Substrate question

[viper0397]

Hello all! I have a question about substrate. I have a 90 gallon tank with 8 discus in it. I always start with juveniles. I also keep 10 rasbora hets, 4 rummynose, 6 cory cats, and 1 electric blue ram as well as 1 balloon ram in there. The only filtration I have in this tank now are sponge filters.

It was a planted tank with lots of live plants. Over time I have learned that it is not good to grow out discus in a planted tank. I also had an aquatop cf500-uv for a filter in there. I determined that was too much current so I removed it and used just the sponge filters that were in there already. I also have removed all the plants in there and have just a sand bottom. I have turned my normal temp from 84 to 82 degrees Fahrenheit. I have been losing some discus I believe due to bacterial or intestinal parasites.

My question is should I remove my sand and just run a bare bottom tank, and if so as I am removing the sand substrate should I temporarily remove my discus while I am doing this. I think if I do remove all the sand I will do a 50% water change right away and then do 20% daily for a week and then go back to my normal 20% every other day routine.d

Any advice on this matter would be much appreciated!!

Thank you in advance!

Jeff

[fishman667]

I would have to say leave the discus in the tank but only do a third of your tank, within a 3 day period. BB would help you maintain your water easier , i would do it that way.

[John_Nicholson]

I would suggest siphoning out the sand. You fish will do better but you will need to either paint the bottom of the tank or tape some paper under there. Otherwise the fish will sometimes try to swim through the bottom.

-john

[viper0397]

I would suggest siphoning out the sand. You fish will do better but you will need to either paint the bottom of the tank or tape some paper under there. Otherwise the fish will sometimes try to swim through the bottom.

-john

I was thinking about siphoning. And I was planning on taping black paper to the bottom of the tank.
Thank you!!

[viper0397]

I would have to say leave the discus in the tank but only do a third of your tank, within a 3 day period. BB would help you maintain your water easier , i would do it that way.

Good advice!
Thank you!!

[nc0gnet0]

Hello all! I have a question about substrate. I have a 90 gallon tank with 8 discus in it. I always start with juveniles. I also keep 10 rasbora hets, 4 rummynose, 6 cory cats, and 1 electric blue ram as well as 1 balloon ram in there. The only filtration I have in this tank now are sponge filters.

This sounds ok for a display tank but is less than optimal for juvies IMO. When you say juvies, can you tell us what size your typically working with?


It was a planted tank with lots of live plants. Over time I have learned that it is not good to grow out discus in a planted tank. I also had an aquatop cf500-uv for a filter in there. I determined that was too much current so I removed it and used just the sponge filters that were in there already. I also have removed all the plants in there and have just a sand bottom. I have turned my normal temp from 84 to 82 degrees Fahrenheit. I have been losing some discus I believe due to bacterial or intestinal parasites.

My question is should I remove my sand and just run a bare bottom tank, and if so as I am removing the sand substrate should I temporarily remove my discus while I am doing this. I think if I do remove all the sand I will do a 50% water change right away and then do 20% daily for a week and then go back to my normal 20% every other day routine.d

the current can be diffused by the use of a surface mounted spray bar, but I am not a big fan of the canister filters with internal UV's, as the wattage of these Uv's make them little more than a toy.

I agree with John, barebottom is better, especially for growouts, sand could be used, however it is just that much more work to maintain. You really should consider doing at least 50% daily water changes until your juvies are adults, and then if you want you can cut back a bit (depending on stocking levels. No discus was ever harmed by too much fresh water, however many a good discus has been destroy by bad water.

[viper0397]

When I purchase my discus they are usually between 2 to 2.5 inch in diameter. I think I am going to remove the sand. Most of my discus are now 3 to 4.5 inch in diameter. Hopefully I am posting enough threads that I can get some pictures up in here. I am too new right now though.

[nc0gnet0]

When I purchase my discus they are usually between 2 to 2.5 inch in diameter. I think I am going to remove the sand. Most of my discus are now 3 to 4.5 inch in diameter. Hopefully I am posting enough threads that I can get some pictures up in here. I am too new right now though.

Blue fish gets their discus from Hans, albeit at a very small size. If you get them soon enough you should be ok, trouble is, a lot of them sit in their gravel bottom tanks for a month or so, don't get fed often enough, and after a time end up stunted. This is not because of bad stock, rather bad handling.

[OC Discus]

As one who removed the substrate with fish in the tank, I would recommend placing them in a container of tank water before removing the sand. A 5 gallon bucket to a 25 gallon tote should do fine. Siphon tank water into the container. Ideally, an air stone and heater in the holding tank. Quickly remove the rest of the water and all of the substrate, wiping down the sides and bottom before re-filling with warm treated water. Then return the fish to their home

The reason I recommend this is that some of my fish succumbed to a variety of parasites immediately after removing the substrate with them in the tank with them in it. I think it is better not to expose them to all the junk that will be stirred up when you remove the sand.

I've experienced discus to be very hearty when netting, handling, and placing in a holding tank.

Also, larger water changes are much better than small ones. Small periodic changes actually remove very little waste from the water. Two 75% water changes a week will do more good that daily 20% water changes.

[farebox]

A few months ago I removed all the sand from an 125g by siphoning it out without removing my fish, negative effect. Just take you time not to stir the sand up.


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[OC Discus]

What type of siphon do you use to siphon out sand?

[viper0397]

A few months ago I removed all the sand from an 125g by siphoning it out without removing my fish, negative effect. Just take you time not to stir the sand up.


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What do you mean by negative effect? Was there or was there not a negative effect?


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[viper0397]

What type of siphon do you use to siphon out sand?

I used my python gravel vac. It is the largest one they sell.

I did not take my fish out but was careful as far as making sure the sand went through the siphon. I did not get it all out but got out a little less than half of it out. I stopped because I had drained half of the water in the meantime. I was going to accomplish it in stages.

Hopefully there will be no negative affect. Wish me luck!


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[farebox]

I used just the hose from an python into an five gallon bucket, once the bucket filled up, emptied on grass in the backyard. What I meant negative effect was that the fish were all okay.


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[MendoMan]

I removed my substrate without moving my and had no problems at all, don't over think it and make it harder than it is. I used a piece of 1" water pipe with an elbow on top and a 3/4" hose barb on the elbow. On the barb I used a piece of 3/4" garden hose. I didn't glue any of the fittings, just pushed them together. With a hose nearly the same size as the pipe it will really pull the sand or gravel fast.

[viper0397]

I used just the hose from an python into an five gallon bucket, once the bucket filled up, emptied on grass in the backyard. What I meant negative effect was that the fish were all okay.


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Cool that is exactly what I did. Also I am glad to hear that everything turned out okay. That relaxes me a little bit. lol.


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[viper0397]

I removed my substrate without moving my and had no problems at all, don't over think it and make it harder than it is. I used a piece of 1" water pipe with an elbow on top and a 3/4" hose barb on the elbow. On the barb I used a piece of 3/4" garden hose. I didn't glue any of the fittings, just pushed them together. With a hose nearly the same size as the pipe it will really pull the sand or gravel fast.

That is a great idea!!


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[viper0397]

Well I finished removing all my substrate today. I had a 30 gallon tote a 20 gallon tote and a spare 5 gallon bucket so I filled all of them and put all my fish in the 30 gallon tote. I put my heater and an air bubbler in there and went to town on the substrate.

I then cleaned my heaters wiped down all my glass cleaned my driftwood (which had some sort of white hard things attached to it the size of a ball point in a pen). I found some of these things on my aquaclear power head attachment. I can post some pictures if you want. Then I reassembled my aquarium filled it with my saved water moved in my fish and finished filling it.

Everything seemed to be okay but I have 2 discus that started freaking out darting recklessly all over the tank. They both have a cloudy eye only on one side but I think they might have hit their eye while darting around.


I am hoping it is just from all the activity today and they will calm down. It did seem to happen after I added salt. I did that because I thought salt was a stress reliever. Apparently I was wrong. Something else to mention about the weird behavior could be related to a sunsun uv light I had in there for a very short period then I saw online that the uv light burns the plastic surrounding it and creates a toxin allegedly from a video I seen on YouTube. I know you can not believe everything you see online, but I did get the black residue out if my uv lamp like they said.

Anyway the real point is I got the substrate out and thoroughly cleaned everything.


Thank you very much everyone for all the advice!!!!

Jeff H.


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[nc0gnet0]

When you removed the substrate did you then paint the bottom of the tank or place a backing on it? Fish seem to freak out when it is just left clear.

[viper0397]

I did not right away. I went to the store and bought black paper shortly after the episode though so now it is all covered with black paper. Now the 2 that were freaking out are hiding. I thought at first one of them might perish because it was lying on its side but that one is upright now.


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[MendoMan]

My tank is sitting on a wooden cabinet with no paint or paper under the tank and the bare bottom doesn't bother the fish at all.

[viper0397]

My tank is sitting on a wooden cabinet with no paint or paper under the tank and the bare bottom doesn't bother the fish at all.

Well I already put it there. LoL. Maybe the fish like it maybe they don't. Not sure. But I have a metal stand with nothing underneath it and my poor discus have always had something underneath them so maybe they freaked out because of that. Don't really know.

Thank you though!


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[nc0gnet0]

Well I already put it there. LoL. Maybe the fish like it maybe they don't. Not sure. But I have a metal stand with nothing underneath it and my poor discus have always had something underneath them so maybe they freaked out because of that. Don't really know.

Thank you though!


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I am sure that was part of the problem the other part was the bucket. I don't think salt was necessary, I would have just opted to leave the lights off. As long as you didn't overdue the salt, it shouldn't be a problem, just no need to replace it when you do water changes tomorrow :)

[viper0397]

I am sure that was part of the problem the other part was the bucket. I don't think salt was necessary, I would have just opted to leave the lights off. As long as you didn't overdue the salt, it shouldn't be a problem, just no need to replace it when you do water changes tomorrow :)

When I use salt I use only half the recommended dose which is 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons. And I did leave the light off for them.

Thank you very much Rick!!


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[OC Discus]

Keep a daily check on ammonia until you are sure its not spiking.


Well I finished removing all my substrate today. I had a 30 gallon tote a 20 gallon tote and a spare 5 gallon bucket so I filled all of them and put all my fish in the 30 gallon tote. I put my heater and an air bubbler in there and went to town on the substrate.

I then cleaned my heaters wiped down all my glass cleaned my driftwood (which had some sort of white hard things attached to it the size of a ball point in a pen). I found some of these things on my aquaclear power head attachment. I can post some pictures if you want. Then I reassembled my aquarium filled it with my saved water moved in my fish and finished filling it.

Everything seemed to be okay but I have 2 discus that started freaking out darting recklessly all over the tank. They both have a cloudy eye only on one side but I think they might have hit their eye while darting around.


I am hoping it is just from all the activity today and they will calm down. It did seem to happen after I added salt. I did that because I thought salt was a stress reliever. Apparently I was wrong. Something else to mention about the weird behavior could be related to a sunsun uv light I had in there for a very short period then I saw online that the uv light burns the plastic surrounding it and creates a toxin allegedly from a video I seen on YouTube. I know you can not believe everything you see online, but I did get the black residue out if my uv lamp like they said.

Anyway the real point is I got the substrate out and thoroughly cleaned everything.


Thank you very much everyone for all the advice!!!!

Jeff H.


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[viper0397]

Keep a daily check on ammonia until you are sure its not spiking.

Thanks I will. This tank is established and has been running for 1 1/2 years. I do also keep a seachem ammonia alert in there and once a week do an ammonia check.


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[OC Discus]

I don't know what Rick meant by part of the problem being the bucket. I think you just put water in the bucket didn't you?

Being a schooling fish, darting is one of their defense mechanisms when they get startled. Sudden and unusual movements around the tank can startle them, especially until they get used to their surroundings. The whole process of moving them and removing the substrate would have them on alert.

You can always slide something under the tank the next time you do a large water change. Measure the length and width of the top and cut a piece of cardboard or something else to fit. Then, when the tank is drained, you can easily tilt it back and slide something under it.

I see some potential problems down the road with your setup that I had when I started with a community tank with substrate. Different strains of fish from different sources (and plants) harbor pathogens that most tank raised discus have not been exposed to. Once parasites get established in a tank, they can be hard to eradicate completely, especially with plants and substrate.

The healthiest move I ever made with my discus was setting up a sterilized hospital tank, doing a salt dip for parasites, moving the fish to the sterilized tank, then removing everything from the main tank and sterilizing it. I did daily salt dips, moving the fish back and forth between the tanks daily until all signs of the parasites were gone. Each tank was sterilized again when the fish were removed for the salt dip and they went into a clean sterilized tank. After three days, all traces of parasites were gone and the fish were placed in their sterilized display tank- bare bottom with no other tank mates.

I am not saying you are at the point where you need to do this. I just wanted to eliminate every possible source of infection, so I removed all the other fish- rams, cardinals, coreys... The plus side is the tank is much easier to maintain, there has not been a trace of disease or parasites in about 6 months, and the discus are actually growing faster and fill the bio load of the tank without tank mates.

Others will disagree on this topic- there is a long thread titled "the forum's position on planted tanks". But, if you continue to lose fish, and parasites are visible and not responding to treatment, it is a good option.

Good luck.

[nc0gnet0]

I don't know what Rick meant by part of the problem being the bucket. I think you just put water in the bucket didn't you?

No need to over-analyze here, simply meant they got scared.

[OC Discus]

Ok. That's what analytical minds do. Analyze...:)


No need to over-analyze here, simply meant they got scared.

[viper0397]

I don't know if this is going to work but this is what my tank looks like now.829208292182922

[viper0397]

I don't know what Rick meant by part of the problem being the bucket. I think you just put water in the bucket didn't you?

Being a schooling fish, darting is one of their defense mechanisms when they get startled. Sudden and unusual movements around the tank can startle them, especially until they get used to their surroundings. The whole process of moving them and removing the substrate would have them on alert.

You can always slide something under the tank the next time you do a large water change. Measure the length and width of the top and cut a piece of cardboard or something else to fit. Then, when the tank is drained, you can easily tilt it back and slide something under it.

I see some potential problems down the road with your setup that I had when I started with a community tank with substrate. Different strains of fish from different sources (and plants) harbor pathogens that most tank raised discus have not been exposed to. Once parasites get established in a tank, they can be hard to eradicate completely, especially with plants and substrate.

The healthiest move I ever made with my discus was setting up a sterilized hospital tank, doing a salt dip for parasites, moving the fish to the sterilized tank, then removing everything from the main tank and sterilizing it. I did daily salt dips, moving the fish back and forth between the tanks daily until all signs of the parasites were gone. Each tank was sterilized again when the fish were removed for the salt dip and they went into a clean sterilized tank. After three days, all traces of parasites were gone and the fish were placed in their sterilized display tank- bare bottom with no other tank mates.

I did just put water in my buckets from the current tank and I have put black cardboard under the tank, and I don't have any spare tanks to quarantine and salt dip in so I am going to have to say a little prayer.

Thank you!

[OC Discus]

Im a believer in prayer