Adult wilds not exactly hiding, but inactive...would dither fish help.

[adapted]

I've had 8 adult Alenquers in a sand bottom 120 G tank for four months now and everything is fine with once exception: They all seem too stationary. They come forward when they think I'm about to feed them, but otherwsie they stay almost stock still all day, especialy when the LED light is on. (The room lights don't seem to bother them much.)

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has had any success adding a shoal of cardinal tetras or the like in this situation. I have an opportunity to get 40 or so cheap this week, but I'm only interested if they woud actually make the main inhabitants a little more adventurous.

-- Pretty sure water quality is not the issue here... the tank is understocked and overfiltered, the environment is calm, and I change at least half the water every day with aged, soft water. Tank pH ranges from 5.8 to 6.3. Water changes have no noticeable effect...

[Dutch dude]

Hi there,

- I don't think the tank is understocked and for wilds the tank is full stocked.

- I do think your water changing regime is way out of line. Wilds prefer stable water quality and won't handle large water changes every day (I suggest to read the post about whirling). Best is to do 2 or 3 times a week a 30% to 40% water change.

- How about the LED lights,...high light intensity or shimmering light?

- What is the temperature?

- Do you add tap water or RO water or a mix? (what is the conductivity/TDS)

- How do you soften the water?

- What type of filtration?

It is very obvious your fish don't feel happy and I'm fairly sure tetras won't solve the issue and the reason for the behaviour is in the environment and routines.

[adapted]

Thanks for the reply. I should have mentioned the 40 gallon sump, which with the 120 G tank nominally allows for 20 gallons per fish which most would consider understocked.

The LED light (Current USA Satellite) is usually turned off... they don't like it so I usuallly just go with room lighting or natural sunlight through curtains... the tank is usually quite dark by any reasonable standard

TDS is about 45 - 60. Filtration is AQ110, Hydrosponge 5, Eheim 2217, plus a Purigen reactor in the sump and a couple more sponges. Temp is 82.5, never varies more than half a degree. The water is naturally soft, KH about 2 out of the faucet. The pH settles to around 6.5 in the aging barrel; the tank pH doesn't change appreciably after a water change-- usually around 6.0. I should have also mentioned that I change about a third of the water twice a day, mostly from siphoning, so there is no big change in parameters.

The main thing I agree with you about is that they are not happy. They eat like crazy and they're growing, but their demeanor says something is sub-optimal somewhere. I have some suspended driftwood over about half the tank and they spend almost all their time under it. (One of the more dominant fish ventures out by himself a good bit, but no others follow.)

[plecocicho]

I would also add that wilds appreciate cover, especially if there is a bright light. I alsonrecently removed my valisneria and they didnt appreciate it either. Now i am looking for some appropriate driftwood.

[Dutch dude]

The sump makes definitely a large difference. 20 gallon per fish is normal stock level for wilds dough. I wonder if the led light isn't too strong but it is hard to tell from the other side of the world (-;
In my opinion your TDS is to low. Nice for breeding but to low in the long run. I suggest a TDS around 150 if this is possible without adding chemicals. I also suggest to bring the temp up to 85C. I still suggest to read the whirling treat and look what experiences people have in regards large water changes on wilds.

[Second Hand Pat]

Adapted, can you post a video when they are eating. I would like to see their feeding response. When you approach the tank do they come forward eagerly? Are they showing bars? Also if you are not have issues with darting/whirling then large WCs are fine. I do 90% WCs on my young Tefe tank and 50/60% on my 240 on a regular basis. Are your LEDs dim-able?

[nc0gnet0]

Are they hiding/cowering, or are they just relatively inactive? Big difference there. Is it possible that with all your filtration you have a little too much current, and they just prefer to stay in an area the provides them some break from it?

Personally I think your water change regime is just fine. I have read the whirling thread, and I am a skeptic, while large water changes may have an effect on an infected fish, I do not believe it to be the cause of the problem, rather just something that MAY aggravate it.

-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, you are correct. Large WCs only affect infected fish. I know this from experience.
Pat

[adapted]

Thanks, Pat and Rick. I will try to post a video soon, but in the meantime:

When I feed Cobalt flakes, they always rise to meet the falling food and go after the particles with deliberation. One dominant fish is always first, the others hang back. I would say that they are more cautious and tentative than most discus feeding videos I've seen but not dramatically so. (This is under room light only; with the LED on, they would be still more hesitant.)

I haven't fed red wigglers lately, but they use to all (except the dominant one, for some reason) tear into them, as aggressively as discus ever eat anything, with maybe the exception of live blackworms or live mosquito larvae.

Rick, I would say they hang back rather than hide or cower, and as I said there is one that is always eager. But they are definitely inactive for hours at a time.

When I enter the room, they come to the front fairly eagerly, though maybe less so in the last week or two. There really isn't much current judging from food particle flow, and what there is mostly comes from the AQ 110. I turn it off for feedings and it does not seem to have any effect if left off for an hour or two.


They eat Hikari frozen blackworms a little less eagerly now than before... I chalked that up to what seems like a preference for Cobalt flakes, because when I started with a primarily flake diet two weeks ago, they relative lack of interest in the FBW started.



I would say they have gotten more skittish in the last week or so, but never any whirling behavior..


Stress bars are rarely visible... the low man (sometimes two) in the pecking order shows them some, but not often. There's a lot of territorial squabbling, but nothing that serious, just posturing reallly.

The only other symptom I have noticed is three or four occasions oer the past three months when one fish at a time will clamp one gill for a few hours. This goes away on its on; seems to be stress related as it never visits the more dominant fish. I treated them to a round of Prazipro on two occasions... there is little or no flashing or scratching. Overall they seem to breathe easily, slower than I usually see in online videos.


Thanks for replies... I will work on the video -- been keeping the tank so dim it may be a challenge without subjecting them to a temporary lighting boost...

[Larry Bugg]

I wouldn't change the temp. I keep my wilds and domestics both at 82. Perfect temp. I also wouldn't worry so much about the large water changes. I normally do 40% to 50% on my wild tanks (220, 125, 125 and now the 110). Sometimes my wilds seem to just sit and chill while other times they can be quite active. I have kept wild with no issues at 10 gallons per adult but because I'm interested in getting them to breed I now am shooting for 1 per 20 gallons. Your stocking should be fine IMO.

[adapted]

Thanks or the reply Larry. I don't think the issue is water changes or temperature, either.

Something changed about ten days ago... they're skittish now and they never were before. I have to suspect a water quality issue despite everything I said earlier. I'm going to clean every filter, change most of their water out and not feed them for a day or two and see if anything changes...

[pcsb23]

You mentioned earlier that you changed their diet around two weeks ago ... I don't believe in coincidences ;)

These are wild caught fish so bright overhead light will cause them to seek cover, one of their main predators comes from above (birds). They will adapt in time, but lower lighting levels are preferable imo as they are more natural. The behaviour of one dominant out in front is typical in wild discus too.

As for the water changes, as long as the new water has been de-gassed I really wouldn't worry over much, discus are quite capable of dealing with pH swings, they have evolved that way. I agree with Larry re the temps, they seem fine to me.

I'd be leery changing too much too soon as you won't know what the issue was and may form the wrong conclusions.

[adapted]

Thanks Paul... Right now I'm keeping the tank dark (just room light and not much of that) as there is absolutely no doubt that they prefer that.

There are a couple of variables in play in addition to a change from red wigglers/frozen Mysis/ frozen bloodworms. One is that the new canister filter is now about a month old and may need cleaning. (I keep a good pre-filter on it... it's an Eheim 2217) Also the sump may be causing a problem with a buildup of the stuff that grows inside tubing.

The diet issue may be that since it is so easy to feed the flakes, I may have been overdoing it. So I'm going to cut back on food for awhile... these are big thick fish and they don't need to be adding size anyway.

Anyway, something I'm missing has caused a behavior change, and I know just enough about these fish to know that it is most likely a water quality issue. I'm at a loss because I siphon thoroughly twice a day, change 50% a day, have a high quality 25W UV running in addition to a decent Purigen reactor, filter socks and multiple sponges in the sump. As I said, water changes do not effect their demeanor in any obvious way.


Anyway, I will be feeding less and cleaning all filter media while keeping the light down. I will report back if anything changes.

(Pat had asked for a video, but it is currently too dark to shoot anythjing that would be useful.)

[Second Hand Pat]

It's ok as you know there is something definitely up. I hope your filter cleaning has a positive effect. Perhaps I may suggest a few larger then 50% WC after the filter cleaning for a couple of days.

[adapted]

Thanks Pat. I had thought about a larger water change as well. I will definitely do as you suggest after cleaning the sump and filter media.

[adapted]

They no longer venture out like this... (photo from about 8 weeks ago)

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t450/mcsadapted/P1040284_zps79f23793.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/mcsadapted/media/P1040284_zps79f23793.jpg.html)

[YSS]

Wow! Those are some nice looking wilds. Hope you get your issues sorted out.

[Second Hand Pat]

They no longer venture out like this... (photo from about 8 weeks ago)

http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t450/mcsadapted/P1040284_zps79f23793.jpg (http://s1060.photobucket.com/user/mcsadapted/media/P1040284_zps79f23793.jpg.html)

These guys are gorgeous. Hope you get them sorted out.

[adapted]

Thanks for nice words, but don't let the fish hear you... they're already as conceited as hell. (At least when they're feeling good.)

I just thought of one more variable: the sand substrate is no longer covering the whole bottom. (I lose a little every day siphoning.) I'm going to add enough back for 100% coverage and see if they notice or care.

Anyway, this is not a huge deal: The fish are eating and looking good, breathing slowly, fins up and all that. They're just very tentatative for about two weeks now. I'm going to change one thing at a time so I can possibly pinpoint the cause and avoid it in the future.

I've already taken the sump out of the loop; next will be breaking down the Eheim. If I can get this corrected I will have learned something and will gladly share it with the Forum.

[Mapet]

Do you have a microscope?

[adapted]

Do you have a microscope?

No but I could probably arrange to borrow one... what did you have in mind?

[pcsb23]

Their behaviour is not indicative of any illness or parasite, however there would be no harm in eliminating that possibility by using a scope.

I've had sumps running on the same hard piping for many years, with no cleaning of the pipes, with wild caught discus and altums on it, also with extremely soft water. Not once did I feel the sump caused any issues. We get too hung up about "clean" filters, we need to focus on clean water, both biologically and chemically. Sterile environments are counter productive ime/o - the only time and place for sterile is when treating sick fish.

As an aside and given that these are not wild caught fish, Stendker uses a sump based system and they never clean it or the sponges - ever! Food for thought.

The sand on the floor may help btw, it is a quick, easy and cheap fix :)

[YSS]

By the way, where did you get the fish?

[adapted]

By the way, where did you get the fish?
John at Freshwater TRopicals...

[YSS]

John at Freshwater TRopicals...

Do you feed color enhancers?

[adapted]

No: Red wigglers, frozen mysis shrimp, frozen bloodworms and Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef flake. Since the photo was taken I've fed Cobalt Discus flakes.

(I have a fairly good digital camera that manages to pull all the available light and maximize exposure without a flash. The camera sensor makes the images brighter than what I see with just my eyes.)

[tolga]

Hi I know you said it's not a water quality issue but my suggestion would be to check your supply water. The quality might have deteriorated in the last few weeks as we know this happens sometimes. You don't want any heavy metals in there. Also the TDS reading does not give us the complete picture. It does not distinguish between hardness causing substances such as bicarbonates that shows up on your KH reading and other essential minerals such as calcium, magnesium and potassium which does not affect your KH but perform an important role in creating some kind of a chemical balance in the aquarium which helps with the process of osmoregulation of the fish. If these minerals are not present in your water supply you could try to add them to you ageing barrel. There are products that raise the GH without raising the KH. I'm only bringing this up because of my own experience with wild heckels. The water change issue is related to this question of chemical balance in my opinion. You say your water in the barrel stabilises at 6.5ph and the water in the tank is 5.8 to 6ph. Most discus would have absolutely no problems in adopting to such small swings but my heckels are different in that they show signs of stress when there are minor swings like that and then they get back to their usual playful selves when the water stabilises. In my two year experience with wild heckels (which might not be relevant to all wild discus), when ever they appear withdrawn, it is almost always caused by water chemistry issues. Surface cover definitely helps and in a big way but water chemistry and stability is the thing to watch out. When it's all okay, they may even adapt to your existing lighting. Also I agree with the previous point about the filter cleaning. If you have pre-filters I would just clean those regularly and leave the main biological filters undisturbed. The filters should not have required major cleaning after four months especially when you've got a purigen reactor. But any how as I've said I'm not an expert and I'm just throwing some ideas to help if I can. Good luck

[nc0gnet0]

Personally I would look for external agents that are not in the tank but might be causing the fish some sense of insecurity. Something more like external vibrations, noise, different lighting from a window, etc etc.

It could also be that a one time occurrence spooked your fish quite a bit, and they have not yet fully recovered and are still a bit on edge.

ps. I didn't think these were heckles?

[tolga]

"... In my two year experience with wild heckels (which might not be relevant to all wild discus)..."

[adapted]

Well, I'm not ruling out anything. Before 10 days ago, they had never freaked out and dashed around the tank wildly. Now they have done it maybe 5 times in the last week.

The trigger each time has been an unexpected movement, like a pillow or shirt dropping to the floor, or just walking by the tank with a gallon milk jug. It as if for some reason they have determined that I'm a threat. They don't worry about me siphoning the tank... it's been each time motion outside the tank. This didn't bother them at all before, now they are regularly panicked by it. Odd. They're acting like there's a peacock bass at the edge of their space about to swallow them all.

[Mapet]

No but I could probably arrange to borrow one... what did you have in mind?
Because they may have nematodes and trematodes on the gills and skin like mine.
If you can place your 20-second video, manure and mud from the filter, and write the magnification.
This can help. Mine are now healthy and eat like pigs. ;)


John at Freshwater TRopicals...
We have the same fish from the same guy, just I bought a medium large sized. :)

[adapted]

I don't think is microbial, but I guess anything is possible. The fish look great, they eat and have the proper posture and breathing rate. They just got shy all of a sudden, and occaisonally skittish.


I think, as Rick mentioned, it is a non-disease issue. I put a piece of driftwood (a big one) back in the tank and am waiting to see if they may have over reacted to that in a delayed manner... it didn't seem to bother them at all when I removed it two or three weeks ago.

[OC Discus]

What about the change in ph/water chemistry from the driftwood. Could that have a sedating effect?


I don't think is microbial, but I guess anythinug is possible. The fish look great, they eat and have the proper posture and brething rate. They just got shy all of a sudden, and occaisonally skittish.


I think, as Rick mentioned, it is a non-disease issue. I put a piece of driftwood (a big one) back in the tank and am waiting to see if they may have over reacted to that in a delayed manner... it ididn't seem to bother them at all when I removed it two or three weeks ago.

[adapted]

The pH has been fairly stable for last several weeks 5.6 to 6.3.

[Mapet]

I don't think is microbial, but I guess anything is possible. The fish look great, they eat and have the proper posture and breathing rate. They just got shy all of a sudden, and occaisonally skittish.

With my was almost the same, two weeks after they came to me.
Follow whether their skin does not get matt.

[adapted]

It looks like replacing the driftwood may be the difference. Strange to think that removing one piece of wood from the tank would alter their behavior that much after two weeks.

[adapted]

Mystery resolved: I put a large piece of vertically oriented (suspended) driftwood back in the tank last night, just as it had been ywo weeks ago and these silly fish decided all is right with the world. Theyr'e back to nonstop squabbling, nudging, power-kissing and eating everything that falls in the water.

Lesson: Discus have long memories and little things can cuase pretty dramatic behavior changes. The odd thing is that they didn't react right away... they got skittish first, then shy over the next week.


Anway, Rick wins the Internet Diagnosis award for his hunch that it was something in their surroundings other than a WQ or disease issue. Thanks to everyone kind enough to offer a suggestion.