My First Batch of Eggs

[OC Discus]

Just returned from two week-long trips. Preparing to do a large, 80% water change when I noticed my albino golden yellow laying eggs and my snow white covering them. I've been making some preparation for this for months, but have a few immediate questions.

1) Water quality is good. Should I interrupt their spawn to do a water change tonight, or allow them to finish?
Ammonia- 0
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 10
Ph- 6.8-7.2

2) I have a breeding tank set up, but not cycled. Would it be ok to move the stump with the eggs and the fish to the breeding tank with some bio media and do daily 50% wc rather than wait for the next spawn? I know the yellow is a female and fairly sure the white is the dominant male in the tank.

3) My ph from the tap is 6.8 - 7.2. Will eggs hatch and grow out at this level? I don't have an ro machine, but can get some buffer for the breeding tank and water changes.

I'll try to post some pictures from my phone in another post.

I prefer to move them so I can order a couple of new ones from Kenny's August shipment

Any words of real wisdom will be appreciated. I'll be re-reading the posts in the breeding section, but anyone who has time to jot down a list of bullet points for a first time breeder at this stage is welcome. Some people can say in a paragraph what would take hours of reading to decipher.

Thanks

[OC Discus]

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Mom

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Dad

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Honeymoon suite

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Mom

[OC Discus]

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[Rudustin]

OC welcome home. Nice surprise. Have this pair spawned before? If not I would suggest that you just let them be and let nature take it's course and let them practice. I have taken up way too much tank space with two pairs that have spawned four and five times and they are still practicing. It takes a while for them to get it right and more importantly it takes us the fish keeper to get it right. Mean while you could get the "honeymoon suite" cycled and running and then after a couple more practice runs and the proper water parameters you could move them. I'm about to put the two pairs I have back into one of the community tanks and let them continue to practice so I can thin out some of my over populated tanks. Good luck. I know you were in Florida visiting your family. Too bad it wasn't closer you could have come over. Rufus

[John_Nicholson]

The ph does not matter. it is the softness that matters. I would let them finish then do your water change. I would not worry about moving them. They will probably eat the eggs or fry this time anyway. I would let them do whatever they are gonig to do and then move them later. Once they start spawning they will continue to do so for a awhile.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

I would move the eggs and let the pair be. See if the eggs hatch. NO need to worry about bio etc just for the eggs. Chances are your going to need a Ro unit, buffering the water will accomplish nothing. As John said, Ph has nothing to do with it, calcium content (you want less) does.

What size is that breeding tank? 20 gallon is the absolute smallest I recomend, and I prefer 29/30's.


Wish you luck, but that pair will prove to be difficult for a first timer.

[Allwin]

tds meter is helpful to analyse ur water..

[OC Discus]

Rufus,

Thanks for the input. Im sure when yours get it right you'll be supplying Miami with fry.

Ive never been to Miami, but when I do I hope to look you up. I went to Florida in the Spring and wanted to go down to Key West and Miami. It was just so far I didn't make it.

Best of luck with your fish.


OC welcome home. Nice surprise. Have this pair spawned before? If not I would suggest that you just let them be and let nature take it's course and let them practice. I have taken up way too much tank space with two pairs that have spawned four and five times and they are still practicing. It takes a while for them to get it right and more importantly it takes us the fish keeper to get it right. Mean while you could get the "honeymoon suite" cycled and running and then after a couple more practice runs and the proper water parameters you could move them. I'm about to put the two pairs I have back into one of the community tanks and let them continue to practice so I can thin out some of my over populated tanks. Good luck. I know you were in Florida visiting your family. Too bad it wasn't closer you could have come over. Rufus

[Rudustin]

OC, Your welcome. Yes, Florida is a very long state. I'm going up to see Pat next week. Looking forward to finally getting to see her wilds, her horses, her husband (didn't mean to place him third!). Most of all to actually meet her. Take care and best regards. Rufus

[OC Discus]

Thanks John. What level or range of softness is acceptable for hatching and raising fry? Is there a buffer that can be used to attain the proper level, or is RO the only effective way? My local fish store is interested in buying some of my fry if I can successfully raise some.

I realized the stump the eggs are on is too large to go in my breeding tank. Since I have the breeding tank with sponge and cone set up, I think I'll move them as soon as the eggs are eaten. That way they can do their next run in the new tank.


The ph does not matter. it is the softness that matters. I would let them finish then do your water change. I would not worry about moving them. They will probably eat the eggs or fry this time anyway. I would let them do whatever they are gonig to do and then move them later. Once they start spawning they will continue to do so for a awhile.

-john

[OC Discus]

Thank you Rick. My breeding tank is 20 gallon with the sides and bottom covered. It is bare bottom with a large sponge filter, heaters, and one of Barb's cones. The eggs are attached to a stump that is too large to fit into the breeding tank.

What difficulties do you see with this pair? What offspring would you expect? Also, is RO the only way to obtain acceptable water for hatching and growing out? Are there other ways to soften the water?


I would move the eggs and let the pair be. See if the eggs hatch. NO need to worry about bio etc just for the eggs. Chances are your going to need a Ro unit, buffering the water will accomplish nothing. As John said, Ph has nothing to do with it, calcium content (you want less) does.

What size is that breeding tank? 20 gallon is the absolute smallest I recomend, and I prefer 29/30's.


Wish you luck, but that pair will prove to be difficult for a first timer.

[OC Discus]

Thank you Allwin. What does a tds meter help you accomplish?


tds meter is helpful to analyse ur water..

[John_Nicholson]

Hardness is made up of several things but ike Rick said calcium seems to be the killer. If your eggs do not hatch in your tap water then the best thing is RO. For most folks mixing about 70/30 ro to tap seems to work well. I use my ro waste water for my other tanks.

-john

[OC Discus]

So it can be a watch and see thing? If they hatch and develop normally, RO is not required. If the eggs harden and don't hatch hardness is likely a culprit. What about deformed fry? Is that also a hardness issue?

I use test strips indicating 0-25 as very soft, 75-soft, 150- hard, and 300- very hard. I think mine is about 150.


Hardness is made up of several things but ike Rick said calcium seems to be the killer. If your eggs do not hatch in your tap water then the best thing is RO. For most folks mixing about 70/30 ro to tap seems to work well. I use my ro waste water for my other tanks.

-john

[Allwin]

TDS meter is used to determine the water conductivity. water conductivity varies based on the the dissolved salts/water hardness in the water. Since u mentioned tds is 150ppm, its highly possible to get some hatch rate and hope ur male is fertile enough to confirm the pair. My aged tap waters tds is like 170-180ppm, still decent hatch rate without RO.

I prefer tds meter for its accuracy vs strips.Let them practice for few attempts and if no luck or very less hatch rate. try reducing the tds with RO water, my few cents and good luck.


Thank you Allwin. What does a tds meter help you accomplish?

[OC Discus]

Thanks Allwin

[John_Nicholson]

Yes I would go with the wait and see. I always tell people to start simple and let the fish prove that other stuff is needed. So many people start with an extremely complicated process. Start simple and move on from there.

-john

[OC Discus]

Thanks John


Yes I would go with the wait and see. I always tell people to start simple and let the fish prove that other stuff is needed. So many people start with an extremely complicated process. Start simple and move on from there.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

What difficulties do you see with this pair?

You have an albino and a snow white, attachment most likely can be a bit tricky. Easier to start with a brown based/turq type pair.


What offspring would you expect?

You could have as many as 5+ types of fry from this cross. The thing is, in the albino parent, the albino gene can mask all sorts of other genetics. This fish could also be a pigeon blood, or not. Name implies it is golden based.

Same applies to the snow white, the snow white gene may or may not be masking a hidden pb gene.

This would be one of those "you don't know until you try it" cross's. The results will however yield a few clues to the genetic makeup of the parents.

[Allwin]

Interesting, understand albino masking its hidden gene even snow white may mask a hidden pb gene?

[Rudustin]

Interesting, understand albino masking its hidden gene even snow white may mask a hidden pb gene?
I've Nc this question before because I have three snow whites. They haven't spawned as yet because all three are females and they are quite large. My other males that are as big would be unsuitable because of the possibility of massive peppering.

[OC Discus]

The possibility of a variety of fry is somewhat exciting. If they are not covered with pepper I'll look forward to growing some out.

I've seen a strain recently called yellow/white that looks similar to the red/white. I'll post pics if things develop. Lights are not on yet, but dad has been guarding the spot. I've moved the breeding tank to the living room. My wife might object. I hope not.

[OC Discus]

Still guarding eggs

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[Rudustin]

OC, My fingers are crossed but please lower your expectation. I have at least learned that. They are in a cycle so they will spawn almost every week. Good luck. Rufus

[OC Discus]

Thanks Rufus. I realize the first few batches usually don't make it.

My experiment with the breeding tank in the living room was short lived- until my wife got home. It's running in a third location now. Glad no fish are in it. I've been too busy to read up on how many days before eggs normally hatch. Only one appears white in the bunch. I need to browse over to the breeding section and find a timeline.

[Rudustin]

Thanks Rufus. I realize the first few batches usually don't make it.

My experiment with the breeding tank in the living room was short lived- until my wife got home. It's running in a third location now. Glad no fish are in it. I've been too busy to read up on how many days before eggs normally hatch. Only one appears white in the bunch. I need to browse over to the breeding section and find a timeline.OC, if the eggs are viable they usually hatch in around forty eight hours. The only pair that have produced wrigglers for me were a Raff pair a couple of weeks ago. The had a very small spawn and the eggs did hatch. They ate the wrigglers I think. When the eggs start turning dark and you see a very small dark spot the size of a period in the middle it usually means they are about to hatch. Good luck!!! Ah yes, the wife! Well, the breeding tank will have to be located elsewhere. I'm alone so I have the liberty of moving tanks anywhere. Wives rule the roost! Best regards. Rufus

[nc0gnet0]

about 56 hours ime.

[John_Nicholson]

I have never put a clock on it but I always figure 2 1/2 days to hatch, 2 1/2 days to free swim but temp does have a bearing on it.

-john

[OC Discus]

about 56 hours ime.


I have never put a clock on it but I always figure 2 1/2 days to hatch, 2 1/2 days to free swim but temp does have a bearing on it.

-john

That helps. Thanks. I know they don't have a chance in the display tank with the filters and other fish. I think I'll move the stump and parents to the breeding tank today before they hatch. It will extend out of the top. Once they go free swimming, I'll remove the stump. The sides and bottom are bright white. Maybe they'll be able to find the parents. 20 g may be better for albino, making it easier to find them.

[OC Discus]

Eggs moved. Not sure of viability.

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What is the best temp at egg stage?

[OC Discus]

More light or less light at this stage?

[John_Nicholson]

I like 82 degrees for everything. Light is not a large concern right now.

-john

[OC Discus]

Thanks John. You're a genius.

[ronald sherman]

not meaning too hijake this threat but I have a batch of fry small batch about 2 dozen almost 1 month old and yesterday from the same pair a large group maybe 100 that have reach free swimming and starting too attach naturally in a different tank, my biggest problem is tank space and I'm told the pr is not good for breeding but I'm trying too get it down too a science best of luck as I'm sure your do well my biggest problem unlike you is having everything organize and ready like the breeding tank, that's been my biggest problem in life but again best of luck btw I plain on taking pic today of the 3.5 week's old fry just for comparasion I am doing 100% water change on it daily,

[OC Discus]

Eggs were eaten today, so I removed the stump and put in cone. We will see if the go at it again.

[Rudustin]

Eggs were eaten today, so I removed the stump and put in cone. We will see if the go at it again. Hi OC, Well, they will try again and maybe again and again. Sorry to hear but it seems that all the stars have to align before it happens. Did you get a TDS tester. Mine arrive today but haven't been home to unpack it yet. Good luck next time. Rufus

[OC Discus]

Hey Rufus,

I did not get a tds tester yet. I'm taking a watch and see approach for now. The pair is now settled into the breeding tank in its new location. It will probably take a few days for them to adjust to their new surroundings. Thanks for asking.


Hi OC, Well, they will try again and maybe again and again. Sorry to hear but it seems that all the stars have to align before it happens. Did you get a TDS tester. Mine arrive today but haven't been home to unpack it yet. Good luck next time. Rufus

[OC Discus]

The pair was looking lethargic in the breeding tank- eating but not aggressively. I moved them back to the display tank to reduce stress and let them practice a few more times. They are happy back in the main tank and have reclaimed the spot where the eggs were laid.

Will probably take Ricks advice and remove the next batch of eggs, leaving the parents in the main tank. I'll need to re read how to artificially raise fry.

[Rudustin]

The pair was looking lethargic in the breeding tank- eating but not aggressively. I moved them back to the display tank to reduce stress and let them practice a few more times. They are happy back in the main tank and have reclaimed the spot where the eggs were laid.

Will probably take Ricks advice and remove the next batch of eggs, leaving the parents in the main tank. I'll need to re read how to artificially raise fry.Hi OC, If I were you I would let them practice a lot before going through the arduous work of trying to bring up the fry (if you should get them by the way) because from everything I know it would be that much more difficult to raise the fry due to the demands of feeding their first food and not having the advantage of having their parents, one or the other or both, to help that process in the beginning. There are more experienced heads here than I am but raising fry from the old days of Jack Wattley was a very difficult process that had to be given twenty four hour attention. If of course you have the time and you do get wrigglers I would really prepare for that possibility in the reference of time management. I know I wouldn't even attempt it at this point. The AFs that Pat has for me to pic up next week had spawned again about two and half days ago. She is letting them spawn in the hope of getting wrigglers. They have spawned several times. They ate the eggs again either for the fourth or fifth time. Why don't you just let them be for a while and not hurry the process. Rufus

[OC Discus]

Thanks Rufus. That's probably what I'll do. The general consensus, or at least the majority opinion, seems to be let them have 3-4 spawns in the display tank so they learn to guard the eggs before moving to a breeding tank. I'm having second thoughts about all the work involved as well. One day it will be nice to raise my own. I might even sell some of my current stock and use the main tank to grow out some of my own- especially if they come from this pair- great potential for attractive offspring and variety.

I was reading a thread on raising fry without water changes using a simple, but complex system of tubs, coffee filters, airlines, etc. Everyone praised the concept and the outcome. I just couldn't get my head around the design and how to reproduce it.

How about some updated pictures of your tanks? I think everyone would enjoy seeing them with a little commentary on each one.


Hi OC, If I were you I would let them practice a lot before going through the arduous work of trying to bring up the fry (if you should get them by the way) because from everything I know it would be that much more difficult to raise the fry due to the demands of feeding their first food and not having the advantage of having their parents, one or the other or both, to help that process in the beginning. There are more experienced heads here than I am but raising fry from the old days of Jack Wattley was a very difficult process that had to be given twenty four hour attention. If of course you have the time and you do get wrigglers I would really prepare for that possibility in the reference of time management. I know I wouldn't even attempt it at this point. The AFs that Pat has for me to pic up next week had spawned again about two and half days ago. She is letting them spawn in the hope of getting wrigglers. They have spawned several times. They ate the eggs again either for the fourth or fifth time. Why don't you just let them be for a while and not hurry the process. Rufus

[Rudustin]

Thanks Rufus. That's probably what I'll do. The general consensus, or at least the majority opinion, seems to be let them have 3-4 spawns in the display tank so they learn to guard the eggs before moving to a breeding tank. I'm having second thoughts about all the work involved as well. One day it will be nice to raise my own. I might even sell some of my current stock and use the main tank to grow out some of my own- especially if they come from this pair- great potential for attractive offspring and variety.

I was reading a thread on raising fry without water changes using a simple, but complex system of tubs, coffee filters, airlines, etc. Everyone praised the concept and the outcome. I just couldn't get my head around the design and how to reproduce it.

How about some updated pictures of your tanks? I think everyone would enjoy seeing them with a little commentary on each one. OC, Yes, I think you you're better off just letting them be. I have no immediate plans to breed because I don't have the time at the moment. My work/art is heading into a really busy time and December is the final month that I can even think about it. I have most of December and January to be home and not travel except to local work. So then I will try the Altum Floras and the ALbino Gold Melon and the Rafflesias pairs but until then they can spawn to their hearts content and practice! LOL! Practice make perfect hopefully and all three pairs are quite young so there is plenty of time for them to get it right and for me to really
be prepared as well. I will try this week to take some photos of my seven tanks of discus. In two years since I joined SD that is what the discus bug did to me! It's an addiction that continues to possess me and you and so many others. I won't be going into rehab about it for a very long time. LOL. Best regards. Rufus

[XAnhLe]

Rufus,

Thanks for the input. Im sure when yours get it right you'll be supplying Miami with fry.



Rufus,
I'm waiting for that day ;)