Substrate and Filter Question

[Blackdog2]

So I understand the bare bottom and ease of care argument, but I'm not sure I understand the love for sand. Having kept SW tanks in the past I know sand can harbor a lot of nastyness over time. It's also difficult to vacuum and generally keep clean. but my question really is why so much hate for gravel? in my early years I would remove fish a couple times a year for a complete cleaning of the tank (except the filter) and would literally rinse the gravel and return to the tank. it was great as the tank looked new. between those a good vacuuming and all was good.

My other question is on the (I'm sure) age old HOB or canister debate. I'm leaning canister only because I want to run an inline heater to keep the display clutter free as possible. Is there any real reason to choose a HOB over a canister? seems they are more popular than canisters.

Thanks in advance everyone.... looking forward to getting back into fish keeping after a bit of time away.... Discus was my way of keeping things simple after years of SW tanks. haha, so much for that!

[pcsb23]

There are two or three reasons why I prefer sand over gravel for discus. In a biotope it is the only substrate that is authentic, discus will graze on the floor so the sand is better for this as food sits on top, debris tends to sit on top too so is easy to syphon out, sand is very, very cheap and sand tends to be pale in colour and brings the best out of discus colour wise. As long as the sand isn't too deep then things like anaerobic bacteria can't develop, and it is easy enough just to run your fingers through it and when it settles(which doesn't take long) the debris is sat on top ready to be syphoned. Also if you keep corries they need a bit if sand to browse in.

HOBs seem to be popular in the USA, cannisters over here in Europe. Take your pick really. The advantage as I see it with HOBs is they are easy to service, but are unsightly. Cannisters are less easy to service and can be hidden away. Both work well as efficient filters.

[Elliots]

Another consideration of HOB vs. Canister. Many people do not have very large tanks and canisters are expensive to buy compared to HOB. Also what canister do you use with a 20 gal tank? I have sand in my tank but I no longer vacum the bottom. I have Geophagus Jurapuri (I know that is no longer the correct scientific name.) in my 150 gal. tank. I have four of them almost 4" long. They do not bother my Discus and they really dig into the sand and turn it over. The minus is they dig up plants so Swords work best and many other plants do not work at all. Plus I like to watch them.

[Blackdog2]

Thanks Guys, I guess I'm not so concerned with which particular brand or size one to use or cost differences but more about the physical differences and weather they are significant. Does the HOB oxygenate the water better? does it matter? If your fish are digging in the sand is that a problem? does it affect the water clarity? sand in impellers? What do you do when the sand does get dirty? can you like PCSB23 states "run your fingers through it and when it settles" ? can it be vacuumed when needed without leaching unwanted things back into the tank? Will it get as dirty as it can in a reef? will algae grow on it? these are the things I'm more interested to know. the cost between a decent HOB and canister is less than $100 which we all know in this hobby isn't much. While I realize there may be species specific reasons for choosing a particular substrate my concerns at this point in the planning stage is more aesthetic and the ability to keep things looking clean and cleaning them should they at some point need it. Thanks again...

[pcsb23]

Wow, lots of questions ... ok ...

Thanks Guys, I guess I'm not so concerned with which particular brand or size one to use or cost differences but more about the physical differences and weather they are significant. Does the HOB oxygenate the water better? does it matter? gas exchange is only dependant on surface area and how that surface is agitated. If the spray bars causes ripples on the surface gas exchange will be fine, if it doesn't it may not be. HOBs usually cause some surface agitation so there will be no concern there.


If your fish are digging in the sand is that a problem? gravel is harsh and those fish that like to dig will suffer, sand is better


does it affect the water clarity? no clarity issues with pool filter sand


sand in impellers? Can depend on how close the pick up is to the sand and the type of sand. My pick ups are a minimum of 6" above the sand and I've never had any issues, even with play sand which is much finer (too fine for any depth).


What do you do when the sand does get dirty? can you like PCSB23 states "run your fingers through it and when it settles" ? err yes, otherwise I wouldn't have said it :evilgrin:


can it be vacuumed when needed without leaching unwanted things back into the tank? It won't leach anything into the tank that isn't already there, it is inert unlike coral sand.


Will it get as dirty as it can in a reef? how long is a piece of string? depends on your husbandry pure and simple.


will algae grow on it? of course it will, just like it will grow on everything else given half a chance.


these are the things I'm more interested to know. the cost between a decent HOB and canister is less than $100 which we all know in this hobby isn't much. While I realize there may be species specific reasons for choosing a particular substrate my concerns at this point in the planning stage is more aesthetic and the ability to keep things looking clean and cleaning them should they at some point need it. Thanks again...
In my view for aesthetics it is sand and cannister, your mileage may vary.

[Blackdog2]

Thanks Paul, what do you mean by to fine for any depth in regards to the play sand?

[Cichlidcraze]

I used to use very fine river sand which is as fine as play sand. It becomes suspended in the water column and will be picked up by the filter intake regardless of the distance from sand to intake.

[discuspaul]

If you use true pool filter sand of # 20 or #30 grade, it is dense enough not to float up into the water column when disturbed. It can easily be vacuumed using an aquarium vacuum tube held up about an inch over the sand. It will float up an inch or two into the vac. tube, but will drop right back down immediately. Little or no chance of it getting pulled up into the filter intake tubes to clog up the filter.
No problem - I've been using it for years in my tanks.

[pcsb23]

Thanks Paul, what do you mean by to fine for any depth in regards to the play sand?The very fine play type sands compact too much and very soon develop anaerobic areas, which isn't great. I use it it in some biotope tanks but usually at no more than 3/4 inch deep (20mm).

[Blackdog2]

Thanks guys, Appreciate the assistance. guess I'll be looking for something a little less fine than what I have. as an aside how much sand is appropriate, I mean how deep?

[OC Discus]

1/4" is deep enough to cover the bottom and form a beneficial bacteria bed, but not deep enough for anaerobic bacteria to colonize

[DonMD]

In my 125 gallon display tank I run two Eheim canister filters with spray bars. They provide excellent surface ripples, so gas exchange is good. In my opinion they do a better job at this that HOB filters. They also agitate the surface enough for the flake food I administer in an auto-feeder to fall into the water column instead of just sitting on the surface due to surface tension. I also use a Hydor in-line heater with each canister. These heaters are superb, I have never had one maintenance issue with them. I use pool filter sand, usually about 1+ inches. It's easy to vacuum, and if I put the syphon down into the sand it sucks the sand up. When I lift the syphon up out of the sand and tilt it about 30-40 degrees, the sand will fall back down, and the dirt will usually continue up and out. And as Paul mentioned, the color of sand is good for discus. Then, when the sand finally gets too dirty, or has algae growing in it, I can remove it and replace with new, maybe once every two years. It's cheap. -Don

[Blackdog2]

Have any of you used medium blasting media as a substrate? I like the black look and it's cheap. I've read elsewhere that is chemically inert. I did BB on my reef and wasn't happy...guess I'm just a sand guy. I like the idea of having something there and a medium grain size seems about right. I'm getting ready to fill my Q tank with RO and then do some H2O tests on that to see exactly where I'm at so I have a little time on the display set up. Just trying to get all my questions answered before then.

[xmas_dude]

Regarding substrate it bare bottom is the way to go for simplicity and maintaining high water quality. However, if it is display tank, bare bottom tank with filter pipes etc looks like chem lab as per my wife ;-). Fine layer of sand is ok compromise, but I still find it hard to vaccum and have gone BB.

Regarding filters, I was and am big fan of Eheim canisters on all my tanks. However, with my discus tank it was too painful to clean (given desire to not let gunk accumulate in the media). I have 2 Hydro sponges and one aquaclear HOB filter with sponge prefilter. A light squeeze of the sponges with each wc is such a breeze compared to the canister filter cleaning. So i am hooked to sponges (and 1 HOB) for now....

Good luck
Sunil

[Blackdog2]

Okay, you guys have convinced me.... pool filter sand it is... so it's still winter here and pool filter sand isn't in any of the hardware stores around here and the pool supply stores are a bit of a drive. I can have it shipped to my local hardware store for nothing just wanted to check to see if this is the stuff...

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11683357&KPID=10415214&pla=pla_10415214

Thanks

[discuspaul]

Yes, that should be just fine.
Do you like that color ? Do they have any other colors ?





Okay, you guys have convinced me.... pool filter sand it is... so it's still winter here and pool filter sand isn't in any of the hardware stores around here and the pool supply stores are a bit of a drive. I can have it shipped to my local hardware store for nothing just wanted to check to see if this is the stuff...

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11683357&KPID=10415214&pla=pla_10415214

Thanks

[amonta1995]

I think gravel is the best, easier to clean (in my opinion) and it probably provides a better anchor for live plants to grow roots.

[Blackdog2]

Thanks Paul, the color should be fine. Im not aware of any other colors available. Thanks again for all the help

Mike