My Blue Diamond has weird spots... External parasite?

[I Am Aquarius]

Hi, i'm hoping to get some advice on what big blue has.. 3 days ago I noticed tiny spots on one side of his forehead, kind of pale, then one turned dark. Today he has a dark spot near the bottom of his body. No other discus or fish have this, but i'm certain I have an internal worm problem with most of them and my angel. White poo at different occasions and the angel seems to have had a bulging tummy for weeks now. All fish are super active and eat like piggies, none skinny. My 2 female german blue rams are fine, are plump and look like breeding tubes are showing. 90 gal 6 month planted tank, 30% water changes every 3-4 days using aged and treated water. All parameters are perfect and stable. 0 amm, 0 nitrites, 15 ppm nitrates. Hard water and ph of 7-7.2 is what I have in my area and have adopted the belief that stability is more important than soft and acidic tampering that I can't maintain stress free without an RO system. Anyway, after today's WC I treated the tank with Tetra Parasite Guard and fed their bloodworms soaked in garlic guard, and 5:1 focus/metro mix. Am I ok? I was going to use prazi pro that I have but my LFS suggested tetra parasite guard instead since the parasites on big blue are lisited on the box as a treatment for black spots on body of fish. Please tell me what you think this is, I can't lose my big blue:( or any others for that matter.
Thanks, Kathryn

[OC Discus]

Pictures aren't really clear. Some spots are normal- natural pigmentation issues. Does one spot have what looks like a worm protruding from it?

I'm not an expert on disease and medication. It is best to identify the parasite before adding any medication. Larger water changes will likely help. It's hard to treat with meds in a planted tank. Its also hard to eradicate parasites in a planted tank. You could treat the fish in a hospital tank only to return him to an infested tank to get re-infected.

Large water changes (80%) will remove more of the parasites at various stages of growth and help the fish develop a stronger resistence to them. UV sterilization or a diatom filter might be options for you to consider.

[Keith Perkins]

I'm thinking your local fish store wanted to sell you something, of course that's usually my first thought. I could be wrong, but those look like bite marks to me. Perhaps your fish are approaching spawning age and it's the result of pairing off fighting. If that's all it is plentiful WCs alone likely will take care of it, of course if it is fighting and it continues more marks are going to show up.

[I Am Aquarius]

Thank you OC Discus so much for the input:) I'm going to try to get a clearer pic today, he's an active guy lol... But yes, i'd agree it looks like two prongs sticking out like a v shape on a couple spots, looks like lice maybe? Eww, I'm grossed out and the only new thing added in the last week are 2 plants. I've added the meds and will do a big water change after 48 hours. I know bare bottom is best in terms of water quality but 1) I have trouble believing the fish are happy in a glass box, like saying if humans live in a sterile room with nothing in it we'll be free of disease but limited in every way, and 2) the aquarium is a showpiece in my house and aesthetically more pleasing to view a more natural environment.
Your suggestion about diatom filter and uv sterilizer is excellent, thank you! I've heard of them but didn't know what exactly they do or are used for. I looked both up and wow, i'm convinced I could use one or both? I'm not bothered with algae, my bristlenoses do an awesome job in there... But other benefits are great it looks like. I'm not sure which to buy... Diatom would clean it up fast, uv would kill fast. I'm running 2 eheim 2217s with a hydro rotating water deflector on each output to keep it calmer in there. The spraybars created a tsunami with even one attached. Again, thank you:) but what do you suggest, diatom or uv? Or both?
Regards,
Kathryn

[I Am Aquarius]

And thank you CozyKeith, it's interesting you mention pairing or fighting.. He's been scrapping with melon head for about a month now, melon heads white face has shown red around his/her mouth a few times from lip locking with someone, i'm gonna say big blue because they seem to hang around each other then wag their tails at each other and spar a bit. They're peaceful most of the time though so i'm not concerned about bullying. Melonhead is smaller but definitely holds her/his own. Bite marks could very well be, but I need to make sure those prong things were the camera distorting and not a parasite of some sort... My LFS guy actually talks me out of things to buy all the time lol, he just had good results with his discus using tetra he said. He thought I was nuts buying a second 2217, but that's just me, i've always over filtered and had great, stable aquariums. (Except now! Grr) anyway, i'm gonna keep an eye on them and try to get better pics. Thanks again! Cheers, Kathryn

[OC Discus]

Kathryn,

I've never used a diatom filter and they seem to be a thing of the past. I know enough about uv to say to be effective against parasites you would need a high water turnover rate to eliminate free swimming hatchlings and a high wattage sterilizer to kill at a such a high flow rate. The data is very complex to me, but you have to factor in several things to get the right system:

1) Tank Size
2) Flow Rate- Gallons per hour
3) Wattage- 40 watts for 55 gallon. More for 90 gallon
4) Dwell Time- Time required to kill parasites- Longer dwell time=more killing power, but slower flow cannot keep up with parasite multiplication. So, I'm guessing you will need 75 watts or more with a pump that turns your water over 3-4 times per hour.

You could PM Rick ncogneto for specific advice. He seems to have a grip on the whole concept, though he doesn't often comment on planted tanks.

Best Wishes

[I Am Aquarius]

Hi OC, diatom filters do look like things of the past, but not because they weren't amazing, I read "manufacturer issues." Too bad, cause they look like they used to be awesome, still can get but difficult and doe defects with current manufacturer, not like they used to be made so to speak. Tbh, uv sounds kind of tough for me to wrap my head around right now, like i'm messing with stuff I don't understand completely. Thanks for the info, i'll look into it further and consider it once I understand it better. I'm going to dose the tetra again tomorrow as a final treatment for fish lice and hope it fixes things... I noticed today my big ram has a lesion on her side near her tail and a dark reddish patch in front of her black spot same side:( sensitive fish, I'm hoping she'll survive this:(
Thank you!��

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I hope that worked, taken today, maybe a bit clearer?

[I Am Aquarius]

Oh and you're seeing metro/focus in the water after a feeding today, normally clear:)

[OC Discus]

Your tank looks really nice. Just be advised that plants introduce living organisms into the water that are parasitic to the fish. Maybe the meds will work. Please note if any of the plants start dying it would be advisable to remove them immediately, as dying plants can further degrade your water quality.

Some of the members here with long term planted tanks are not commenting much lately, but frequent large water changes to remove parasites and a separate hospital tank for treatment with meds are two important keys to their success. There is a huge thread called "The forum's position on planted tanks". If you haven't read it it would be worth a read.

The fish doesn't appear to be in poor health or imminent danger. Some of the spots appear to be the base color of the fish showing through. Are you able to tell if the spots actually have something growing from them?

Investing in a good pump to quickly move large quantities of water would be a good next step. Don't stir up the substrate, but vacuum as close to it as possible.

[pcsb23]

... Just be advised that plants introduce living organisms into the water that are parasitic to the fish. ...Bit of a bold all sweeping statement. I'd be very interested in the real evidence to support such a statement. It is statements such as this which are harmful to the hobby as a whole, it is posted as a statement of fact and the only conclusion one can draw from reading it is that all plants always introduce pathogens - which is clearly nonsense.

On a more pragmatic note, there is a possibility that adding plants to an existing setup could provide a vector for some parasites. In my experience it is rare, and whilst it can never be discounted it should always be kept in perspective.

I will agree that treating in a planted tank is more challenging, it is far better ime/o to use a bare tank for treatments.

@ Kathryn, your conclusion or diagnosis in your first post is interesting ... I'm not entirely sure it is correct. The marks on the BD do not look like those caused by a parasite as such, nor do they look as though they are a parasite. Your first post is somewhat garbled (sorry) so maybe I have missed where you actually identified what these parasites are.

My opinion fwiw is that damage to the DB is likely to be environmental rather than a pathogen, I wouldn't have treated and would be looking to it's diet and how the tank is maintained.

As for the ram, ime rams don't tolerate meds well, so maybe they have caused this issue.

[OC Discus]

Paul

You are right. I think all fish and plants do introduce new organisms into the system, but they don't all become problematic especially with proper quarantine. I should have said they introduce organisms that "potentially " can be problematic.


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[I Am Aquarius]

Ok, thanks Paul, i'll work on my garble lol:p seriously though, it's tough to diagnose w/o taking fish out and examining under a microscope, or being a trained vet in this area:( my diagnosis was purely from pics and seeing prongs, both LFS guys also said it looks like a parasite (lice?). Pics on the internet further confirmed my suspicions. Big Blues skin has been perfect since I got him 3 months ago, and diet has been hikari bw frozen daily, brine shrimp hikari frozen occasionally, omega one flake, cobalt myasis flake, hikari discus pellets, all high quality food I think? Water quality has been great, faithful to water changes. Since he's not acting sick, parasites are initially somewhat minimally bothersome until they infest further. So what could it be then? Food and environment you suggest, but ime all is good(aside from internal worms i'm treating) and, I was going to treat a second time today... Now i'm not sure if I should:(

Kathryn
Ps, these are pics I found when searching fish lice that looked similar, but i'm certainly no expert. This is not fun, but thanks for your help

[pcsb23]

Didn't mean any offence re the garbled bit - posting in one paragraph makes reading it harder certainly for my old eyes.

What is a focus/metro mix btw? never heard of that before ...

It is tough to diagnose for sure, even tougher when trying to do it on the web, that is why structured information helps. I do take my fish out, and I do take scrapings and I do examine those under a scope. I figured that the cost of a scope being less than the cost of a decent quality adult discus it was daft not to learn the skills, but I appreciate not everyone sees it that way.

Lice move. From your pics, these don't. You would also be able to see most lice clearly with the naked eye and be able to distinguish them. Not sure 30% w/c every 3 to 4 days is necessarily adequate either, nor are water changes alone all that is involved. Now it may be the lice have decided to stay put and feed, but they are really quite rare in discus.

You mention internal worms, again I'm not sure how you know this or what has caused you to believe this. I most likely have missed that bit. But if you suspect worms then they need to be treated with a worming product, metro is not a such a product. Metro is good for flagellates.

If it is tape worm then one or two treatments with prazinquantel will resolve and you will see dead worms being expelled. If it is round worms (nematodes) then you need something like levamisole or flubendazole to deal with it (there are other meds too). You can see evidence of nematodes in the fishes poop when using a scope - you can also sometimes see flagellates there too.

If it is lice then the Tetra parasite guard may well work as it contains an insecticide. If the fish have/had tapeworm then you should have seen evidence by now too, if you haven't we can reasonably safely assume they don't have tapeworms. I'm not a fan of combined meds as most rarely have the therapeutic dosage of each med in the standard dose.

Having re-read your OP the occasional white poop could be anything from diet through to stress, it could be caused by flagellates, worms (usually round worms) or a bacterial infection too.

If this was my fish I'd up the water changes a little and look to feed it a diet with higher mineral content, make sure any flake and granular food isn't stale - the vitamins decay for want of a better way of putting it.

Have you added any new fish or anything to the tank recently? How long has the BD been in this tank? I'm trying to determine if something has been introduced or if it is just a case of a small improvement in care needed.

[I Am Aquarius]

Hey Paul, jokes, no offence! I likely jam too much info into these posts and don't keep it clear enough.

Anyway, I will up the water changes, no harm there for sure:) I know what you mean about mixed formula meds, I've always treated my children symptomatically and should do the same with my fish too! I have a lot to learn for sure, but I learned that since metro doesn't dissolve in water very well, you can bind it with focus by seachem,soaked in garlic guard and improves the flavor.

I have seen and have pics of white poo from a lot of my fish. I would have used Prazi pro but the spots on my BD made me go with Tetra since it does the external parasites as well(prazi only says external gill flukes). I don't know if that's smart but i've done it, so was going to second dose the tetra parasite guard and in two days see if those dark spots are gone telling me it worked and the parasite is dead. I was then going to do Prazi pro for two days following to expel any other worms and then be done with it. Is that reasonable? I've read so many posts where people don't medicate enough and their problem never goes away, wiping out their fish slowly over time.

No new fish for me, just two plants a week ago. I'm done with no QT! Anything new will be quarantined in my 20 gallon down my basement from now on! Camellanus worms don't look like an issue in my tank, levamisole isn't available in Canada but would drive over the border to get it in the US if I have to at any point. I think tapeworm, I will try to add pictures but I'm not good at that part, thumbnails seem difficult to view. Thanks again:)

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[I Am Aquarius]

Btw those we're taken over a couple months, different fish, and have seen other non discus fish poo white stringy stuff here and there, sorry this is a gross subject, but I really appreciate any input and advice:) cheers to fish poo lol:D

[I Am Aquarius]

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Maybe these help, that zoomed in one looks like a fish lice shape to me, sorry can't get clearer. That's the one under his pectoral fin, you can see it in the pic of his whole body.


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[nc0gnet0]

I have never had fish lice before, but I am pretty sure that is just a spot of darker pigmentation on the fish and nothing to worry about.

[OC Discus]

[I


MG]http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t651/OCDiscus/Hi-bodyBulldogBlueDiamond_zps8331ebe6.jpg (http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/OCDiscus/media/Hi-bodyBulldogBlueDiamond_zps8331ebe6.jpg.html)[/IMG]


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Rick,

Forgive me if this is a dumb question(s), but I think you know the answer. Above are two pictures of Blue Diamonds. One is a group in a Forrest Shipment that show a brown pigmentation over most of the body. The other is a solid blue with little to no pigmentation. Question: What is the base color of the blue diamond? Is the brown pigmentation a form of the stress bars in wild discus? And is the brown more genetic in some fish and less in others?

The the op fish seems to have hints of the brown pigmentation, spots, as if there is a brown base color from a cross in breeding.

Last question. Is it normal for BD to fluctuate between the two colors in the pictures above- solid blue to brown base. Is it necessarily a sign of illness when the brown comes through, or can it just be a sign of mood, stress, or something else.

Anyone else can feel free to comment as well.



I have never had fish lice before, but I am pretty sure that is just a spot of darker pigmentation on the fish and nothing to worry about.

[OC Discus]

For the poster, IME Blue Diamonds seem to show "normal" spots more than almost any other color.

[Rudustin]

I have several blue diamonds. They spar with each other quite a lot. They are missing scales sometimes and the photos of your blue diamond look exactly the same as my blue diamonds spots as well. I don't worry about mine at all because my fish are healthy and do battle especially at feeding time. I panicked the first time I saw scales missing on my blues but after a while I realized why. Best of luck and I certainly hope that is all that is worrying you about your discus. Rufus

[nc0gnet0]

OC,

Post your question in another thread and I will be happy to give you my opinion, but I think a lot of what your seeing has more to do with lighting and camera flash than anything.

[OC Discus]

Ok. Thanks


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[I Am Aquarius]

:oThanks for all the input. Most everyone who's responded here doesn't think it's a parasite... Interesting, and I obviously value all your opinions since you have tons of experience and knowledge with discus and aquariums in general:).

I did dose again (2nd) only because i'd already done one dose and was half way there, and figured i'd finish to count out that possibility plus they're getting dewormed at the same time ..

I found out that fish lice can come from ponds. They also lay their eggs on hard surfaces and plants, not their host. If it does turn out to be a parasite, I will conclude it definitely came in on the plants from a couple weeks ago esp because I know that fish store buys plants from their customers. It's pond season here!!

However, future lesson for me is to definitely check with people in this forum to help me make a diagnosis and decision first!! Much appreciated!:D btw I will post an update on this "possible" parasite issue as I get a better idea what's going on. Big blue's large dark grey spot on his forehead looks like it's fading now, the one by his pectoral fin looks the same though, with a smaller one beside it now:/ We'll see...
Regards,
Kathryn

[I Am Aquarius]

Ok, please help!! These black spots are migrating!! They are now on/around big blues dorsal fin:(
I've taken more pics.. Please look/zoom in near the top of his dorsal, do I see 2 eyes and a tail?

The last one is of little blue (not sure what kind he is) they are on him too! Now i'm worried. If this is pigment, why on both fish all of a sudden?

2nd treatment of tetra parasite guard went in last evening and i'm supposed to be removing it tomorrow with carbon after a big water change.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Kathrynhttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/qepugu6u.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/tamu7y8e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/te4ehu5u.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/upy5a8e4.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/07/mureva9a.jpg


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[nc0gnet0]

My Blue Diamond has weird spots... External parasite?

No, I don't think so. Perhaps these spots are a reaction to a water condition, but I am pretty certain they are not the result of a parasite. If your steadfast in your assessment they are indeed a parasite, why not pull a fish and look at a spot with a magnifying glass?

[I Am Aquarius]

Thanks, you are likely correct. It is still a bit of a mystery to me since my water conditions have been so stable. But I'm done the treatment now, WC and carbon's in. Spots are clearing, fish look great, active and healthy. Can't pull a fish (not yet anyways), i'm not that brave, and am scared i'd hurt the fish:(
All is good, thanks for the help:)