Should I medicate? [Archive]

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 06:18 PM

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
I received 5 discus on May 13th. Initially I noticed that one was breathing very fast.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
A few were dark when they came in. Most started gaining color back after a few days which is typical. One in particular never did. I noticed losing of slime and attributed the cause to micro-bubbles after water change. That problem has been corrected but the problem persists. 3 out of the 5 discus have not ate a bite since I received them. The one I am concerned about shows clamped fins, white feces (along with the other 2 that haven't ate, attribute that to the not eating), hiding, white zit-like pimple by the mouth of the one fish. Additionally, the color seems dark around the edges, but in the center it is very pale. I have seen discus die in the past and it is losing color very similar to that.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
No medication. I wanted to see if WC's would solve the issue.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
50g tank. all 5 are around the 5.5" mark.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
90-100% WC every 2 days. Only one eats very well, so there are a lot of left-overs which get siphoned after a few minutes.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Tank was set up for the discus specifically and it was running only a few days prior to their arrival. The supplier sent a seeded sponge filter which was with this group and I have been running it since then and all my parameters show a good bacterial colony. Bare bottom.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No pH swing. I do not age my water. Had a problem with Micro-bubbles but it has been almost a week without that problem and the discus still does not show signs of recovery.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

- temp: 84F
- ph: 7.4
- ammonia reading: 0
- nitrite reading: 0
- nitrate reading: No greater than 20ppm after 2 days no WC

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.
All tap water. I have kept discus in this water straight from tap before with no problems.

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No, tank was set up and sterilized for this group

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
I will post a video tomorrow

To be honest, I have been waiting for this one discus to die. I had thought about putting it in a Hospital tank but still undecided. The last thing I want is for it to pass while I am at work. I have instructed my wife to dispose of it if that does happen, but she does not seem very happy about that task. Another problem I am currently having is that I do not have an external heater for a hospital tank.

discuspaul

05-28-2014, 06:33 PM

Rick,
Are you fully satisfied you got those discus from a fully reliable source of quality fish ?
It seems like they may not have been in good health when you got them, or they had a problematic transit on their way to you which unduly stressed them. It appears you should perhaps take this up with the source of those fish first, then decide on medicating.

Elliots

05-28-2014, 06:57 PM

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 07:00 PM

I want to help but I can't say anything in this section.....
Understood

Rick,
Are you fully satisfied you got those discus from a fully reliable source of quality fish ?
It seems like they may not have been in good health when you got them, or they had a problematic transit on their way to you which unduly stressed them. It appears you should perhaps take this up with the source of those fish first, then decide on medicating.

Thanks Paul. I have spoken with the supplier, and it is one of our Sponsors which I has great positive feedback from many here. I'd rather not put it out in the open as I'd like the focus to be on the fish. When I got them I did notice that many were passing white feces, again, I attributed that to them being shipped and fasting and passing their internal lining. I also informed the supplier that I noticed a few of them were breathing from one gill only. This issue has almost gone away completely and isn't my main concern at the moment. I will stress though, the discus seemed very stressed from the very beginning, showing clamp fins which I took for the normal sign of shipping. The main one in question took the longest with the clamped fins and it has always breathed at a very accelerated rate, which worried me more than anything.

That specific discus looks as it is always losing its slime coat but at a very slow rate, it looks as if it has a very thin white layer around its face which I pegged to being stressed.

I really do not want to lose this fish, and I always leave medicating as a last resort, but I think if I do leave it any longer it will pass. The supplier suggested carbon, but as of today, I have not had a chance to go get some since I have been taking care of my son with no opportunity to go. All my parameters are spot on though, and the test kit was bought specifically for these fish, and it has an expiration date a few years down the line.

I am kind of scratching my head here now.

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 07:05 PM

Probably will not help but why not give the fish more chance to east, leave the food in for 10 minutes before you remove it. I also suspect the fish were not 100% when you bought them or they were in transit too long.

Sry, when I said a few minutes, I exaggerated the brevity. I leave it in close to 20 minutes or so. The one fully healthy discus goes to town eating everything. It is also a bully, but I have seen bullying to establish a pecking order before and this seems no different.

These are the things I have tried:

-I have tried turning off the filters for 20 minutes or so to see if the current was too strong. It turned out that it wasn't, they kept staying huddled up in their corner.
-I fixed the micro-bubbles problem which I thought might be stressing them out. That also didn't solve the problem.
-I have fed a varitety of feed to encourage eating, including, Al's FDBW, Forrests' D4 pellets, Bills flakes, Beefheart(they stay away from this like the plague). No go for the rest, but again, that discus goes to town, except with the BH.
-I have tried dimming the lights which aren't too bright to start with. I went so far as to keep them off a couple of days. No change
-Lastly, a fellow member suggested I lower the percentage of WC's. That also did not seem to help.
Running out of options here....

Second Hand Pat

05-28-2014, 09:00 PM

Rick, bump Paul a PM and ask him to chime in here. Also a pic might help. Did you have a mini-cycle when you first received the fish?

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 09:07 PM

Rick, bump Paul a PM and ask him to chime in here. Also a pic might help. Did you have a mini-cycle when you first received the fish?

Yes, I did notice a mini-cycle at first. I did daily water changes and there were only small traces of ammonia. Nothing major. However, seeing as the discus were stressed already, maybe that could have started this?

Again, I will say, this one particular discus has always had fast breathing which worried me from the start. It seems like that guys respitory system has been on overdrive for some time, not sure how much longer it can keep it up.

nc0gnet0

05-28-2014, 09:08 PM

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 09:27 PM

it could all still be stress related. A harmless temporary option would be to add a few things to the tank to give them some hiding places so they feel more secure. Fake plants, silly fish store volcanoes, don't matter what. If they rebound then slowly begin to remove the items. if this doesn't work, then it may be time to start with a de-worming. I would try the structure solution first.

-Rick

It is actually something I considered Rick. I was thinking that maybe the bare bottom was freaking them out, but they never seem to look down close to the floor, which has been my experience in the past with fish freaking out in BB's. I was thinking of adding a super thin layer of Pool Filter Sand, but didn't want to add something that might potentially do more harm than good.

I have a piece of driftwood I can definitely throw in there and see if it helps some.

nc0gnet0

05-28-2014, 09:34 PM

Yeah I didnt mean add a substrate, just some items to give a sense of security.

Second Hand Pat

05-28-2014, 09:40 PM

Rick, do you have some clay pots or cones. A piece of floating wood maybe not be the best choice. Those fish most likely have never seen a piece of driftwood.

alcastro

05-28-2014, 09:48 PM

Rick when you get a chance you sould get some carbon, just for a day or two, maybe something has change in your water supply.

AL

Keith Perkins

05-28-2014, 10:30 PM

nc0gnet0 Rick - might MB help the rapid breathing? Just thinking back to when I had that batch of fry who's air pump died and you had me use MB. What was with the suppliers carbon suggestion? I'm missing something.

OP Ric - really sorry you're having such a hassle with these fish, major bummer.

nc0gnet0

05-28-2014, 10:38 PM

Keith Perkins

05-28-2014, 10:45 PM

Depends on the reason the fish are breathing hard actually. If stress related don't think it will make a difference.

Thanks

rickztahone

05-28-2014, 11:14 PM

Yeah I didnt mean add a substrate, just some items to give a sense of security.
Got it. As of right now I don't believe I have anything other than that piece of driftwood. I will boil it first thing in the morning. It is waterlogged already.

Rick, do you have some clay pots or cones. A piece of floating wood maybe not be the best choice. Those fish most likely have never seen a piece of driftwood.
Unfortunately no, I do not have anything else on hand.

Rick when you get a chance you sould get some carbon, just for a day or two, maybe something has change in your water supply.

AL
That is what the supplier mentioned, as of right now I haven't had a chance to get some. I may be able to go tomorrow though if my wife comes home for work soon enough to take over with my son.

nc0gnet0 Rick - might MB help the rapid breathing? Just thinking back to when I had that batch of fry who's air pump died and you had me use MB. What was with the suppliers carbon suggestion? I'm missing something.

OP Ric - really sorry you're having such a hassle with these fish, major bummer.
Bummer indeed. It is not how I wanted to be re-introduced to the hobby. I did wait quite a while to post this thread. I felt I had exhausted all my past knowledge of what may be causing this stress. From now on, I kind of feel like a new member in that I'm running out of options.

Depends on the reason the fish are breathing hard actually. If stress related don't think it will make a difference.
I believe you. From my past experience I know that discus that are healthy can indeed pass white feces, especially after a ship since they are placed on a fast. Seeing as some have yet to eat, they are still passing this white feces. However, will stress alone cause the breathing from one gill only? I do not recall that aspect.

dkeef

05-29-2014, 12:25 AM

Hope all goes well rick. Its tough when u got problems from start.

Chicago Discus

05-29-2014, 01:17 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCeBgHlho4w

Here are the exact fish that Rick purchased before shipping to him........Josie

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 01:31 AM

Thanks Dave. I hope you take care of your situation over there :-/.

When I got home tonight I turned on the lights, and I fed to see if any would try to eat. Only one did. However, I decided to take the pre-filter off of the left side which is where they usually all hide (90% of the time).

To my surprise, many of them started to freely move around the tank more. Mind you, they didn't eat, but they showed more confidence in moving about the tank.

The main discus I am worried about though was in his own little world. I am uploading a video to show how it looks.

I have noticed the white lips, the pale center mass and dark edges, also, the head looks to be covered in a thin layer of slime. Oddly enough, I thought it looked kind of bloated, even though it hasn't ate in over 2 weeks. Possible bloat?

If you notice anything please chime in:

http://youtu.be/5KSKxiUrWqQ

http://youtu.be/5KSKxiUrWqQ

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 01:37 AM

Thanks Josie for chiming in. I didn't want to make this about the supplier, rather, to help me fix this health problem that I am stumped by. I knew full well how they looked before they got to me since I saw that video.

However, they haven't been that comfortable under my care, and I want to pin-point why.

Notice, the discus that starts off in the top right in Josie's video is the one in question here that is now very dark.

Chicago Discus

05-29-2014, 01:45 AM

After watching the videos twice your correct its one of the girls thats having an issue not the boy.......Josie

Chicago Discus

05-29-2014, 01:45 AM

She is not Happy about something going on in that tank.

timmy82

05-29-2014, 03:19 AM

It seems still of reasonable condition and wouldn't think it is a supplier issue at all. From Josie video to yours the tank size is much different and your walls are all clear. I would cover the walls and even reduce the tank size with a divider. It seems more stress related from the new enviroment. Also some epson salt will help out and reduce possibilities of bloat ect. It seems like it isn't happy in the new tank would be like you walking out on a glass platform at 10 stories high with no hand rails or restraint.

Argentum

05-29-2014, 03:47 AM

Personally, at this point I would treat.

Even good quality humans get sick, specially when they change environments. I had experience with Forrest with a group order we made and out of 23, only one did not eat until 2 weeks have passed and a round of Metro solved the issue and it has one of the best appetites now.

General cure (Metro + Prazi) is what I would use. Again its only me. However as everyone suggested I would want to make sure it's not the water first (which I doubt it is).

Does your water have any smell or taste in it? is it drinking water? if not I doubt it's the water, because if it had any organics it would taste and smell bad and if it had heavy metals it will taste metallic. And there are strict regulations on the levels of these specially in the US.

The best way I found out to use Metro is to buy a pack of the 500mg tablets from a pharmacy grind them to powder after I know the weight of one tablet. I store the powder and weigh the amount that would give me 250mg / 10 gallons put them in a water bottle with warm water (not more than 40 C) and shake vigorously and dose. I change 50% of the water and re-dose every 2 days.

After 5 doses the usually start to eat sometimes a day or two after the treatment is complete.

pcsb23

05-29-2014, 05:06 AM

Ric, how do you prepare your water? Also is the floor of the tank painted?

PP_GBR

05-29-2014, 08:33 AM

I would give the fish a gill wash with PP and Furan 2. If it is stress related, the fish does not hang on top of the water but rather in the corner of the tank.

Chicago Discus

05-29-2014, 11:31 AM

Ric, how do you prepare your water? Also is the floor of the tank painted?

Rick I agree where is Paul is going with this. Something might be up with that water
How did you fix the micro bubble issue?
The right gill looks damaged which leads me to believe that something is up with the water. We really need to know how you are preparing your water and how much of a water change you are doing. What chemicals did you use in and around the aquarium?

Allwin

05-29-2014, 12:42 PM

I suspect the dissolved gases(micro bubbles). I had similar situation with some fishes not everyone. So i minimized the WC% from 90% to 20-25%. And they did very well instead. My few cents. Love the shapes of the fishes, Good luck!!!

And also, give them more hides/turn off the light/feeding twice a day. Reduce the WC, lets say 25% twice a week for now, just imo.

Disgirl

05-29-2014, 01:08 PM

Hi Ric, have been following this thread and I am trying hard to think of what the issue could be. I went back and looked over your tank build thread. On post 8 there I notice you have a pic of silicone you used for the tank top re glue. I don't think that is aquarium safe silicone. Probably has mildew resistant in it which would poison fish. I have looked at the various silicones in Lowes and most say not for use in fish tanks. Can you go read what yours says? Just trying to help here...
Barb

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 02:12 PM

She is not Happy about something going on in that tank.
You are telling me...

It seems still of reasonable condition and wouldn't think it is a supplier issue at all. From Josie video to yours the tank size is much different and your walls are all clear. I would cover the walls and even reduce the tank size with a divider. It seems more stress related from the new enviroment. Also some epson salt will help out and reduce possibilities of bloat ect. It seems like it isn't happy in the new tank would be like you walking out on a glass platform at 10 stories high with no hand rails or restraint.
While I see what you are metaphorically getting at, I have seen discus stressed due to BB and this is far worse than ever. The others do not show advance forms as stress as this one, or the rapid breathing that it did on day one which I believe all of this stems from.

Personally, at this point I would treat.

Even good quality humans get sick, specially when they change environments. I had experience with Forrest with a group order we made and out of 23, only one did not eat until 2 weeks have passed and a round of Metro solved the issue and it has one of the best appetites now.

General cure (Metro + Prazi) is what I would use. Again its only me. However as everyone suggested I would want to make sure it's not the water first (which I doubt it is).

Does your water have any smell or taste in it? is it drinking water? if not I doubt it's the water, because if it had any organics it would taste and smell bad and if it had heavy metals it will taste metallic. And there are strict regulations on the levels of these specially in the US.

The best way I found out to use Metro is to buy a pack of the 500mg tablets from a pharmacy grind them to powder after I know the weight of one tablet. I store the powder and weigh the amount that would give me 250mg / 10 gallons put them in a water bottle with warm water (not more than 40 C) and shake vigorously and dose. I change 50% of the water and re-dose every 2 days.

After 5 doses the usually start to eat sometimes a day or two after the treatment is complete.
I will keep this in mind in case I want to treat with Metro. Thank you.

Ric, how do you prepare your water? Also is the floor of the tank painted?
The water is straight from tap. I never had an issue with my water when I had discus before. The tank floor is not technically painted, but it does have some form of bottom insulation from manufacturer that you can not remove. See here:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_38_zps7b875420.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_38_zps7b875420.jpg.html)

I would give the fish a gill wash with PP and Furan 2. If it is stress related, the fish does not hang on top of the water but rather in the corner of the tank.
I will keep this in mind. I honestly didn't want to use strong meds, especially in the main tank as I do not want to recycle.

Rick I agree where is Paul is going with this. Something might be up with that water
How did you fix the micro bubble issue?
The right gill looks damaged which leads me to believe that something is up with the water. We really need to know how you are preparing your water and how much of a water change you are doing. What chemicals did you use in and around the aquarium?
Well, I have all that info on the OP, but here goes again, the water is straight from tap. It is treated with SAFE. I do 90-100% WC's every 2 days. The parameters are all good. The micro-bubbles were completely taken care of by using a micron sock and a pre-filter. I reduced the flow of the water when doing the fill up as well.

I suspect the dissolved gases(micro bubbles). I had similar situation with some fishes not everyone. So i minimized the WC% from 90% to 20-25%. And they did very well instead. My few cents. Love the shapes of the fishes, Good luck!!!

And also, give them more hides/turn off the light/feeding twice a day. Reduce the WC, lets say 25% twice a week for now, just imo.
I can definitely try this. In all honesty, it was never my custom to go more than 1 day without a WC, and it would always be a really large one at that. I will reduce the water change percentage again and see if it helps.

Hi Ric, have been following this thread and I am trying hard to think of what the issue could be. I went back and looked over your tank build thread. On post 8 there I notice you have a pic of silicone you used for the tank top re glue. I don't think that is aquarium safe silicone. Probably has mildew resistant in it which would poison fish. I have looked at the various silicones in Lowes and most say not for use in fish tanks. Can you go read what yours says? Just trying to help here...
Barb
Thanks Barb. It is the GE Silicone I. I have used this silicone in the past with no problems, and I know many others have as well. Thank you for trying to pin-point what this may be.

To all, as of right now, I went ahead and did a salt dip, which is the only thing I have on hand currently. The discus rolled over after 10 minutes and I moved him to a QT 5g bucket. I will keep an eye on it and see how it does. I will wait a couple of days to put him back in the tank so it isn't so exposed after the dip.

In all honesty, I have pretty much given up on this fish. If it keeps deteriorating I will have to euthanize it and put it out of its misery.

Discusdude7

05-29-2014, 02:32 PM

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54908

Taken from first post of thread:

Hi all,
For years I and many others have used GE silicone as an aquarium Sealant.. I went to buy some the other day and noticed that Both Type 1 and 2 both are now made with some kind of mold inhibitor... BIOSEAL..

http://www.geadvancedmaterials.com/geam/gesa/Residential/en/Products/PromotionsDetail/bioseal.html

I would not advise using the GE Silicone anylonger if it has this additive.

hth,
al

This was an older thread so I don't know if they make it without a mold inhibitor now. Whatever is wrong I hope you get the problem sorted out soon.

PP_GBR

05-29-2014, 02:55 PM

You must have a 10 gal tank, a heater and and air pump, right? I would not give up on the fish yet but rather treat it if I were you.

MKD

05-29-2014, 04:42 PM

Rick, i have some meds or you need any helps let me know. good luck

pp
Furan 2
Metro

alcastro

05-29-2014, 05:34 PM

Rick I am near by in near LAX just ask I will bring your carbon, metro, PP, furan2, prazi this evening when I get off work

AL

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Argentum

05-29-2014, 06:14 PM

I would not give up on the fish, it's not in a very bad state compared to what I have seen when I had a columnaris outbreak. One red turk that was most affected made it along with another two and he is now one of my best looking fish if not the best and I mixed him with Forrest fish after QT of course with no issues.

Relax ... it will be sorted, however I understand your frustration.

I don't like the sensitivity our forum members have when advising about a fish that is from one of the sponsors.
Okay they are dealing with good quality fish and have a good customer service but that doesn't mean their discus are immune to disease.

When I had issues with one of the rafflesia not eating for 2 weeks forum members stressed on not treating because they came from a good source while Forrest & Kenny both suggested treatment.

pcsb23

05-29-2014, 06:32 PM

...
To all, as of right now, I went ahead and did a salt dip, which is the only thing I have on hand currently. The discus rolled over after 10 minutes and I moved him to a QT 5g bucket. I will keep an eye on it and see how it does. I will wait a couple of days to put him back in the tank so it isn't so exposed after the dip.

In all honesty, I have pretty much given up on this fish. If it keeps deteriorating I will have to euthanize it and put it out of its misery.
We are a long way off culling just yet, have some patience. This is a large fish and can go for weeks without food and whilst it is showing some stress it is not really suffering yet.

It won't do well in a 5 gal bucket, put it back in the tank, the water in the bucket will foul very quickly.

Putting some activated carbon into a filter would at least eliminate any contaminants so may be worth doing. I'd also cut back on the amount of water you are changing for now 50% will be adequate I would think.

As for the silicone, maybe worth emailing the manufacturer, just in case.

Putting some driftwood or other objects in the tank may help, and I'd also consider a thin layer of sand as I've found non painted tank floors can spook the fish even when they have some form of board attached to them - I have a tank that has polystyrene glued to the floor and when bare all the fish spook, add some sand and they stop and I've seen the same in other peoples tanks too - don't ask me to explain why as I can't :o

chaoslite

05-29-2014, 06:51 PM

Rick,

Just a thought if you haven't already. Retest your water out of your tap and watch it for that full minute and see if you see any changes and test it again after throwing in an air stone for 20 minutes. The DWP over on my side of the valley messed with my water about 2 years ago. I was able to use straight tap back then and ended up having to switch over to aging my water for 8 hours. The TDS also went from 264 to 334.

Mishka

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 08:12 PM

Before I start replying to every single quote, I wanted to take the time to thank all of you for brainstorming and helping me through this. It had been a while since keeping discus as I mentioned, and in all honesty I forgot how much of a drag it can be when they are sick or go off eating. So, again, Thank you all.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?t=54908

Taken from first post of thread:

This was an older thread so I don't know if they make it without a mold inhibitor now. Whatever is wrong I hope you get the problem sorted out soon.
Thank you. I have used this specific one in the past with no problems and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary with the one I used this time (I checked earlier today too). However, I never suspected the silicone because I figured the other discus would be acting in the exact same fashion. But then again, whatever it is that is targetting this particular discus has a firmer hold than on the others. Maybe its defenses were weaker from shipping? Either way, thanks.

You must have a 10 gal tank, a heater and and air pump, right? I would not give up on the fish yet but rather treat it if I were you.
The salt dip was done this morning in a 5g bucket. I didn't have a 10g tank, actually, I am lying, I do, but I would have to disinfect it because it has a 3D background and I am not sure how the background would react to bleach, so I didn't want to take the chance. As of right now, it is still in the 5g bucket, and when I get home from work, I will put it back in the main tank.

Rick, i have some meds or you need any helps let me know. good luck

pp
Furan 2
Metro

Thanks so much Tony!

Rick I am near by in near LAX just ask I will bring your carbon, metro, PP, furan2, prazi this evening when I get off work

AL

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you so much AL! You are so nice to offer. I may take you up on that actually, as I may need the meds sooner, rather than later. I will pay you whatever they cost you plus the shipping. I actually work in Santa Monica, so it isn't that far from your location. Please pm me your number if you get a chance :-)

I would not give up on the fish, it's not in a very bad state compared to what I have seen when I had a columnaris outbreak. One red turk that was most affected made it along with another two and he is now one of my best looking fish if not the best and I mixed him with Forrest fish after QT of course with no issues.

Relax ... it will be sorted, however I understand your frustration.

I don't like the sensitivity our forum members have when advising about a fish that is from one of the sponsors.
Okay they are dealing with good quality fish and have a good customer service but that doesn't mean their discus are immune to disease.

When I had issues with one of the rafflesia not eating for 2 weeks forum members stressed on not treating because they came from a good source while Forrest & Kenny both suggested treatment.
Great point, and I agree with you. The euthanize remark may have been too extreme in my frustrated state. I have not been known to give up on fish unless they are on the brink of death and I have put them out of their misery with oil. I will try everything in my power to make this one pull through, because in actual fact, it is the only one with a developing halo! (I got to look at a positive here somewhere)

We are a long way off culling just yet, have some patience. This is a large fish and can go for weeks without food and whilst it is showing some stress it is not really suffering yet.

It won't do well in a 5 gal bucket, put it back in the tank, the water in the bucket will foul very quickly.

Putting some activated carbon into a filter would at least eliminate any contaminants so may be worth doing. I'd also cut back on the amount of water you are changing for now 50% will be adequate I would think.

As for the silicone, maybe worth emailing the manufacturer, just in case.

Putting some driftwood or other objects in the tank may help, and I'd also consider a thin layer of sand as I've found non painted tank floors can spook the fish even when they have some form of board attached to them - I have a tank that has polystyrene glued to the floor and when bare all the fish spook, add some sand and they stop and I've seen the same in other peoples tanks too - don't ask me to explain why as I can't :o

Got it Paul. I will put it back in the main tank when I get home. I will not euthanize unless I have to. It has been off food for well over 2 weeks which is why I am worried. I know other discus have gone more than 3 weeks, but the condition of this discus is worrying. For example, there are 2 others in this tank that ALSO haven't ate. I am not worried about them as much because they show no obvious signs of stress, other than the not eating. Their color is fine, and they only show that they are bottom rung in the pecking order. I will put some carbon in asap. I will also reduce the water change percentage again to see if that helps. So, 50% daily then?
I don't believe the silicone to be the issue here, but I will try contacting the manufacturer tomorrow.
I will try to get some PFS tomorrow at Lowes to see if that helps at all.
Thanks for all your advice.

Rick,

Just a thought if you haven't already. Retest your water out of your tap and watch it for that full minute and see if you see any changes and test it again after throwing in an air stone for 20 minutes. The DWP over on my side of the valley messed with my water about 2 years ago. I was able to use straight tap back then and ended up having to switch over to aging my water for 8 hours. The TDS also went from 264 to 334.

Mishka

Hey Mishka, I will do as you say tomorrow. So, with water conditions, we have to also monitor the TDS? I thought we only looked for pH? Either way, I can definitely check that tomorrow. I have a tds pen as well. Glad I didn't sell it (rather, glad it didn't sell because I did have it for sale, lol).

Thanks all!

Len

05-29-2014, 08:34 PM

Kal-El

05-29-2014, 08:34 PM

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having. In my experience I've had a lot of success using heat to treat sick fish who don't eat. If all that you have try failed try using heat treatment it works 90% of the time for me.

I use a heat controller to slowly increase the temp to 94 degree F in a two to three days. Once stable at 94 I keep this temp up to 10 days before slowly decreasing the temp back to normal. During this time light feeding with daily 50% WC age tap water that's temp control set to 94 degree.

More info can be found here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?28906-Using-Heat-as-a-Treatment).

Heat plus + Metro works awesome together to rid of internal parasites (Hexamita).

yim11

05-29-2014, 08:42 PM

If we step back and look at this -

We see the fish before they were shipped, look great, healthy. Very nice fish.
We know you don't have any other fish at all (right?) so no way you could have cross contaminated.
We know the fish are in a bad condition now.

There is simply no way you could have gotten these fish sick, and they don't look sick at all before you got them. Based on that it really confuses me why anyone would recommend any meds at this point.

Pretty much the only logical conclusion is that something is wrong with your water or hardware, so if were me - and it's not - that is where I would focus my efforts.

Now, if I'm incorrect on you having any other fish currently then all the above can be ignored LOL.

You are getting a lot of advice from a lot of folks, but only one that is being flown to the US for a show ;)

Good Luck

OC Discus

05-29-2014, 09:00 PM

A couple more thoughts:

1) How about comparing the parameters of Josie's water with yours to see if there was a drastic change
2) You can quickly tape some white poster board to the sides and back to get closer to the original tank
3) If carbon has been recommended so many times, and with the cost of these fish, I can't imagine why you haven't already got it, even if you have to take the kids with you.
4) Using ambient room light only until the condition improves could reduce the stress
5) Don't give up. My six have weathered some severe storms together and all survived. Just try to move very slowly around the tank and avoid any loud noises or sudden movements that can startle them.
6) If you have small children, they could be stressing the fish. Try to keep them back several feet from the tank.

OC Discus

05-29-2014, 09:05 PM

Also, a dog or cat could be a possible source of stress.

BTW, if the silicone was an issue, the carbon might help with that. Carbon has a short life span. I'm not sure how long, but I would use a large amount and change it weekly until the situation is resolved. Some of the mods might suggest the maximum amount to use and how often to replace it.

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 09:24 PM

With regards to the silcone, one of them has a mold/mildew inhibitor in them, and one doesn't. They both say not for aquariums on the lable, but I did contact the manufacturer about two years ago and was told it's a legality. The same product (the one with no mold inhibitor) is also put in different packaging and sold for use in aquariums -- go figure.
So which was the one in question for you? The I or the II?

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having. In my experience I've had a lot of success using heat to treat sick fish who don't eat. If all that you have try failed try using heat treatment it works 90% of the time for me.

I use a heat controller to slowly increase the temp to 94 degree F in a two to three days. Once stable at 94 I keep this temp up to 10 days before slowly decreasing the temp back to normal. During this time light feeding with daily 50% WC age tap water that's temp control set to 94 degree.

More info can be found here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?28906-Using-Heat-as-a-Treatment).

Heat plus + Metro works awesome together to rid of internal parasites (Hexamita).
I figured that 84 on its own would work to stimulate appetite, but I guess I can bump up the temp a little, it couldn't hurt.

If we step back and look at this -

We see the fish before they were shipped, look great, healthy. Very nice fish.
We know you don't have any other fish at all (right?) so no way you could have cross contaminated.
We know the fish are in a bad condition now.

There is simply no way you could have gotten these fish sick, and they don't look sick at all before you got them. Based on that it really confuses me why anyone would recommend any meds at this point.

Pretty much the only logical conclusion is that something is wrong with your water or hardware, so if were me - and it's not - that is where I would focus my efforts.

Now, if I'm incorrect on you having any other fish currently then all the above can be ignored LOL.

You are getting a lot of advice from a lot of folks, but only one that is being flown to the US for a show ;)

Good Luck
No other fish what-so-ever. This particular tank was fully disinfected with bleach per our forum recommendations.
Too many chefs in the kitchen you say? It is fine, I can't possibly do every single thing that everyone is recommending, but the sensible things that wouldn't cause any harm (non-med related) can easily be implemented.

A couple more thoughts:

1) How about comparing the parameters of Josie's water with yours to see if there was a drastic change
2) You can quickly tape some white poster board to the sides and back to get closer to the original tank
3) If carbon has been recommended so many times, and with the cost of these fish, I can't imagine why you haven't already got it, even if you have to take the kids with you.
4) Using ambient room light only until the condition improves could reduce the stress
5) Don't give up. My six have weathered some severe storms together and all survived. Just try to move very slowly around the tank and avoid any loud noises or sudden movements that can startle them.
6) If you have small children, they could be stressing the fish. Try to keep them back several feet from the tank.

Also, a dog or cat could be a possible source of stress.

BTW, if the silicone was an issue, the carbon might help with that. Carbon has a short life span. I'm not sure how long, but I would use a large amount and change it weekly until the situation is resolved. Some of the mods might suggest the maximum amount to use and how often to replace it.

Josie's water is very similar to mine, I checked. I can try covering up the sides as well. However, this tank will not remain covered, and in the past, I have always tried getting the discus used to the environment I created since they will be living in it. But, it wouldn't hurt in the short term. Carbon is going in tomorrow morning. The light fixture is currently off and will stay off.
I have a 13month old son that can't walk, and a 7yr old that does, but she knows better than to scare the discus. She grew up in a house with discus since she was a baby and knows how to behave around them.

Len

05-29-2014, 09:37 PM

So which was the one in question for you? The I or the II?

...

Sorry, I had to go digging for the tube. It's the type I that is fine. Like this:

http://imageshack.com/scaled/medium/843/owc8o.jpg (http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/843/owc8o.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.com)

nc0gnet0

05-29-2014, 09:43 PM

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 10:52 PM

Sorry, I had to go digging for the tube. It's the type I that is fine. Like this:

http://imageshack.com/scaled/medium/843/owc8o.jpg (http://imageshack.com/photo/my-images/843/owc8o.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.com)

Thanks Len, that is the exact same one I used and have used in the past.

rickztahone

05-29-2014, 11:05 PM

While it's possible it could be a contaminate in the water(from the silicone) I would expect to see all the fish effected. It is possible that this particular fish is more sensitive, but if it where a chemical I would still expect some signs in all the fish. If this is the suspected diagnosis, more water changes are in order, not less.

Curious to see how the fish responds to a salt dip, I might be inclined to try some acriflavin at this point, after seeing the video.

-Rick

The only other thing I notice with the other discus is the lack of apetite, and I am still peggin that to the pecking order and the new environment. I will normally agree with you Rick, but as it stands, I haven't been slacking too much with the water changes as is, and I'm not sure how more would help. I am not feeding a lot because they show no signs of wanting to eat, so I do don't intentially foul up the water. I can try both ways really, but for now, I think I will do lower WC percentages and see if that helps. I will keep checking parameters every day.

discofan

05-29-2014, 11:10 PM

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21234&start=150
Check this out!!!!!

rickztahone

05-30-2014, 02:51 AM

I got home and took the discus out of the 5g bucket. It has lost its equilibrium pretty bad. It is still breathing very fast as before.

I stopped by Al's place and he was nice enough to give me carbon, metro, prazi, and PP, as well as a borrowed 10g. Super great guy, I'm indebted :-)

I just put the carbon in there and hopefully it will make a difference. I will report back tomorrow morning.

pcsb23

05-30-2014, 05:12 AM

While it's possible it could be a contaminate in the water(from the silicone) I would expect to see all the fish effected. It is possible that this particular fish is more sensitive, but if it where a chemical I would still expect some signs in all the fish. If this is the suspected diagnosis, more water changes are in order, not less.

Curious to see how the fish responds to a salt dip, I might be inclined to try some acriflavin at this point, after seeing the video.

-Rick

I hear what you are saying and if the water supply was totally trusted I'd agree. It is possible that the water supply is contaminated somehow, and whilst Ric needs to do water changes we need to try and mitigate that risk. Activated carbon will help with this, fortunately if the silicone is the source then it will help with that too. He will still be changing the same amount of water @ 50% daily as he would by changing 90%+ every two days.

Hopefully the fish has survived it's time in the bucket ...

MKD

05-30-2014, 07:35 AM

nc0gnet0

05-30-2014, 09:27 AM

alcastro

05-30-2014, 09:54 AM

Morning Rick Hope things are better for you, just curious do you adjust water temp before it goes into the tank.

AL

rickztahone

05-30-2014, 10:22 AM

I hear what you are saying and if the water supply was totally trusted I'd agree. It is possible that the water supply is contaminated somehow, and whilst Ric needs to do water changes we need to try and mitigate that risk. Activated carbon will help with this, fortunately if the silicone is the source then it will help with that too. He will still be changing the same amount of water @ 50% daily as he would by changing 90%+ every two days.

Hopefully the fish has survived it's time in the bucket ...
So far it has survived the bucket time. It was off balance yesterday because of it I'm sure. Today, it is all around dark, not like before where it was dark around the edges and pale in the middle, which I take for a good sign. Additionally, it seems to be breathing a little slower, not normal paced, mind you, but a bit slower than it was before, and it isn't flaring its gills as much to breath. The salt dip seems to have helped. With that being said, should another salt dip be in the works again?

Hopefully you'll see improvements soon and sort thing out.

Awesome way to go, Al !!! Yes, he is a great guy.
Yes Hopefully Dave.

Al is a hoot and a half, lol. It is always great to meet members face to face, especially one as cool as Al.

I think what I was saying has been misunderstood, so perhaps I should clarify. What I was saying that if the silicone is the suspected issue, and it is leaching a chemical into the tank, more water changes are called for not less (others had recommended reducing water changes). On the other hand, if the source water is the issue, then that is a different scenario altogether, and the source water should be treated with carbon before it enters the tank. If you attempt to medicate the tank and add carbon to the filter, the medication will be rendered useless, and the carbon spent much faster.

So, a decision is in order, you can:

A: Assume the silicone is leaching chemicals into the tank, in which case carbon in the filter Would be a good idea, or more frequent water changes.

B: Assume the source water is the culprit, in which case treating the water (think inline carbon block filter) before it enters the tank would be the best. This will also allow you to add medications to the tank ( I had suggested possibly adding acriflavin).

-Rick
Yes, understood about medicating in the main tank with the carbon in. It wasn't my plan to medicate the whole tank yet as the others are not showing anywhere near the same discomfort as the main culprit here.

Morning Rick Hope things are better for you, just curious do you adjust water temp before it goes into the tank.

AL

I have a temp mix valve that sets my water right at 84F every time.

pcsb23

05-30-2014, 10:28 AM

Another salt dip may be an option. I'd be tempted to see how it reacts for a day or so first though.

rickztahone

05-30-2014, 10:29 AM

Another salt dip may be an option. I'd be tempted to see how it reacts for a day or so first though.

Roger that. I was going to observe as well. I just wanted to know the time-frame one can do salt dips.

pcsb23

05-30-2014, 10:59 AM

Roger that. I was going to observe as well. I just wanted to know the time-frame one can do salt dips.Daily if needed but they can become hard on the fish.

seanyuki

05-30-2014, 11:16 AM

Perhaps it's physical stressors of the fish ie 1. temperature influences on the immune system of fish,2.Light,3.Sounds(environment),4. Dissolved gases.hth.

rickztahone

05-30-2014, 08:43 PM

What is the difference between a salt dip with cooking salt as opposed to epson salt? I noticed that the dark seems bloated, however, he has never ate in my care and I am not sure how it can be bloated?

seanyuki

05-30-2014, 09:23 PM

Hi Ricardo.....the compound of the salt....Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) is a laxitive. It will help constipated, bloated fish pass feces (poop). You use 1 or 2 teaspoons for each 10 gallons of tank water. Disolve the epsom salt in a cup of water and pour into tank. It should work in 2 to 4 hours. You can redose after 4 hours, but if it hasn't worked in 24 hours, it probably won't work at all.

Regular salt (sodium chloride) also sold as kosher salt, pickling salt, rock salt or aquarium salt is the type of salt we eat. It helps discus gill function and will reduce fungus and bacteria at high enough concentrations. A typical dose is 1 or 2 tablespoons per ten gallon of tank water disolved in a cup and poured in tank. This treatment usually lasts a week or so.

hth

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25743-Difference-between-Epsom-salt-and-regular-salt&highlight=salt

rickztahone

05-30-2014, 11:07 PM

Thanks Francis. I'm thinking of doing an epsom salt bath for the mild bloat, does anyone think this will stress the discus too much considering I did the salt (regular salt) dip recently?

Edit:
So far I have:
-eliminated the lights
-working on getting PFS from Lowes (it has to be special ordered)
-fed bloodworms to stimulate appetite

I am thinking of doing:
-epsom salt dip
-increasing temp to 86 gradually
-tape some white boards to the sides

One good sign I saw today is that one of the discus that never eats made an effort to want to eat some FDBW. However, the one that eats everything bullied the crap out of ALL the fish. Could this one discus really be so dominant that it is stressing the crap out of all of them? Again, I have seen bullying in the past, but today in the morning I saw some pretty heavy bullying. Even towards the sickest one which was pretty brutal. It never fought back and it was crashing over all over the place. I will not block off the dominant discus unless someone thinks it would be a good idea?

Allwin

05-31-2014, 12:53 AM

Some positives for sure. how abt ur wc schedule?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

rickztahone

05-31-2014, 01:36 AM

Well the discus is swimming about the tank listlessly and is basically bumping in to anything the current takes it towards. I noticed it has a lot of lesions on its body as well. It is still very dark as well. Should I start medicating now? I currently have metro, prazi-pro and PP on hand. The carbon went in yesterday and it seems to have done the other discus good. Today when I got home from work they were actually all around the mid part of the tank swimming together, something they hardly ever do. They didn't eat the BW I offered though, so the pig got all of those. Please advise. On to the pics:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_109_zpscef118b3.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_109_zpscef118b3.jpg.html)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_108_zps7aa59b0f.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_108_zps7aa59b0f.jpg.html)
I noticed it going sideways a lot
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_110_zpse606ed92.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_110_zpse606ed92.jpg.html)
The eyes seem cloudy as well
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_107_zps44e8154c.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_107_zps44e8154c.jpg.html)

alcastro

05-31-2014, 01:48 AM

Sorry rick, looks like bacteria and fungus, the metro i gave you will treat bacteria but you may need furan 2

pcsb23

05-31-2014, 04:06 AM

It's not bloat. Time to get the 10 gal up and running and isolate the fish. Kanamycin would be my first call.

Argentum

05-31-2014, 07:29 AM

It's not bloat. Time to get the 10 gal up and running and isolate the fish. Kanamycin would be my first call.

+1

This looks bacterial

OC Discus

05-31-2014, 08:40 AM

Would putting the 10 g where he can see the other fish help? I guess you would cover the sides, back, and bottom of the 10 g also.

rickztahone

05-31-2014, 09:01 AM

It's not bloat. Time to get the 10 gal up and running and isolate the fish. Kanamycin would be my first call.

Seeing as I dont have it on hand, can I use the meds on hand like Al suggested? Can kanamycin be purchased at lfs?

Chicago Discus

05-31-2014, 09:38 AM

Ok, She looks very bad and IMO and will not recover. Salt dips would not have been my first course of action here I think it did more harm than good with this fish. I would like you to do a kind thing and cull her. Take one of the big filters you have under the tank out and replace it with a five gallon bucket you can use for aging I would rather you have a small aging bucket than non at all. Go to Home Depot and find a color of latex paint you like and paint the sides and back of the tank. You can paint the back and sides with the discus in place I do it all the time. Get some sand or gravel and put it on the bottom of the tank to get rid of the glare. Find some rocks or pots to put in the tank so the remaining fish feel more secure. Keep the carbon going in the tank small amounts is fine just replace it every two weeks.
Once you get the other four going strong eating happy and healthy. Miranda and I will send you another Piwow Turq slightly bigger because we don't have that size anymore. The only thing we ask is that you pay shipping for the new fish. Even though we already gave you a free turq with your order you showed such enthusiasm about getting your new discus that we would like to see that again. Please understand that the discus you received were eating, happy and healthy per the video of them prior to shipping them out and we would like to see that again. We are in this business to support the hobby and for the love of discus...........Josie

PP_GBR

05-31-2014, 10:29 AM

R

Kanamycin is not easy to find locally. Go to Petsmart to buy a pack of Furan 2. Dose the tank with Furan 2 per instruction. if you see sign of improvement, please post here. In the mean time, prepare your pp stock solution, 1/4 tsp with 1 liter water or 4 cups. Use measuring spoons for baking. Your wife should have a set in her kitchen.

Use 2 ml per 1 gallon. Go to a pharmacy ask for a syringe or buy a glass cup @ walmart with ml

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Anchor-Hocking-5-oz-Measuring-Glass/17693182

rickztahone

05-31-2014, 10:45 AM

rickztahone

05-31-2014, 10:45 AM

PP_GBR

05-31-2014, 10:51 AM

Only Petsmart carries Furan 2. Petco does not carry anything with may cause cancer label in their stores.

Argentum

05-31-2014, 11:50 AM

While it is a kind offer that Joise made to replace the already free discus.

I will be sad to see this discus culled, Go ahead with the PP bath.

You might also want to run the water you are going to fill the 10 Gallons from through Carbon just as a precautionary method and to remove the chloride as well since prime will react with PP

seanyuki

05-31-2014, 12:35 PM

Petsmart do sell API Erythroymycin,

http://www.petsmart.com/fish/disease-treatment/cat-36-catid-300009?SearchParameter=%26%40QueryTerm%3D*%26Categ oryUUIDLevelX%252FnfoKmUCQmRYAAAFD8RNUeFk3%252FVRg KmUCQ1EIAAAFD5j9UeFk3%252Fm1cKmUCQ7rMAAAFDMDBUeFk3 %3DGDMKmUCQ0vAAAAFDzTNUeFk3%26CategoryUUIDLevelX%3 DnfoKmUCQmRYAAAFD8RNUeFk3%26OnlineFlag%3D1%26Brand %3DAPI%26%40Sort.CategoryPosition%3D0%26%40Sort.Sa lesRankRevenueIndex%3D0&PageSize=24&_t=Brand

MKD

05-31-2014, 12:56 PM

Rick, I have some furan 2 and Kana pro (expired but may still work)

««««««««««« please excuse smart phone poster error »»»»»»»»»»

alcastro

05-31-2014, 01:14 PM

Rick most your ma & pa fish stores carry furan 2 .
Don't forget that your water needs to go through carbon first or you will make the fish worst if you provide straight tap

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PP_GBR

05-31-2014, 04:34 PM

If you decide to treat with Furan 2, then post the result here. Once I know the condition of the fish , I will let you know when to add PP to the tank.

alancwy

05-31-2014, 07:51 PM

The discuses conditions were not too bad in the first day. They did not treat properly so that it was getting worse and worse. I saw that you mentioned you did not have PH swing. Do you know the PH of the supplier kept the fishes? If PH of you and the supplier are different, it is the PH swing! That is the problem you are facing now.

Your discuses are getting weak. They are under attacked by fungus, external and internal parasite. If it is possible, make a strong and fast formalin treatment. I suggest 1 hour at 20ml formalin for 100L of water. 90% of water change after the treatment. PP is other option but PP is not so good for parasites.

Bacteria and parasites are getting less efficiency in low PH. Try adjusting the PH down to 6.0 and increase the water temperature to 90F (32C). It will increase the metabolism and help the discus to fight that battle.

Hope it can help you.

nc0gnet0

05-31-2014, 08:09 PM

nc0gnet0

05-31-2014, 09:28 PM

I saw that you mentioned you did not have PH swing. Do you know the PH of the supplier kept the fishes? If PH of you and the supplier are different, it is the PH swing! That is the problem you are facing now.

Bacteria and parasites are getting less efficiency in low PH. Try adjusting the PH down to 6.0 and increase the water temperature to 90F (32C). It will increase the metabolism and help the discus to fight that battle.

If I am understanding what your saying, you state that a PH difference between the suppliers tanks and the OP's tanks was the cause of the problem, and the solution to the problem is to do the same thing?

Explain to me why this is a good idea?

Heat is the last thing you want to increase to this discus. It would result in less dissolved 02 in the water making it harder for him to breath, and would increase not only his metabolism, but that of any bacterial infection he might have (btw fungus rarely attacks a healthy fish), make it (the bacteria) multiply at an exponentially faster rate.

OC Discus

05-31-2014, 09:54 PM

The cost of treating a large tank with several meds could quickly add up to the cost of shipping the new fish. If you let the fish die in the tank you might increase the risk of infecting the other fish with some as yet undetermined illness.

alancwy

05-31-2014, 10:35 PM

If I am understanding what your saying, you state that a PH difference between the suppliers tanks and the OP's tanks was the cause of the problem, and the solution to the problem is to do the same thing?

Explain to me why this is a good idea?

Heat is the last thing you want to increase to this discus. It would result in less dissolved 02 in the water making it harder for him to breath, and would increase not only his metabolism, but that of any bacterial infection he might have (btw fungus rarely attacks a healthy fish), make it (the bacteria) multiply and an exponentially faster rate.

The idea is very simply. Discus likes to live in a PH around 6.5. All the parasites and fungus will be less active in a low PH. Do not believe there is a bacteria and parasites free environment. They are control in an amount that do not affect the discus itself.

If the discuses transit for a long time (or environment change), they are suffering and getting weak. They cannot control the parasite and you may see the effect of all those fungus and parasites effect. This is the reason to consult of the feeding environment from the supplier. You can adjust the PH and temperature accordingly.

It is true that high temperature will make the fungus more active. Do not forget PH is the key factor. PH must be adjusted to 6.0 to control the fungus. It is also true you mentioned the less oxygen in high temperature. You can increase the air pump volume to compensate the effect. I have a little surprise by this question. Do you try salt + high temperature to cure the small problem before?

Formalin is my favorite medicine. It can cure both fungus and external parasite effectively. If formalin is not easy to get, you can try other medicine that can control both fungus and parasites.

nc0gnet0

05-31-2014, 11:25 PM

The idea is very simply. Discus likes to live in a PH around 6.5.

Simple, yet wrong. Domestic discus have been born, raised, and fully acclimated to ph>7. If you statement were to be made about wild discus, it would have some merit. While the statements you make about the bacterial proliferation (and to a lesser extent some parasites) in lower PH is generally true, the means that it would take to obtain the lower ph with most of our water supplies would prove to be more detrimental to the fish than the benefits it would reap.

Formalin is my favorite medicine. It can cure both fungus and external parasite effectively.

Formaldehyde has it's uses, but is highly carcinogenic, and should be used sparingly, if at all. Repeated use can lead to organ failure and premature death, many months or years after its use. Once again, fungus rarely effects living fish, but rather there are some strains of bacteria that present themselves as fungus like.

You can increase the air pump volume to compensate the effect.

It will not offset the simple fact the water at a higher temperature can not support as much dissolved oxygen (lots of bubbles are nice, but the fish don't breath the bubbles) as water at a lower temperature. If the fish is showing signs of distressed breathing, or an oxygen reducing agent (such as PP or formalin that you suggest, or salt) is used, temperatures should not be raised.

rickztahone

05-31-2014, 11:31 PM

nc0gnet0

05-31-2014, 11:44 PM

Back to the subject at hand:

Rick,

Paul's suggestion of treating with kanamycin is the best, but furan 2 is a good second choice. Trouble with kanamcyin is it is hard to obtain, with the only thing I have ever seen at the pet stores the seachem product (kanaplex) which is incredibly overpriced, and far from pure kanamycin (it's watered down).

Treatment needs to be done in a QT tank, if your not willing to get one, best thing to do is cull the fish. Start with furan 2, and order some kanamycin, when it arrives, it can be added to the furan 2 (the two work really well together actually). Combining the three(furan two is a combination of two antibiotics) would give you an aminoglycoside, a bacteriostatic, and a bactericidal agent.

Jehmco no longer carries kanamycin, I believe Angels Plus still does, and I am not sure about Ken's Fish.

http://www.angelsplus.com/MedsAntibiotic.htm

There is also another product out there that not many have heard of, and performing a quick dip in the solution before adding to the qt tank would speed up recovery and increase the effectiveness of the antibiotics. Pm me if you are interested.

-Rick

alancwy

06-01-2014, 12:14 AM

.

Simple, yet wrong. Domestic discus have been born, raised, and fully acclimated to ph>7. If you statement were to be made about wild discus, it would have some merit. While the statements you make about the bacterial proliferation (and to a lesser extent some parasites) in lower PH is generally true, the means that it would take to obtain the lower ph with most of our water supplies would prove to be more detrimental to the fish than the benefits it would reap.

Formaldehyde has it's uses, but is highly carcinogenic, and should be used sparingly, if at all. Repeated use can lead to organ failure and premature death, many months or years after its use. Once again, fungus rarely effects living fish, but rather there are some strains of bacteria that present themselves as fungus like.

It will not offset the simple fact the oxygen at a higher temperature can not support as much dissolved oxygen (lots of bubbles are nice, but the fish don't breath the bubbles) as water at a lower temperature. If the fish is showing signs of distressed breathing, or an oxygen reducing agent (such as PP or formalin that you suggest, or salt) is used, temperatures should not be raised.

Perhaps you did not truly see the points I made. I said checking the feeding environment of the supplier to make sure it was not a PH swing effect. If you do not know the PH of the supplier, how do not know any different between the buyer and the supplier?

I said lower the PH to 6.0. That is a good PH setting to make the fungus and parasites less active and the discus feels more comfortable. It helps them to cure itself easier. The domestic discus are said to be fed in a PH > 7. The same question, how do you know? Ask and check for the supplier is not a big deal, just give him a call and he will give you an answer.

Domestic discus can be fed in a more user friendly environment like you said PH > 7 and hard water. Do you compare the different between the discus fed in PH 6.5 and TDS around 100? Water is the key effect. If you do not have good water, do not think about you can have good discus.

Formalin is carcinogenic. It is also true. You are not dip the discus for a long time, Formalin has been used in the discus for a long time. If you consider all those bad effects, all the discus had been killed already. Why do you still have discus in nowadays? Think about all the samples in laboratory. Are the people working there all get cancer? Suitable used but not abuse!

While you doing the PP or formalin treatment, you do not raise the temperature. You are right again. BUT……. How long is the PP and formalin treatment? PP is 20 minutes and formalin is 1 hour. I did not said to increase the temperature during the treatment. Even you increase it, will it do any harm?

Perhaps I made you confuse. The water temperature will be increased after the formalin treatment but not during the treatment.

Believe it or not, increase temperature is one of old treatment method of discus. It has proved it helps discus to cure and recover by itself. It is meaningless to argue about that. After the treatment, the temperature must return to normal.

Once again, good discus comes from good water. Not medicine!

nc0gnet0

06-01-2014, 12:27 AM

If you do not know the PH of the supplier, how do not know any different between the buyer and the supplier?

Actually I do, but do you?

Believe it or not, increase temperature is one of old treatment method of discus. It has proved it helps discus to cure and recover by itself. It is meaningless to argue about that.

There are a lot of the "old" treatments that are based on misconceptions, overuse, and misdiagnosis's. Generally speaking some of them where used effectively to cure or treat a specific disease and or parasite, and people such as yourself then adopted them to treat all disease's and parasites, many times with less than desirable effects.

alancwy

06-01-2014, 01:00 AM

Actually I do, but do you?

There are a lot of the "old" treatments that are based on misconceptions, overuse, and misdiagnosis's. Generally speaking some of them where used effectively to cure or treat a specific disease and or parasite, and people such as yourself then adopted them to treat all disease's and parasites, many times with less than desirable effects.

It seems you are so strange. You kept telling what you think is correct and thousand people are all doing the wrong thing. You kept saying I am wrong you are right. I do not mind to adopt your idea if you are right. I am not a doctor or chemical man. I followed the old methods and it works for me.

Once again, how do you know you are right and the others all over the world are wrong?

Medicine or method is your tools. A discus champion and you may both feed the same kind of discuses. Why the discuses are getting different? Learn to use your tools properly and do not cut your little fingers.

One point is always true. Good discus from good water. Not medicine!

nc0gnet0

06-01-2014, 01:28 AM

One point is always true. Good discus from good water. Not medicine!

Your the one that is advising the use of embalming fluid, while I am recommending the use of target specific anti-bacterial agents developed by modern medicine, not something left over from the iron age. I will concur on the good water point, however I think we might even disagree on what the defintion of even that is.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 10:26 AM

Thanks guys and gals but it is all rendered moot now, the discus passed over night. Thank you all for the help.

Second Hand Pat

06-01-2014, 10:30 AM

Thanks guys and gals but it is all rendered moot now, the discus passed over night. Thank you all for the help.

Sprry to hear that Rick. Always bites to lose one.
Pat

alcastro

06-01-2014, 10:57 AM

Sorry Rick

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Discusdude7

06-01-2014, 12:11 PM

Sorry to hear that rick

OC Discus

06-01-2014, 03:15 PM

Hope the new one makes a better adjustment. How are the other 4?

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musicmarn1

06-01-2014, 03:35 PM

So So sorry Rick, :( how are the others doing?, will look at your other thread to keep up the moral support for the others, hopefully they are improving in leaps and bounds, ruling out silicone and water issues? did you run your tap water through carbon or age it after this for them im curious to see if that helped them improve or not?

poor fish I feel awful for you and her. Some amazing support from the forum here though, it's so darn confusing what to do for the best at times. I get left with many things from this that taught me the following lessons; , correct any of the non medication factors FAST, in case meds are for sure needed but always rule out WC issues first and asap. The quicker you do that the quicker you can see what is next to work on.

Second I learned never get caught without a well set up hospital tank

Third I learned the benefits of running my tap water, which is best aged, if not just for pH swing but for bubbles for sure, through carbon if something like this happens, to rule out impurities in water causing issues.

Question there, were the lesions and sores from her thrashing around in stress? when exactly did those appear in the timeline? right after shipping (ie a soccer party with your box or in the tank due to stress? or later ?)just curious because if this fish died at least i know i learned a lot from reading this thread so that is a teeny tiny something to come out of it.

next i learned that so much input when your stressed can hinder not help , or is that just me? it felt, reading the thread that if three or four key people just helped you that it would have been a much faster process? you seemed to value all input which is lovely and id be grateful too but i have to ask, did it confuse you at all or make you stop and start on different tracks? of course when i ask for help i want all help possible !i just thought reading this that its hard when your stressed to hear the advice and correctly match it with whaty YOUare seeing at home with your fish, if there is too much of it, i agree kanamycin can be hard to find here !furan 2 much quicker to get i can get it from amazon , i use kens fish, amazon and drs foster and smith since i am a million miles away from anywhere that sells meds. ill just throw out stuff and get new i havent used it yet but i wish id had it for my one shipping disaster with a wild who did recover but only after intensive care and much help from the forum. Oh and i keep PP since i use that on fry and other fish comfortably now, my supplier walked me through it and im glad i have it.

it seems that even though that fish died, experimenting if you can keep notes of what worked or made it worse, is worth the effort. though you can clearly be forgiven for making the call to cull, its hard to let go when you think ther is still hope and i do think its worth some try. unfortunately beginners learn on their animals, thats true of horse riding, dog training and many more including fish keeping ! you werent a beginner but this was a new situation and i know ive learned on my fish for sure.

it seems that what we want to do is quickly work on any unknowns, in this case the suggested unknowns like microbubbles, shipping stress weakening the fish, silicone safety, source water quality. and lastly tank environment.

it wasnt Just one fish affected but only one was hit so hard, salt seemed to help right but not enough, quickly enough. people here were calling out fungus, bacteria and lesions, i saw lesions and dark fish with cloudy eyes at the end. not sure myself what the end diagnosis there really is. except secondary infection after significant stress and perhaps water/environment factors reaction?

again thank you Rick for posting everything you did and keeping your notes here of what you did in response. and so so sorry for the stress of that experience, it blows chunks *hug*

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 07:16 PM

Hope the new one makes a better adjustment. How are the other 4?

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Unfortunately it continues...

So So sorry Rick, :( how are the others doing?, will look at your other thread to keep up the moral support for the others, hopefully they are improving in leaps and bounds, ruling out silicone and water issues? did you run your tap water through carbon or age it after this for them im curious to see if that helped them improve or not?

poor fish I feel awful for you and her. Some amazing support from the forum here though, it's so darn confusing what to do for the best at times. I get left with many things from this that taught me the following lessons; , correct any of the non medication factors FAST, in case meds are for sure needed but always rule out WC issues first and asap. The quicker you do that the quicker you can see what is next to work on.

Second I learned never get caught without a well set up hospital tank

Third I learned the benefits of running my tap water, which is best aged, if not just for pH swing but for bubbles for sure, through carbon if something like this happens, to rule out impurities in water causing issues.

Question there, were the lesions and sores from her thrashing around in stress? when exactly did those appear in the timeline? right after shipping (ie a soccer party with your box or in the tank due to stress? or later ?)just curious because if this fish died at least i know i learned a lot from reading this thread so that is a teeny tiny something to come out of it.

next i learned that so much input when your stressed can hinder not help , or is that just me? it felt, reading the thread that if three or four key people just helped you that it would have been a much faster process? you seemed to value all input which is lovely and id be grateful too but i have to ask, did it confuse you at all or make you stop and start on different tracks? of course when i ask for help i want all help possible !i just thought reading this that its hard when your stressed to hear the advice and correctly match it with whaty YOUare seeing at home with your fish, if there is too much of it, i agree kanamycin can be hard to find here !furan 2 much quicker to get i can get it from amazon , i use kens fish, amazon and drs foster and smith since i am a million miles away from anywhere that sells meds. ill just throw out stuff and get new i havent used it yet but i wish id had it for my one shipping disaster with a wild who did recover but only after intensive care and much help from the forum. Oh and i keep PP since i use that on fry and other fish comfortably now, my supplier walked me through it and im glad i have it.

it seems that even though that fish died, experimenting if you can keep notes of what worked or made it worse, is worth the effort. though you can clearly be forgiven for making the call to cull, its hard to let go when you think ther is still hope and i do think its worth some try. unfortunately beginners learn on their animals, thats true of horse riding, dog training and many more including fish keeping ! you werent a beginner but this was a new situation and i know ive learned on my fish for sure.

it seems that what we want to do is quickly work on any unknowns, in this case the suggested unknowns like microbubbles, shipping stress weakening the fish, silicone safety, source water quality. and lastly tank environment.

it wasnt Just one fish affected but only one was hit so hard, salt seemed to help right but not enough, quickly enough. people here were calling out fungus, bacteria and lesions, i saw lesions and dark fish with cloudy eyes at the end. not sure myself what the end diagnosis there really is. except secondary infection after significant stress and perhaps water/environment factors reaction?

again thank you Rick for posting everything you did and keeping your notes here of what you did in response. and so so sorry for the stress of that experience, it blows chunks *hug*

I will try to answer your questions later on. Right now I need to post the following video to see if anyone thinks I should jump the gun and just treat this one right now. I came home today after being gone all morning and the main dominant fish in the group seemed off. It didn't rush towards the top for food. It didn't EAT the food after I put it in the tank which was odd. Also, I noticed lesions on the side which I tried to capture on video. They weren't there yesterday. Lastly, I noticed it leaning towards the side. This is the one discus that bullies everyone around, and right now it is not doing any of that, it is just huddled up in the corner with the rest of them. I haven't done a WC today, and I have been doing small wc's the past few days since the last fish.

Any ideas welcomed
http://youtu.be/2USJtinB1Bs

http://youtu.be/2USJtinB1Bs

It definitely looks similar to what the other discus had. You can not make it out that well on the video though. It is by the dorsal fin. It is also much darker than usual.

I have the furan 2 on hand now. Should I just start treating?

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 07:20 PM

Lastly, if I do put this one in QT, should I sterilize the 10g tank first?

Second Hand Pat

06-01-2014, 07:27 PM

Rick, place the affected fish in the 10 after cleaning. If it improves something with the tank is contaminating the water.

PP_GBR

06-01-2014, 07:46 PM

R

PP first for 4 hrs then Furan 2. PM me if you are interested.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 08:24 PM

R

PP first for 4 hrs then Furan 2. PM me if you are interested.

I have decided not to do PP for one reason, and that is that I think my water may be the culprit here. If that is the case, when you do PP, you do not use a de-chlorinator. Without a de-chlorinator, I believe that would do the discus more harm than good. I have a carbon pack currently, but it is on my XP3. I have no way to run the carbon for the 10g, so I have to use a de-chlorinator.

Pat, place in QT and medicate? Or only observe? As of right now it is still in the main tank. I have to do a small water change because I checked nitrates and they were right around 20.

I swear, if I lose another one I am going to just sell the other 3 for a huge loss and completely break down the tank to be the shortest re-introduction to discus in a while.

Second Hand Pat

06-01-2014, 08:28 PM

Observe Rick, trying to determine if something about the tank is polluting the water.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 08:33 PM

Observe Rick, trying to determine if something about the tank is polluting the water.

The thing is, I would be getting the water source from the exact same place. I'm thinking of visiting a guy that member Al suggested that sells inline filters. This way, I can eliminate one variable. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't frustrated though. So, I probably need to step back, breathe, and spend some good quality time with the kids to put me in a good mood.

Do you still advise to put the fish in QT?

Second Hand Pat

06-01-2014, 08:37 PM

Rick, what do you have to lose at this point? Reason for the sugguetion is rule out or not the tank itself as a contamination point vs the water. Sorry you are having these issues. :(

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 08:50 PM

Rick, what do you have to lose at this point? Reason for the sugguetion is rule out or not the tank itself as a contamination point vs the water. Sorry you are having these issues. :(

Ah, I see. In case it is the silicone you mean? Got it. I can run a small hob filter with carbon in the small 10g too. I would obviously take it out if I needed to medicate, which is looking like I will have to soon. It is on it's side most times when I go look now. Also, I noticed its lips were getting whiter as well, just as the other one that passed. Again, I have the Furan2 on hand if I need to medicate.

alcastro

06-01-2014, 09:19 PM

Rick i have a 40 galoon if you need to use it, you need to disinfect it, i wont be using it for a while

PP_GBR

06-01-2014, 09:34 PM

You could buy 10 gallons of water from Home Depot or a vending machine or perhaps Lfs. I left CA 20 yrs ago and wonder if they still have those water vending machines at super markets.

If I were you, I would hold off on getting your replacement fish until after you sort out your problem.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 10:06 PM

Rick i have a 40 galoon if you need to use it, you need to disinfect it, i wont be using it for a while
Thanks Al. I will stick to the 10g for now.

You could buy 10 gallons of water from Home Depot or a vending machine or perhaps Lfs. I left CA 20 yrs ago and wonder if they still have those water vending machines at super markets.

If I were you, I would hold off on getting your replacement fish until after you sort out your problem.
Good point, but I do not have anything to remineralize it. I've used it in the past for shrimp water changes and they have a tds of 5.

alcastro

06-01-2014, 10:30 PM

Rick here is the info on the filter place Premier Water Systems 661-575-0033 they also sell on ebay Santa Clarita CA.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 11:12 PM

Rick here is the info on the filter place Premier Water Systems 661-575-0033 they also sell on ebay Santa Clarita CA.

Al, is it one like this one? (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Premier-Under-Counter-Dual-Water-Filter-Drinking-Water-System-Carbon-Sediment-/270888963990?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item3f123d8f96)

PP_GBR

06-01-2014, 11:36 PM

Whatever you decide, do not take too long. I hate to see you losing another fish.
Good luck.

rickztahone

06-01-2014, 11:54 PM

Whatever you decide, do not take too long. I hate to see you losing another fish.
Good luck.

You and me both.

The discus has been in QT for a few hours now. It has a HOB with carbon and some filter floss. Heater is up to 84, same as main tank. No meds yet, just observing like Pat recommended. I have not noticed it going on its side at all since being put in QT. It seems a lot calmer in there as well. I will keep a really close eye on it and if it shows any more signs of bacterial infection, i will treat with the Furan2 asap.

Second Hand Pat

06-02-2014, 12:05 AM

Fingers crossed Rick. If the fish continues to improve then that 40 being offered might be a good idea.

alcastro

06-02-2014, 12:15 AM

Yes but I would recommend three stage 1 sediment, activated carbon, and carbon block , when you call him ask him to make it for you and give you the hose adapter , he is a nice guy

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rickztahone

06-02-2014, 10:55 AM

musicmarn1

06-02-2014, 11:48 AM

Rick, something putting lesions in your fish is a major major deal, surely more than water it's got to be contaminant in tank right? You only have two eliminate two possible things here one water and two tank

I'd get that 40g ASAP since its so easy to clean I with vinegar and salt, rinse dry and move everyone in there, those are lovely fish, no one wants to see you suffer this so we all send calm steady thoughts and objective suggestions

Get the fish out of the tank, work on the filter and water Q and I bet three of my best discus that you have a major improvement

1/. The stress, heavy breathing and white feces in the start plus Josies comment something in that tank is wrong for those fish.

2/. Don't wait you have come this far, it's not the discus fault lol they do have pretty strong symptoms now that its major problem. Hang in there buddy and act with the things that cannot hurt!

rickztahone

06-02-2014, 02:33 PM

If anyone in the socal area wants to buy them to provide better water conditions, you can have the lot (4) for $80ea. I just dont want them to deteriorate in my tank. Lmk via pm

alcastro

06-02-2014, 02:46 PM

If I hades the space bammmmm

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rickztahone

06-02-2014, 05:48 PM

If I hades the space bammmmm

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No worries Al. I will keep trying my darnest from this point on.

I ordered the sand today to put as a substrate.
Once I get paid on the 5th I plan on buying a large tote to age the water, at least temporarily, even if my wife gets mad at me. However, I have to buy a heater to heat that water as well. I will check to see if I have any heaters lying around but I doubt it. The one I bought for the QT is rated up to 30g but that wouldn't be enough. It heats up the 10g well though, steady.

Update on the QT guy:
He has not once gone sideways, or turned dark. He is showing his bars a little though which is something it never did before. However, all in all, it is doing very well in there. So much so, that I don't think I need to medicate it, the lesion it had before is starting to go away. The ones in the main tank are still not eating, even without the bully in there though. I notice white feces just as I did when I received them, which means they have not ate anything for 3 weeks now.

alcastro

06-02-2014, 06:05 PM

Looks like you got a second wind

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alcastro

06-02-2014, 06:13 PM

Rick I got a 300 watt heater pick up the 40 and maybe you can turn your tank to water storage with some kind of liner

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rickztahone

06-02-2014, 06:16 PM

Rick I got a 300 watt heater pick up the 40 and maybe you can turn your tank to water storage with some kind of liner

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This could work. I'd lose all the BB in the main tank, but I'd have an "aging barrel" of sorts. Again, the significant other will not be pleased.

Btw, I owe you so much for your support. A Tequila bottle is in your near future Sir!

alcastro

06-02-2014, 06:20 PM

Like Pat said maybe your silicon

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alcastro

06-02-2014, 06:37 PM

Rick you have a truck because I also have a dog house. Ha I crack my self up
Really hope you don't have problem

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MKD

06-02-2014, 06:44 PM

If anyone in the socal area wants to buy them to provide better water conditions, you can have the lot (4) for $80ea. I just dont want them to deteriorate in my tank. Lmk via pm

You got PM.

Al - set up 1 more, i won't tell :)

rickztahone

06-02-2014, 06:57 PM

Rick you have a truck because I also have a dog house. Ha I crack my self up
Really hope you don't have problem

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Lol.

You got PM.

Al - set up 1 more, i won't tell :)

Pm answered.

DavidH

06-02-2014, 09:12 PM

At least try Metro.
Why not at this point.
No expert just a suggestion.
Good luck friend!

rickztahone

06-02-2014, 09:38 PM

At least try Metro.
Why not at this point.
No expert just a suggestion.
Good luck friend!

The last discus got a round of metro and Furan2 to no avail. I believe it was too late for that one, so I am keeping a close eye on the QT discus. The others worry me because they haven't ate but maybe they come around. I will medicate whenever I see the first signs of something similar. Under observation the bully does not seem sick at all besides showing bars.

Argentum

06-03-2014, 04:45 AM

Rick,

I have been following this thread step by step and I am sorry for your loss, however up to this moment you haven't eliminated either the silicone or the source water to be the problem.

Someone suggested using bottled water to fill your 55, this is a great idea and you should not be worried about re-mineralising the water, as will not be using it forever, it will be just for a test. And I kept discus at 100% RO water for several weeks with no issues.

If they are okay then it's 100% your water.
Otherwise you will know it's 50% your silicone, the other 50% will be sickness (which needs acting fast).

If using mineral water didn't solve your problem then without delay move then in the 40 Gal someone offered to give you, fill it with bottled or your tap after running through AC, and observe if the are okay then it's 100% your Silicone causing issues, otherwise, its sickness and you have to medicate immediately.

I think this is an essential step before you go on and purchase a filter or a aging barrel.

I also don't believe its because of stress, because stress alone doesn't cause lesions. besides these fish were kept in BB in Piwow. hatchery and most probably in Joise tanks as well, so hold on the sand if this is not what you initially wanted.

nc0gnet0

06-03-2014, 10:16 AM

I also don't believe its because of stress, because stress alone doesn't cause lesions.

Diagnosis's that called out stress as the culprit were based on original description of symptoms prior to seeing pictures and the condition becoming worse.

Is the source water municipal or is it well water?

rickztahone

06-03-2014, 12:33 PM

It is municipal water.

Len

06-03-2014, 01:12 PM

Just to clarify the point about stress alone doesn't cause lesions, if the fish were stressed and had dashed about in the tank (not uncommon at all) then it could have incurred these in that manner. Regardless of what is wrong with the fish, lesions don't just appear instantly.

rickztahone

06-03-2014, 01:50 PM

alcastro

06-03-2014, 01:54 PM

Rick how are the others doing

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nc0gnet0

06-03-2014, 03:31 PM

It is municipal water.

This swings the pendulum more towards and outside contaminate such as the silicone, or a disease, rather than the source water. I have never used GE 1 silicone, never thought it worth the risk IMO, although many have. I always use this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aqueon-100-Aquarium-Silicone-Sealant-Clear-10-3oz-Fish-Tank-Repair-/251532485436?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9081233c

Kal-El

06-03-2014, 04:17 PM

This swings the pendulum more towards and outside contaminate such as the silicone, or a disease, rather than the source water. I have never used GE 1 silicone, never thought it worth the risk IMO, although many have. I always use this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aqueon-100-Aquarium-Silicone-Sealant-Clear-10-3oz-Fish-Tank-Repair-/251532485436?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a9081233c

I've use GE 1 silicone which is recommend by Joey aka (DIY King) who uses them to build many tanks and never once had any issue with fish. If that's what he use I don't think that's the issue.

nc0gnet0

06-03-2014, 07:05 PM

I've use GE 1 silicone which is recommend by Joey aka (DIY King) who uses them to build many tanks and never once had any issue with fish. If that's what he use I don't think that's the issue.

that being said, I still prefer to use products that claim to be fish safe, not those that claim not to be.

Len

06-03-2014, 07:09 PM

nc0gnet0

06-03-2014, 07:17 PM

Just a thought but is there a chance that GE 1 made in the US is different than that made here in Canada? Joey is also up here which may be why we've had no problem with it, but that's not to say it doesn't have the extra ingredient added when made in US.

or they just choose to up the amount of mold inhibitor in the silicone, as it is already listed as an ingredient.

rickztahone

06-03-2014, 08:42 PM

Rick how are the others doing

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Doing great actually. Still not eating but none are acting different. I bumpped up the temp to try to stimulate their apetite. I'll text you later bud.

OC Discus

06-04-2014, 12:51 AM

How is the fish in qt today? Staying upright? Color? Eating?

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rickztahone

06-04-2014, 01:14 AM

Yes to all the questions. It is doing great. I hope it remains that way.

OC Discus

06-04-2014, 01:31 AM

Instant improvement with the same source water seems to implicate the silicone or something else in the tank.

Len

06-04-2014, 09:40 AM

or they just choose to up the amount of mold inhibitor in the silicone, as it is already listed as an ingredient.

It's not listed as an ingredient on the tubes I have and GE stated it wasn't present at the time. Granted the tubes are a couple years old now, but it would be nice to know for sure if there was a difference. It'd be a shame to tell someone to go ahead and use it not realizing it has an added ingredient in the US that causes them to lose fish.

Kal-El

06-04-2014, 10:53 AM

or they just choose to up the amount of mold inhibitor in the silicone, as it is already listed as an ingredient.

There is no mold inhibitor listed on my GE S1. Mine was purchase two months ago and does not list or mention there's any mold inhibitor added. I know the other GE silicone shows it on it. I highly doubt that they would add these things without mentioning it on it.

nc0gnet0

06-04-2014, 12:14 PM

Kal-El

06-04-2014, 12:33 PM

http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-terrarium-enclosure-discussion/17172-warning-ge-silicone-i-ii-probably-no-longer-safe-due-added-mildew-inhibitor.html

"GE Silicone I and II, long used by fish- and frog-keepers and generally thought of to be aquarium safe, is probably no longer so. GE began using mildew inhibitors (Bioseal) recently in most their silicone products, even if the label says "100% silicone" and doesn't mention anything about mildew. According to an email from GE, all their silicone has trace amounts mildew inhibitors now except for the 1200."

That's an old thread. Here's a recent thread about the GE silicone 1.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?581844-Ge-silicone-I-and-II-not-aquarium-safe

There's two types of GE silocone 1. You must make sure you look in the fine print and get the GE 1 window & door without the inhibitors.

and here's another disccusion about the GE 1 at Joey's site http://diyfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?8137-GE-silicone

rickztahone

06-04-2014, 01:16 PM

That's an old thread. Here's a recent thread about the GE silicone 1.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?581844-Ge-silicone-I-and-II-not-aquarium-safe

There's two types of GE silocone 1. You must make sure you look in the fine print and get the GE 1 window & door without the inhibitors.

and here's another disccusion about the GE 1 at Joey's site http://diyfishkeepers.com/forum/showthread.php?8137-GE-silicone

Which is exactly the same one I have used and did use this time around.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg.html)
Honestly guys, if it was the silicone, all of the fish would be dark, super stressed and probably would have all died by now. The carbon would have reduced it as well. The silicone initially cured for over 2 weeks. I know the silicone isn't the problem here.

I get it, many of you wouldn't use it. But many, many people in the aquarium hobby use this stuff all the time. It isn't something I just got on a whim, I have researched it in the past and this time as well.

Len

06-04-2014, 01:30 PM

When I contacted GE before I bought the GE type 1, I called GE and inquired because it was almost $20 for a small tube from the pet shop for "aquarium safe silicone" and I'd need several. At the time, that was the difference between type 1 and 2. 2 had the mold inhibitor added whereas type 1 did not. I asked why it stated to for use in aquariums and was told it was a legality and that the same silicone was in fact packaged differently and sold for use in aquariums. That seemed odd, but I figured the manufacturer would have no reason to mislead me about what was added or not so I went ahead and used it. To date haven't had any issues and I've used quite a bit of it. All that being said, there still could be a difference between markets and the formulation could have changed. The link posted above for the aquarium safe silicone really wasn't that bad. other than the bother of taking the current stuff out and resealing, it may be worth it if the silcone can't be ruled out completely as the root cause.

nc0gnet0

06-04-2014, 01:41 PM

Which is exactly the same one I have used and did use this time around.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg.html)
Honestly guys, if it was the silicone, all of the fish would be dark, super stressed and probably would have all died by now. The carbon would have reduced it as well. The silicone initially cured for over 2 weeks. I know the silicone isn't the problem here.

I get it, many of you wouldn't use it. But many, many people in the aquarium hobby use this stuff all the time. It isn't something I just got on a whim, I have researched it in the past and this time as well.

Label says "not intended for aquarium use", to most, that would be enough said. Symptoms you are now experiencing seem to point to a contaminate don't they? If it is not the silicone then what is it? Hard to say how the manufacturing process works at the silicone factory, perhaps they run both types through the same machinery and the first few cases of type 1 without inhibitors actually do have trace amounts (IIRC anything less than 1% is not required to be reported as an ingredient).

Now, in my book, it's just not worth the extra six bucks to take the risk, maybe to some of you it is. It is possible that the fish arrived with a sickness, but it would seem we would be seeing more disease threads like this pointing back to the same supplier.

You must make sure you look in the fine print

The part where it says "not intended for aquarium use" isn't hard to find at all. Look, if for no other reason, using the product pretty much voids any warranty you may or may not get from your fish supplier. In my book, thats good enough reason not to use the product and spend an extra 6 bucks.

alcastro

06-04-2014, 01:51 PM

Rick is the fish in the qt doing better than the others in the other tank

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Kal-El

06-04-2014, 01:58 PM

Those of us that have use it knows there's no issue. GE put that ""not intended for aquarium use" as a legal disclaimer so that if someone use it on their tanks something goes wrong such as silicone not holding the glass together correctly causing it to break or leak they cannot get sue for. Either-way, there will always be two half when it comes to this debate. IMO the way the fish was breathing and how it look in the video has me thinking it's disease related. That's just my opinion and I'm sure Rick knows what he needs to do after this point. Good luck and do keep us posted.

nc0gnet0

06-04-2014, 02:05 PM

GE put that ""not intended for aquarium use" as a legal disclaimer so that if someone use it on their tanks something goes wrong such as silicone not holding the glass together correctly causing it to break or leak they cannot get sue for.

I have heard that argument, not only is it not aquarium safe, but it is not food grade as well. Food grade=fish safe. The product is not allowed in any FDA inspected food facility, and these are not underwater.

OC Discus

06-04-2014, 02:10 PM

I don't think it is accurate to say if it were the silicone all would be sick. 10 people can be exposed to the flu and only 1 may get it. Stress has a huge impact on immunity.

Which is exactly the same one I have used and did use this time around.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/rickztahone/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/rickztahone/media/FishTank_2_zpsbb512e83.jpg.html)
Honestly guys, if it was the silicone, all of the fish would be dark, super stressed and probably would have all died by now. The carbon would have reduced it as well. The silicone initially cured for over 2 weeks. I know the silicone isn't the problem here.

I get it, many of you wouldn't use it. But many, many people in the aquarium hobby use this stuff all the time. It isn't something I just got on a whim, I have researched it in the past and this time as well.

Len

06-04-2014, 02:16 PM

We're not talking about food safety labels and qualifications vs fish safe qualifications, but it really isn't worth a debate. The more important goal is to help Rick get his fish back into good health -- not who's right, who's wrong or who holds the highest score in "debate club" If a tube of aquarium safe silicone is only $15, then Rick can decide if he wants to go that route and eliminate the silicone 100% as the root cause.

Discusdude7

06-10-2014, 09:10 PM

How are they doing?

rickztahone

06-10-2014, 09:45 PM

Much much better today. The 2 that never ate finally started eating after about a week of medicating. Stress bars going away, no clamped fins or huddled together hiding. Very happy about it. Thanks.

alcastro

06-10-2014, 10:01 PM

That's great news my friend we need to celebrate
Salud

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/11/sy6enemy.jpg

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Kal-El

06-10-2014, 11:27 PM

Awesome news buddy... I knew you'll make the right move. Glad to see the fish are doing well...

Chicago Discus

06-11-2014, 12:13 AM

Much much better today. The 2 that never ate finally started eating after about a week of medicating. Stress bars going away, no clamped fins or huddled together hiding. Very happy about it. Thanks.

Keep up the good work :).........Josie

musicmarn1

06-11-2014, 01:57 AM

That's great news my friend we need to celebrate
Salud

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+200! HURRAH!! Thank goodness for meds in time! Well done. What meds did you go with or did I miss it?

rickztahone

06-11-2014, 06:41 PM

That's great news my friend we need to celebrate
Salud

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/11/sy6enemy.jpg

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Thank you my friend.

Awesome news buddy... I knew you'll make the right move. Glad to see the fish are doing well...
Thank you very much!

Keep up the good work :).........Josie
Thanks Josie, I will try.

+200! HURRAH!! Thank goodness for meds in time! Well done. What meds did you go with or did I miss it?

I went with the meds that Al was so kindly willing to give me. I used Metro and Prazi at 92F. The treatment is still going on but will be done soon. Since 2 weren't eating, I was advised by a very knowledgeable discus keeper to treat them directly. So, I had to use a syringe and take them out of the water and treat in this fashion. This was in addition to treating the water column as well, and some FBW's for the 2 that were eating. The Prazi was straight in to the water column. I noticed them breathing from both gills at all times now. Before, they would once in a while breath from only one gill.

Here's hoping that they are on a road to recovery, and I hope this hasn't stunted their growth at all. The original smaller one of the group get much smaller than when I received it originally. It wasn't doing very well.

Thank you all folks.