Please if you're online help!!!

[mountain_bike]

I am new to breeding and was curious if I should change the water in my breeding tank just hours after eggs were laid and fertilized. Let me explain, I've been trying to breed for a month now and last batch my pair did everything correct I was so so proud. They laid, male immediately fertilized and the female fanned the eggs for 36 hours before they turned white and then she kicked them all off the ceramic ornament they used to lay. But as I live in michigan in an area of hard water I thought that was the reason the eggs turned amber to Amber with black dots to white. I figured they were fertilized but couldn't hatch because I'm using straight tap with discus buffer ( my ph is over 8.4 don't know why that is. I use buffer opposed to r o because I don't have enough time)


So long story medium can someone tell me if I should change their water while in their new tank. It is 50 ro 50 tap, but because I seeded it with an existing sponge filter that was unclean the nitrates are over 20. They could be higher by the morning. I am just wondering if nitrates will affect eggs, not wigglers. I can do a very gentle water change in the morning but would I be better off doing it tonight? I have the aged r o all heated and ready to go. I just don't want to spook the pair but if a 20-30 nitrate reading will hurt the eggs I figure why not. I didn't think they would lay again 5 days later but I was wrong.

any advice would be appreciated thanks

[Chicago Discus]

I am new to breeding and was curious if I should change the water in my breeding tank just hours after eggs were laid and fertilized. Let me explain, I've been trying to breed for a month now and last batch my pair did everything correct I was so so proud. They laid, male immediately fertilized and the female fanned the eggs for 36 hours before they turned white and then she kicked them all off the ceramic ornament they used to lay. But as I live in michigan in an area of hard water I thought that was the reason the eggs turned amber to Amber with black dots to white. I figured they were fertilized but couldn't hatch because I'm using straight tap with discus buffer ( my ph is over 8.4 don't know why that is. I use buffer opposed to r o because I don't have enough time)


So long story medium can someone tell me if I should change their water while in their new tank. It is 50 ro 50 tap, but because I seeded it with an existing sponge filter that was unclean the nitrates are over 20. They could be higher by the morning. I am just wondering if nitrates will affect eggs, not wigglers. I can do a very gentle water change in the morning but would I be better off doing it tonight? I have the aged r o all heated and ready to go. I just don't want to spook the pair but if a 20-30 nitrate reading will hurt the eggs I figure why not. I didn't think they would lay again 5 days later but I was wrong.

any advice would be appreciated thanks

Dear Mr. Mountain,

Well me personally I wouldn't use Discus buffer. When I did use it in the past my PH would bounce all over the place. The 50/50 in my opinion is the better choice :). As far as water changes go I don't change my routine when the lay eggs. They still get daily water changes. If the eggs go out of the water for a few minutes its fine I do it all the time. The only tricky part is when they hatch and you have wigglers then I go to the top of the cone. The unclean sponge would also bother me you can transfer nasties to your fry when they hatch. The better option would be to use an air-stone. and a new sponge. But you will need to do heavy water changes. Good Luck.....Josie

[mountain_bike]

Thanks Josie I will take your advice and switch the sponge with a new one I have been using in my main tank. It is seeded but is less than 10 days old so should have bacteria but little nitrate.

And also I only use discus buffer because I lost two discus in straight tap. I know you are right and I should just use ro to mix since my tap is so bad but because of other reasons I just can find the time to make r o for my 75 gal main tank. I figure they are better off with a 4-5 x a week schedule with buffered water opposed to a once a week r o water change. I know discus buffer has a bad rep but for me I've never had a ph swing( I test daily) and my 2" discus have been grown to 6-7" successfully . So for now it will have to do on the main tank. But for the breeder I will take your advice ro and tap mix and no discus buffer!

Thanks for the quick reply, will post pics if I get wigglers

[mountain_bike]

I think you were very right about the sponge Josie. They had already started eating some eggs which they did not do the last 2 times they laid eggs. When I pulled the old sponge the blue diamond was so happy she was almost glowing in the blue light. Thats how I know shes happy, when she stops being a metallic blue color and turns a more luminescent blue. Also, I did not see any eggs being eaten since. I also Added the new water and between 70 - 100 eggs remain. Hopefully the eggs hatch but as they are a very young pair my hopes are low. Last time they laid there looked to be well over 200 eggs but at this point Ill take what I can get breeding discus is very difficult. I have much respect for anyone that has successfully done this, I am learning that keeping and breeding discus are two totally different things!

[nc0gnet0]

Not sure where in Michigan you live, but you may find that a 50/50 ro to tap mix is not enough and still to hard for a decent hatch. Do yourself a favor and invest in a little pen type TDS meter, take the guess work out of things. As for the sponge, it really shouldn't have effected nitrates in that way, not to that extent. All you needed to do was to take it out and give it a good rinse/squeeze in tank water.

[John_Nicholson]

Listen to the folks above and also throw the buffer away. It is not making your water any better.

-john

[mountain_bike]

Thanks for all the replies, and am very sorry for the late reply. August - September is very busy for me. I unfortunately didn't get wigglers. But expected the pair' first few weeks in the new tank would be a little rough. I appreciate the advice and would just like to explain the sponge filter was added from an existing tank. I wanted to make sure the tank would seed fast so I didn't bother cleaning the sponge for fear of losing too much bacteria. It hadn't been cleaned in over 10 days and within the first 24 hours of no fish in the tank I had a reading of 0 nitrite 0 ammonia and 15 nitrate. That is when I added the pair in and within a day the nitrate was much higher. Which is what caused me to get nervous. I had to add the pair in because they were becoming way too territorial in the main tank. I fixed this problem by cleaning the sponge very soon after I originally posted and now had enough bacteria in the water and switched the sponge on the filter. Now the tank is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 - 10 nitrate.

I really am curious what you meant by 50/50 isn't enough? I tried 50/50 and had very poor results also, my pH would be 6.8 when initially mixed and then would drop below 5 after 12 hours. I have been trying to figure out how people around me who breed discus keep their pH steady and TDS low. I have a TDS meter and really don't know what TDS to shoot for. or if it is even that simple. So when you say 50/50 isn't enough do you mean I should use more RO, and if so what ratio is good? I am afraid the less tap water I use the more the pH will swing (absence of buffers), So for the next week I slowly used more RO and used a little bit of discus buffer and neutral regulator. This did keep the pH in check very well, but my TDS is greater than on my main tank which is buffered heavily. My goal is to set this breeder up with no buffer, my tap water seems to be horrible so I just don't know how to do this. Any advice would be appreciated.

[nc0gnet0]

where are you located?
What is the tds of your tap?
What is the tds of your 50/50 tap/ro mix

I need those values

[mountain_bike]

TDS of tap : 132
TDS of 50/50 : 065
pH of 8.2

I live in Wixom

Thanks

[nc0gnet0]

TDS of tap : 132
TDS of 50/50 : 065
pH of 8.2

I live in Wixom

Thanks


my pH would be 6.8 when initially mixed and then would drop below 5 after 12 hours.

This is very interesting, your water is much different then mine. Are you sure it's not two females? And btw, you have relatively soft water, I would kill for water like that (mine TDS >450 ppm)

[mountain_bike]

Hmm I always thought I had bad water because I lost 2 small discus when I first started keeping them. I then added buffer and had success. But now as I am thinking about it my maintenance schedule and techniques are way different now. With all the people who have success at keeping discus in higher pH's I wonder if I should try to slowly go back to straight tap?

But my tap water is very strange, I tested with the same kit when I started my first reef tank a few months ago and it had a pH of 8.4. Also the conductivity of my tap is very high 450-500 microsiemens. Maybe I'll try a 70/30 tap Ro mix and see if it stabilizes pH.

[mountain_bike]

Also I am pretty sure they are not two females because only one lays the eggs. They both have their tubes out when the eggs are being layed and immediately after the one who doesnt lay the eggs makes several passes over the eggs. One spawn she laid over 200 eggs maybe more and about half looked to have a black dot inside. She fanned them all night and the male just sat there looking concerned. But after about 36 hours they started turning white. It was sad they then knocked all the eggs off the ornament very quickly like they were upset. So I was thinking they did get fertilized but being in my main tank thats buffered the water wouldnt allow them to hatch. Which is why I set up this small breeder, but they just don't seem happy in there and it's been about a month.

[nc0gnet0]

The fact that the ph of your 50/50 ro to tap drops so low makes me hesitate to tell you to add more RO. What I might do if I were you would be to pull the eggs next time around, place them in a heated tank with a 85% ro to 15% tap water mix and watch to see if you get any wigglers. This will confirm the pair. You can then try to add them back (screened) to the tank with the pair, which may or may not work, but our first goal is to see if we get any wigglers period.

[mountain_bike]

I don't have any extra tanks at the moment, but would a 5 gallon bucket work? If not I can always find a 10 gallon tank somewhere.

Also, should I use methylene blue? If so how should I go about doing this. (My bottle says 1 tsp per 10 gallons, but my lfs said add enough so you can barely see through the water)

Thanks again

[nc0gnet0]

a five gallon bucket would work fine, as long as you can keep the temperature consistent at 82-83 degrees. Biggest problem in smaller volumes of water is temperature fluctuation. I use meth blue at half dose, some don't use it at all.

[mountain_bike]

Thanks for all the advice I will update next time they spawn, I will put the eggs in a 5 gal bucket with a heater and airstone. I will use a greater r/o to tap ratio and just monitor the pH. I think this will work because with my 50/50 mix the pH was stable until I added fish. I think the eggs wont affect the pH like the pair did. It is a 6" cobalt that is mating with a 5" blue diamond. The blue diamond is still pretty young but has not grown since she started laying eggs. Will post pics soon. (I actually have pics of them on another thread I started before they paired up if you are curious)

[donnacona]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7W8e1dmdq4
Watch this video and it will answer many of the questions people ask about breeding and the egg cycle to hatching and free swimming stages.
That is a start for learning, the rest is putting it into practice.
Good luck

[mountain_bike]

Thank you for the video I watched a few minutes and was reminded of the bill nye days of my youth : ) i have a lot going on so I will not be able to finish it until next weekend but I look forward to it. Thank you again I am really looking forward to watching it.

Update: my pair had a huge spawn (over 150 eggs) I did not want to disturb them bc previous spawns in the new tank have been minimal, less than 75 eggs. No wigglers have been seen after 48 hrs but the fish are still watching and cleaning all eggs. I know it is a long shot but I will let them take care of the eggs for a few more days. If I get no wigglers this time I will put the eggs in a seperate tank with a much higher r o ratio as I am suspecting the male is infertile at this point. I wanted to do it this spawn but they have been good parents when need be, and this was the first spawn since I moved them that they are fanning and properly taking care of all eggs. Will update soon, and thanks again for the link, I love educational films!!!

[mountain_bike]

No luck so far so I decided remove my pair back in the main tank. They are bright as ever and seem happy as can be. Also, I am too busy at the moment to take care of spawn. I realized if they had babies I would not be able to do enough wc's so I think I will let them play with their friends and be happy until I have enough time.

I did this because the female laid a huge amount of eggs the male fertilized (or appeared to do so) in water with a TDS of 20. All other parameters were stable yet no wigglers. They started eating less and looking unhappy, so I put them back where they were happiest. Perhaps I will try again in the summer bc I seem to have another pair forming ( a very nice
Silver pigeon and a younger dark angel) thanks for the support and will update when I try again.


Also, does anyone know if a silver pigeon x dark angel cross is desirable? They are both very pink ( the silver pigeon has a bit of white also) but to me it looks as though they would make some cool offspring.

[mountain_bike]

It was two females, the cobalt I thought was a boy layed a tiny batch before the blue diamond picked them all off. I now know why I never saw eggs between the blue diamonds spawns. But back to square one and am now planning to buy a new tank when I have some time and grow some more out. I just don't understand why the cobalt would make passes over the blue diamonds eggs, I wonder if that's common in female female pairs.

Thanks again for all the advice will post up if I get a new pair. I do have a couple that are getting to breeding size so we shall see.