Micro-bubbles

[LeeAberdeen]

Wondered what sort of level of micro-bubbles is acceptable? I've got more than a few after my latest 40 per cent water change, but not loads. You have to look to see them, so they're by no means rampant, but I'm not sure what level could pose a danger?

There are no discus in there at the moment, just a few danios to help cycle it, so I've no way of gauging the discus' reaction to the bubbles.

My problem is I've no room for an aging barrel to get the gas out, so I'm running the water straight through my HMA filter. I'm not running the tubing straight into the water but, rather, trickling it from a reasonable height to try to get some aeration in there. Maybe there's some way of further aerating it as it comes out that I'm not aware of, some sort of attachement on the end of my John Guest tubing? Would that sort it and remove the bubbles altogether? I don't have the time to stand there with my finger over the end for an hour or so until it fills up.

Thanks for your help.

[dirtyplants]

Aeration is best but have been experimenting with very tall acrylic sleeves which fit into one another to act as a maze so the water has to go up and down the tubes the top is open, and many bubbles get stuck on the walls but still too much of a hassle and not that efficient so the simplest and easiest is to aerate it over night would love to find a new solution.

[Discusdude7]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=102775

[LeeAberdeen]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=102775

Thanks for the link. Like the sound of a 'filter sock', could be a simple, cheap solution.

[dirtyplants]

Filter socks not really effective, tried many.

[LeeAberdeen]

Filter socks not really effective, tried many.

Ah, maybe not then... Any suggestions, other than aging the water? I'll try some cheesecloth or something on the end of the tubing, see how I get on - even if it removes some bubbles that's a help because, as I said, there aren't too many to begin with, just more than I'd like.

Done a bit of online research on micr-bubbles in the meantime, and the consensus seems to be that they're not really worth worrying about unless you're overrun with them. Certainly haven't read of anyone whose fish have really suffered, just the odd one who said they seemed 'a bit stressed' for a while before eventually settling down.

[treemanone2003]

I've dealt with them all winter here (municipal water) and have never noticed any stress or discomfort from the any of the fish. In my QT, they seem to be gone in 2 mins or less, my GF's 10 is much quicker than that, and my 40 in well under 5. I can't say if it's the filters doing the work or if the water doses smaller volumes in treating the water locally. I do know that they dose differently daily, depending on precipitation and that a buddy of mine who's less than 3 miles away has considerably different tap water parameters than I have.

[LeeAberdeen]

I've dealt with them all winter here (municipal water) and have never noticed any stress or discomfort from the any of the fish. In my QT, they seem to be gone in 2 mins or less, my GF's 10 is much quicker than that, and my 40 in well under 5. I can't say if it's the filters doing the work or if the water doses smaller volumes in treating the water locally. I do know that they dose differently daily, depending on precipitation and that a buddy of mine who's less than 3 miles away has considerably different tap water parameters than I have.

Yes, most people seem to be saying the same - that they don't notice anything major among their fish. It's maybe something we worry more about than them because of the perceived danger.

My bubbles are obviously different to yours, because they hang around like a fart in a lift. I usually just scrub them off, but presumably that just displaces them and doesn't deal with the original gas 'problem'?

[dirtyplants]

I have dealt with micro bubbles this year and my fish acted poorly, turning dark, hiding, shedding slime to the bubbles. After burning out multiple heaters in an aging tank this year because of the bitter cold, I decided to try direct from the tap using prime. My fish would huddle for hours after the bubbles removes their slime coats turn dark and not eat. I tried multiple socks together, slowly running water, and then created a reactor to churn and agitate the water before the tank, then added nylon stockings into the center tube while agitating. It did help I was able to prevent 75% of the micro bubbles, but not eliminate them. I am now having conversations with someone from the water department regarding suggestions that do not require a water holding tank. For the most part, aging water is the simplest. I have little pH change from aging to tap, .2.

I personally beleive that the constant loss of slime coat due to micro bubbles leaves the fish susceptible to external parasites. I would rather fine a solution then to take that chance.

[Udeservit]

I have this problem . My bubbles can last 12 hours, and days on my plants. I find a thick sport sock over the hose works great to eliminate 75% and slower filling speed with sock will reduce up to 90% of micro bubbles. I also don't leave the end of the hose in the tank but rather balance it slightly above the water so that it falls an inch or more to the tank.<<You'll have to try things to see what works for you.
I'd like to just put the tap full on to refill the tank as it can take a long time with a slow flow but the benefit of having far less bubbles is worth the extra 15/20 minutes for me.

I haven't timed how long refilling takes. Now I'm interested.

P.S. If the slime coat is affected by the micro bubbles I can only assume this could potentially lead to problems.

[LeeAberdeen]

I have dealt with micro bubbles this year and my fish acted poorly, turning dark, hiding, shedding slime to the bubbles. After burning out multiple heaters in an aging tank this year because of the bitter cold, I decided to try direct from the tap using prime. My fish would huddle for hours after the bubbles removes their slime coats turn dark and not eat. I tried multiple socks together, slowly running water, and then created a reactor to churn and agitate the water before the tank, then added nylon stockings into the center tube while agitating. It did help I was able to prevent 75% of the micro bubbles, but not eliminate them. I am now having conversations with someone from the water department regarding suggestions that do not require a water holding tank. For the most part, aging water is the simplest. I have little pH change from aging to tap, .2.

I personally beleive that the constant loss of slime coat due to micro bubbles leaves the fish susceptible to external parasites. I would rather fine a solution then to take that chance.

Sounds like your problem is a lot more extreme than mine. I wish you all the best in finding a solution. Not sure what you mean by "added nylon stockings into the center tube", but I was thinking of just cutting a piece from some tights and putting it on the end of the tubing to aerate the water as it comes out. Got to be worth a go.

[LeeAberdeen]

I have this problem . My bubbles can last 12 hours, and days on my plants. I find a thick sport sock over the hose works great to eliminate 75% and slower filling speed with sock will reduce up to 90% of micro bubbles. I also don't leave the end of the hose in the tank but rather balance it slightly above the water so that it falls an inch or more to the tank.<<You'll have to try things to see what works for you.
I'd like to just put the tap full on to refill the tank as it can take a long time with a slow flow but the benefit of having far less bubbles is worth the extra 15/20 minutes for me.

I haven't timed how long refilling takes. Now I'm interested.

P.S. If the slime coat is affected by the micro bubbles I can only assume this could potentially lead to problems.

Hmm, sports sock? Again, that's got to be worth a go. If that removes 75 per cent of my bubbles, they'll definitely be within a non-problematic range. I already do the same as you elsewhere - hose not directly in tank and fill slowly (about a litre a minute, I'd guess).

[Discusdude7]

I think it says on the stendker website that you can attach a shower head to whatever you use to fill the tank with to degas the water.
http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

[LeeAberdeen]

I think it says on the stendker website that you can attach a shower head to whatever you use to fill the tank with to degas the water.
http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

They do, but you can't add a shower head to tubing that comes out of a HMA filter - it's John Guest tubing and about a 1/4 of an inch thick.

[LeeAberdeen]

I think it says on the stendker website that you can attach a shower head to whatever you use to fill the tank with to degas the water.
http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

Blimey, the opening par of that site says: "For an aquarium containing 180 litres (with c. 12 discus fish and companion fish) changing 10-20 % of the water in the aquarium once a week or changing 30 % every two weeks is normally sufficient."

Wouldn't get many on here agreeing with that water change regimen... Or that stocking level - 12 discus in 180 litres of water? Plus 'companion fish'? That's one discus per 15 litres rather than per 15 gallons?

[discus rookie]

I use a very strong spray jet to fill my tank up, right from the tap, and I have very little or no air bubbles.
Kind of like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzWbBC9e-mU

[Udeservit]

Holy Geeze!! Ive never seen anything like that!!

[LeeAberdeen]

I use a very strong spray jet to fill my tank up, right from the tap, and I have very little or no air bubbles.
Kind of like this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzWbBC9e-mU

Blimey, I've seen throngs of baying football hooligans sprayed with less force than that by water cannon...

[LeeAberdeen]

I think it says on the stendker website that you can attach a shower head to whatever you use to fill the tank with to degas the water.
http://diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

I take my earlier dismissal back - just managed to find the right fitting online. Now the only problem is trying to get a strong enough flow through the thin tubing so that there's more than just a trickle out the showerhead.

[dirtyplants]

Never tried this sounds promising thanks Discusdude7 you can be sure I will give it a try. Let you know how I fair with this.

[discus rookie]

Blimey, I've seen throngs of baying football hooligans sprayed with less force than that by water cannon...
This made me laugh so hard. LOL

[dirtyplants]

OK seems SD calls this phenomena micro bubbles, but in the world of fisheries, it is called Gas Supersaturation or Gas Bubble Disease. These gases can be eliminated by something called a packed column de-gasser, there are two types vacuum and passive. The passive seems easy enough to scale down to a aquarium size.
Here is a link to show a simple passive unit that is sold.
http://pentairaes.com/packed-column-segment.html

[Jstaabs]

So by the looks of that it's three buckets with holes drilled in it to help