BUGGER !~! don't want to loose fish please help

[musicmarn1]

Husbandry:

tank - QT new non seeded sponges when they arrived 90% daily wc

water aged, hauled drinking water, 200 TDS some iron as seen in pictures - Hauled water so better than my well water, some chlorine so use prime.

no other tank mates for 4 weeks just the fish he came with

added other QT extremely vital and healthy tefe discus after 6 weeks (first mistake i should have left longer?)

clean bb tank

no plants no other fish

filters - 2 sponges and aquaclear in 55g tank with white walls and a towel at one end for hiding behind

Health of the fish shipped with him: all fish except him were bold and hand feeding
cones to hide behind

feeding :* bills super beef heart with pro growth they loved it right away,
*forrest new bites,
*hans pellet,
*home grown, cleaned white worms or red wrigglers weekly as treat he got the least the other fish snarfed em but he got some
water temp 84
cleaning:wiping walls down daily for first two weeks then every few days after that
each time i wiped walls i would rinse one sponge or the filter so rotating which got cleaned every few days in tap water i have well so no chlorine



initial symptoms : scratched eye, torn fins. leaning heavily after shipping (fed ex played volley ball with package or he was just super wild and feisty)
medications : only salt
improved? : yes….until last 4 days sudden turn for worse
other green tefe: ALL super great and bold and no bullying or dissension hiding or dark color or lack of appetite or anything i know in my shallow repertoire as *bad* except camera shy

NOW 20g hospital tank for last 4 days
leaning heavily and white marks/rings
scratched eye now scratches are obviously cloudy - CLEAN water so please don't say that ill scream


---------------------------


please for my brain sake don't post too many different answers :fried: (though i truly and deeply appreciate ANSWERS) it gets confusing for a beginner, i learned a little bit from Kenny (Kenny is the BEST ) on basic first aid in case anyone got sick ever again but i honestly don't know how to treat this……(is it bacterial or fungal, my gut says bacterial after damage in shipping but what med? my eyes see stuff on the outside …don't think its parasites think its body rot fungal or bacteria but i didnt want to throw meds at him when clean water might heal).


got back from a short business trip (husband was good and took this picture and kept him clean) and the one green tefe i got a few weeks ago is doing much worse :( dammit ! he got REALLY beat up in shipping and i contacted everyone and asked advice everyone replied = clean water, rest , dim lights, light feeds, more water changes, clean clean bb tank and a nice heaping of salt to help his torn fins and scratched eyes and wounds. i followed (and i mean followed) diligently.

he made a VALIANT effort at recovery but still leaned when id do things like water changes etc. he went pale two weeks later and he got some white on his eye - TWO water changes a day instead of one 80% a day then, two 60% change instead.

and then his color came back totally and he was eating well not loosing much weight during this did not see ANY funny poop but his eye did not get worse…did not get better so clean water clean water and 3-4 hours reading disease section to scour for answers.

NOW he has marks !! UGH and he is leaning terribly, he has not got clamped side fins just top fins are down, as in when they don't feel good but not so miserable his gill fins were clamped. his gills went dark the first day and i hospitalized him and increased o2 and started salt again which seems to make him better, he rallied for two days now this

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0169.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/Musicmarn/media/DSC_0169.jpg.html)

[musicmarn1]

second picture during wc and filter clean bit pale compared to others

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, in the picture it looks like the siphon hose got him. The mark is nearly a perfect circle. Is the other mark a scape?

[nwehrman]

ok... maybe I missed something here but the marks to me look like he got sucked up to the siphon for water drain or a power head or something... to make those specific marks. That is my opinion of those anyway. If it were me - I would think bacterial probably after all of this and Kanamycin would be my drug of choice for 10 days but keep up the water changes and redose at every water change. But once again that is just my opinion...

[musicmarn1]

Marnie, in the picture it looks like the siphon hose got him. The mark is nearly a perfect circle. Is the other mark a scape?


:computer::mad::shocked::shocked::shocked2::sick2: husband:smash::whip::vanish::undecided:



oh…..my…..god…..my husband sucked him up ………….


ok i don't exactly have an alibi here for husband murder while i was on business - SO *mutes rage* think Marnie think - he MUST be sick already if my husband drains the hose by mouth suction and leaves pipe in there weighted down .. instead of hand wanding……*breathe* he must not be recovered, his fins now i use a camera not a phone look bad still but you can kinda tell his color was coming back he WAS washed out and pale and then he started getting bright but his eye didnt get better his fins didnt get better and with the eye and the phone i couldn't see the scrape but i used salt !!!

so what to do now

vote 1 for ------- Kanamycin (thank you so much i have $150 not including shipping in my amazon cart right now to order so i have everything here in case someone helps me decide what meds to use ! i didn't have that one in the cart!

[OC Discus]

I'm sorry, but I can't keep up with the initial description of the problem. Using the questionnaire would clarify things for me.

[nc0gnet0]

Furan 2 and hope no internal damage was done during the siphon accident. Siphon got him a little to close to tummy for comfort. Kanamycin is great for internal issues, furan 2 is my med of choice for external.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

Clean water might be enough if its just a scrape without infection.

[musicmarn1]

thankyou - its clear i think meds are needed

1/. he was sick after shipping - torn fins, beat up

2/. he rallied then my husband sucked him up as he was still weak !

3/. karamycin AND furan 2 ??? because at this point it is external and internal surely.

he was leaning, he has fin damage, he has scrapes on side and eyes from shipping but he WAS hanging in there thanks to sponsors amazing job at having him healthy prior to fed ex damage in shipping or natural shipping accident…


4/. can both meds be used together? if not which first i feel he has been struggling with fins and damage but he WAS i mean it doing better - but no healthy fish i ever had got sucked up by a hose operated by mouth suction??!?!?!


5/. i drove back from a looong way today so i just wrote from the heart just didn't cut and paste the questionaire i apologize

[nc0gnet0]

A siphon can actually produce pretty strong suction, depends a lot on the diameter of the hose. Kanamycin can be used in conjunction with furan 2 yes, but I don't see the need for the kanamycin, I would go with just the furan 2. Nothing you have described points to an internal infection, what I said was the siphon might have caused internal damage, buts lets hope not.


-Rick

[musicmarn1]

THANKYOU for replying so soon

i mean it thank you id be watching a beautiful fish die because i know nothing about meds and clean water and salt are not cutting it - he gets better then worse. last 4 days.

SO - question - *nothing you have said points to internal * oh, i thought it must be since he got sucked up its a small but thick black hose 3/4" and he has been leaning slightly for WEEKS after the shipping damage i thought i saw clean water and good food helping but not curing so that might point to actual internal…but i AM a rank newb.

i need help and im listening.

i have questions to understand, im also just ordering everything and asking questions to make sure i don't kill him with the wrong meds or the wrong order of meds

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, I think Rick has a good plan.

[dirtyplants]

This fish was stressed out from the beginning, and perhaps weak enough to be sucked by the syphon, Furan 2 is not a bad plan, WC a must, the fact that he rallies after the salt treatment means there is some relief. Pictures not great. I can't see the eyes well enough. It does look like a scrape though, no fungus? Stress and poor water through shipping may allow a lot of things internally to go awry give him a good situation to improve without stress. Watch for secondary infections.

[musicmarn1]

ok thankyou so much furan 2 it is and ill get better pictures

[dirtyplants]

Watch his gills I am concerned that water went bad in shipping, and if he had parasites already that stressor would make him a good meal, it is well documented that discus emit a hormone that flukes proliferate in when under stress. Do the furan 2 as Rick suggested, but watch for signs of possible external parasite infection. Healthy fish usually run to the opposite side of the tank with hoses, they look much like snakes I guess. Wilds are very curious and can over come their fears to check out something interesting, but sounds he was having problems from the get go.

[pcsb23]

Watch his gills I am concerned that water went bad in shipping, and if he had parasites already that stressor would make him a good meal, it is well documented that discus emit a hormone that flukes proliferate in when under stress. Do the furan 2 as Rick suggested, but watch for signs of possible external parasite infection. Healthy fish usually run to the opposite side of the tank with hoses, they look much like snakes I guess. Wilds are very curious and can over come their fears to check out something interesting, but sounds he was having problems from the get go.Can you link the source of the info regarding hormones? I've not heard of that before.

[dirtyplants]

Yes Paul, Un. of Florida mentions it and a few others I will need to look for the others but should be able to fine the Florida source quicker. I have finally learned to book mark this stuff.
Here is a quote of a reference from Un. of Florida which makes reference:

A number of chemicals have been used to control monogenean infestations of fish (Table 3). However, treatment of monogeneans must be accompanied by identification and reduction of environmental or husbandry-related stressors, if they are present. As mentioned in the introduction, stressors include inadequate nutrition, poor water quality conditions, over-crowding, antagonistic behavior of other resident fishes, etc. Stressful conditions can not only inhibit the immune system of the fish, but also result in release of cortisol, a stress hormone. In studies of monogenean-infested fish, exposing them to corticosteroids (stress hormones) induced monogenean reproduction.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes Paul, Un. of Florida mentions it and a few others I will need to look for the others but should be able to fine the Florida source quicker. I have finally learned to book mark this stuff.

Coree, always a good idea to link your sources so others can learn too.

[dirtyplants]

Coree, always a good idea to link your sources so others can learn too.



Dah! You would have thought I would have figured that out much quicker. :) I now try to book mark everything that deems interesting.

[OC Discus]

Just highlight the address bar in a key page, copy it, then paste it in your reply on sd. The op can click it and go to that page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[musicmarn1]

Can you link the source of the info regarding hormones? I've not heard of that before.

Paul did you have any thoughts on this?

here are pictures i took today he obviously perks up on water changes, he left all his flake so i switched to worms which he ate i called a fish vet in colorado and she hasn't seen pictures yet but she suggested melaflix which i hear is pretty useless from the forum…

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0182.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/Musicmarn/media/DSC_0182.jpg.html)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0197.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/Musicmarn/media/DSC_0197.jpg.html)


http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0178.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/Musicmarn/media/DSC_0178.jpg.html)

[nc0gnet0]

i called a fish vet in colorado and she hasn't seen pictures yet but she suggested melaflix which i hear is pretty useless from the forum…

Time to find a new vet. The cloudy eye is the most troublesome, this is always signs of a bacterial infection. is he getting picked on at all by other fish?

[musicmarn1]

i totally agree and appreciate you saying so, he perks up then leans like the last one and my gut was saying he needed antibiotics i ordered both kinds and was also recommended kanamyacin so am waiting for those to come in but it takes days and i need to get him better before he gets any weaker (ordered them in but was going to only try ONE not throw them all at him just to be clear)

i HAVE ampicillin from local vet(not the other one) , treats positive and negative gram bacteria i just added the dose for 10g and will watch him 24.7 to make sure he does not deteriorate its a strong med but he obviously needs help and just water changes and salt not doing it. he is not being picked on NOW in hospital but probably was in the tefe tank, what i saw was very very mild but it didnt help


im determined to heal this fish and need all help doing so so please keep the comments coming ill post his progress or lack thereof he was really almost his old self after a water change today and i posted only the worst pictures so not to make it look better than it is , he then tires out and gets weak again he is eating blood worms which i only bought to keep his strength up he didnt eat his white worms :(

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, how weak is he?

[musicmarn1]

ill get a video to answer that

he weakens and then acts fairly normal then weaker again, he is getting worse not better he rallies then fades but leans more not laying flat just leaning i am worried im running out of time ! :sick2:

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, can you touch him?

[musicmarn1]

he would swim away - but i can get him if needed, you mean is he weak enough to reach in and poke? no he moves away

[Second Hand Pat]

Have you started the furan 2 treatment Marnie?

[musicmarn1]

meds did not come i ordered as soon as suggested but it takes days for shipping here :( could not get an option to expedite on amazon

i started with ampicillin since i don't want to wait. one cap to 10g of water


the video is uploading to you tube but he started swimming more since i added it i think it agitates him? OR it was just two water changes and blood worms - the video is taking ages to upload

[jmf3460]

I just read this entire thread and I just want to say Marnie that I am cheering for you. he is a beautiful fish and I hope that he will get better for you. its a shame when the husband/boyfriend tries to help you out and just doesn't get it. I can say from experience I have seen even the tiniest of fish get better after a siphon accident so hopefully your beautiful discus will too! please please please keep us posted with play by play results.

[musicmarn1]

I just read this entire thread and I just want to say Marnie that I am cheering for you. he is a beautiful fish and I hope that he will get better for you. its a shame when the husband/boyfriend tries to help you out and just doesn't get it. I can say from experience I have seen even the tiniest of fish get better after a siphon accident so hopefully your beautiful discus will too! please please please keep us posted with play by play results.

*hug* much appreciated !

[musicmarn1]

here he is after his second water change - swimming around more but for sure almost agitated i think

my theories :

1/. he feels better enough to stress about being in hospital
2/. ampicillin making him feel agitated

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0213.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/Musicmarn/media/DSC_0213.jpg.html)

[dirtyplants]

Looking good so far.

[musicmarn1]

Ty Coree !!! your comments were greatly appreciated , i have been checking gills and poop for parasites and i really value your eye seeing any changes good or bad ! ty ty

[dirtyplants]

I watch my wilds like a hawk. I don't want to loose them and it took so long and a lot of tag with the weather to get them. So I have been holding my breath for your guy.

[musicmarn1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tZr5giVkwQ

Video - how bad does he look?
Is he too distressed ?
he is back to resting/leaning again for last two hours it took to load this - i guess ill have to see how he is tomorrow !

and yes i changed more water i put waaaay to many worms in

[pcsb23]

I can't view youtube at work, it's blocked. But I wouldn't have treated with any antibiotic. I have lost count of the number of hickeys I've given discus. Yet to lose one. Clean water usually is all that is required.

[nc0gnet0]

I can't view youtube at work, it's blocked. But I wouldn't have treated with any antibiotic. I have lost count of the number of hickeys I've given discus. Yet to lose one. Clean water usually is all that is required.

Antibiotic was not for the hickys but for the fin rot and cloudy eyes just to clarify. fish does look much better in last picture however as opposed to this pic:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/Musicmarn/DSC_0169.jpg



putting a strainer over the tank end of the siphon hose will prevent hickys btw.


-Rick

[pcsb23]

Not saying it was wrong to use ABs, just a different approach is all. Wherever possible I try and avoid meds (believe it or not).

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, you can place a feeding cone over the tank end of the hose when draining to avoid the hickey. The suction will hold it in place.

[nc0gnet0]

I do a quick bottom vac of debris then I slip one of these over the intake of the hose:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnum-350-Eclipse-1-System-12-Filter-Intake-Strainer-Marineland-PA1462-/300848563290?pt=Fish_Filters&hash=item460bf8c45a


or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intake-Strainer-for-Fluval-106-206-Filter-Canister-/231168004010?pt=Fish_Filters&hash=item35d2afcfaa


no more hickeys

[dirtyplants]

Very nice hearing your voice, he is a bit excited, but mine get that way when I come into the room. I am food, but they come right up to me and wag yes they way their tails. Again watch for signs of of parasites and watch to see if he leans always on one side, left or right? Also if any gill clamping is still going on. Water changes as long as it does not stress him out multiple times a day is ok. My fish do not like the water changes, it stresses them out so I will do one a day, if yours stresses out you could do one large per day or multiple small during the day. Move slowly and stay on the opposite end of the tank. Try dimming the tank and see if his hyper activeness continues. He may not like being alone.

[musicmarn1]

Thankyou guys, I really strongly feel med was needed because for weeks I did religious water changes and salt and he was getting worse. I know not to jump in with meds and I was very careful to give water and rest every chance. But I should have isolated him sooner too perhaps then I would have had better result. In fact im sure if I was beter at this I could have avoided meds and hickys! 14 months into discus I gave my first discus hickys, domestics never got them like coree said wilds are way more into my stuff when I mess with tank:o

Leaning to right only top fins down not gill fins. Cloudy eye from scratch not bad water. Torn fins not healed but I did not know it was actual rot they did not seem worse it was shipping damage but not healed?

He is no worse no better today just leaning and resting I am trying to leave him alone since I did so much yesterday will do wc later




Thanks for hicky prevention advice!! Will get a strainer Thankyou for links Rick!!!!!!

[musicmarn1]

Very nice hearing your voice, he is a bit excited, but mine get that way when I come into the room. I am food, but they come right up to me and wag yes they way their tails. Again watch for signs of of parasites and watch to see if he leans always on one side, left or right? Also if any gill clamping is still going on. Water changes as long as it does not stress him out multiple times a day is ok. My fish do not like the water changes, it stresses them out so I will do one a day, if yours stresses out you could do one large per day or multiple small during the day. Move slowly and stay on the opposite end of the tank. Try dimming the tank and see if his hyper activeness continues. He may not like being alone.



Yes he does not like being alone
Wc both stresses him and feels good I visibly see both responses
I have towels around sides and lid on top
Im sick my voice sounds like gravel LOL
No ckamping of gills bot dorsal fins sqished down often., sad puppy.
Letting him rest but AB will kill bioload so need the wc regardless of stress but like you say trying to figure out which is nicer for him smaller or less but larger changes...

[dirtyplants]

Yes you are right about the antibiotics. Keep me posted like Pat and a few other wilds have a soft spot within me. i learned fins will grow back, and I beleive that upper fin is a good tell about how the fish is feeling. I have found in mine that when they start to become weakened they lower that top fin a bit. No for those those who want proof, can't prove it, I just watch behavior.

[Susie]

I would use Furan 2 right now. Hope it works!

[nc0gnet0]

Have you ever considered he just doesn't like your water?

[musicmarn1]

once i get him over the injuries i can use some RO but for QT and hospital thats just not feasible.

but even though you could be spot on, no reason why he wouldn't have healed with all the clean water i put him in unless he was so weakened from shipping secondary infection set in right? so once i get him healed i can soften the water, the other fish are thriving though. weaker fish would have loved softer water i totally concede that point. hmm.

Pat what say you? time to get the RO out and soften his water? if so best way not to stress him further doing it?


Suzie *hugs* if you read my posts you will see i ordered furan 2 but spoke to 2 different fish vets who are in colorado (deliveries here can take longer than i wanted to wait for the other meds) and they gave me good antibiotics and careful dosing to use in its place.


AMPICILLIN 250mg x 100ct General antibiotic(Ampicillin) capsule. Indicated for the control of common bacterial diseases of fish, including fin and tail rot and flexibacter infections. Each capsule contains 250 mg of ampicillin. Dosage: Add contents of capsule to the aquarium water. Use one capsule for each 10 gallons of water. Repeat in 24 hours


furan 2 would have been drug of choice since so many recommended but i never had to use antibiotics for fish before and didnt have it. was relying soley on clean water and salt

[brewmaster15]

Marnie,
Is there any chance that there was a pH crash or some issue with pH or chemicals in that tank. That eye trauma and fins look like pH related burns or some kind of chemical burns , and the behavior is also what you would see with this kind of scenario.

-al

[musicmarn1]

Al your a genius - there was absolutely a pH problem since he had almost no water (hence air would have made ammonia burn) from shipping and i had to move him quickly (no drip acclimation) to the aquarium. i wrote to Mark and several people to find out what to do but didnt want to wait he was barely moving. he did recover but as we can see the damage was done. i always thought going to a higher pH was much safer - was it just ammonia or was it also the change in ph to a much higher than in the bag?

i learned the one long mark was a pH burn from this but never knew it could be the EYE too !!!! it was dire straits when he arrived and it was a matter of life or death to get him in to the water there was barely any water in his bag he was dark and couldn't tell if breathing and i don't know what else i could have done - we obviously got him eating again and recovering somewhat but leaning never went away so i take it the damage caused him a lot of stress. and would explain why he got hickeys from the suction hose?

i did not know at that time pH burn can happen from going to a higher pH

THANKYOU AL YOU SOLVED THE MYSTERY !!!!! but now what? is the question. he is leaning a little less today


just to be clear there are no chemicals in the tank i do add a little peat extract the same amount each time. its mechanical and biological filtration only and he was like this from the day one. none of the other wilds have this issue.




Marnie,
Is there any chance that there was a pH crash or some issue with pH or chemicals in that tank. That eye trauma and fins look like pH related burns or some kind of chemical burns , and the behavior is also what you would see with this kind of scenario.

-al

[dirtyplants]

Ok lets look at issues, trauma, ammonia burn, lack of water, change of pH, sucked up, bad eye is it scratched? or a symptom of the shipping issues? Give him stability, I would not change any thing until he settles in. My feelings are stabilize this fish then make changes.

[brewmaster15]

Marnie,
A fishes first line of defense against things is its slime coat, and that protects it from everything from parasites, to bacterias...it also acts as barrier . Whenever a fish is shipped, even by the best shippers, it is netted, handled, and the slime coat is damaged to varying degrees. If the fish has an uneventful journey the damage is minimum, maybe some dull patches, frayed fins. etc.. ..but if you take the same fish and put thru poor handling by the carriers or other issues and the fish can really take a beating now....The result can be chemical burns (pH, ammonia etc).

The short of it is, burns like that on the eye, if thats what happened,can take months to heal. Sometimes scar tissue may remain. Really clean water is alls thats usually needed, but opportunistic fungi and bacteria can attack the damaged tissue and impair healing so an antibiotic would help if that happens. Keep in mind if the conditions are bad enough cause burns to external parts , then the gills also took a hit..the result is major stress.

If you started a course of antibiotics then I would finish it....keep the water clean and just be patient with the fish.. Tramas like this can really take a long time to heal.Once done with the meds...just water changes is my prescription.

best always,
Al

[musicmarn1]

Coree and Al thank you.

yes stabilizing him top priority but i think he is making progress now - he is leaning less, he does move toward me when i come to see him and he isn't eating as i would like but he is eating and he does not seem to be getting thinner.

months to heal - no problem i get it now. but he was taking a turn for the worse so something else was at play whatever that was as you suggest he is vulnerable and that could just be more stress or actual bacteria etc.

i am seeing progress so im encouraged he is not leaning almost to the floor he is upright more so whatever is working - hospital by himself, more frequent wc, antibiotics peat extract and raised temps and no bullying of fish. one of those things is taking us in the RIGHT direction with regards to his looking less distressed not more.

GREATLY APPRECIATE all and every single comment. from doing just water changes to medicating - its all up to me to know my fish but i needed every single scrap of advice here and you gave it so im very humbly grateful.

but he is looking better a little at least HURRAH !!!!!!!! and im learning more and more which is always good.


i have to say this is why i went with domestics only for 14 months then wilds, the healthy wilds are fairly easy ! they are so curious and great appetites, got stellar care at Suzie and Mark's homes making my job easier. but there is a difference for sure ! something like Mark said - that QT in bb can be tougher on them because they are so used to having the sand and driftwood at least and its just all big changes for them.

i just couldn't be patient when he took a real turn for the worse - that was getting sucked up by the hose ! but i see signs of recovery in that department and just watching to make sure his eyes do not at least get worse the rest looks to be on track :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Marnie, pulling for you and this little Tefe. Have you been adding salt to the water all this time. If yes, maybe time to stop the salt as it really bumps the TDS. I will be away for the next week. Going to see my daughter in Maryland.

[musicmarn1]

Thanks Pat i stopped salt when starting ampicillin so good call !! what i was doing the last week was a stronger salt dip then clean water no salt added - we did see relief after salt dip but on its own it wasnt enough.


UPDATE : He is looking MUCH better ! no leaning at all his color not changing (darker then briefly lighter) and brightening up noticeably !! i do have peat extract in there to help make the water nicer and have done since he went in it (though for photo/video i left it out for 10 mins) does seem to relax him but who knows if thats right or not.

i will keep the regime going

ps its the middle of the night - cant sleep my birthday present pt 1 coming today from Eric of carolina discus :D:p and its nerve wracking LOL


anyway its late - what i MAY be seeing is late night he isn't leaning/stressed ! if its the case ill know when its busy daytime again if he is back to leaning. interesting observation

[jmf3460]

marnie let us know how he is this morning!! post some new pics/videos!

[judijetson]

Marnie, I've been reading this thread and my heart just goes out to you and the little tefe....such a cutie...really glad to hear that he is doing better and I hope you see improvement every day. I be pulling for the both of you!!

[musicmarn1]

Marnie, I've been reading this thread and my heart just goes out to you and the little tefe....such a cutie...really glad to hear that he is doing better and I hope you see improvement every day. I be pulling for the both of you!!


"marnie let us know how he is this morning!! post some new pics/videos!"



aww thanks guys its so rough because he goes in and out of looking rough then better - might be as Rick said internal damage from suction and it might just be as others have said severe stress - im just leaving him alone and feeding him less so i don't have to do as much inside the tank, even put some tiny guppie fry to eat up his mess and maybe get him hunting or at least feel less alone.

so im up and down and just desperately want him to get well. i do think im seeing progress but he is obviously still quite stressed if thats what the leaning means. however very good peeps here are supporting us ! im very hopeful. he spat out his earthworms so i don't know what he is really eating and whats just waste its very light feedings but i still don't see anything gone

i need to get pictures again and post them because its hard for me to tell im so not objective ! :( late last night he looked upright and not as dark and then all day I've seen him leaning again refusing food. but as Al and others said i am being patient i promise ill give him time to recover just want to make sure i don't miss something that needs action sooner.

[dirtyplants]

While being patient try to keep an eye on behavior, how he leans, does he shiver, watch his eyes.... ....

[musicmarn1]

eyes do not seemed improved thank you Coree that was worrying me the most, no shivering just leaning always to the right. which is where the hickys are on the right side….oh well there you go ?! poor lil guy. but i do not think its in any way worse so rest rest rest rest rest no salt any more lovely water for him and more rest. almost done with antibiotics…thought eyes were improved its just not the case i just did video and very close observation.


one of the lenses is actually protruding on the right eye, you know how they have the little inner lens then the larger outer lens? the little one was protruding into the larger the larger lens was not protruding at all, it was not just the scratched/burned problem but actually protruding a bit. only the burned parts were cloudy not whole eye.



he was in good shape before shipping and that should help him recover - im not seeing him waste away or anything but again when i post pictures be blunt don't be gentle to me i want to make sure i don't miss the window for action taking if its needed.

thanks for your support hon ! :heart1:


NB: ok could he be blind? his eyes are pretty burned/awful he just ate his own poop when i added in the bloodworms he his looking on the floor for food and going past it and then got some large poop and spat it out im seeing a hungry fish who isn't getting the bloodworms? (he spat out a live wriggler though after catching it but it was a big one that could be a/. why he caught it and b/. too big to take)


again im seeing that this is a long recovery

[musicmarn1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4PeFxGYIg


i cleaned the worms ! i feel like he cant see well enough to eat well, you might not see it here but he misses food and it LOOks like he is looking for it…

but at this point this is the MOST active he is for a short time then he lays for hours on his side and he is resting which is good i just need better eyes than mine to look at his eyes

[Udeservit]

Hi Marnie, I have High hopes for you and the little Tefe... I hope your getting your sleep!! Its hard when you have a sick one, I know. Keep up with the clean water and I'll keep my fingers crossed for a full recovery.

[musicmarn1]

thankyou so much !! i so deeply appreciate these thoughts and comments :) really help ! and thanks Coree for sending links to articles, what great peeps we have on SD i am very grateful to have such a great supportive community for my fish keeping learning curve :)

[aalbina]

The full reference is as follows: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033. The relevant reference cited by UF is Bakke TA, Harris PD, Cable J. Host specificity dynamics: observations on gyrodactylid monogeneans. International Journal for Parasitology 32, 2002, 281–308. Having reviewed that article - I don't believe it would be accurate to state that it is "well documented" that the release of cortisol by discus induces reproduction of gill flukes. Making the jump from a finding to causation would be unsound from an academic perspective.

Adam


Yes Paul, Un. of Florida mentions it and a few others I will need to look for the others but should be able to fine the Florida source quicker. I have finally learned to book mark this stuff.
Here is a quote of a reference from Un. of Florida which makes reference:

[dirtyplants]

The full reference is as follows: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033. The relevant reference cited by UF is Bakke TA, Harris PD, Cable J. Host specificity dynamics: observations on gyrodactylid monogeneans. International Journal for Parasitology 32, 2002, 281–308. Having reviewed that article - I don't believe it would be accurate to state that it is "well documented" that the release of cortisol by discus induces reproduction of gill flukes. Making the jump from a finding to causation would be unsound from an academic perspective.
I am the wrong person to argue someone else's research, and I am not qualified to argue the University of Florida's info. Personally I do not do this kind of research, but it would be interesting to see how they respond to this. I can only assume that so much of the fishing industry and trade depends on their research that their statements hold some credible value. This would be more an issue for the University to address. As far as my statement of well documented, that depends on the resources references and on reading material one would read. I tend to beleive these resources unless I read research which repudiates their statements. I do appreciate your argument but I am more inclined to take the resources statements, then argue quantifications of documentation which is highly subjective.

[aalbina]

Core - I'm not arguing with the research nor questioning the credibility of the source. It's the conclusions you made from research that I believe needed to be tempered a bit.

Adam

[musicmarn1]

Just an update - after so much help and guidance from friends and fish experts, we feel the major source of stress is indeed the damage to the eyes (and as Al states the gill plates got hit too for sure cant see that like the eyes though) so he is back in the tank with the others and much happier about life , eating and now its just months of recovery to see if he can get full vision back or not

whilst in the hospital tank it was really clear his vision is impaired BUT he is not hiding and leaning AS much as before treatment in hospital tank i will keep a close eye on him but im much more clear about whats wrong - the pH burn is now totally apparent to me which it was not before.

[OC Discus]

Marnie,

Hoping for the best. Mine had cloudy eyes after a long period of ick treatment. Once I started daily water changes, the eyes cleared up pretty fast. Hope you have the same result.

[dirtyplants]

Core - I'm not arguing with the research nor questioning the credibility of the source. It's the conclusions you made from research that I believe needed to be tempered a bit.

Adam I always appreciate your temperance cautions, but want to turn this back to Marnie's fish, and probable causes. Marnie sorry for the divergence (hyjacking) of topic.

[musicmarn1]

No Problem ! I love hearing your sources for info, all info can be read discarded or read accepted or any combination thereof :) so i love the info keep it coming and it looks like great info to me !! I also love hearing your passion for study i want too, to learn as much as i can about health but i do tend to skip some of the heavier science studies since i do so much for dog behavior so i love hearing snippets it reminds me to read even more :) :o

The little Tefe - well he is doing as well as he can,:confused: he still is recovering and i don't really know how well im doing with that, he leans less than he did but still leans and he still is slightly dark sometimes and normal other times, as Al said its probably going to be a looong process but im making sure i see NO signs of other things creeping in, his hickeys and fins are a little better but his eyes are no different. quite severely damaged.

no major turn for the worse or turn for the better. After CLOSE examination of his eyes and the help from Al and Kenny and Mark and others - he looks like he is partially blind. i put him back in with the main group for security feeling and he was happier to be back im watching for bullying which seems to be very minor. what im watching for is any signs of wasting or getting skinny. i put live worms in there white and wrigglers to help him find the food by movement , more now.

i am also getting their BIG tank pushed forward for his sake LOL its several hundred dollars short of completion - driftwood , big strong pump, 3d background and most important hiring my LFS friend the fish guy who got me into discus (but who knows i wont buy anymore of the stock he gets and is finally ok with that , bless his socks for forgiving me !!) he is a whiz with sumps and stuff and im a total dork trying my best to learn. the tank came with no plumbing at all just drilled and the older sumps had holes in them but they give me an extra 80gallons volume of water so im so glad to have them, ant wait to have all the heaters and o2 etc in there. one sump wet dry and one sump moving bed filter (he is old school he doesn't believe k1 is remotely better its funny to be like "well im so new to this hobby but i have to learn for myself what works and what doesn't !")

its exciting. and i love doing the hand made things, but ill just paint the background black for now and have super uber sumpage. oh need to order K1 for Josie too. got only three more tefe coming was hoping to order more but Kennys domestics took my budget before i could stop myself they were just too scrumptious !! so maybe ill put the domestics in the big tank LOL since 7 tefe in the 240g might be a bit too few…..but i know they will love the bigger footprint and they prefer less messing with so they will enjoy the more natural feel.

saw one of Pat's old posts today and i saw she started one of her wild tanks with plants !! i know she dropped them pretty quick but it was fun to see :) i was thinking anubias or playing with some plants anyway for my viewing pleasure. but we will see. their well being comes first. and while plants might make things a little messier the biggest pain would be getting IN the tank to do the root tabs etc because the feeding is fairly easy to contain to the pool filter sand and using feeders and live worms makes it less messy right so im not sure yet ! i know it makes me feel happy to see plants and its such a darn big tank to fill up with wood that could take me a year or so.

So Coree sorry to hear the stress you went through it sucks so much !! id love to read the links i NEED to learn about medicating safely fast. so educate me ANY time hon ! i feel better i have to say now I've done my first round of antibiotics without killing the fish, i see some definite improvement he was for sure taking a turn for the worse when i posted, but that was more to do with the hickys on top of his recovering from pH than anything i just felt helpless and made a decision to act with more than what i had been doing and im glad i did.

thanks for caring ! tell me more about your fish and treatment i need to learn :)

ill post more pictures because i want and need if someone sees something to TELL me i don't want to loose wild discus and as long as someone can see something i cant please speak up i can take it like a woman and improve

[musicmarn1]

and TODAY finally, the furan 2 (other meds ordered just in case to have on hand like pp Maracyn 1 and 2) came in !! BLIMEY im glad i didnt wait for it but i can see it would have been perfect for what he had

would have loved to see if it would have helped his eyes more than the ampicilin - but dont want to put him through another course obviously. let me go get pictures now and see what you all think

[dirtyplants]

Hey Marnie so glad to here a gradual improvement with your little Tefe. I will gladly relate the saga of my little RT. As far as being partially blind, well if that is indeed the case he will not color up like the others he may remain a bit darker, their eyesight will have much to do with their darkness or lightness.

[musicmarn1]

i did not know that ! but of course makes total sense since they camouflage or brighten to surroundings right? how are your RT now??

[nc0gnet0]

As far as being partially blind, well if that is indeed the case he will not color up like the others he may remain a bit darker, their eyesight will have much to do with their darkness or lightness.

???

First off, that fish is far from blind, I have seen much much worse. Was it caused by ph burn? maybe, but I don't think so. Lets not start assuming that was indeed the case, as we do not want to dismiss the possibility of other causes just yet (ie infection, ammonia burn, etc). In your video, why is there no air coming out of your sponge filter? Is it like this often? This is what we do know, you have a wild, and he is not happy. But he is by himself, and in much harder water than he is accustomed to. Is this all of the problem, maybe not, but it could be adding to his stress making recovery difficult. I might have missed it earlier, but was there a reason you choose to purchase just one wild?

-Rick

[dirtyplants]

First off, that fish is far from blind, I have seen much much worse. Was it caused by ph burn? maybe, but I don't think so. Lets not start assuming that was indeed the case, as we do not want to dismiss the possibility of other causes just yet (ie infection, ammonia burn, etc).

Rick's point about conclusions is important, there can be so many issues at play here. I like to look at it like a puzzle to unravel, other wise I would panic. The input from the forum are the pieces and when the pieces fit with the fishes situation then you have a bit more of the puzzle to draw a conclusion. Looking at it this way helps me to detach emotionally. Of course you already know I do not like to feel helpless so putting pieces together helps me feel like I am doing something concrete. Being blind is not a conclusive of yet, a cataract could also be a possibility, it may be to early to make conclusions.

[musicmarn1]

Rick I had it off to do the video only as I said in tbe video I just turned it off, couple of mins for video.

Second he CAME in this way, fins and eyes and the larger mark at the back I wrote to Pat and Al and others he did not get ANY better but ammonia or pH burn from the bag? I dont know, would I treat them differently, all I know is he went to a higher pH than what was in the bag, too quickly. But I always thought that was safer than the other way round lol

Third he was missing the food I took very close pictures and Al and Kenny saw that his eyes were quite heavily damaged , when going for food I put in he was missing and picking up poop. His eyesight is comprimised for sure, o doubt in my mind. How much? Not blind no but he has to look carefully and I see him make mistakes.

I have 4 tefe in the same water 200 tds and 3 of them are hand feeding and happy in every way I humbly have in my power to tell, they are not hiding or leaning like he was


My husband gave him hickeys in his weakened state, thats when I posted publically, I got back from a trip and he was much worse I did not know what those marks were

I repeat this started the MOMENT he arrived his bag had almost no water in it and those marks looked like burns to enough people for me to realize thats what they were, he never dashed around the tank to get beat up, ever they were always calm fis even him.

Lastly his marks are much improved his eyes are not...so while I am open to look at other options, he is improved acter ampicillin but still far from happy, I have been told this can take a long time. He is not worse however.

I can soften the water to make him happier, but the other wilds are happy in it as far as their bold curious, calm behaviour tells me. Im scared of ro because im a newbie, so I need to learn that next. For QT I was changing enough water where I couldnt use it but now im able to

He is back in the main tank I did say I returned him, his eyes could have gotten something else I dont know but its not ammonia burn from the tank! I kept them damn clean I check my water daily and I had good biological filtration, was only in hospital for the course of antibiotics and he always came up to me every time I visited


I had two water changes a day or one large one,and now its 50% daily I was told thats too stressful a wc to continue after qt and in the big big tank when they go in it will be same as Pats regime in her 230g

Im open to doing anything else to help him, this is just what I know so far

[Susie]

Hi Marnie,

I haven't checked on your fish for a few days. Is he still hanging on? Another source of information that you might try is National Fish Pharmaceuticals. <nationalfishpharm.com> They have a free consultation line that I have found very helpful with fish problems. Free Consultation: 520.298.7814 It is sometimes hard to get hold of them. I have found that calling in the morning sometimes helps.

I hope the little guy is better and that you don't need this information.

[musicmarn1]

He is better just not completely recovered (eyes the same) thank you Suzie :)

Great contact! His fins and marks are almot completely gone, but ive been told to allow lots of time and water changes for his gills and eyes to recover from the shipping burn.

Love that number though thanks so much! Got three more tefe coming soon for QT then the larger group should make him happier after QT