Are bloodworms good?

[J.M Discus]

I have been keeping discus for months now and feeding my discus bloodworms. But after reading i found out bloodworms would be more like a treat. What food can i try that are high in protein but i don't want any food that can change their colors or at least enhances all colors like yellow, blue, and red.

[ericNH]

by some lean beef. beefheart, or similar. trim fat and veiny stuff off. throw chunks of it into a food processor with some nutrtious flake, blend until its a paste. freeze it in a ziploc bag. break off chunks to feed your discus.

[DISCUS STU]

I feed bloodworms as a treat and sometimes to try to help with getting the fish into breeding shape. If you look at the nutritional breakdown of bloodworms they don't really have much protein which is essential for good growth and health. Frozen brine shrimp is similar and also has very little protein.

Outside of Beef heart, now Turkey heart recipe, I feed...
a. Tetra Bits (which does have color enhancers and red food dye to attract the fish)
b. Hikari Bio Gold (expensive but good, beef heart based)
c. Freeze dried tubifex worm cubes (high in protein)
d. Various flake foods.

When they stop eating the other things and ONLY eat bloodworms, the next step may be that they stop eating entirely and then I have to do something to help them.

If you're fish are only used to bloodworms and don't want to eat or recognize anything else as food, you may want to gradually introduce the other things along with the bloodworms until they start eating the new food. It may take a little while.

[discuspaul]

Hard to beat Al's Australian Freeze-Dried Blackworms for nutritional protein content. See CTDiscus.com in the sponsor section for ordering.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hard to beat Al's Australian Freeze-Dried Blackworms for nutritional protein content. See CTDiscus.com in the sponsor section for ordering.

Paul, it is actually http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?59-AquaticSuppliers-Freeze-Dried-Black-Worms-%28Al-Sabetta%29-Northford-Connecticut :D

[OC Discus]

Omega One Freeze Dried Bloodworms contain 55% Crude Protein and Freeze Dried Brine Shrimp contain 48% Crude Protein. That is higher than any commercial flake or pellet that I've seen. I like Eric's idea of making a beefheart mix using a good high vitamin flake. Most Flakes and Pellets are actually low protein- +/- 35%.


I feed bloodworms as a treat and sometimes to try to help with getting the fish into breeding shape. If you look at the nutritional breakdown of bloodworms they don't really have much protein which is essential for good growth and health. Frozen brine shrimp is similar and also has very little protein.

Outside of Beef heart, now Turkey heart recipe, I feed...
a. Tetra Bits (which does have color enhancers and red food dye to attract the fish)
b. Hikari Bio Gold (expensive but good, beef heart based)
c. Freeze dried tubifex worm cubes (high in protein)
d. Various flake foods.

When they stop eating the other things and ONLY eat bloodworms, the next step may be that they stop eating entirely and then I have to do something to help them.

If you're fish are only used to bloodworms and don't want to eat or recognize anything else as food, you may want to gradually introduce the other things along with the bloodworms until they start eating the new food. It may take a little while.

[nc0gnet0]

Most Flakes and Pellets are actually low protein- +/- 35%.



Ocean Nutrition formula one flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 56.3%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.1%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.9%
Moisture (max.) — 4.6%
Ash (max.) — 5.4%
Phosphorus (min)—0.6%

Prime Reef flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 55.4%
Crude Fat (min.) — 10.8%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.6%
Moisture (max.) — 7.3%
Ash (max.) — 6.0%

Brine shrimp plus flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 50.0%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 3.0%
Moisture (max.) — 7.5%
Ash (max.) — 7.3%

Brine Shrimp Direct Beefheart plus flake:

Protein 47%

BSD Marine Slow Sinking Pellets 1 MM

Ingredients:
Squid meal, herring meal, shrimp meal, whole wheat flour, soy meal, wheat gluten, refined marine fish oil, carotenoid pigments, brewer’s yeast, spirulina algae, garlic, lecithin, vitamin A acetate, DL- Alphatocopherol (Vit. E), D-Activated Animal Sterol (Vit. D3), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyrodoxine HCL, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbal-2-Polyphosphate (Stabilized Vit. C), Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein (Min.); 50%, Lipids (Min.); 8%, Fiber (Max.); 4%, Ash (Max.); 12%, Moisture (Max.); 8%, Astaxanthin 80 ppm

I could go on and on. Not sure where you get your info, but there are plenty of good quality flakes on the market, you just don't find them at PetCo.

[discuspaul]

Rubish

Ocean Nutrition formula one flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 56.3%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.1%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.9%
Moisture (max.) — 4.6%
Ash (max.) — 5.4%
Phosphorus (min)—0.6%

Prime Reef flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 55.4%
Crude Fat (min.) — 10.8%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.6%
Moisture (max.) — 7.3%
Ash (max.) — 6.0%

Brine shrimp plus flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 50.0%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 3.0%
Moisture (max.) — 7.5%
Ash (max.) — 7.3%

Brine Shrimp Direct Beefheart plus flake:

Protein 47%

BSD Marine Slow Sinking Pellets 1 MM

Ingredients:
Squid meal, herring meal, shrimp meal, whole wheat flour, soy meal, wheat gluten, refined marine fish oil, carotenoid pigments, brewer’s yeast, spirulina algae, garlic, lecithin, vitamin A acetate, DL- Alphatocopherol (Vit. E), D-Activated Animal Sterol (Vit. D3), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyrodoxine HCL, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbal-2-Polyphosphate (Stabilized Vit. C), Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein (Min.); 50%, Lipids (Min.); 8%, Fiber (Max.); 4%, Ash (Max.); 12%, Moisture (Max.); 8%, Astaxanthin 80 ppm

I could go on and on. Not sure where you get your info, but there are plenty of good quality flakes on the market, you just don't find them at PetCo.


Very interesting information. A lot of comparison research, Rick.

[DISCUS STU]

Omega One Freeze Dried Bloodworms contain 55% Crude Protein and Freeze Dried Brine Shrimp contain 48% Crude Protein. That is higher than any commercial flake or pellet that I've seen. I like Eric's idea of making a beefheart mix using a good high vitamin flake. Most Flakes and Pellets are actually low protein- +/- 35%.

If you read the original post and my response it was about frozen blood worms, the original context of the post and their low protein content, not about whether there is a processed blood worm flake or brine shrimp flake out there that is high protein. I also addressed frozen brine shrimp, which is also commonly used by newbies, but again has very little nutritional value.

The rest of my post was in regard to things I've found that have worked for me. To expand on these in regard to protein content; Hikari Discus Bio Gold 50%, Tetra Bits are 47.5% protein, SF Bay Brand Tubifex Worms 50%. Though I'm glad for the other responses and may seek out these higher protein flakes. Glad for the information on the forum, especially when it's good information.

[nc0gnet0]

If you look at the nutritional breakdown of bloodworms they don't really have much protein which is essential for good growth and health. Frozen brine shrimp is similar and also has very little protein.

While I am a big user of Al's FDBW, I have to say, this argument is flawed. A freeze dried bloodworm will have almost identical protein levels as that of a freeze dried blackworm or freeze dried tubifex worms. The freeze drying doesn't add protein, it removes water weight. As soon as a freeze dried product hits the water it then regains most of its water weight through absorption. The same can be said for flakes and pellets as well. The point I am trying to make here is that you need to take into account moisture content. This same argument is made when comparisons are made with dry dog food verses canned or even a raw diet.

There are many reasons to prefer other products over frozen bloodworms, but the protein argument is incorrect.

[pastry]

While I am a big user of Al's FDBW, I have to say, this argument is flawed. A freeze dried bloodworm will have almost identical protein levels as that of a freeze dried blackworm or freeze dried tubifex worms. The freeze drying doesn't add protein, it removes water weight. As soon as a freeze dried product hits the water it then regains most of its water weight through absorption. The same can be said for flakes and pellets as well. The point I am trying to make here is that you need to take into account moisture content. This same argument is made when comparisons are made with dry dog food verses canned or even a raw diet.

There are many reasons to prefer other products over frozen bloodworms, but the protein argument is incorrect.

+1

[DISCUS STU]

While freeze dried bloodworms have a relatively high protein content, frozen bloodworms do not at roughly 4.0% protein.
http://www.sfbb.com/Bloodworms_39.php

Their brine shrimp has 6.08% protein. Most other producers of the frozen stuff have about the same content. I responded to the original post in regard to frozen bloodworms, not freeze dried or flakes, though it's really good to see all this information on products with relatively high protein content. BTW, I assumed the post was about frozen bloodworms and again responded in kind due the fact that the poster mentioned using it only as a treat. I still feed frozen blood worms as a treat, as in the original post. The fish love it and go nuts for it, but the content is 95% water.

Maybe someone has a helpful explanation of how frozen is so low in protein vs. how freeze drying or flake has such a high content. I could guess, but that's all it would be.

[nc0gnet0]

Maybe someone has a helpful explanation of how frozen is so low in protein vs. how freeze drying or flake has such a high content. I could guess, but that's all it would be.

I thought I had. It's the water content, that has 0 protein that makes up the majority of the weight. Protein analysis is done on a percentage of weight, when water makes up 95% of that weight, you will naturally (and falsely) see a lower protein content. But, in total protein, one freeze dried bloodworm would have the same amount of protein as a frozen bloodworm.

Same applies to pellets and flakes, cooking the product in an oven will also remove water content. Over cooking the product will result in a higher protein level at the expense of destroying much of the valuable oils (omega 3 etc). So, take this into account when label shopping, Higher protein does not always equal a better product. High protein pellets with very little moisture can also contribute to bloat, which can be over come by re-soaking in water, which is rather ironic isn't it?

:)

[DISCUS STU]

It practical terms, wouldn't it still require a large amount of frozen bloodworms to deliver the same amount of protein as freeze dried or flaked bloodworms? Frozen bloodworms are still 95% water by weight.:)

[nc0gnet0]

It practical terms, wouldn't it still require a large amount of frozen bloodworms to deliver the same amount of protein as freeze dried or flaked bloodworms? Frozen bloodworms are still 95% water by weight.

Bloodworms by quantity or bloodworms by weight? Again, your missing the point, If you and I were to sit done to a meal of (yum) bloodworms, yes we would be able to consume more freeze dried worms as opposed to the frozen variety, due to the fact we would be consuming less water and therefore more actual worms/protein (at least until we drank some water, in which case they would expand in our stomachs making us feel full).

However, when a freeze dried worm is placed back into water, it re-hydrates, bringing it back on par (protein vs water) with the frozen bloodworm, ergo, the protein content, when consumed by the fish, is roughly the same. In the cases when it is eaten so fast as to have not re-hydrated completely, it will just re-hydrate within the fish's stomach (in extreme cases this can lead to bloat).

Flake foods and pellets also experience this same phenomena (albeit to slightly less degrees).......

-Rick

[nc0gnet0]

Having said all this, don't get me wrong, I am a huge advocate of freeze dried blackworms. I probably feed more FDBW's then any user on this forum. The advantages are many, just that the high vs low protein argument needs to be put to rest. The real advantages are convenience, economics (your not paying for water), shelf life, and pathogen removal/sterilization. In regards to the last, I am still not sure I would feed tubifex worms in any shape or form.

[DISCUS STU]

My point was that frozen, hydrated bloodworms are still relatively low in protein and there are other foods that are better for a higher protein diet. It would still require large and expensive amounts to satisfy a Discus's requirement for protein if fed on a daily basis as a sole source food. Again referring to the original post. I buy from a local pet shop in the 2 lb. large size. Still expensive, and even more expensive if feeding a large number of fish.

Regards,

Stu

[nc0gnet0]

It would still require large and expensive amounts to satisfy a Discus's requirement for protein if fed on a daily basis as a sole source food.

I can agree to this statement, economics is a major advantage of the freeze dried product.


My point was that frozen, hydrated bloodworms are still relatively low in protein and there are other foods that are better for a higher protein diet.

And my point is that all foods, when placed into the water will absorb water before being eaten, making this argument nowhere near as night and day as you suggest. Frozen bloodworms are not quite as nutritionally useless as many would lead you to believe, they are however a PITA, and the main problem is fish like them so much if fed to often they may refuse other foods. Which leads me to the next statement....

The real key is to feed your fish a diet that consists of a decent variety of form/sources. I do not advocate the feeding of anyone food exclusively. Frozen bloodworms, if used correctly, can be one of the foods being fed in such a diet. If I were to be forced to feed only one food type, it would be that of a good beefheart/seafood mix, which is about as complete a food as your going to get. But, as I breed a lot of fish, I need to also consider what my potential customers might feed, and to that end like to see my fish not only eagerly accept a frozen or freeze dried worm, but a flake and a pellet as well.

-Rick

[OC Discus]

Can't argue with the facts. Thanks for sharing some good flake alternatives.


Ocean Nutrition formula one flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 56.3%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.1%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.9%
Moisture (max.) — 4.6%
Ash (max.) — 5.4%
Phosphorus (min)—0.6%

Prime Reef flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 55.4%
Crude Fat (min.) — 10.8%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 0.6%
Moisture (max.) — 7.3%
Ash (max.) — 6.0%

Brine shrimp plus flakes:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) — 50.0%
Crude Fat (min.) — 13.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) — 3.0%
Moisture (max.) — 7.5%
Ash (max.) — 7.3%

Brine Shrimp Direct Beefheart plus flake:

Protein 47%

BSD Marine Slow Sinking Pellets 1 MM

Ingredients:
Squid meal, herring meal, shrimp meal, whole wheat flour, soy meal, wheat gluten, refined marine fish oil, carotenoid pigments, brewer’s yeast, spirulina algae, garlic, lecithin, vitamin A acetate, DL- Alphatocopherol (Vit. E), D-Activated Animal Sterol (Vit. D3), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Thiamine, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyrodoxine HCL, Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbal-2-Polyphosphate (Stabilized Vit. C), Choline Chloride, Cobalt Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate.

Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein (Min.); 50%, Lipids (Min.); 8%, Fiber (Max.); 4%, Ash (Max.); 12%, Moisture (Max.); 8%, Astaxanthin 80 ppm

I could go on and on. Not sure where you get your info, but there are plenty of good quality flakes on the market, you just don't find them at PetCo.

[J.M Discus]

Thanks everyone for helping me! I'm going to pick up Ocean Nutrition and I've seen some recipes and mixes, so I just need to pick up the ingredients.

[DISCUS STU]

Good luck! Though luck is only a small part and the work is most of it. Bet you never thought a simple question would create so much feedback. All the info. is good and for me the key is a variety in the diet. I also use use a good beef heart/turkey heart recipe with seafood protein.

While a good diet is very important, water quality always has to come first. Otherwise all the money and time spent on the food is wasted.

[J.M Discus]

Good luck! Though luck is only a small part and the work is most of it. Bet you never thought a simple question would create so much feedback. All the info. is good and for me the key is a variety in the diet. I also use use a good beef heart/turkey heart recipe with seafood protein.

While a good diet is very important, water quality always has to come first. Otherwise all the money and time spent on the food is wasted.Thanks, I checked the protein on the bloodworms and they only had .6% so i picked up some Ocean Nutrition flakes that have 52.5% which is a huge difference. I am also going to make my own beef hear mix.

[MSD]

Why is this so hard to understand, compare flakes to freeze dried worms to make an apples to apples comparison. Or, use wet flakes (sarcasm) to compare to the frozen variety. The worms have the protein not the water, it's sold frozen because some fish prefer the more lifelike frozen worms as do their owners. Is this so difficult to comprehend?

[klannin]

Is there any difference in the digestibility and nutrient absorption when comparing dry and frozen foods? Especially regarding pellets and tetra bits. They can pack more in their tummies at once, but is this necessarily a good thing? And what about nutrients and cell structure lost in drying and processing?

Just thinking that id rather pay more for fresh frozen foods if I can feed them less and them actually absorb more, instead or something they will gorge on and just poop out.

Kelly

[OC Discus]

Kelly,

Nutritionally, little to nothing is lost in freeze drying. It does seem more common for young fry to develop bloat issues when getting started on freeze dried food than when fed frozen. If they quickly gorge themselves on freeze dried it can expand in their stomachs sometimes causing constipation, bloat, that could develop into an infection, and/or swim bladder issues. When mine were 2-3" I had one get bloated and dosed with Epsom Salt. Since then I've fed freeze dried daily without any issues for about a year.


Is there any difference in the digestibility and nutrient absorption when comparing dry and frozen foods? Especially regarding pellets and tetra bits. They can pack more in their tummies at once, but is this necessarily a good thing? And what about nutrients and cell structure lost in drying and processing?

Just thinking that id rather pay more for fresh frozen foods if I can feed them less and them actually absorb more, instead or something they will gorge on and just poop out.

Kelly

[nc0gnet0]

Kelly,

Nutritionally, little to nothing is lost in freeze drying. It does seem more common for young fry to develop bloat issues when getting started on freeze dried food than when fed frozen. If they quickly gorge themselves on freeze dried it can expand in their stomachs sometimes causing constipation, bloat, that could develop into an infection, and/or swim bladder issues. When mine were 2-3" I had one get bloated and dosed with Epsom Salt. Since then I've fed freeze dried daily without any issues for about a year.

You base this claim off of one instance?

[OC Discus]

One experience combined with research. Is it wrong or do you just like to be negative?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nc0gnet0]

One experience combined with research. Is it wrong or do you just like to be negative?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Negative? No, I just hate it when people jump to conclusions with nothing to back up the claim. Where did this research take place? Not to be rude, but I am fairly certain that I have raised quite a few more young fish than you, all of which have been fed FDBW's as a staple, and for me bloat has not been a problem.

[OC Discus]

I read it on SD so it must be true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[klannin]

You base this claim off of one instance?

Well common sense tells you not to eat dehydrated food and drink a bunch of water. Our eat such if you live in an aquatic habitat. That makes sense. My question more pertains to the nutrient absorbtion of foods. With my dogs, there is a point where increased intake of nutrients has no effect. It gets capped out. And with fish that may negatively affect the quality of their environment in a way that may be preventable.

There are tons of studies with Mammals about this, was wondering if anyone has studied this in discus.

[OC Discus]

Kelly,

I don't know why some people wont respond to a question until they feel like they can slam someone else's answer. But to your last question, for the first 6-12 months, maybe 24 months, all they eat will contribute to growth. After they are fully grown, many cut back on feeding to prevent what you are referring to. I'm sure someone else has a better answer. But that's mine and I'm sticking to it.

[nc0gnet0]

Well common sense tells you not to eat dehydrated food and drink a bunch of water. Our eat such if you live in an aquatic habitat. That makes sense.

it also tells you that as soon as a freeze dried natural food hits the water, it will re-absorb the water. In theory if the fish in question where to manage to eat enough freeze dried product that was indeed dry, bloat could be an issue, however, this is nearly impossible to do in quantity. The fact that the worms do re-absorb the water so quickly, make them much less prone to bloat as other conventional foods such as a pellet. Also, I might add, that they are (the freeze dried product) much easier to digest than a commercial product, not having any glutens or other cr@p in them that are harder on the fish's digestive tract.



My question more pertains to the nutrient absorbtion of foods. With my dogs, there is a point where increased intake of nutrients has no effect. It gets capped out. And with fish that may negatively affect the quality of their environment in a way that may be preventable.

If your asking if overfeeding can lead to issues in an aquarium, the answer is yes.

[MSD]

If you are worried about bloat just presoak the freeze dried worms in some aquarium water.

[ericNH]

Well common sense tells you not to eat dehydrated food and drink a bunch of water. Our eat such if you live in an aquatic habitat. That makes sense. My question more pertains to the nutrient absorbtion of foods. With my dogs, there is a point where increased intake of nutrients has no effect. It gets capped out. And with fish that may negatively affect the quality of their environment in a way that may be preventable.

There are tons of studies with Mammals about this, was wondering if anyone has studied this in discus.

I like the question, klannin. It is exactly the kind that I'd like to hear answered. +1!

[ericNH]

That being said I feed my discus like the carnivorous pigs they are. I've read it somewhere that "you can overfeed your tank, but you can't overfeed your fish." But I've also read this is not true for Bettas, so take this all with a grain of salt.

[klannin]

Well, like with dogs, cheap foods that contain more filler ingredients that go undigested have higher output. Now going raw, although most of the contents is water, because it is easily digested by the dog the output is far less. The dog is utilizing more of the nutrients.

Now the problem with feeding this type of diet is replicating the nutritional dynamics of a natural raw diet. And including the natural fibers dogs get. Unless you let them graze on grass, which the will. I for one do feed a quality kibble, so I doubt have to worry.

But with fish, increased output will have serious negative effects. I think a lot of you guys look at the frozen food package and see the moisture content. But forget what you are paying for may be a food that is cleaner and better for the fish. I don't know, though. There are tons of studies on this I have read but they are on dogs.

[nc0gnet0]

I think a lot of you guys look at the frozen food package and see the moisture content. But forget what you are paying for may be a food that is cleaner and better for the fish. I don't know, though

This might apply to a frozen vs processed food comparison, but I don't think it applies at all to a frozen vs freeze dried comparison.