brewmaster15
10-01-2014, 09:01 AM
Compost worms (red wigglers) toxic? Well thats the speculation in some quarters...and the more I read about it, the more I wonder. Now before anyone goes and pounces on this saying "I fed them for years and years and neverrrrrrrr had a problem", here me out first. :bandana:
The worm I am talking about is a compost worm, we call them red wigglers and they are scientifically known as Eisenia fetida(foetida) They are an easy worm to propagate and nutitionally a good food source. However, its been noted that some discus will eat them, others wont touch them. I have witnessed this personally. Sometimes I have witness a discus take one and spit it out. I assumed that it was too big... not sure now.
I'm bringing this discussion up because of a thread I have in my homestead site here...http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116127-Be-careful-what-you-wish-for-many-mouths-to-feed-now!-Lol
where I talk about having a batch of garter snakes to raise. While doing some research, it appears that Eisenia (foetida) compost worms are toxic to garter snakes, so I dug further and there is a growing body of evidence that they are toxic to some reptiles and amphibians. Got me wondering. If they are toxic to discus we'd see alot more issues than we do, however, maybe its not an acute toxicity? maybe it builds up. That would mean you might not be able to associate a sick fish with what it ate... One thing about these worms is they are used as guinea pigs for toxological studies... they are extremely good at absorbing heavy metals and pesticides...something like that could bio-accumulate in the worms and then the fish? But it doesn't explain the refusal of some discus to eat the worms and the spitting out witnessed. Well come to find out there is alot in a name...Eisenia fetida(foetida) the "fetida(foetida)" comes from the worms ability to excrete a foul smelling chemical when handled. I can't seem to find info on what that chemical is, however..I wonder if thats the reason we see what we see with these worms.Maybe its particularly offensive to some discus,maybe some worms excrete it more. Many organisms synthesize chemicals they use in defense from noxious things they absorb. Classic example is monarch butterflies and their larve are toxic because the eat toxic milkweed plants. Maybe the worms are synthesizing this chemical from various foods we feed them or bedding material.
Theres one other factor that may be going on here.. There is another worm that is closely related to Eisenia (foetida) Its Eisenia andrei They look alike but do not interbred, and they are often mixed in Cultures and compost bins. That could mean that the fish will tolerate one species , Eisenia andrei, but not the other Eisenia (foetida)
I can't find any reference to whether Eisenia andrei produces that foul chemical. Pic of the 2 worm species is here... http://vermicomposters.ning.com/profiles/blogs/eisenia-andrei-pictures?id=2094123%3ABlogPost%3A79224&page=1#comments incidentallyEisenia andrei are reported to reproduce 33 % faster than the Eisenia (foetida) which could also be a factor in the variable observations. source :http://www.natuga.de/english/knowledge/compost_worm_faq.html
I don't know if red wigglers pose a threat to discus health, I just thought I would bring this up for discussion and see what you all think. There does seem to be some room for further observation, discussion and information on this topic
-al
The worm I am talking about is a compost worm, we call them red wigglers and they are scientifically known as Eisenia fetida(foetida) They are an easy worm to propagate and nutitionally a good food source. However, its been noted that some discus will eat them, others wont touch them. I have witnessed this personally. Sometimes I have witness a discus take one and spit it out. I assumed that it was too big... not sure now.
I'm bringing this discussion up because of a thread I have in my homestead site here...http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116127-Be-careful-what-you-wish-for-many-mouths-to-feed-now!-Lol
where I talk about having a batch of garter snakes to raise. While doing some research, it appears that Eisenia (foetida) compost worms are toxic to garter snakes, so I dug further and there is a growing body of evidence that they are toxic to some reptiles and amphibians. Got me wondering. If they are toxic to discus we'd see alot more issues than we do, however, maybe its not an acute toxicity? maybe it builds up. That would mean you might not be able to associate a sick fish with what it ate... One thing about these worms is they are used as guinea pigs for toxological studies... they are extremely good at absorbing heavy metals and pesticides...something like that could bio-accumulate in the worms and then the fish? But it doesn't explain the refusal of some discus to eat the worms and the spitting out witnessed. Well come to find out there is alot in a name...Eisenia fetida(foetida) the "fetida(foetida)" comes from the worms ability to excrete a foul smelling chemical when handled. I can't seem to find info on what that chemical is, however..I wonder if thats the reason we see what we see with these worms.Maybe its particularly offensive to some discus,maybe some worms excrete it more. Many organisms synthesize chemicals they use in defense from noxious things they absorb. Classic example is monarch butterflies and their larve are toxic because the eat toxic milkweed plants. Maybe the worms are synthesizing this chemical from various foods we feed them or bedding material.
Theres one other factor that may be going on here.. There is another worm that is closely related to Eisenia (foetida) Its Eisenia andrei They look alike but do not interbred, and they are often mixed in Cultures and compost bins. That could mean that the fish will tolerate one species , Eisenia andrei, but not the other Eisenia (foetida)
I can't find any reference to whether Eisenia andrei produces that foul chemical. Pic of the 2 worm species is here... http://vermicomposters.ning.com/profiles/blogs/eisenia-andrei-pictures?id=2094123%3ABlogPost%3A79224&page=1#comments incidentallyEisenia andrei are reported to reproduce 33 % faster than the Eisenia (foetida) which could also be a factor in the variable observations. source :http://www.natuga.de/english/knowledge/compost_worm_faq.html
I don't know if red wigglers pose a threat to discus health, I just thought I would bring this up for discussion and see what you all think. There does seem to be some room for further observation, discussion and information on this topic
-al