I've lost a fish, now I'm trying to keep the rest safe

[Loosir]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

I have brand new fish and I have already killed one and I think the rest are sick. I think I might have given them a parasite or bacteria from frozen salmon, but I’m not sure. Here’s the story
I fed my discus raw, frozen salmon once and only once last Sunday 8/3/14 and I have feed small bits if raw 93% ground beef for a few days, I haven’t found beefheart yet. They get Colbat discus flake 4 times a day.

Last week my 2.5” flachen snakeskin started looking beautiful, more so than the last two weeks. The fins became bright/iridescent blue, the body, eyes and bars stayed light. Then I noticed it was staying near the top of the tank breathing hard. Tuesday night I checked the water, 0,0,5-10 all good, but I decided to do a 75% water change. During the change it started darting around the tank and really began to darken. After the change it couldn’t stay upright and would spin on its side on the bottom of the tank. By morning it was gone. I’d say it took all of 18 hours for this fish to go.
Wednesday night my 2.5” pigeon snakeskin began hiding. Not breathing hard but it was definitely more colorful then last week. I pulled it out and performed a salt dip, 2tbs non-iodized salt per gal. It started freaking out, darting around during the dip after only 5min so I put it back in the tank. 40% WC
Thursday morning one of my 35 neons had died.
Thursday night my 2.5” blue diamond had black eyes and my 2.5” cobalt was dark. I did another 75% WC and salt dipped the two for a good 10min. They tilted a lot and one was horizontal for a second. I’m not certain what rolling over during a salt dip is supposed to be, not sure if it means they can’t get back up or if they fall to the side for an instant. Anyway I put them back in the tank.
This morning the pigeon snakeskin and cobalt look great but the blue diamond still has dark eyes and got really dark, almost black, but then a few minutes later turned light again and swam around just fine. Now my 2.5” dark angle is now is dark on top (it has not been for the past few weeks) hiding at the bottom back of the tank and has clamped fins.

I guess I'm trying determine for sure the cause and solution.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
See above


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
WCs and salt dips. I also put a bag of activated charcoal in my sump.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
Seven 2.5” Discus and Two 3” Discus
(35) 1" neons.
55 gallon display with a 20 gallon sump below.
The sump has three Poret dividers which are about 13"x13", a bunch of plants and a light shining on it for about 12 hours. No sign of algae. The flow from the display to the sump is about 80gal/hour which was calculated to be slow enough that the sump acts as a Hamberg Matten Filter.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
25-30 gallons daily, so 50% of display or 40% of the system? I’ve done 75% the last few days and will keep that up for the time being.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Bare bottom, fully cycled, started in May. Décor is a manzanita branch
Got the fish on 7/29 about 3 weeks ago.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
I do not age the water, tap water plus prime. The temp is 84 from the faucet


8. Parameters and water source; Tap water


Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

I’ve checked these every day for the last 3 weeks as I’m new at this and the fish are young. But the parameters are always the same.
- temp 84F

- ph 7.8

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 5-10

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 100%

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Discus, A Manzanita branch Neons, hornwart, anacharis and java moss all in the last 8 weeks



10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Thanks so much for any replies, Geoff

[Second Hand Pat]

Just a few other questions for clarity; is the tank BB or sand/gravel. Are there plants in the tank or just the sump. Is it safe to say with all the new additions no QT was done?

Also any pictures of the tank and fish.

[Loosir]

Hi Pat,
Thanks so much for taking a look. Yes there was no QT. The neons and plants were alone in the tank for 4 weeks, no losses or signs of distress. Then I added the Discus but nothing else.
Its bare bottom tank.
Here’s a thread with a video of the fish
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115231-Fantastic-new-Discus-from-Hans&highlight=
Here’s a thread with the setup.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115138-White-slime-in-the-water&highlight=

[Second Hand Pat]

Can you please take a video of how the fish look now?

[Loosir]

Sorry, that would make a lot more sense, yes I will.
I started this thread at work, I'll make a video when I get home at the end of the day. Thanks again

[nc0gnet0]

Pacific Salmon or Great Lakes Salmon? I really don't think that is the issue, but this one is a bit of a head scratcher. Do you notice most of the symptoms after a water change? What is the ph of the water straight from your tap?

maybe they have picked something up from the neons?

[discuspaul]

Have you tested the pH of water out of the tap to that of the water in your tank to ensure there is no wide differential ?

While I also feel the salmon is probably not the issue, you mentioned you did feed bits of raw hamburger on successive days, and that sounds a bit suspect to me. Was it sitting out at room temp for any length of time on any of those days ?

[Loosir]

My PH is 7.8 and the tap is 7.7 its not settling much. The hamburger is frozen, I throw in tiny bits and they thaw almost instantly. I was using Carols post about frozen beefheart chipped up with a salad shooter as an example.
So the dark Angle looks great again, the Pigeon is hiding from me, probably still mad about the salt dip but I saw it swimming in the open earlier. The blue diamond still has dark eyes.
Here's a photo of what he looked like a week ago
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/geoffloo/032_zps70bdb219.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/geoffloo/media/032_zps70bdb219.jpg.html)
Here's a photo of him right now
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/geoffloo/252_zpsa7a21e78.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/geoffloo/media/252_zpsa7a21e78.jpg.html)

And here's a video of the tank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7QLhQUvLb4&feature=youtube_gdata

[Loosir]

So my Pigeon just spun around in a tight circle 20-30 or so times in 3 seconds. I'm giving him a salt dip as we speak, I'll keep him in for the 20 mins.

[Second Hand Pat]

Geoff, do me a flavor and contact Hans and see if he has any suggestions and read this http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115050-Whirling-Disease&highlight=whirling.

[yim11]

Usually I dont post on disease threads unless I have concrete assistance to offer, but you are doing things right and have a very interesting situation. The whirling issue has never been fully understood or cured that I'm aware of. I wonder if you have 2 separate issues - whirling and a bacteria issue. I think bacteria based on the dark cloudy eyes. Salt dip would normally fix that but if the tank has the bacterial issue its just buying you time. By chance do you notice the eyes clear up for about 24 hrs after the dip?

Rick will also note that for the pb to spin is interesting.

[discuspaul]

I know that April Ross has had quite a few discus swirling experiences in past years, and had reasoned out some interesting and plausible causes and treatments.
Unfortunately, I don't think she'll see this post.

Wish I could remember what she told me about those experiences.

[Loosir]

I'll contact Hans and read the article.
The blue diamond is definitely improved since the dip yesterday, his body is normal and I can even see some red in his eye...a little. I'll give him another dip after the large WC.
The pigeon took the salt dip just fine, I wrapped a towel around the bowl so it wouldn't see anything and get startled. It's now looks great, swimming in the open calmly no heavy breathing, no spinning.
You guy are so great to share your time. Thanks I'll update when I can.

[Loosir]

That article is really interesting. What hits home is that the fish that are affected: hide, have dark eyes, whirl after WC and many times die when they hit the tank wall. I assume that's what happened to my Flachen Snakskin. He says this is internal toxicity caused by low conductivity and overfeeding. I have TDS of 250 which I thought was perfect. Unlike the article I don't use RO water or keep wilds, but everything else fits.

Does anyone think feeding less and fewer water changes would help as suggested by the comments?
Let me know if this makes sense.
Geoff

[nc0gnet0]

I think the dark eyes are a product of stress bar expression, as to why it's just happening in the eye area is interesting. I have tried to read through the article Pat linked, but it's just to painful to me, the translation needs much work. I don't think what you are seeing is a result of overfeeding coupled with low TDS as in the article, but what you are seeing is indeed a product of extreme stress. Exactly why the fish are so stressed I do not know.

Does the whirling always occur during or after a water change? I noticed that one had a bought during the salt dip?


Does anyone think feeding less and fewer water changes would help as suggested by the comments?
Let me know if this makes sense.
Geoff

Everything tells me this would be counter productive, however, what you might need to do is try to make the water changes as stress free as possible. Perhaps dim the lights and remove the water slower than normal, as well as fill/replace it at a much slower speed (under dimly lit conditions).

I have taken note of a few instances of what your describing in forum posts in the last couple of years, and the symptoms/manifestation are all very similar. That's not to say that the cause is all the same, but it seems to at least suggest that they might be. As to what that cause is, I wish I knew. The first thing that comes to mind is a water toxicity issue, aka some chemical getting into to the tank, maybe leaching out of the wood, a household chemical, something in your tap, etc etc.

Have you noticed any improvement since the addition of the carbon?

Keep us informed, and I wish I could be more help, maybe Paul might have something to add. I do know that if the symptoms were to continue (I hope they don't) it would be nice for one of these fish to get sent to the UFL for a biopsy.

-Rick

[Loosir]

Everything tells me this would be counter productive,

I agree with this. The Blue Diamond's eye has been both red and black this morning. The red pigeon has not twirled today but still seems to be really restless, see video in the upper left and is still more colorful then the blue pigeon in the back of the tank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zJXSCn8PQ&feature=youtube_gdata

I'm no longer worried I'll lose anymore as I believe the salt dips and carbon have helped. I assume the Flachen died from hitting the tank glass.
Is this safe to just proceed ahead, feeding beef again and watching them or do I still need to determine if there's some sort of bacteria or parasite in the tank which might be stressing the fish?

[Loosir]

At it again. he's now in a salt dip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzioKWKU2RE&feature=youtube_gdata

water's fine..I think
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/geoffloo/038_zpsd79948c0.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/geoffloo/media/038_zpsd79948c0.jpg.html)

[Second Hand Pat]

I hate this stuff. I have an older thread of when I went through this. It is a very long thread where Andrew Soh stepped in to offer advice. He thought it was some type of internal parasite. Salt will delay things but not prevent it. If that pigeon could show bars they would be very dark. Where did not neon's come from. Are they wild caught? Do not let the pigeon die in the tank.

[Loosir]

Not wild, Petsmarts, sorry, newbie. Should I try and treat him with anything, just blast away even if he's a goner? Do you think the whole tank needs something at this point? You are so wonderful to offer advice.
Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

We could try but Andrew's treatment but it has mixed results. Can you place this fish in a QT?

[Loosir]

I'll try a QT, I'm not set up but I'm learning fast. But leave the main tank alone for now right?
Thanks Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I would remove the fish for two reasons. One and primary reason is to protect your remaining stock. Second is to treat if wanted/needed.

[nc0gnet0]

I would lower the light intensity to help with the stress. Don't think salt dips are going to do anything in this case as it appears to be an internal issue. Something is effecting the fish's nervous system, be it a parasite,virus, bacterial, or toxin I am not sure.

[Loosir]

He's out of the main tank.
Got a QT tank, Jerry-rigged a HM filter out of one of my cycled poret dividers. added two TBS of salt to 10gals. No lights. 90 degs. The only antibiotic around that I can get is Seachem Metro. I think I would like to try that.

Question. Should I add the blue diamond to the QT also or wait to see if it ever whilrs?

Thanks all for the help today!

[nc0gnet0]

Not sure I would elevate the temperature until we know what we are fighting. No need to add additional stress to the fish. Set the temp back at 82.
As for the metro, I think it might be worth a shot, although I honestly don't know what we are dealing with, it might be my first guess medication. I wouldn't worry to much about the filter, just clean water staying on top of Wc's. Lets eliminate everything from the existing tank. If memory serves, and Andrew is correct, this is a blood born pathogen. Normally I don't like salt at all (other than a dip) but it's calming effects might buy you some time.

[nc0gnet0]

Can I ask how the neons are doing? How are they acting?

And where exactly are you located?

-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Geoff, we will need the filter as Andrew's treatment requires three days with no WCs (sorry Rick). So Geoff, how strong is that BB and how many gallons is the tank? Also we do not need an elevated temp so please ease the temp down as Rick's suggests.

[nc0gnet0]

Geoff, we will need the filter as Andrew's treatment requires three days with no WCs (sorry Rick). So Geoff, how strong is that BB and how many gallons is the tank? Also we do not need an elevated temp so please ease the temp down as Rick's suggests.

I am not against a filter per say, just would prefer it not to be from the tank in which the fish came from. Pat, can you outline Andrews treatment and why no water changes? Can't the meds just be replaced?

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, I will post Andrew's treatment post here when I find it. Currently looking thru the longest sick thread in SD history.

Reference thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87723-Very-Suddenly-Sick/page22&highlight=suddenly+very+sick

Some of Andrew's posts

Post #330


Oh....my mistake in the gallon and liter thing...ha! ha! ha! Sorry, Pat.

Anyway, though protozoa-infestation cannot be ignored, when it comes to this stage of body-stiffness and unable to right itself, bacterial infection is likely one of the causes. Further to that, te pupil usually seems to be dead which led to my presumption that there is endoparasite infestation and infection.

Common flagellates that can cause this is the blood flagellates cryptobia, trypanosoma or bodomonas. These can go to the brain along the bloodstream and suddenly healthy looking and feasting discus go crazy....whirling and darting and suddenly either float near surface or lie at the bottom of tank....and may die in due time.

Treatment can only be done as prophylactic before symptom shows and when the discus are still happily feasting. That's when they readily ingest medicated food.

Andrew


***Jeff...please don't say that...ha! ha!...and please don't shut-up....everyone's contribution is vital...

Post #339


Sorry, I left home and am driving now. just parked my ccar at the roadside and possting through my mobile. may get a fine but is o.k.......Pat will pay, right? i will explain more in detail when I get back....about the treatment and method.

yes, it is better to treat before symptom as once it is in this condition, it won't take medicated food. bacteria may be involved but the main cause is one or two I mentioned.

if it is due to ecternal infestation, a treatment with chemicals like masoten, formalin, PP, Malachite green or hydrogen peroxide plus salt would have reverse the condition immediatel......but as far as I know ....in most cases is non-reversible.

bye for now and talk later.

a ndrew

Post #340 - Andrew's treatment bolded in the quoted post below.


I am back! Sorry for all the wrong spellings....my mobile key board is too small....hmmm....

Yes, When the discus lies stiff and breathing slowly or glide lethagically near the surface, it literally means that aeration isn't the cause. It is neither the protozoan costia as the symptom of heavy infestation of costia is the dislodgement or dropping of large area of scales. Heavy infestation by chilodonella would also result in gill filaments being blocked thus sign of heavy breathing ....though slightly less heavy breathing than critical infestation by gill flukes.....

Imagine opening your skull and use a needle to tickle your nerve sensors. Serious damage will cause irreversible consequences while of course, those affected yet without permanent damage may recover which is about less than 2% through my years of observation.

If you/your breeders/suppliers have been feeding the discus with live or poorly prepared bloodworms or especially tubiflex worms, then there is a clear likelihood or chance that these active flagellates get into your discus population.

It is my belief that prophylactic treatment is extremely necessary. Quarantine without treatment is just a process to bring parasites to passive level and when you finally introduce the new discus (3 weeks later) into the existing stock, you are at the same time, introducing new 'friends' of similar strains (buddies) to those existing in your tank and at the same time, introducing whatever new parasites your existing discus may not have seen before. My book has explained the quarantine process....and is a long story......

Prophylactic for your case, Pat, is also explained in my books. You can use metronidazole @ a higher dose level. It should be able to eliminate all and must be applied in water and in feed. This may be slightly different from my book: Dissolve 3 gms in lukewarm water first and then add to 100 liters of water. You can redose every 8 hours but I prefer leaving it inside for 3 to 4 days, water change and redose. Total days:12. At the same time, add 1.5 to 2.0 gms to 100 of beefheart mix. These flagellates are hard to eliminate as compared to other flagellates like Hexamita or spiro.

Another drug that works well is Grabbrocol which is a dewormer for Pigeon...as in Pigeon. It is manufactured and sold in non-English speaking countries.

Further details....they are also in the book or you can ask those who have bought my books to explain in greater length.

Take care and hope that helps,

Andrew

[Second Hand Pat]

Geoff, as you can see from the bolded treatment in the post above treating one juvies might be costly so your choice as to treating the fish or not. Personally I was wait and observe to see if any other fish are affected. As so as one darts, please it in the QT with the other.

[nc0gnet0]

Did you try the treatment and did it work Pat?

I remember this post of Andrews, my memory was correct. I am not convinced his diagnosis is correct, but not convinced it is wrong either-kinda on the fence with that one, if that makes sense.

What gets me is if this is the case here, why the tetra's are not exhibiting the same symptoms, assuming they were the carriers?

[Loosir]

The BB is strong, I've never seen a trace of Nitrite or ammonia in the last three weeks and I put the first piece (the one that gets the most ammonia) of foam in the QT tank.
The tetras are fine, no problems except for the one that died last week, and so are the remaining 7 discus. I'm not including the blue diamond, but he looks good, his eyes are clear and he's not dark right now. I've dialed back the temp. I'm in suburban Philadelphia.

[Second Hand Pat]

Cool Geoff, stay the course.

Rick, sort of mixed results. Things settled for a while and it started all over again. A stronger metro based med was recommended and I had better results. I will need to spend some time finding the name of the med and it was only available by prescription from a vet. I helped a guy on FB as he was having the same issue and he had good results adding kanamycin with the metro. I also had him totally darken the tank and only expose the tank to light when feeding.

[Loosir]

Pat, Rick,
You're wonderful, thanks for giving me you time. I'll stay the course, the last twirl I've seen from any of my babies was the video from this afternoon before the QT. Here's hoping.
Geoff

[Second Hand Pat]

Geoff, as you can see from my description of mixed results why I suggested to isolate the fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok, the med I had better luck with is called Tinidazole and it is expensive.

[Loosir]

Thanks, I found at my LFS, neomycin. It's sea chem neoplex
Where did you find Tinidazole, I had to use what I could buy tonight, but I'm happy to learn from experience.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tinidazole is only available by prescription from a vet. I would suggest just observing the fish and culling if it does not improve. The cost of meds will quickly exceed the cost of the fish.

[nc0gnet0]

kanamycin with the metro

Those two mix well together.

If I had to ponder a guess, I might be inclined to say this was a viral disease, but it's just a guess. If it were, all you can do is to keep the fish as stress free as possible (lights out, etc etc) and hope the fish's immune system fights it back. The metro will give the fish's immune system a slight bump.

This is the only way I can explain to myself how the tetra's can be not effected but still be carriers. A blood born flagellate would not be as host specific generally speaking, and I would expect the tetra's to be effected.

-Rick

[Loosir]

So I moved the Blue Diamond into the QT this morning. It's eye was black and it was hiding in the same spot the others did. At first both the pigeon and diamond were all over the place, tilted swimming, dark, fast and agitated, but no darting or twirling. I tested the water and found a trace of ammonia so I did a WC and re-medicated. I'll keep this up instead of trying to keep the same water a few days. But the highlight here is "No Twirling" They are calmly hovering in the water like healthy fish, slow breathing.
Thanks for all the help, it's so nice to have such a great group of people to help me through this!