My 4" Blue Fish has Epilepsy

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Hello SD,

I know he doesn't really, but he has these "episodes" where he looks like he does. Read on....

Problem
1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

He arrived 9/3, and on 9/7 he started displaying these episodes. I received 7 fish all at once. (1) 5", (4) 4.5", (2) 4". This guy is one of the 4" little ones. He has the most personality, too. He's fearless - the first to break out of the group, and he's playful - likes to do the limbo under the branch in the tank and plays under the water flow when I'm refilling the tank. He also eats like a pig, and this is where I wonder if his problems come from? He eats everything and anything that floats by him or lands in the sand. I feed mostly freeze dried tubifex, discus pellets soaked in garlic guard, and a few freeze dries brine shrimp (but those are messy).

2. Symptoms.

I'm new to discus so I have spent hours staring at them and analyzing every move they make. The big one always did an occasional shimmy and a head shake. Then I noticed a couple of other guys doing the shimmy, too. They will peck at the branch, but they will also rub their faces on it as they swim by. I was starting to over analyze all this when the little blue guy started having these fits. He freezes up / stiffens and sort of trembles but stops swimming and loses control of his directionality. Turns very dark and just floats in place (will usually turn nose up, but also sideways or down depending on what he was doing when it starts.) This lasts for maybe 5 seconds? Maybe 10? And then in a blink of an eye, he's normal color (or even very pale) and darting at other fish and swimming like nothing happened.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

I've done nothing yet. I am going to pick up some PraziPro in a couple of hours and start that treatment. I also just received a UV sterilizer which I will hook up, but it may be undersized for my tank.

Tank/Water
4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

Tank is 93G. These 7 are the only ones I have, and they all arrived together on 9/3.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

50% every day.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank is a new set up - cycled over 6 weeks a while ago with an Eheim 2075. I have thin PFS. I have a sand blasted manzanita branch that I boiled is sections when I received it, but still had to scrub regularly while tank cycled. I have 3 plants - java fern, anubius, amazon sword. I had a crypto wendtii in the tank before the fish, but I removed it because it created too much waste (whole different plant drama.) And 3 rocks that I did the acid test on and also boiled.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Yes. 12 hrs minimum, usually 24 hrs. This is to burn off chlorine (I don't use dechlorinator). PH out of tap is 7.0-7.2. PH out of my aging barrel is 7.4-7.6.

8. Parameters and water source;

- temp _____82F

- ph _____ 7.6

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____<5

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____100%

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

New tank with branch, rocks, sand and plants that all cycled together. Added fish all at once on same day.

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

I'm new to photobucket, too, so I hope these show up. I have one video of an episode (sorry there is a very loud tv on in the background - you will want to MUTE it!!) The other two pics are of the guilty party when he's looking better.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/th_FishyEpisode_zps262bb063.mp4 (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/FishyEpisode_zps262bb063.mp4)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/photo1_zps281ee3d0.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/photo1_zps281ee3d0.jpg.html)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/LilBlue_zpsc1a86ba8.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/LilBlue_zpsc1a86ba8.jpg.html)

Thanks for your expert thoughts.

Steph

[Second Hand Pat]

Steph, can you get a video of one of these episodes? Also when he does this is it beside another fish, sort of like he presents his side to the fish?

[fishtanktenderfoot]

The very first (small) picture is a link to a video. I think you can see it if you click on it? Did I attach it correctly?

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Steph, watched the video. This is how photobucket videos are attached but unless you know it is a video it just appears to be a picture. I noted some white fuzzy balls at the end of the hard rays and small whitest areas in the body of the fish. How long has that been there? Generally those are signs of poor water quality. Can you up the percentage of your water changes?

Also the fish in question appears to presenting it's side to the adjacent fish as if there is something on the skin of the fish annoying it.

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Thanks for the reply Pat,

The white spot is new as of yesterday, I believe. I can up my water changes, but I'll have to buy another container and heater. And set it up in the middle of the room, so I'm not sure I could do it permanently. They do rub each other, and they are still acclimating so they huddle together, too, on occasion. He isn't always near other fish when he had his fits. In some cases he was alone in a corner.

[Second Hand Pat]

I wouldn't start any treatment. Let's see what Rick and/or Paul has to say. I am surprised you are not having a mini-cycle due to all the fish being added at once which shouldn't be a problem with daily WCs.

[fishtanktenderfoot]

I've been pretty paranoid about the water parameters for just that reason. I did a pretty heavy bio-load fishless cycle, mostly at 4ppm until I backed it down to 2ppm towards the end. I've been testing the water every 12 hrs, and nothing but slight nitrates.

[pcsb23]

Have you been doing 50% changes since you got the fish?

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Yes, every day since the first 24 hrs after they got dropped in.

[pcsb23]

Daily 50% changes should be adequate, and is better than most do imo/e :)

The way the fish is presenting itself is indicative of it having something irritating it as Pat said, possibly some form of parasite. Ideally you would need a qt tank to treat, but you may find that a treatment with something like formalin and malachite green will resolve it, that is if it is a parasite, which in my experience this type of thing usually is.

[nc0gnet0]

Were the pictures taken the same day as the video?

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Yes they were. I changed the background yesterday afternoon (they were NOT happy), and that's the new background. But just for fun, I went home just now for lunch (mine and theirs), and I took these - they are less than an hour old.

I stopped by 2 pet chains and neither had any good meds. The good LFS has both prazipro and formalin/malachite green (I called) so I can pick up one after work and start treatment. I have a problem with my qt tank - it is full with cardinals at the moment (it seemed like a good idea at the time.) So either I need to treat in the display tank or I need to buy another tank... Is the formalin/malachite green the recommended of the two options? For whatever I'm fighting?

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/BlueTodayOtherSide_zps2e845c67.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/BlueTodayOtherSide_zps2e845c67.jpg.html)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/BlueFaceToday_zpse33b361e.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/BlueFaceToday_zpse33b361e.jpg.html)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/BlueToday_zpsdc7b0f61.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/BlueToday_zpsdc7b0f61.jpg.html)

Steph

[pcsb23]

Doesn't look to be huge amount wrong with these. I'd hold off any treatment for now.

[nc0gnet0]

Doesn't look to be huge amount wrong with these. I'd hold off any treatment for now.

I agree with this, what you might be seeing may be nothing more than pecking order posturing.......... he looks like he might be one of the smaller fish in the tank......is this correct?


-Rick

[fishtanktenderfoot]

REALLY?! Yes, he is the smallest guy in the tank with the biggest ego. The whole "turn dark and float sideways like I'm choking" thing is normal posturing?

Wow, I have a lot to learn about these fish. But what about the white spot you can see in the video? It's true that may have been something off the branch when he scoots under it, it is hard to see when he is his normal coloring. I will still keep a good eye on him. I'll take another video if I see him do it again.

(I may still go stock up on the meds just to have on hand. I didn't like not having it when I thought I needed it.)

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Well, I'm back, and I have my hands full... I need help, please. Let me try to recap my life with fish the past month and all the stupid newbie things I have managed to accomplish (this may take a while):

- I did calm down after this exchange above and tried to see the difference between all the posturing and pecking order stuff going on in my tank versus signs of distress. I had a pair start laying eggs 9/12 (9 days after arrival), and that complicated (for my untrained eye) all the activity going on in my tank.

- I decided that there was consistent (although not escalating) shimmying and face rubbing going on. On advice of supplier, I treated with PraziPro for 12 days 9/13-24. Partly based on the selling point that it was a good preventative anyway even if nothing wrong... ok, so maybe not the best justification.

- Fish, for the most part, seemed to be adjusting but would have a huddle session maybe once a day, it was not unusual.

- Then they started darting. Again, just once a day or so, but now they are definitely more skittish and they are starting to hurt themselves in some violent darting sessions. I tested the water and found trace chlorine appearing (my carbon filter going bad I guess, although I also age and aerate for 24 hrs) - major mistake I know. I've been kicking myself over it, so feel free to join in. Anyway, I am using Prime now, but no improvement in their behavior. My ammonia looks to be zero. If I stare at it long enough, you might be able to talk me into that it is not zero, but it is definitely not .25. It is probably zero, but I keep thinking I have to have SOMETHING wrong with my water. I should take a picture of my test result tomorrow and share it. Nitrite is zero, nitrate less than 5. Temp is 82.

- I still do 50% WC every day. I have not missed a day since they arrived. My husband covered for me when I was gone for a couple of days last week and flooded the fish room. I'm glad it was him and not me...

- As an example, I came in and fed them dinner tonight. They greeted me and 5 of the 7 ate from my hand. I used a python to vacuum and drain, and they normally don't care at all, but halfway through that, they did the darting thing. It was before I added new water.

Ok, so now for Part II of this story:

- I bought 12 cardinals and a pair of rams on 9/7. I have no idea now why that seemed like a good idea at the time. They have been in my QT since. I lost 5 cardinals in short order. The remainder seemed strong, but it looks like I am going to lose another one tonight. They get a 25% WC daily in a 20G tank. I did a lot more research on discus than I did these guys, so I'm not as clear what I might be doing wrong here. The first wave of deaths seemed related to stress and "sorta normal" high mortality, so I didn't put much worry into it. This last one is definitely SICK, though, so now I am concerned. Also, the female ram at one time seemed to have a fuzzy patch on her cheek, so I added some salt. Until I found out salt isn't great for tetras, so I stopped. She looks pretty good now. Also, to complicate things, because I'm really good at it, they are Day 9 into PraziPro. Cearly not a well tank.

The obvious question is did I cross contaminate? I have been trying very hard, but I can't deny it isn't a possibility.

So at this point, my focus is on the discus. I'll post pics. I can start pulling out the plants, rocks, branch, etc. and see if things improve. I'm hoping you can see something on the pics that I can't. They all eat good, they all (I'm pretty sure) have black/brown poo.

Thanks for any insights...

Steph

[fishtanktenderfoot]

And here are some pics.
(1) General view of the tank tonight:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/Tank_zps0a1ec29d.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/Tank_zps0a1ec29d.jpg.html)

(2) Blue guy hiding in the corner (taken at same time as rest were in shot above), he got a little beat up during darting:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/ScooterInCorner_zps4d31d4cb.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/ScooterInCorner_zps4d31d4cb.jpg.html)

(3) My big fish with forehead injury. I turned branch to point downward after she scraped herself darting. Should I do anything for her?
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/BabyFull_zps14fc8234.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/BabyFull_zps14fc8234.jpg.html)

(4) My sick cardinal - lost his red stripe, really fat, no longer schools, can't stay level.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/TetraBad_zps9c50b208.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/TetraBad_zps9c50b208.jpg.html)

(5) Finally, myhttp://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f195/steph_Boyle/Ram_zps01fb2624.jpg (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/steph_Boyle/media/Ram_zps01fb2624.jpg.html) ram that looks better:

[nc0gnet0]

Does this darting behavior ever happen when the tank is not undergoing a water change? Is there a way to cut down on light intensity? Overall, your fish look really good. As for the LFS tetra's I think that is a separate issue all together. From what I understand it is not unusual to lose some cardinals after purchase.

[Skip]

I had fish do same thing... I asked a while back.. never really go concrete answer. . It was very strange to see...esp when others started to pick at them. Then they wake up.. weird...

Eventually jus stopped doing it...

[fishtanktenderfoot]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, they dart at other times like during feeding or sometimes when we walk by we scare them. They are skittish at breakfast when I have the LEDs on at only 10% so they can see. In evenings I only bring them up to 40%. They are across what is basically an empty room right now from a row of windows. I've thought maybe blinds would cut down on any reflections or glare. But I wasn't sure just how much to cater to them either.

I hope my guys stop soon. I wasn't panicking but now they are getting hurt.