills seem to be inflamed like they are flopping out alnost. I have been using Morton non iodized salt. I don't not have a qt tank up yet. This hit fast.

[dirtyplants]

Yellow brownish patches? Look at the gills also see if the yellowish by gills, any white fungus also? Need a picture, soon! I am going to suggest PP and you need to get a pic up.

[Hupp]

Yes yellowish brown. I don't have access to pp. It's nowhere near me. It will not allow me to upload a pic. I'm trying

[dirtyplants]

i would be looking for a fungus and bacteria treatment for possible Columnaris infection. Without pictures it is hard to tell, I know API puts out medication for Columnaris and other bacteria infections. So pic. soon is important because if Columnaris it can take down all fish very quickly.

[Hupp]

Every pic I take I too large to upload??? I have no way to change the size of the image.

[dirtyplants]

Please do and soon. (Pictures) place into photobucket then add the link here.

[yim11]

Also toss the melafix and primafix, those aren't meds they are jokes. The salt isn't helping anything either.

[yim11]

Yellow brownish patches? Look at the gills also see if the yellowish by gills, any white fungus also? Need a picture, soon! I am going to suggest PP and you need to get a pic up.

It would not be advised to treat with PP in this tank with substrate.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Can you get him in a tank by hinself

-Victoria

[Hupp]

I can try to get him in a separate tank first thing in the morning but I doubt he will make it. One eye is buldging now also.

[Hupp]

Sorry, I was wrong about the eye

[Madaboutdiscus]

Truthfully at this point I don't think there's much you can do for him. He sounds too far gone. Did you move them from a smaller tank or something? Is that why you used the seeded filter?

-Victoria

[Madaboutdiscus]

Sorry, I was wrong about the eye

Oh well that's good. How's your parameters now? The nitrites go down?

-Victoria

[Hupp]

Yes nitrites are at 0 right now

[Madaboutdiscus]

Good sounds like the stress may have set up secondary infections. With the weird patches and stuff.

-Victoria

[Hupp]

Finally got a pic to upload.

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g454/hupp720/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0119_1.jpg

[dirtyplants]

QT and use PP if you do not have PP then use furan 2 API. Continue WC.

[Hupp]

I don't have a QT tank at this time but I was going to get one up at lunch but what about a cycle? If it's uncycled won't that do more harm?

[Madaboutdiscus]

Not if you do massive daily water changes.

-Victoria

[dirtyplants]

Is there any way you can take some more pictures try to make as clear as possible. Use a bucket with air if you have no QT tank. Kordon has a meth blue product which is supposed to aid fish with nitrite poisoning. Never used it. Might want to check it out. These meds will kill your bio system. I can not tell by your picture what is going on. Can you try again with multiple pictures? I need a better pic. of the yellowish brownish substance on body. Does it look golden? Are there any ulcers, sores, or pits? Are the eyes cloudy? Clamped fins?

[Hupp]

Ok, I will try to do this as soon as I get back today. The problem is I have absolutely nowhere to get meds where I live.

[Hupp]

He is completely laying on his side at the bottom now and his gills look like that have an extra white flap on them as he breathes.

[OC Discus]

Just a thought. What happened to the tank the filter came out of? The sick fish could use large water changes, but 135 gallon is a lot of water. If you had a smaller tank doing the 90% daily water changes would be much easier. You could move all the remaining fish to a smaller tank until you can get the big tank cycled.

I don't know why no one recommends Tetra Safe Start, but it is live bacteria that will cycle a tank in hours to days. Whatever anyone thinks about it, its better than losing $500 worth of fish.

[dirtyplants]

With out meds the only treatment option is salt and water changes, if this is velvet or columnaris, it is highly contagious.

[GeauxDiscus]

Not if you do massive daily water changes.

-Victoria

+1. Put him in a large bucket with an airstone, and change most of the water twice a day. Use two buckets, and stage the water in one of them if you need to. That BD looks (and from your description, "sounds") bad. He needs as many water changes as possible, and double up on the Prime to eliminate any ammonia and nitrites that might build up during the day while you're at work. I agree with Coree - if you don't have meds, use some aquarium (or non-iodized) salt. It may not kill everything, but it will kill some things, and it does help with gill function.

[dirtyplants]

Can you do a salt dip? Check the forum I know this has been talked and written about many times. Have Al walk you through it.

[Argentum]

If you don't have access to any meds, Use this Salt dip method:

But I would not return him to the same aquarium after the dip until treatment is over, if you can arrange a bare bottom tank its better if not use a bucket as suggested from other members

Source: It's part of this article you can view it better there: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php

Discus Salt Dip Methodology
Type of salt to use:
The type of salt used should be non-iodized and contain no ‘free flow’ or other additives (e.g. no iodine or sodium ferrocyanide etc. I have used ‘Freshwater Aquarium Salt’, rock salt and sea salt. If purchasing non-aquarium salt please read the packaging carefully as current trends show an increase in the use of additives even in natural products such as rock salt (UK).

If new to Salt Dipping
If new to dipping fish a good place to start would be with a 1.5-2% salt solution; for more experienced users I would suggest you start with a 3% solution immediately. The solution should be made up in a clean bucket or spare (fishless) tank. Whilst it is preferable to weigh out the correct amount of salt e.g. for a 2% solution one would use 20g of salt per litre of water, the following approximate measure are given for the sake of simplicity.

1 TABLESPOON of salt approximates to 15grams.

Therefore 1 TABLESPOON of salt per litre of water equates to a 1.5% solution

Worked examples (See Table 1 for other strengths):

· If your bucket/tank contains 10 litres of water you would add 13 tablespoons of salt to get an approximate 2% salt solution

· Or - If you place 3 US gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket you would add 14½ tablespoons of salt - to get an approximate 2% solution.

And so on

· It is important to ensure that the salt is fully dissolved before placing the fish in the bucket/tank and that the water temperature matches the tank from which the fish are taken.

As you will need to multi-dip throughout the day, place a heater in the tank, if you do not want to have to remake new salt solution each time; personally I make a fresh solution for each dip.

Before you place the fish in the solution please remember that:

· The length of time that you can leave discus in the solution varies greatly from a few seconds to 30 minutes

o 5 minutes would be a reasonable average

· The time they tolerate the dip DECREASES with the number of dips performed in a 24 hour period

· The fish MUST NOT be left unattended

· During the treatment your fish may show some interesting discolouration, do not worry this is short term.

Place the fish into the solution as quickly and as carefully as possible - then observe closely.

Initially, the respiration of the fish will increase substantially, 120 gill beats per minute is not uncommon. At some point, the fish will keel over on its side - and it is at this point that the novice should remove the fish and return it to its tank. If you are confident and experienced in dipping you may want to extend the time that the fish is exposed to the saline solution - I have found it effective to leave the fish in the solution until the gill beats have slowed to around 20 bpm - irrespective of whether the fish has keeled over or not.

Once the fish are returned to their tank they should within a few minutes regain their composure. If they appear to be in difficulty, the fish can be supported using your hands and then gently pulled backwards through the water at a slow pace - so that water is forced over the gills.

I have dipped 5 times a day for up to 7 days and there has been no lasting negative effect. It is important that the dips continue until all visible signs of infection are gone.





Salt Solution







0.1%

0.2%

0.3%

1%

2%

3%



10

Litres

10

20

30

100

200

300

salt
in grams

10

US Gallons

38

76

114

379

757

1136

10

Imperial Gallons

46

91

136

455

909

1364

TABLE 1A





Salt Solution







0.1%

0.2%

0.3%

1%

2%

3%



10

Litres

0.7

1.3

2

6.7

13

20

salt
in table-spoons

10

US Gallons

2.5

5

7.6

25

50

75.7

10

Imperial Gallons

3

6.1

9.1

30

61

90.9

TABLE 1B

Tables 1 A & B give approximate figures for various salt solution concentrations. It must be remembered that Table B are coarse approximations only.

Important Note:

In regards to salt dipping it may be argued that returning the dipped fish to the tank from which it came is pointless – this is not the case. Ideally we would want to return the fish to a tank which had been sterilised and which contained 100% fresh (but conditioned) water, with a matured filter. It is important to remember here, that all we are doing is ‘knocking back’ the population of a ubiquitous organism and promoting the production of copious amounts of slime layer in order that the fish immune system can regain control and management of the problem. If we must return the fish to the same tank etc. then large water changes with conditioned water, scrupulous tank hygiene and the addition of salt at a rate of 2 table spoons per 10 gallons (assuming that the tank does not contain delicate plants or salt intolerant species) can work wonders – in conjunction with correct salt dipping.

[nc0gnet0]

Salt...Baa! Salt dips, maybe. It has been a week, has the OP still not acquired any meds? Now, Paul probably cannot get this product, so I don't know if he has any experience with it, triocide neo read about it here:

http://koivet.com/a_tricide_neo_koi_spray_ulcers.html

I have used it a total of three times to date, nothing works faster and is more effective IMO. I have not however had to use it on velvet or columnaris, but would expect it to be as effective. this is what I would do. Perform the dip as suggested in the dip (spray will not help if the gills have been infected, and I suspect this to be the case). After the dip is complete, place fish in a sterile QT tank that has been dosed with furan 2 (you can also add kanamycin to mix if available). Make sure to have plenty of air in the tank and temperature set to 82 degrees ( I really wish people would stop elevating there temperature first sign of an outbreak, this is really only effective on a select few diseases, and most often makes the problem worse). If the fish is still having issues with labored breathing, as a last resort some meth blue can be added as well. Qt tank should be a minimum of 20 gallons, with at least 75% wc done per day (replace meds). Re-dip fish on day two, and day four(if necessary).


-Rick

ps. I often see posts that ask about what meds a discus keeper should have at his disposal. This is largely dependent on how fast the hobbyist can access those meds if in need. Most all meds can be purchased online and at your doorstep within 2-3 days if not available locally. Myslef, I like to always have on hand the following:

meth blue
acriflavin
furan 2
pp
formalin

These are all relatively inexpensive and easy to acquire (if you live in the US). If cost is not an object I would next add kanamycin to the list.