Discus in QT are dying, should I treat or cull? pics.

[DonMD]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

In the QT tank, 1 discus dead yesterday, another today. Had noticed some darkening for a few days.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Among apparently healthy juvies from two spawns, some fish darkened, then died quickly. Other fish eating and acting normally.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Had assumed flukes (I always assume flukes) so began praziquantel 3 days ago, but flukes don't kill like this.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

75 gallon QT tank on its own floor in the house. Breeding tanks downstairs, display tank upstairs. No equipment shared, have been scrupulous in touching QT tank last every day in my routine. It has about 5 5-month old discus, and about 30 4-month old, with new rams, rummy nose, and plecos that I bought to see if they would play well with my discus.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Every two days, 80%.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank running for 6 months, bare bottom.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Water aged 24 hours, heated, no pH swing.

8. Parameters and water source;

City water, 7.0 pH, chloramines and chlorine added, handled with Prime.

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _83 F____

- ph __7.0___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading _0___

- nitrate reading __5.0__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __X__

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Between 7 - 12 days, have added 25 rummy nose (all but 7 have died), 8 rams (all healthy) and about 6 plecos, also healthy. Was intending to begin 3-month QT, wanting to add dither fish to my main display tank upstairs, but that's out! Unless I can successfully treat these sick discus. All discus came from my own spawns.

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0239_zps5454a486.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0240_zps4ee8bdb7.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0241_zpsb70e48f1.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0242_zpsf383a46e.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0248_zpsbd3fa53d.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/Sick%2075/IMG_0249_zps611d4e50.jpg

It seems to me that the very sudden decline and death of these fish must be due to the dither fish I introduced. The question now is whether it's worth it to try to medicate (I do want to get healthy dither fish for my display, which now only has my Stendker discus), or whether I should cull all and sterilize. Your thoughts and suggestions are very welcome.

And, Kudos to the Simply team for the changes to the Disease section. Thank you. -Don

[brewmaster15]

Don,
Up until you introduced the dither fish all was well...Then between 7 and 12 days you started have issues after fish addition? Thats an indicator to me as well that the dither fish carried something in...

What kind of QT and treatments did you use on the dither fish? I know you mentioned the plecos and rams were "healthy"


At this point how many discus are affected?

-al

[nc0gnet0]

Don,
Up until you introduced the dither fish all was well...Then between 7 and 12 days you started have issues after fish addition? Thats an indicator to me as well that the dither fish carried something in...

What kind of QT and treatments did you use on the dither fish? I know you mentioned the plecos and rams were "healthy"


At this point how many discus are affected?

-al

I was just about to ask the same thing, the way I am reading it he added the dithers directly to the grow-out tank, then issues started happening?

How long from when an apparently healthy juvie discus goes dark until death? Where there any deaths prior to the introduction of the dithers?

Did you have any issues when you combined the two groups of discus, and how long ago was that? Did they have any die-offs prior to their introduction to each other?

[DonMD]

Don,
Up until you introduced the dither fish all was well...Then between 7 and 12 days you started have issues after fish addition? Thats an indicator to me as well that the dither fish carried something in...

What kind of QT and treatments did you use on the dither fish? I know you mentioned the plecos and rams were "healthy"


At this point how many discus are affected?

-al

Thanks, Al. I did not immediately treat the new fish I introduced into the QT tank, thinking I would just watch and wait. Now I've watched and waited, and I'm seeing illness. I believe that the new fish brought something in, I've no idea what. I have to decide to either try to treat, or to cull and sterilize.

I have to assume that all the discus are affected. They're all in the same water column. I think the main issue for me will be to ensure that I isolate the issue to this specific tank in the house, and not have any spread. I was hoping that posting on this thread that someone might recommend a treatment that could counter the disease, but I don't really know what the problem is, or what intervention might help. At this point, no other fish in the house are affected.

[DonMD]

I was just about to ask the same thing, the way I am reading it he added the dithers directly to the grow-out tank, then issues started happening?

How long from when an apparently healthy juvie discus goes dark until death? Where there any deaths prior to the introduction of the dithers?

Did you have any issues when you combined the two groups of discus, and how long ago was that? Did they have any die-offs prior to their introduction to each other?
e
There were no deaths before adding the dither fish. None. All these months of breeding and growing out fish, and no deaths. Now, the dither fish are added to one of the grow out tanks, and in 10 days fish begin dying. And when I combined the first group of juvies with the second group of juvies, there were no issues. So I'm fairly certain that the issue was introduced with the dither fish I bought. I did make the mental calculation that if I was introducing infected fish, that I would control it in my QT tank, but now I'm worried that once it's in the house, it could spread! If there's no common sense recommendation for treatment, I'll cull the fish and sterilize the tank, and hope that the disease didn't spread.

No idea what it is. But is seems very fast acting. I'll post again tomorrow or Friday if I have any more issues.

[nc0gnet0]

It's a hard call. but if I were inclined to try and treat I would go with a formalin and malachite green combination.

[Allwin]

Don, sorry ur having issues.

Just have a look and anyway fish looks similar in this below thread which i gone thru sometime back.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?103664-All-fishes-got-sick-suddenly-sick-and-starving-Help-Pls!!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Don,
I would wait and see on the culling if you think you can maintain separation from everything..if this tank is in your small fishroom, I might be inclined to either move it out, or sterilize. Its basic economics since you don't have any idea what you are dealing with. If you keep the fish I would start a full qt of the whole tank 6 weeks min.... Ricks starting point is good. and then I would start a round of furan 2 incase its bacterial...I don't usuallly like to shot gun a disease but in this case, I would. Watch and see if theres any more deaths, and decide further.. Once this has been done, and there are no more deaths, then you would proceed with adding some test fish from your other tanks and seeing if they have issue. If you want to chat, give me a call.

-al

[DonMD]

Thanks, all. Formalin and malachite, followed by Furan-2. The tank is isolated, in its own room, but even so I get paranoid. But all other fish in other rooms seem good knock on wood. I'll update when there are changes. -Don

[rickztahone]

Great to hear Don. I'm glad you have them isolated. In situations like this, it is key to be able to quarantine your quarantine tank.

Were these the ones you had for sale not so long ago? If so, it is a shame, I had thought of getting some from you.

[DonMD]

I sold some fish from this tank, and I added the new fish to it. Then disease struck. But that's what the QT is for, to try to introduce new fish, and discover without harming your main stock if the new fish contain harmful pathogens. In my case, they did.

A result of the Quick Cure I treated with yesterday is that the bristlenose plecos I purchased all died, but no more discus. Discus are dark, but not dead. Perhaps it's the stress of the medication. I'll change water tonight, and re-evaluate tomorrow.

[DonMD]

Well, the Quick Cure took out my plecos, but unfortunately didn't benefit the discus. Went to Furan-2, and there was also no change, only fish continuing to die.

This is the first time I have greatly benefited from a QT tank. My breeding tanks downstairs, and my display tank upstairs to this point (I'm knocking on wood) are unaffected.

I'm now disinfecting the QT tank. Phew.

[John_Nicholson]

Sorry that you are having issues but at least you did use QT. This is a valuable lesson for lots of people. Good luck Don.

-john

[DonMD]

The only fish I really lost were the dither fish I wanted to introduce, all the discus were seconds from my breeding, so I don't feel it's a big loss.

[Disgirl]

Sorry to hear of all the trouble Don. Hope all the others are unaffected. Shows us all again how important QT is!
Barb