For experienced Discus-ers how does it end...

[dennin7418]

So there are many many highly established discus owners here but no matter how good the care is, how healthy the stock is or how many water changes you do a discus isn't going to live forever.

What are the most common causes of death outside of neglect that is expected as part of nature? I'm assuming not every discus lives to 10 years old so as fish die along the way what is the usual diagnosis and/or cause???

[Skip]

jumping out of tank..

slamming into glass when scared..

mechanical equipment failure.. heater stuck on.. elec. off..

mixing sources

missing with water chemistry.. buffers, co2, ph.. etc

[dennin7418]

So sounds like most will die as a result of something going wrong with the system and not just naturally...

They really can kill themselves when they slam into the tank???

[Skip]

So sounds like most will die as a result of something going wrong with the system and not just naturally...

They really can kill themselves when they slam into the tank???

it has been witnessed and it happens

[Keith Perkins]

They really can kill themselves when they slam into the tank???

Unfortunately, yes. Had a good friend lose one just like this not long after he bought it from me, and it was part of a pair.

[dkeef]

one I had jumped and another slammed into glass and died.

[CobaltBerry]

Maybe someone could invent a clear "safety pad" for the tank walls? :)

[BODYDUB]

They really can kill themselves when they slam into the tank???

Yup, I've had it happen to me in the past...............

[nc0gnet0]

So sounds like most will die as a result of something going wrong with the system and not just naturally...

Well, I would'nt say that, it's just that is all anyone up to this point will admit to.

[kkdiscus]

My discus when new was really scared of human being. Whoever walked close will cause them to slam here and there onto the walls of the tank. So I tried not to go close it in the beginning.

Now is fine, and they know when I walk close it means food is coming. :)

[kkdiscus]

So sounds like most will die as a result of something going wrong with the system and not just naturally...

When you put the fish into an man-made environment, you can't expect it to die naturally... :p

[Keith Perkins]

Well, I would'nt say that, it's just that is all anyone up to this point will admit to.

Yea, haven't seen over medicating or lax water changing mentioned.

[Ryan]

Let's be honest. Discus are a long-lived fish and a lot of hobbyists, new and old, do not keep them for their entire lifespan. Most people keep them for a few years, maybe spawn them, and then when they're ready for something new they sell/trade/give them away. Everyone here has done it. Whether they go to an LFS, another hobbyist, or a random person on Craigslist, I would venture to guess that most fish don't see the end of their natural life cycle with their original owners.

Aside from that, I'd say that lax maintenance is probably a big one. That will stress a fish out which will make it susceptible to disease and parasites, and a lot of discus that "waste away" do so because they catch something like hexamita and aren't treated so they slowly get worse until they're gone. I see it in LFS all the time so I have no doubt it sometimes happens in hobbyists' tanks, too.

I know over the years, thanks to things like water issues and moving houses, I've had to part with fish I loved. Most of them went to other hobbyists here. Some spawned them, some kept them for a while and passed them off again, etc.

[aquadon2222]

Remember that most that we buy are highly inbred, raised in very sterile environments and as such have not developed a vigorous immune system, so they can be fragile and susceptible to any pathogen.

[Second Hand Pat]

Remember that most that we buy are highly inbred, raised in very sterile environments and as such have not developed a vigorous immune system, so they can be fragile and susceptible to any pathogen.

I so disagree with this statement. The few domestics I have had been extremely healthy fish and very durable.

[yim11]

Remember that most that we buy are highly inbred, raised in very sterile environments and as such have not developed a vigorous immune system, so they can be fragile and susceptible to any pathogen.


I so disagree with this statement. The few domestics I have had been extremely healthy fish and very durable.

You are correct Pat, that statement is completely wrong. It's important that folks getting into the hobby dont read bs like that and think its true.

[Skip]

Remember that most that we buy are highly inbred, raised in very sterile environments and as such have not developed a vigorous immune system, so they can be fragile and susceptible to any pathogen.


You are correct Pat, that statement is completely wrong. It's important that folks getting into the hobby dont read bs like that and think its true.

Is this the info the discus expert is telling ya.. every two weeks?

Maybe this is where all these ideas from previous threads are coming from.. the lfs expert. ..

If so..I can't believe u are paying for this rubbish info

[Argentum]

Remember that most that we buy are highly inbred, raised in very sterile environments and as such have not developed a vigorous immune system, so they can be fragile and susceptible to any pathogen.


You are correct Pat, that statement is completely wrong. It's important that folks getting into the hobby dont read bs like that and think its true.


Is this the info the discus expert is telling ya.. every two weeks?

Maybe this is where all these ideas from previous threads are coming from.. the lfs expert. ..

If so..I can't believe u are paying for this rubbish info


Why is this rubbish info? It's not that I support the statement but I don't think it's completely wrong.
I can argue that environment is not sterile in the first place, however, with good husbandry pathogen levels are kept at very low levels so the immune system of the fish forms antibodies against those pathogens and is able to fight them easily because they are available at very low counts.

Remember that immunity systems have memory's and this is a core concept of a vaccine. when you get vaccinated a small concentration of an inactivated virus is injected into your body the virus will not be able to reproduce. However, your immunity system will recognize its "characteristic" "Antigen" and produce the appropriate antibody which is specific to that "Antigen" and this is stored in memory. So next time when you catch the real thing your immunity system already knows how to kill the pathogen.

So the original claim is true if a fish is raised in a completely sterile environment which is very (very x 10 ^99) difficult to maintain (its like having an aquarium in a hospitals surgery room and applying all disinfection procedure to any thing that enters the room). Only at this point it will have a naive immunity system with a blank database.

[wolfel]

My discus when new was really scared of human being. Whoever walked close will cause them to slam here and there onto the walls of the tank. So I tried not to go close it in the beginning.

Now is fine, and they know when I walk close it means food is coming. :)

Exactly... in the beginning when I walked close, turned on the light of the tank, or changed water, they slammed horribly and I can even hear the "bung" sound....I was so worried..

Now after they are familiar with the environment, they seem to be able to see I walk into the kitchen and open the fridge... many times when I do this, all of them swim up to the surface and eagerly waiting for the food coming... In this case I feel regretful not bringing any food and disappointing them..

[SMB2]

@ARGENTUM & AQUADON
I would have to disagree somewhat with your assessment of immune systems. Fish bred in healthy clean environments don't have depressed immune systems so if they are exposed to a new pathogen their system responds the same way a wild fish would. If they survive the pathogen then they have immunity. (If breeders were raising fish with inferior immune systems they would quickly go out of business.) Having a strong immune system does not necessarily improve survival from an infectious disease. There is no such thing as a pathogen free environment. As soon as a fish craps in the water you have pathogens. Also many fish pathogens are ubiquitous in water so there is no escaping them. I am no authority (nor have I read it anywhere) but I would be willing to bet that parental slime carries some antibodies that are passed on to wrigglers, thus conferring some immunity at least early on in life.
Now wild and captive bred fish may have had different exposure histories and I suspect this makes either susceptible to a change in their environment.
The bottom line is that you have to have a healthy fish so that when it faces the stress of a new environment it can ward off infections while it is developing immunity to new pathogens.
Quarantining a fish not only lets you see if an individual is sick, but also lets the fish get over the stress of travel/change, get back on a good diet etc. so that it has the best health when it gets plopped into the display tank (and exposed to a whole new set of stressors).
Again, I find it hard to believe that captive bred fish have depressed or inferior immune systems as Aquadon states, although their exposure history is likely quite different from wild specimens.

[nc0gnet0]

Why is this rubbish info? It's not that I support the statement but I don't think it's completely wrong.

Because it is. You somehow think that our tanks are somehow much cleaner than that of the fish's natural environment in regards to pathogens and parasites. Nothing could be further from the truth. Furthermore, many of our domestics are exposed to many pathogens a wild discus might not ever encounter in it's lifetime. Conversely, by your own logic, you have made a perfect argument as to why domestics are much healthier than thier wild counterparts. Your LFS expert is a moron, most likely only trying to explain away the crap fish he/she is selling.

-Rick

[brewmaster15]

@ARGENTUM & AQUADON
I would have to disagree somewhat with your assessment of immune systems. Fish bred in healthy clean environments don't have depressed immune systems so if they are exposed to a new pathogen their system responds the same way a wild fish would. If they survive the pathogen then they have immunity. (If breeders were raising fish with inferior immune systems they would quickly go out of business.) Having a strong immune system does not necessarily improve survival from an infectious disease. There is no such thing as a pathogen free environment. As soon as a fish craps in the water you have pathogens. Also many fish pathogens are ubiquitous in water so there is no escaping them. I am no authority (nor have I read it anywhere) but I would be willing to bet that parental slime carries some antibodies that are passed on to wrigglers, thus conferring some immunity at least early on in life.
Now wild and captive bred fish may have had different exposure histories and I suspect this makes either susceptible to a change in their environment.
The bottom line is that you have to have a healthy fish so that when it faces the stress of a new environment it can ward off infections while it is developing immunity to new pathogens.
Quarantining a fish not only lets you see if an individual is sick, but also lets the fish get over the stress of travel/change, get back on a good diet etc. so that it has the best health when it gets plopped into the display tank (and exposed to a whole new set of stressors).
Again, I find it hard to believe that captive bred fish have depressed or inferior immune systems as Aquadon states, although their exposure history is likely quite different from wild specimens.


Agree 10000000000... % Stan....and though I can't remember exactly where I read it, the Slimecoat of a discus has been shown to have immuno factors...I'll have to try and dig that up.

hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

generic info on Immune response...

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/general_info/stress2.shtml

source.. Dr. Ruth Francis-Floyd


Defense Against Disease Protective barriers against infection

Mucus (slime coat) is a physical barrier which inhibits entry of disease organisms from the environment into the fish. It is also a chemical barrier because it contains enzymes (lysozymes) and antibodies (immunoglobulins) which can kill invading organisms. Mucus also lubricates the fish which aids movement through the water, and it is also important for osmoregulation.

Scales and skin function as a physical barrier which protects the fish against injury. When these are damaged, a window is opened for bacteria and other organisms to start an infection.

Inflammation (nonspecific cellular response) is a cellular response to an invading protein. An invading protein can be a bacteria, a virus, a parasite, fungus, or a toxin. Inflammation is characterized by pain, swelling, redness, heat, and loss of function. It is a protective response and is an attempt by the body to wall off and destroy the invader.

Antibodies (specific cellular response) are molecules specifically formed to fight invading proteins or organisms. The first time the fish is exposed to an invader, antibodies are formed which will protect the fish from future infection by the same organism. Exposure to sublethal concentrations of pathogens is extremely important for a fish to develop a competent immune system. An animal raised in a sterile environment will have little protection from disease. Young animals do not have an immune response which works as efficiently as the immune response in older animals and therefore, may be susceptible to disease.


As a side comment...I HIGHLY recommend everyone read the entire article...its informative and based on science facts not fiction

[brewmaster15]

I believe that this was the article Stan,

Proteomics. 2006 Apr;6(7):2251-8.
Proteomics profiling of epidermal mucus secretion of a cichlid (Symphysodon aequifasciata) demonstrating parental care behavior.
Chong K1, Joshi S, Jin LT, Shu-Chien AC.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16385477

unfortunately, I have no clue where my copy is now..

[SMB2]

Al,
Both are great articles and point to why those with experience on this site stress water quality etc. Your response is also why I appreciate this forum.
The original OP stirs up some flame throwing which eventually gets mulled over more thoughtfully and finally drills down to some hard core facts by someone like yourself who actually knows something!
Personally I enjoy the discussions about fish biology because of my science/medical background. Understanding the science behind Discus keeping makes all of us better practitioners of the hobby. And as you have pointed out in the past this is a great place to contribute to our own scientific knowledge by pooling data etc.

[dennin7418]

I don't think my intention was to throw flames. There is a lot of importance on water quality, no doubt, but even the most experienced keepers don't have fish that last forever, so I was wondering what a typical "natural" death would be....something that wouldn't necessary be a result of neglect (i.e. poor water care).
-Nick

[Argentum]

@ARGENTUM & AQUADON
I would have to disagree somewhat with your assessment of immune systems. Fish bred in healthy clean environments don't have depressed immune systems

I didn't say that, what I said is that you cant make a sterile environment (sterile means bacteria free), because as you said some of them just occur naturally in any aquatic system. And this is what makes the original claim wrong because clean does not mean sterile.


I am no authority (nor have I read it anywhere) but I would be willing to bet that parental slime carries some antibodies that are passed on to wrigglers, thus conferring some immunity at least early on in life.

As AL said, I remember I read this in a PHD thesis they analysed the slime coat of Discus and found immune factors being among the components. This will also tell us that parent raised fish will have better immunity that those reared artificially at least at their early stages of life.



Because it is. You somehow think that our tanks are somehow much cleaner than that of the fish's natural environment in regards to pathogens and parasites. Nothing could be further from the truth. Furthermore, many of our domestics are exposed to many pathogens a wild discus might not ever encounter in it's lifetime. Conversely, by your own logic, you have made a perfect argument as to why domestics are much healthier than thier wild counterparts. Your LFS expert is a moron, most likely only trying to explain away the crap fish he/she is selling.

-Rick

I am not who claimed the statement neither I support it, I just argued and refuted it logically and stating the reasons. This way it will help others learn instead of just saying this is crap... ******** ..etc. Got my point?
And I don't take my info from the LFS seller I have my own B.Sc in Chemistry & Zoology this helps me to do my own research online and judge is a statement is based in some science or just a random assumption.

[SMB2]

Sorry Dennin, I don't mean to imply that you were throwing flames. Rather that in general a question gets posted, a discussion starts, sparks fly and then the grey beards (I do not in any way include myself in that category!) add some experience.
As to your OP I'm not sure there is a "natural death" in a captive environment. After all I suspect most fish in the wild die from being eaten!
From what I have read here in the past 6-10 years is a well lived fish. I know of three 15 year olds.

[nc0gnet0]

I didn't say that, what I said is that you cant make a sterile environment (sterile means bacteria free), because as you said some of them just occur naturally in any aquatic system. And this is what makes the original claim wrong because clean does not mean sterile.



As AL said, I remember I read this in a PHD thesis they analysed the slime coat of Discus and found immune factors being among the components. This will also tell us that parent raised fish will have better immunity that those reared artificially at least at their early stages of life.




I am not who claimed the statement neither I support it, I just argued and refuted it logically and stating the reasons. This way it will help others learn instead of just saying this is crap... ******** ..etc. Got my point?
And I don't take my info from the LFS seller I have my own B.Sc in Chemistry & Zoology this helps me to do my own research online and judge is a statement is based in some science or just a random assumption.

My bad, when I quoted you I actually thought I was quoting aquadon. His comparing our fish tanks in which we keep our domestic discus in as sterile (when compared to that of the native water of a wild discus) is severely flawed. Now, that being said, even if a discus were to be raised in a completely sterile environment, its immune system would still function when placed in the presence of a pathogen. To assume it wouldn't still respond as effectively as a discus that was not raised in such an environment is not an absolute either.

[aquadon2222]

Is this the info the discus expert is telling ya.. every two weeks?

Maybe this is where all these ideas from previous threads are coming from.. the lfs expert. ..

If so..I can't believe u are paying for this rubbish info

Discus fish are selectively bred - this is how strains are created. Animal populations that are selectively bred and raised in relatively sterile environments, where precautions are taken to avoid exposure to pathogens, can have delicate immune systems. This is widely known in the scientific community and isn't a very controversial statement. (I've got a degree in Biochemistry and don't own a fish store).

Putting that aside, any list of how a fish life ends in an aquarium that includes slamming into the glass and not pathogens is a joke and is a disservice to new discus owner.

[aquadon2222]

Why is this rubbish info? It's not that I support the statement but I don't think it's completely wrong.
I can argue that environment is not sterile in the first place, however, with good husbandry pathogen levels are kept at very low levels so the immune system of the fish forms antibodies against those pathogens and is able to fight them easily because they are available at very low counts.

Remember that immunity systems have memory's and this is a core concept of a vaccine. when you get vaccinated a small concentration of an inactivated virus is injected into your body the virus will not be able to reproduce. However, your immunity system will recognize its "characteristic" "Antigen" and produce the appropriate antibody which is specific to that "Antigen" and this is stored in memory. So next time when you catch the real thing your immunity system already knows how to kill the pathogen.

So the original claim is true if a fish is raised in a completely sterile environment which is very (very x 10 ^99) difficult to maintain (its like having an aquarium in a hospitals surgery room and applying all disinfection procedure to any thing that enters the room). Only at this point it will have a naive immunity system with a blank database.

Thanks for the reasoned post!

[nc0gnet0]

Discus fish are selectively bred - this is how strains are created. Animal populations that are selectively bred and raised in relatively sterile environments, where precautions are taken to avoid exposure to pathogens, can have delicate immune systems. This is widely known in the scientific community and isn't a very controversial statement. (I've got a degree in Biochemistry and don't own a fish store).

Putting that aside, any list of how a fish life ends in an aquarium that includes slamming into the glass and not pathogens is a joke and is a disservice to new discus owner.


Why would pathogens play a major role in cause of death when, by YOUR definition, we raise and keep them in sterile or relatively sterile conditions?

Disclaimer: I am not a biologist, biochemist, zoologist, botanist, pharmacist, or any other ****ist, however I did sleep at a holiday inn express last night and I have as much, if not more, bs as the next guy.

[Argentum]

Disclaimer: I am not a biologist, biochemist, zoologist, botanist, pharmacist, or any other ****ist, however I did sleep at a holiday inn express last night and I have as much, if not more, bs as the next guy.

LOL

[tonytheboss1]

Very interesting discussion arrows & daggers aside. Not having an "****ist" (I like that nc0gnet0) background, I try my best to keep it simple. Sometimes it doesn't work. This is one. Raising any type of animal in a controlled environment is gonna both help & hamper it somewhat at the same time. The key to dealing with any kind of adverse change is having GOOD HEALTH to begin with. If the subject is strong enough, it can ward off the invading disease or pathogen. Multiple or constant repeat invasions will eventually take its toll. Invasion by something so strong that the system just can't defend will also take its toll. Limiting the exposure to unknowns will have positive effects on life expectancy. "Death" from "Old Age" is nothing more than system failure. The body is no longer able to fight the good fight & shuts down to rest for good. So if you do everything right & the stars are in alignment & you cross your fingers & eat your spinach the end result after "X" amount of years will eventually be to have the body say, " 'F' it, I QUIT "!!! "T"

[Skip]

Thanks for the reasoned post!

Reasoned cuz it agrees with u.. ? Other are not cuz the dont agree?.. I think thats how it works

[dirtyplants]

Remember that immunity systems have memory's and this is a core concept of a vaccine. when you get vaccinated a small concentration of an inactivated virus is injected into your body the virus will not be able to reproduce. However, your immunity system will recognize its "characteristic" "Antigen" and produce the appropriate antibody which is specific to that "Antigen" and this is stored in memory. So next time when you catch the real thing your immunity system already knows how to kill the pathogen


Discus fish are selectively bred - this is how strains are created. Animal populations that are selectively bred and raised in relatively sterile environments, where precautions are taken to avoid exposure to pathogens, can have delicate immune systems. This is widely known in the scientific community and isn't a very controversial statement. (I've got a degree in Biochemistry and don't own a fish store).


Disclaimer: I am not a biologist, biochemist, zoologist, botanist, pharmacist, or any other ****ist, however I did sleep at a holiday inn express last night and I have as much, if not more, bs as the next guy.

I am not a biochemist I regret I did not like chemistry, because now I have forgotten most of my chemistry which is the building blocks for most of what I am interested in. Even if I were a biochemist I would not use it to make a point more pointed, another words I would not use it to pull rank. I think this is much more complicated then sterile verses non sterile and both have their issues which fisheries have been trying to decode for decades. Nature has it's own culling to ensure the DNA and immune systems of newly hatched fish are strong and healthy. The weak just do not survive. Breeding properly will also produce a strong immune system, and if done properly will produce a fish highly tolerant of most water conditions. EG Barbs are very hardy, and can survive tremendous abuse, is a barbs biology much different then a discus no, it comes with decades of abuse and loss in captive breeding. If you ask Kenny or Hans about this, they will mention the catch phrase of proven strains. I think one would have to look into the chemistry of the slime coat of a new mother and father discus and compare it to the slime coat of a serrate parent to see the benefits of immunity, much like mothers milk from breast feeding. What I would like to see with captive breeding is awards given for not only looks but for hardiness and tolerance, creating a stronger discus.
As a side note I would suspect that captive fish are a hundred more times exposed to intense pathogens and poor conditions then in the wild, so the opportunity to produce sickly fish are greater but the survivors more likely to produce offspring with stronger immune systems.

[Argentum]

As a side note I would suspect that captive fish are a hundred more times exposed to intense pathogens and poor conditions then in the wild, so the opportunity to produce sickly fish are greater but the survivors more likely to produce offspring with stronger immune systems.

Does experience support this? I mean are wild caught fish more prone to disease when raised in aquariums?

[dirtyplants]

I could not tell you honestly, if a healthy wild is caught does it have the same immunity? That might depend on a whole lot of factors. It might be an interesting investigative subject here on SD, though. MY side note is based on fisheries not necessary small glass boxes and truly this is a subject which I will have look into and give much more thought to. I totally understand your points in this, but I don't think enough studies have been done in the slime immunities for offspring to make a good hypothesis with. This would enlist people who breed for scientific knowledge not just physical characteristics.This would make an interesting debate especially with people who have kept wilds for a long while. My first discus were wilds but I have not had wilds in a long enough time span to compare it's resistance to common pathogens found in fisheries and in the aquarium. This is an interesting subject one I hope continues. Heathy wild discus's immunity compared to proven strains of healthy stock, although hard to document, might be a subject worth discussing further, it may lead to clues in keeping discus healthy and strong for the aquarist.


As a side note I would suspect that captive fish are a hundred more times exposed to intense pathogens and poor conditions then in the wild, so the opportunity to produce sickly fish are greater but the survivors more likely to produce offspring with stronger immune systems.

If pathogens, like protozoans, for example, which in a closed system, like an aquarium, can multiple exponentially, the weaker will succumb. I think the question here is can a sterile environment truly exist in a closed system, and do those who survive truly pass on a stronger immune system to their offsprings? The real question for me is do the offspring of a closed system develop strong immune systems from their parents through their slime coats, more, if the parents were exposed to more pathogens then to say wilds who are exposed to less pathogens because of the nature of water movement and replenishment. Do the wilds pass on a stronger immunity to their offspring through their slime coats with less parasite infestation then domestics who are in a continuing battle with parasite proliferation and infestation due to the nature of a closed system? I don't beleive there are studies out there because there is no money in it. The nature of the offspring needing to feed off of the parents would not make discus a fast money maker for large outlets like fisheries.

[John_Nicholson]

Discus fish are selectively bred - this is how strains are created. Animal populations that are selectively bred and raised in relatively sterile environments, where precautions are taken to avoid exposure to pathogens, . This is widely known in the scientific community and isn't a very controversial statement. (I've got a degree in Biochemistry and don't own a fish store).

Putting that aside, any list of how a fish life ends in an aquarium that includes slamming into the glass and not pathogens is a joke and is a disservice to new discus owner.

Why do you do this? You are like a palm reader. You keep talking without really saying anything. You also like to state things that cannot be proven or disproven. Such as "can have delicate immune systems". It is like me saying I could go out in a thunder storm and get hit by lightning. It could happen but since I have better sense then to go play in a thunder storm we will never know. The use of the word "can" makes you argument completely useless. You like to take a fact and misuse it to try and proven your point. First what animal breed was developed through selective breedig in a relatively sterlie enviroment? I would say none with the expection of experiments in a lab. That is comparing apples to oranges...which of course if another of your favorite moves. I really don't understand why you feel the need to try and pass yourself off as a expert in regards to discus. By you own admission you are pretty new at this.

Now for the question at hand.....Having a discus charge the glass and kill themselves is not that uncommon when you are robbing fry. I am not saying it is common ut it is not unheard of either. I normally raise fish, get them to pair, raise a few spawns and them sell them. The ones that I have had that died here either cahrged the glass or when they reached the age that they were just wasting away I would cull them.

-john

[SMB2]

Again, I think captive bred Discus and Wilds have the same immune system. What they are exposed to is the variable.
Being in an enclosed system puts all aquarium Discus at risk because the pathogens are ever present.
In the wild Discus have much more stable water conditions. Their health has to be robust or they get eaten. I doubt Discus in the Wild die of ich. Further in large schools, Discus may benefit from "Herd Immunity". That is if most of the members are immune to a pathogen it is less likely to spread to the unexposed.
Breeders may do a better job at diet and water changes so their fish stay healthier (than in some aquarist tanks), and they are quick to cull the weak fish. When sold, the fish get stressed, Wild or Captive bred. How we reduce that threat determines the success of keeping the fish.

[Argentum]

Again, I think captive bred Discus and Wilds have the same immune system.

I think this statement can't be concluded that simple, it needs scientific research to determine this and measure it. Which is unlikely to happen.

However I read a publication which mapped the genetic pool of the four wild species and 8 domestic and it concluded that the results indicate that all the domestic strains descend from the wild Green discus.

And among ll wilds the Heckel has the largest gene pool, and the recommended crossing with it to enhance the genetic base and produce not only more variants but also reduce the chances of deformities. This is off-topic but since the discussion is about resistance and health, this is a method to produce healthier fish, concluded through scientific research.

[John_Nicholson]

"However I read a publication which mapped the genetic pool of the four wild species and 8 domestic and it concluded that the results indicate that all the domestic strains descend from the wild Green discus."

Not sure where you found this but if I were you I would quit reading it. Whoever did this "study" is apparently not qualified to do one. The history of the domestic dsicus is not that old. While most of the old timers have passed one there are still a few around. It is not some huge deep dark secret just because of a few new folks arrived on the scene. Greens were probably used the most but they were far from the only one used.

-john

[Skip]

how are ya'll quantifying an GOOD or Bad IMMUNE System..

[JmDiscuss]

This is a great topic with a lot of good and bad info, Now lets go the other way, and no lies, what is the oldest discus anyone here has and what did they do to keep them alive. I have 2 and in sept they will be 4 years old..

[pcsb23]

Discus fish are selectively bred - this is how strains are created. Animal populations that are selectively bred and raised in relatively sterile environments, where precautions are taken to avoid exposure to pathogens, can have delicate immune systems. This is widely known in the scientific community and isn't a very controversial statement. (I've got a degree in Biochemistry and don't own a fish store). If you in breed any animal it WILL ultimately become genetically weak. For sure with some aquarium fish this has been an issue in the past (and may still be) - an example was the angel fish. However the vast majority of commercially bred discus are bred form stock with a suitably wide genetic pool so it is extremely unlikely they will have "delicate immune systems". I'm not sure why you keep referring to sterile environments either as in practise this is not the case - agreed that all good commercial breeders exercise good bio security, they would be fools not to, but the environment is far from sterile. And to be clear, this is not my opinion, I have visited enough commercial breeders to know this as fact.

The most in bred discus tend to be what are called albinos - these tend to have more issues but these are in the main restricted to slightly less vigorous growth and poorer eyesight. I haven't enough experience of albinos yet to know if their life expectancy is affected in anyway, but my experience suggests they are no more prone to illness than any other discus.



Putting that aside, any list of how a fish life ends in an aquarium that includes slamming into the glass and not pathogens is a joke and is a disservice to new discus owner.Really? Ever seen how fast a discus accelerates when startled? They hit the ends of a tank with considerable force, sometimes they will stun themselves, sometimes they will launch themselves out of the tank, sometimes they hit a sharp edge (equipment/wood/decor etc) ... if they happen to be very protective parents then they will also charge you, sometimes when you are just looking too! ... nope, sorry but no joke, again personal experience


Does experience support this? I mean are wild caught fish more prone to disease when raised in aquariums?fwiw my own experience suggest very little difference once acclimated (which also applies to domestics btw). If anything I've found them to be perhaps a little more tolerant (but that could be they cost more so got preferential treatment!).


Again, I think captive bred Discus and Wilds have the same immune system. What they are exposed to is the variable.
Being in an enclosed system puts all aquarium Discus at risk because the pathogens are ever present.
In the wild Discus have much more stable water conditions. Their health has to be robust or they get eaten. I doubt Discus in the Wild die of ich. Further in large schools, Discus may benefit from "Herd Immunity". That is if most of the members are immune to a pathogen it is less likely to spread to the unexposed.
Breeders may do a better job at diet and water changes so their fish stay healthier (than in some aquarist tanks), and they are quick to cull the weak fish. When sold, the fish get stressed, Wild or Captive bred. How we reduce that threat determines the success of keeping the fish.Some valid observations there imo/e - the biggest risk to discus (any fish) is stress. One of the effects of an animal being under stress is it's immune system slows down, i.e. weakens (in some cases shuts down). At this time the animal is now extremely vulnerable to any pathogen, even those it has successfully managed previously. I too agree that most wild caught discus will meet their end by being another animals dinner :)


I think this statement can't be concluded that simple, it needs scientific research to determine this and measure it. Which is unlikely to happen.

However I read a publication which mapped the genetic pool of the four wild species and 8 domestic and it concluded that the results indicate that all the domestic strains descend from the wild Green discus.

And among ll wilds the Heckel has the largest gene pool, and the recommended crossing with it to enhance the genetic base and produce not only more variants but also reduce the chances of deformities. This is off-topic but since the discussion is about resistance and health, this is a method to produce healthier fish, concluded through scientific research.I'd be interested in the source of this study as I believe it is wrong (if I get time I'll try and find sources, until then my feeble memory will have to do :o). The early domestic discus were derived from blue/brown discus, these were shipped over to Germany in barrels and I believe some were also sent to the USA. The earliest discus I saw were browns. The earliest domestic discus were strains such as turks and santerems. I'm quite sure that widening the gene pool will allow greater variance of morphs. I believe that the study you read was flawed or that you may have missed an important criteria, e.g. why only 8 domestic discus? (presumably strains not single fish).


"However I read a publication which mapped the genetic pool of the four wild species and 8 domestic and it concluded that the results indicate that all the domestic strains descend from the wild Green discus."

Not sure where you found this but if I were you I would quit reading it. Whoever did this "study" is apparently not qualified to do one. The history of the domestic dsicus is not that old. While most of the old timers have passed one there are still a few around. It is not some huge deep dark secret just because of a few new folks arrived on the scene. Greens were probably used the most but they were far from the only one used.

-johnAs previously I'd be surprised if Greens were or are the most widely used, if pushed I'd have said blue/brown, then greens then heckels ... if pushed ;)


how are ya'll quantifying an GOOD or Bad IMMUNE System..Not sure how others quantify it, I don't really other than to say it either works or it doesn't :)


This is a great topic with a lot of good and bad info, Now lets go the other way, and no lies, what is the oldest discus anyone here has and what did they do to keep them alive. I have 2 and in sept they will be 4 years old..Not sure that this will help this thread and if you search you will find many other threads on how long a discus lives, but for the record the longest I have kept a discus is around 10 years, bought as a juvenile and given away to someone who had always wanted it.

[John_Nicholson]

This is a great topic with a lot of good and bad info, Now lets go the other way, and no lies, what is the oldest discus anyone here has and what did they do to keep them alive. I have 2 and in sept they will be 4 years old..

With good care you can get one to 10 -12 fairly easy. I rarely keep them that long but have had them hit double digits in age before. The key to it is clean water and good food. I keep all of my discus in bare bottom tanks. I truly believe it improves their health a tremendous amount.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

With good care you can get one to 10 -12 fairly easy. I rarely keep them that long but have had them hit double digits in age before. The key to it is clean water and good food. I keep all of my discus in bare bottom tanks. I truly believe it improves their health a tremendous amount.

-john

Not disagreeing, but curious as to what you might say is the "average" life span of a domestic discus. If I had to ponder a guess, under near ideal conditions, would be 5-6 years. I could be wrong, but I expect that heavy breeding might effect the life expectancy somewhat as well.

-Rick

[Skip]

it would be hard to find someone that has kept a discus for its entire lifespan without premature death from owner mistakes

[CobaltBerry]

it would be hard to find someone that has kept a discus for its entire lifespan without premature death from owner mistakes

Like going on vacation and the person you let care for them messing up, power going out for an extended time, equipment failure, kids, dogs/cats. There are almost more external ways to kill a fish than parasites/bacteria. I still think hitting the glass is a big one. My newest one did it yesterday and scared me silly. It's amazing the force those little fish can get.

[nc0gnet0]

it would be hard to find someone that has kept a discus for its entire lifespan without premature death from owner mistakes

I am going to bite my tongue on that one, but dam dude, you really set yourself up this time!

;)

[Skip]

I am going to bite my tongue on that one, but dam dude, you really set yourself up this time!

was that too close to home for you?

[nc0gnet0]

was that too close to home for you?

Nope, not for me, my discus are doing just fine. :)

[John_Nicholson]

I would guess the average to be more like 6 to 8 years with the proper care.

-john

[SMB2]

Earlier in the thread there was a discussion about the Slime Coat and the role it played in acting as a biologic barrier to disease. Al referenced an article.
Why do we see so many pics posted of fish being held for display or to measure them? Even with wet hands some of the Slime Coat has to be disturbed (most likely fish that are going to be shipped/stressed) and that can't be great for the fish.
In practice does it just not make a difference?

[Skip]

Why do we see so many pics posted of fish being held for display or to measure them? Even with wet hands some of the Slime Coat has to be disturbed (most likely fish that are going to be shipped/stressed) and that can't be great for the fish.
In practice does it just not make a difference?

its not like they are taken out of tank everyday... its done every few months.? or yearly..

it won't hurt them