rickztahone
07-15-2014, 09:01 PM
I came across a very cool video on YouTube about wild Altums studied in the wild (link to video: Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyCfska-WvU)). I checked the description of the video and they have a website, so I visited the website which is: Wildfishaquarium.com (http://wildfishaquarium.com/), but unfortunately it is all in spanish. However, I read spanish and I found the information very well done and interesting. One article in particular stood out to me, which of course is what the title states here, it's about the "whirling disease". It caught my attention because I remember Matt going through this problem.
I'll link the article here: "A problem called "F1", "Turmix" or "Tornado sickness" or "Whirling Disease" " (http://wildfishaquarium.com/f1-turmix/)
Here is a google translation of the whole article. Keep in mind, following a full blown translation can be difficult because it will try to translate literal word for word, but the essense of the piece is there. Keep in mind that when it translates "Tornado Disease" it translates it to read "Disease of the Tournament" which is obviously not translated correctly.
Without further ado, here is the translation:
"A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"
A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"
First of all and in these cases it is essential, I want to clarify that I am not a scientist to corroborate the subject matter but I could be watching and learning certain things with over the years.
I am simply passionate about tropical fish and as such, a curious constant of these wonderful animals.
If you are reading this because your fish are turning and doing crazy races against all the elements that have on the road (or ever have). Well, I think these lines I will help.
F1's disease, Turmix Illness Tournament or Whirling Disease in fish Discs is one of many problems that arise when we want to start with a staff, in my case has always happened to me wild Discus (as I think are much more likely than hybrids), but the question is: what affects us, is actually this disease?
An important clarification:
One important thing is to make it clear that only expose my unscientific thinking but with many hours of observation that lead me to think that the disease Tournament has NOTHING to do with these attacks in the Discus fish
With regard to the meaning of "F1" to this problem, because in the forums speaking the name of the category Formula 1 racing was derived due to the high speed take fish during turns on an imaginary axis and during the race taking Discus sweeping away everything you have on the road including the aquarium glass.
Let's review first tournament disease:
Whirling disease Tournament or Disease:
The disease Tournament is caused by a myxosporideo protozoan parasite, "Myxoxoma cerebralis" which comes in the form of spores to fish staying within it, through tissues to reach the cartilage by this is that when a fish is sick is very likely that other fish are also (first difference with what happens to our Discus, since often these affected one individual turning movements and the others are no problem and never get to show symptoms) .
Another important point is that the disease Tournament is affecting cold water fish, so it is as well known in Pscicultura trout by disasters in nature also as it was in Montana USA down record 90% of trout Arco Iris in the Madison river. Also much affects Cyprinids such as tents and Carasiuss (when cold water is another reason to think hard affect Discus).
The symptoms of this disease is that fish swim in circles to death (do quick runs into walls or objects but swimming is the problem, another reason to distrust! Since discus swimming in circles and out QUICKLY fired at full speed without worrying about what you have before).
Second fish having the disease Tournament or "Whirling Disease" exhibit skeletal deformities (live long enough to experience these symptoms when discus "last" only 24 hours., Or 48 h. In the best ).
Lifecycle Myxoxoma cerebralis
A very good thing to know is the cycle of the disease:
(From page www.flyfishing-argentina.com) written by the prestigious Mr. Silvia Ortubay.
The life cycle of Myxobolus cerebralis is complex and involves two hosts (an aquatic worm and a fish) and produces two very different types of spores. A guy up the spores that develop on infected fish called myxospores. These are released to the environment after the death and decomposition of the fish that contained or feces of infected fish-eating predators (birds, other fish, mammals). According to Russian researchers the myxospores can remain viable for more than 30 years in the dried mud. They are resistant to freezing (-20 ° C remained viable), to a variety of chemical treatments and gastric juices of the piscivorous animals. The spores are less resistant to heat. (for another against the disease in the discus)
The parasite's life cycle continues when these myxospores are ingested by Tubifex tubifex worm a water tolerant polluted waters. The parasite gut worm affects approximately 3 months and begins to produce a different type of spore, the triactinomyxon, which is the infective stage for trout. This infective form survives only a few days and can be released from infected tubifícidos up to a year after infection. Transmission of the disease occurs when the fish infected with triactinomyxon worms are ingested by trout or when tubifícidos release the causal agent in susceptible fish waters. Once the parasite in the fish begins to divide and increase their number while moving through the epidermis, dermis, until the cartilage which actively feeds. Spore formation increases with temperature and occurs prior to the onset of symptoms of the disease, including 4-5 months after infection. (Our discus because I never saw a tubifex or had contact with water or other fish if fed Tubifex, begin to rotate and hit the glass??)
For all this I thought my discus fish had never contracted the disease and began to wonder more.
• Why which begins with First Spins on an axis is USUALLY the Alfa or fish that eats more?
• Why the faster starting with Giros was when it came to Wild Discus?
• Why the more water changes did it felt was worse?
• Why the more pure (salt) was water, ie containing less salt, the fish were more likely to turn?
• And finally in wild, because at the time that seemed super adapted not afraid of anything and feeding impressively, I was the next day with fish turning and crashing against the glass?
These responses led me to think that it was for nothing Myxoxoma cerebralis.
When I reviewed the symptoms and how to cure this terrible "disease" I realized it is not a disease but is closely linked to an INTERNAL INTOXICATION animal.
Symptoms of internal poisoning:
The first thing is when we talk about this problem is that the fish after feeding for days abundantly displayed with their fully erect fins and bars very pronounced stress is usually fish at that time is the dominant or a of the key, he looks nervous and quite scary, so that the mere presence of the aquarist (which should be used) quickly seek refuge.
Classic image of a S. heckel to start attacks. Note the dark eye and bristling fins.
The second step and a "degree" advanced the problem is that the movements of the fish looking to stay perpendicular to the ground which is very complicated and it tends to go sideways.
Finally the fish starts spinning in circles at high speed like a whirlwind to fly out against everything that this later including crystals. The blow is such as to make the fish dies or is completely knocked out.
These movements are constantly and without a specific time between attacks occur.
But something that a lot of attention is that USUALLY the fish eating more food and better adapted this to our eyes is the beginning with the problem and usually say this because many times those who are the most adapted, which also have much of the food in the stomach, can be victims.
Causes of the attacks:
The first thing to keep in mind that these symptoms do not appear are the following points.
• Something important (for me) are the salts dissolved in the water. Something very common in wild fish is when we use pure RO water, it has to be replenished with discus salts or mixture of water mains, many fans used pure discus Osmosis and know that this water in its purest form is not gives good results is always important to maintain a conductivity of more than 300us. At least!. We have explained that water without salt has many stability problems PH, few bacteria, etc..
• Another determining factor as above and the amount of food. We know that Discus fish is a glutton and eat all you can to be very busy. This and the low conductivity of water is a fatal combination for poisoning the animal. The fish with the passing of the days begin to get desperate for food so much so that a wild fish a week can eat adaptation to the owner's hand!, Is so desperate for food that we must be vigilant and not overfeed.
But secondary factors that influence:
In very soft water with low conductivities the water pH fluctuates a lot and always tends to rise, an effect that is called alkalosis. Acids react in a way that increases the PH rather than lower it. Something fatal Discus fish for several reasons:
• In very soft and with little salt water practically bacteria are reduced in proportion impressionable therefore no rapid cycling and ammonia nitrogen in ammonium ion represented (NH4) accumulates in large quantities.
• When the pH begins to rise the ammonium ion is converted into ammonia (NH3) and this fatal Discus fish poisoning producing this gas.
• The fish is subject to constant changes in PH weakening against any disease.
Other problems are the water changes with water that should be ready with same parameters and aged aquarium base ie PH, KH, salts and identical temperature.
If they start racing and Money:
I was unable to rescue (not to say cure) to several S. and S. aequisfasciata heckel once they start to turn and do as follows which gave me very good results:
Always 1-I have a tank of about 50 to 80 liters vegetated and stable without fish. As I see bristling with fins and bars constantly marked stress or rotate or start racing the step directly to the tank that has very similar parameters to the main tank (with water from the main tank and a set time). Plants are to remove any traces of nitrogen compounds (ammonia, No3).
2 - NO FOOD. Something important since we know that the full stomach of the animal is the problem and is suffering poisoning that affects your whole nervous system.
3-24 hours without lights at 32 ° C. (I do it only for 24 hours because plants need light, but the goal is not to expose more stress to the animal and lower your daytime activity)
4-Increase the main aquarium salt because it is very likely that if the other fish ate much attacks occur in them .. Note that the salts may vary and down without realizing if we use such as peat, this "softens "pulling down the water conductivity.
Although the most common is that the sales rise, the opposite often happens when working with very soft water.
5 - If the fish is not intoxicated enough lives without problems, but is prone to attack if it feeds much immediately. For this we must leave it a few weeks and slowly strengthen to live and good quality food.
conclusion:
After reading much about it and review my own experience (along with many of the forums) came to the conclusion that it is not disease Tournament or Whirling disease since the fish recovered not continue with attacks if they are kept stable parameters and remember that tournament disease would not cure.
What I have is very clear that the low conductivity ratio - much power is fatal to fish that are not adapted to the aquarium.
When we see the conductivities of different biotopes of the discus we realize the soft, acidic and low conductivity that is water and sewage still, but we note that in an aquarium features may change from time to another and it will never be the same as in an open environment.
I was in biotopes of S. heckel, S aequisfaciata and S haraldi, and I could see and measure their biotopes and water parameters are almost impossible to keep in aquariums so I recommend water with some salt content, stable pH and KH (almost null biotope).
Saul says something very interesting Sorin, Argentine author aquarium father, in his book "Aquarium Installation and Maintenance Volume I" on page 182
"Under normal conditions, the concentration of ammonia in the body of the fish is higher than in the aquarium water. This is because adding the vital processes continually ammonia body fluids, while in the aquarium, biological filtration, removes part of that gas. The result is the flow, diffusion, of ammoniacal waste products from the fish water.
In abnormal cases, high concentration of ammonia water, malfunction of the filtration system, the normal excretory process can be inhibited and in extreme conditions may reverse the normal flow of ammonia and the concentration of this in body fluids increase. The fish, in this situation, they should adjust the levels of ammonia, converting it into other nitrogen products in the excretory system. If this does not happen, the fish can not excrete waste products as ammonia and intoxicate. "
This is very interesting as it has much in soft water the number of nitrifying bacteria is very low compared to other water and ammonia could be that the time is increased by producing problems in fish. Often we measure NH3/NH4 but the aquarium is a closed environment and at the time of supply or excretory (often the same) the ammonia could have some significant increase.
Another interesting item is the one that was published in Aquarius Practical Number 84 in relation to marine fish Banggai cardinalfish, in which they explain that in the fry food that gave gave him the fish started with these symptoms (very similar to f1). After a term argo research scientist in charge of the investigation (Alejandro A. Vagelli) concluded that the problem arose from the dietary deficiency of polyunsaturated acids (PUFA) of -3 and -6 series, which are very important for normal neurological development and behavior in marine fish.
By this I do not mean that in the discus this is the problem, but certainly inadequate diet can trigger these attacks more than anything sensitive or delicate fish and they are used to very specific parameters. Or the combination of inadequate food and water that does not have the elements that the fish needs for proper digestion.
Anyway, there are many questions of why the fish is poisoned and it would be interesting to know for sure that is what causes this intoxication but what I can say is that there is no way to save them.
It would be great to tell their experiences to see among all that we can continue to learn more about these wonderful fish called Discus.
Marcelo Jorge Fernandez"
Again, please visit the site if you would like to translate more articles at: WildFishAquarium.com (http://wildfishaquarium.com/)
I'll link the article here: "A problem called "F1", "Turmix" or "Tornado sickness" or "Whirling Disease" " (http://wildfishaquarium.com/f1-turmix/)
Here is a google translation of the whole article. Keep in mind, following a full blown translation can be difficult because it will try to translate literal word for word, but the essense of the piece is there. Keep in mind that when it translates "Tornado Disease" it translates it to read "Disease of the Tournament" which is obviously not translated correctly.
Without further ado, here is the translation:
"A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"
A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"
First of all and in these cases it is essential, I want to clarify that I am not a scientist to corroborate the subject matter but I could be watching and learning certain things with over the years.
I am simply passionate about tropical fish and as such, a curious constant of these wonderful animals.
If you are reading this because your fish are turning and doing crazy races against all the elements that have on the road (or ever have). Well, I think these lines I will help.
F1's disease, Turmix Illness Tournament or Whirling Disease in fish Discs is one of many problems that arise when we want to start with a staff, in my case has always happened to me wild Discus (as I think are much more likely than hybrids), but the question is: what affects us, is actually this disease?
An important clarification:
One important thing is to make it clear that only expose my unscientific thinking but with many hours of observation that lead me to think that the disease Tournament has NOTHING to do with these attacks in the Discus fish
With regard to the meaning of "F1" to this problem, because in the forums speaking the name of the category Formula 1 racing was derived due to the high speed take fish during turns on an imaginary axis and during the race taking Discus sweeping away everything you have on the road including the aquarium glass.
Let's review first tournament disease:
Whirling disease Tournament or Disease:
The disease Tournament is caused by a myxosporideo protozoan parasite, "Myxoxoma cerebralis" which comes in the form of spores to fish staying within it, through tissues to reach the cartilage by this is that when a fish is sick is very likely that other fish are also (first difference with what happens to our Discus, since often these affected one individual turning movements and the others are no problem and never get to show symptoms) .
Another important point is that the disease Tournament is affecting cold water fish, so it is as well known in Pscicultura trout by disasters in nature also as it was in Montana USA down record 90% of trout Arco Iris in the Madison river. Also much affects Cyprinids such as tents and Carasiuss (when cold water is another reason to think hard affect Discus).
The symptoms of this disease is that fish swim in circles to death (do quick runs into walls or objects but swimming is the problem, another reason to distrust! Since discus swimming in circles and out QUICKLY fired at full speed without worrying about what you have before).
Second fish having the disease Tournament or "Whirling Disease" exhibit skeletal deformities (live long enough to experience these symptoms when discus "last" only 24 hours., Or 48 h. In the best ).
Lifecycle Myxoxoma cerebralis
A very good thing to know is the cycle of the disease:
(From page www.flyfishing-argentina.com) written by the prestigious Mr. Silvia Ortubay.
The life cycle of Myxobolus cerebralis is complex and involves two hosts (an aquatic worm and a fish) and produces two very different types of spores. A guy up the spores that develop on infected fish called myxospores. These are released to the environment after the death and decomposition of the fish that contained or feces of infected fish-eating predators (birds, other fish, mammals). According to Russian researchers the myxospores can remain viable for more than 30 years in the dried mud. They are resistant to freezing (-20 ° C remained viable), to a variety of chemical treatments and gastric juices of the piscivorous animals. The spores are less resistant to heat. (for another against the disease in the discus)
The parasite's life cycle continues when these myxospores are ingested by Tubifex tubifex worm a water tolerant polluted waters. The parasite gut worm affects approximately 3 months and begins to produce a different type of spore, the triactinomyxon, which is the infective stage for trout. This infective form survives only a few days and can be released from infected tubifícidos up to a year after infection. Transmission of the disease occurs when the fish infected with triactinomyxon worms are ingested by trout or when tubifícidos release the causal agent in susceptible fish waters. Once the parasite in the fish begins to divide and increase their number while moving through the epidermis, dermis, until the cartilage which actively feeds. Spore formation increases with temperature and occurs prior to the onset of symptoms of the disease, including 4-5 months after infection. (Our discus because I never saw a tubifex or had contact with water or other fish if fed Tubifex, begin to rotate and hit the glass??)
For all this I thought my discus fish had never contracted the disease and began to wonder more.
• Why which begins with First Spins on an axis is USUALLY the Alfa or fish that eats more?
• Why the faster starting with Giros was when it came to Wild Discus?
• Why the more water changes did it felt was worse?
• Why the more pure (salt) was water, ie containing less salt, the fish were more likely to turn?
• And finally in wild, because at the time that seemed super adapted not afraid of anything and feeding impressively, I was the next day with fish turning and crashing against the glass?
These responses led me to think that it was for nothing Myxoxoma cerebralis.
When I reviewed the symptoms and how to cure this terrible "disease" I realized it is not a disease but is closely linked to an INTERNAL INTOXICATION animal.
Symptoms of internal poisoning:
The first thing is when we talk about this problem is that the fish after feeding for days abundantly displayed with their fully erect fins and bars very pronounced stress is usually fish at that time is the dominant or a of the key, he looks nervous and quite scary, so that the mere presence of the aquarist (which should be used) quickly seek refuge.
Classic image of a S. heckel to start attacks. Note the dark eye and bristling fins.
The second step and a "degree" advanced the problem is that the movements of the fish looking to stay perpendicular to the ground which is very complicated and it tends to go sideways.
Finally the fish starts spinning in circles at high speed like a whirlwind to fly out against everything that this later including crystals. The blow is such as to make the fish dies or is completely knocked out.
These movements are constantly and without a specific time between attacks occur.
But something that a lot of attention is that USUALLY the fish eating more food and better adapted this to our eyes is the beginning with the problem and usually say this because many times those who are the most adapted, which also have much of the food in the stomach, can be victims.
Causes of the attacks:
The first thing to keep in mind that these symptoms do not appear are the following points.
• Something important (for me) are the salts dissolved in the water. Something very common in wild fish is when we use pure RO water, it has to be replenished with discus salts or mixture of water mains, many fans used pure discus Osmosis and know that this water in its purest form is not gives good results is always important to maintain a conductivity of more than 300us. At least!. We have explained that water without salt has many stability problems PH, few bacteria, etc..
• Another determining factor as above and the amount of food. We know that Discus fish is a glutton and eat all you can to be very busy. This and the low conductivity of water is a fatal combination for poisoning the animal. The fish with the passing of the days begin to get desperate for food so much so that a wild fish a week can eat adaptation to the owner's hand!, Is so desperate for food that we must be vigilant and not overfeed.
But secondary factors that influence:
In very soft water with low conductivities the water pH fluctuates a lot and always tends to rise, an effect that is called alkalosis. Acids react in a way that increases the PH rather than lower it. Something fatal Discus fish for several reasons:
• In very soft and with little salt water practically bacteria are reduced in proportion impressionable therefore no rapid cycling and ammonia nitrogen in ammonium ion represented (NH4) accumulates in large quantities.
• When the pH begins to rise the ammonium ion is converted into ammonia (NH3) and this fatal Discus fish poisoning producing this gas.
• The fish is subject to constant changes in PH weakening against any disease.
Other problems are the water changes with water that should be ready with same parameters and aged aquarium base ie PH, KH, salts and identical temperature.
If they start racing and Money:
I was unable to rescue (not to say cure) to several S. and S. aequisfasciata heckel once they start to turn and do as follows which gave me very good results:
Always 1-I have a tank of about 50 to 80 liters vegetated and stable without fish. As I see bristling with fins and bars constantly marked stress or rotate or start racing the step directly to the tank that has very similar parameters to the main tank (with water from the main tank and a set time). Plants are to remove any traces of nitrogen compounds (ammonia, No3).
2 - NO FOOD. Something important since we know that the full stomach of the animal is the problem and is suffering poisoning that affects your whole nervous system.
3-24 hours without lights at 32 ° C. (I do it only for 24 hours because plants need light, but the goal is not to expose more stress to the animal and lower your daytime activity)
4-Increase the main aquarium salt because it is very likely that if the other fish ate much attacks occur in them .. Note that the salts may vary and down without realizing if we use such as peat, this "softens "pulling down the water conductivity.
Although the most common is that the sales rise, the opposite often happens when working with very soft water.
5 - If the fish is not intoxicated enough lives without problems, but is prone to attack if it feeds much immediately. For this we must leave it a few weeks and slowly strengthen to live and good quality food.
conclusion:
After reading much about it and review my own experience (along with many of the forums) came to the conclusion that it is not disease Tournament or Whirling disease since the fish recovered not continue with attacks if they are kept stable parameters and remember that tournament disease would not cure.
What I have is very clear that the low conductivity ratio - much power is fatal to fish that are not adapted to the aquarium.
When we see the conductivities of different biotopes of the discus we realize the soft, acidic and low conductivity that is water and sewage still, but we note that in an aquarium features may change from time to another and it will never be the same as in an open environment.
I was in biotopes of S. heckel, S aequisfaciata and S haraldi, and I could see and measure their biotopes and water parameters are almost impossible to keep in aquariums so I recommend water with some salt content, stable pH and KH (almost null biotope).
Saul says something very interesting Sorin, Argentine author aquarium father, in his book "Aquarium Installation and Maintenance Volume I" on page 182
"Under normal conditions, the concentration of ammonia in the body of the fish is higher than in the aquarium water. This is because adding the vital processes continually ammonia body fluids, while in the aquarium, biological filtration, removes part of that gas. The result is the flow, diffusion, of ammoniacal waste products from the fish water.
In abnormal cases, high concentration of ammonia water, malfunction of the filtration system, the normal excretory process can be inhibited and in extreme conditions may reverse the normal flow of ammonia and the concentration of this in body fluids increase. The fish, in this situation, they should adjust the levels of ammonia, converting it into other nitrogen products in the excretory system. If this does not happen, the fish can not excrete waste products as ammonia and intoxicate. "
This is very interesting as it has much in soft water the number of nitrifying bacteria is very low compared to other water and ammonia could be that the time is increased by producing problems in fish. Often we measure NH3/NH4 but the aquarium is a closed environment and at the time of supply or excretory (often the same) the ammonia could have some significant increase.
Another interesting item is the one that was published in Aquarius Practical Number 84 in relation to marine fish Banggai cardinalfish, in which they explain that in the fry food that gave gave him the fish started with these symptoms (very similar to f1). After a term argo research scientist in charge of the investigation (Alejandro A. Vagelli) concluded that the problem arose from the dietary deficiency of polyunsaturated acids (PUFA) of -3 and -6 series, which are very important for normal neurological development and behavior in marine fish.
By this I do not mean that in the discus this is the problem, but certainly inadequate diet can trigger these attacks more than anything sensitive or delicate fish and they are used to very specific parameters. Or the combination of inadequate food and water that does not have the elements that the fish needs for proper digestion.
Anyway, there are many questions of why the fish is poisoned and it would be interesting to know for sure that is what causes this intoxication but what I can say is that there is no way to save them.
It would be great to tell their experiences to see among all that we can continue to learn more about these wonderful fish called Discus.
Marcelo Jorge Fernandez"
Again, please visit the site if you would like to translate more articles at: WildFishAquarium.com (http://wildfishaquarium.com/)