CO2 solenoid Failure warning

[kjinfrek]

Sorry I don't post often, if ever, but I do read these forums often and have found great wisdom in the past few years I have been a member. So I wish to pass a bit of "wisdom" I have come by the hardest of ways. I had a high tech planted discus tank with all the fixings, LED lighting, timers, CO2 injection with a PH controller and a solenoid to shut it off. Therein lies my disaster. I am mostly paranoid of anything that would hurt my 18 beautiful discus I had in my 300 gallon pride and joy tank,so I had back up for everything I could think of, power, two of just about everything in the tank, just incase.... But this past mon morning I woke up just as I have every other day for the past 3 years, got ready for work, and checked the tank on the way out the door....... To my horror every animal I had in the tank was floating...... $4000.00 of discus and rare plecos. After cleaning up, (and crying my heart out) I tore everything apart to find the problem. As I was looking at what I could have done different I came to the CO2. I finally realized that the solenoid that was shutting off the CO2 failed OPEN!!!!! After doing a bit of targeted research I found that this is not just a once in a lifetime occurrence, but something that can happen to anyone at any time. I am writing this with the most heavy of hearts, but I just wanted to pass along that bit of information. I know I read often, and had never heard of them failing in the open position. I only hope this can help someone else not have to go through what I have had to endure this week.

[timmy82]

I would've thought the PH controler should've stopped the crash?

[kjinfrek]

That was my thought too, except when the solenoid failed open it negated anything the controller told it. The solenoid is actually the part of the controller that stops the CO2 from flowing.

[lipadj46]

The controller does no good if the solenoid fails. That really sucks sorry for your loss.

[adapted]

Horrible. I lost a whole tank to runaway CO2 injection once...very sorry you lost so many great fish..

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Sometimes the least thing you could think of goes bad. Sorry to hear about your loss. I hope your plants are ok. Did anything survive?

[kjinfrek]

I do have 3 discus that are still alive, but they're in real rough shape and I'm not sure if they'll make it. Other than that, the plants are doing ok, but with the fish kill it killed my bacteria and now my parameters are all out of whack. Also I currently Have lights off trying to save the discus. But I'm not sure if I want to start back with fresh water, or switch to reef. Still too tore up to make that decision.

[rbarn]

It's not unheard of to run 2 solenoids in series to prevent this. The 1st is a closed solenoid that you control normally, the 2nd is normally open all the time and set to be closed if pH crashes too low from runaway injection. It is part of my mega install plan for sure. Also make sure to always use a quality solenoid and not the junk sold with off the shelf Milwakee all in one units.

[kjinfrek]

It was the Milwaukee one. A lesson learned the worst of ways. I would like to know how you run them series with the second always open... A second controller set at a lower PH?

[rbarn]

It was the Milwaukee one. A lesson learned the worst of ways. I would like to know how you run them series with the second always open... A second controller set at a lower PH?

Milwaukee is junk.

It's best to invest some money into a good Co2 system you will have to piece together yourself.

Victor dual stage regulator.
Swageloc needle valve
Burkert solenoids.
Lots of info on the planted tank forums on how to piece together a high end Co2 injection kit with industrial grade components.

Solenoid valves are either normally open or normally closed.
We use normally closed solenoid that is opened when powered up by the controller to inject Co2
After that you would install a normally open solenoid that is closed when powered up by a controller.

The 2nd one is there simply to catch the crash with it's controller set to a lower pH setting and will close the valve that is always open. You dont want to try and open and close 2 valves in series at the same time or you can get weird pressure pulses and hammering. So you leave the 2nd one open all the time, that only closes in an emergency. Hopefully it would never be needed, but you now know better than that.

Would be easier to make work with an aquarium controller like the Neptune Sys. Apex which could handle both solenoids. This is another reason I think every aquarium should have a controller. The Apex would have shut the 2nd solenoid, sounded an alarm, turned on an air pump or power head to increase degassing, and sent you a text and email message when this happened.

[rickztahone]

Milwaukee is junk.

It's best to invest some money into a good Co2 system you will have to piece together yourself.

Victor dual stage regulator.
Swageloc needle valve
Burkert solenoids.
Lots of info on the planted tank forums on how to piece together a high end Co2 injection kit with industrial grade components.

Solenoid valves are either normally open or normally closed.
We use normally closed solenoid that is opened when powered up by the controller to inject Co2
After that you would install a normally open solenoid that is closed when powered up by a controller.

The 2nd one is there simply to catch the crash with it's controller set to a lower pH setting and will close the valve that is always open. You dont want to try and open and close 2 valves in series at the same time or you can get weird pressure pulses and hammering. So you leave the 2nd one open all the time, that only closes in an emergency. Hopefully it would never be needed, but you now know better than that.

Would be easier to make work with an aquarium controller like the Neptune Sys. Apex which could handle both solenoids. This is another reason I think every aquarium should have a controller. The Apex would have shut the 2nd solenoid, sounded an alarm, turned on an air pump or power head to increase degassing, and sent you a text and email message when this happened.

Very sound advice. When doing fully planted tanks, you quickly realize how much money goes in to systems to put in fail safes. There are so many additional variables with these type of systems that it gets overly complicated at times. You have auto dosing, auto timers for everything, including co2, lights, pumps, that it really makes it difficult to eliminate everything as a potential failure. As with everything, anything that CAN fail, usually DOES.

It was unfortunate that you relied on the Milwaukee one because on TPT it is one that you hear many horror stories on, and unfortunately, you are now +1 to that category.

At this point it is too late to say what you could have done, but I can only say that I am sorry you went through such a loss.

[kjinfrek]

Rbarn, thank you. I actually did have the victor regulator and the swagelok needle valve. I now know there was a much better solenoid valve. A lesson I won't forget soon. If I do end up staying with the planted tank I will be investing in two very good solenoid valves and no matter what I will be looking into the apex controller. I had no idea they could do that much. So thanks again.

[pcsb23]

I never use pH controllers on planted tanks, more trouble than they are worth. Though I doubt it was the controller at fault. I only ever use solenoids that are normal closed type, so any failure they close. Really sorry to hear about the wipe out, sadly you are not alone and most if not all of us can share in that one.

[Whiskey]

I'm really sorry to hear that :(

I too have had this happen, in fact I have it happen about once every 8 months it seems. I think it's because junk gets in the mouth of the CO2 tank then makes it's way through the regulator and into the silanoid jamming it open.

I used to have even more problems when I had a bubble counter right next to the silanoid, the check valve would jam, water would go into the silanoid and cause it to stick.

To midigate the risk I do three things:
1. I crack the tank a little bit and let some CO2 hiss out before connecting it to blast out any dirt.
2. I set the CO2 injection rate so it almost never shuts off, this way if something sticks it will be a mild overdose not a catastrophic event.
3. I have plenty of surface agatation. This is good for oxignaiton, but it also makes it harder for CO2 to build up as the concentration gets higher.

The last one waists some CO2 but it is worth it and the fish seem healthier and seem to breath easier.

Hope this helps someone avoid a simalar event in the future!

Oh,.. I almost forgot. I used to also have an air pump that came on at night, the Aquacontroller would also turn it on if the PH got too low. I don't have it anymore becuase it broke, but that was a good idea too.

Whiskey

[SortSay2003]

It's not unheard of to run 2 solenoids in series to prevent this. The 1st is a closed solenoid that you control normally, the 2nd is normally open all the time and set to be closed if pH crashes too low from runaway injection. It is part of my mega install plan for sure. Also make sure to always use a quality solenoid and not the junk sold with off the shelf Milwakee all in one units.

First off. I am very sorry for your loss:(

Using two solenoids in parallel is a very good idea. Especially industrial type. They are mfg. to last 10's of millions of cycles. However, particles can enter into the plunger area (lifts open with electro-magnetic force when solenoid is energized, or closes with spring force when de-energized NC= Normally closed. Vice-versa for NO= Normally Open) and will keep it open w/o proper filtration or care during install.

What you might want to consider also: Use a 5micron or smaller inline filter, use a filter/regulator combo, use solenoid valves with built in strainer, flow meter (more expensive route), etc., to help prevent this.

Commercially mfg products are designed with COST in mind. Industrial products are designed with DURABILITY in mind. In most cases, they don't cost that much more if you know where to look for the source(s).

Here is a link of an example of a solenoid valve with a built in strainer: http://www.smcetech.com/CC_host/pages/custom/templates/smc_v2/prodtree_product_2.cfm?cc_nvl=((CC,SMC,V_M_US,1155 _US))&CFID=4838993&CFTOKEN=54407609&jsessionid=8430a1478d7347df68e435564d5019e642f4


Hope this help others in the future:)

[SortSay2003]

2. I set the CO2 injection rate so it almost never shuts off, this way if something sticks it will be a mild overdose not a catastrophic event. Whiskey

If your solenoid valve is rated for continous duty...meaning once you turn it on, you MUST turn it off at least once every 30days, you should have no problem with failure or heat build up on the coil. If it's not continous rated, then your solenoid will fail prematurely almost all of the time.

[Whiskey]

If your solenoid valve is rated for continous duty...meaning once you turn it on, you MUST turn it off at least once every 30days, you should have no problem with failure or heat build up on the coil. If it's not continous rated, then your solenoid will fail prematurely almost all of the time.

Well,.. it turns off when the lights turn off, so at least 12 hours per day it is off.

Whiskey