I'm BACK......

[pgrhodes1]

Hi All,

As some of you may remember, I gave up Discus a while back; however, I decided to give this ONE more shot. I followed the advise from the forum. Ordered from Kenny and went with 5" large, near adult fish. They arrive yesterday and I still can't believe my eyes. They are absolutely stunning. One 5" Rafflesia and One 5" Fuji Red. Trying hard not to go into stress mode but its hard. They are happy healthy fish so all I have to do is keep them alive, right?? They are in a community tank and seem to be setting in fine. Got them to eat some blood worms this AM which made ME feel better. Temp is at 84 and plan to do 50% water change every day until I'm sure my bio load is big enough after adding these two large fish. They are in a 50 gal bowfront. If all goes well and I can keep these guys happy and healthy I will order more 5" discuss and move everyone to my 90 gal show tank. Any and all advise welcome. Wish me luck!!

Penny

[Miss_Fish]

What kind of fish do you have in your community tank? Do you have any pictures?

[pgrhodes1]

Tried to upload pictures but it keeps showing an error message. I have 2 clown loach, and 4 dwarf gouramis in with them.

[Miss_Fish]

I see we best of luck with them, can't go wrong with fish from Kenny :)

[Rudustin]

Hi All,

As some of you may remember, I gave up Discus a while back; however, I decided to give this ONE more shot. I followed the advise from the forum. Ordered from Kenny and went with 5" large, near adult fish. They arrive yesterday and I still can't believe my eyes. They are absolutely stunning. One 5" Rafflesia and One 5" Fuji Red. Trying hard not to go into stress mode but its hard. They are happy healthy fish so all I have to do is keep them alive, right?? They are in a community tank and seem to be setting in fine. Got them to eat some blood worms this AM which made ME feel better. Temp is at 84 and plan to do 50% water change every day until I'm sure my bio load is big enough after adding these two large fish. They are in a 50 gal bowfront. If all goes well and I can keep these guys happy and healthy I will order more 5" discuss and move everyone to my 90 gal show tank. Any and all advise welcome. Wish me luck!!

Penny Hello Penny and I am glad you're back. I haven't heard you say if the community tank had fish in it already. If it did the two discus that you did get should have been quarantined before they were placed in the tank. You need to drop the temperature to 82 degrees and you haven't said if you have plants and substrate or not. Could you let us know the details so we can help you keep these discus nice and healthy. In the future Discus prefer five to six of their own kind to feel secure. Two will not be as suitable. These kinds of fish are more comfortable in schools. Good luck with your new discus. Rufus

[pgrhodes1]

Hi there,


I have 2 clown loach, and 4 dwarf gouramis in with them. I have sand substrate with silk plants. I have a canister filter which is cleaned once a week. I also have an air stone. Tank is wiped down and plants are cleaned once a week. I had temp at 82; however, Kenny suggested I up it to 84-86 to stimulate their appetites and help them adjust. Since it has warmed up they are moving around and have been eating more. Wish I could upload video and/or pictures but can't.

Thanks a bunch for your reply.

Penny

[Rudustin]

Hi Penny, I'm sure Kenny is right about the temperature to stimulate their eating. I also have many discus from Kenny. Eventually, once they get eating and comfortable I would suggest lowering the temperature to 82. You still haven't answered the question as to whether or not you quarantined these fish before putting them in a community tank? How often will you be doing water changes? Rufus

[Rudustin]

I beg your pardon after reading your first post you did say 50% everyday which is very good. Rufus

[pgrhodes1]

Hi there,

I didn't quarantine because I am ashamed to say I don't care as much about the loaches and gouramis as I do the Discus. At least if I understand quarantine right it is to protect my community fish from anything the Discus may have. Is that correct?? I've had my fish for well over a year and they are happy and heathy. I also wormed them again prior to introducing the Discus. Thank you for your suggestion to turn temp down once they are comfortable. I really don't like the temp being that high.

Penny

[yim11]

Hi there,

I didn't quarantine because I am ashamed to say I don't care as much about the loaches and gouramis as I do the Discus. At least if I understand quarantine right it is to protect my community fish from anything the Discus may have. Is that correct?? I've had my fish for well over a year and they are happy and heathy. I also wormed them again prior to introducing the Discus. Thank you for your suggestion to turn temp down once they are comfortable. I really don't like the temp being that high.

Penny

No that's not correct - you would qt to keep the discus from catching any of the number of pathogens a LFS fish will carry.

[Rudustin]

Hi there,

I didn't quarantine because I am ashamed to say I don't care as much about the loaches and gouramis as I do the Discus. At least if I understand quarantine right it is to protect my community fish from anything the Discus may have. Is that correct?? I've had my fish for well over a year and they are happy and heathy. I also wormed them again prior to introducing the Discus. Thank you for your suggestion to turn temp down once they are comfortable. I really don't like the temp being that high.

Penny Penny, I am afraid that you have it backwards. The quarantine procedure is to protect the discus that have less immunity to the pathogens that your loaches and your gouramis might have! Keep and eye on the discus and should they begin to act strange immediately put them in quarantine and ask someone here on the forum what to do. I hope that doesn't happen. The clown loaches eventually will be a bit to active especially at night for the discus so you need to think about either returning them to the LFS that you bought them from for a credit or give them away. Clown loaches can get very bold at feeding time as well. Let us know your progress. Best Regards. Rufus

[rickztahone]

Being that you already have your fish in the comminuty tank, I say it is too late to cry over spilt milk here. QT has been skipped, but you can just keep a close eye on them and make sure that they are acclimating well and do not show any signs of illness.

Secondly, Rufus has a valid point about getting more than 2 fish. 5 fish should be a better number for them. Again, you've already ordered the two fish, but in the future, to increase your chances of success with discus, just keep in mind that they prefer larger numbers. If it is just the 2 of them, they may end up fighting one another, or one might become an aggressive bully. .

[Rudustin]

Penny, I happened to remember your many posts as early as 2013 when you received a discus and tried to save it! Then you ordered discus, four of them I believe, and I remember posting replies to your many questions and your despair about not being able to take care of them properly. At that time you were warned about quarantine procedures in numerous posts from several members of SD. You were also warned to not have any less than five or six because of the need for discus to have other discus in order to feel comfortable. I am surprised that you have ignored all the warnings and purchased two more discus and not heeded the many warnings when you attempted this before!? Please for the sake of the discus please read over your posts and the replies from earlier times and you will see that all the advice has been given to you before. Heed the warnings or the discus will die. Rufus

[pgrhodes1]

Here we go again....I have had the loaches for OVER a year. I have had the gouramis for OVER a year. If they had anything from the pet store it would have SURLY shown up by now. I am not going to invest in over 5 $150 fish unless I am SURE I can keep them alive, regardless of what you people say on here. Besides which I spoke to Kenny about all this. Oh hell forget it. I knew better than to come back on here anyway. I'll work with Kenny if I need any advise. Good day to you.

[Rudustin]

Here we go again....I have had the loaches for OVER a year I have had the gouramis for OVER a year. If they had anything from the pet store it would have SURLY shown up by now. I am not going to invest in over 5 $150 fish unless I a SURE I can keep them alive, regardless of what you people say on here. Oh hell forget it. I knew better than to come back on here. Penny, I'm sorry to hear this. We are trying to help you. You will be able to take care of the discus you have if you follow through with the regiments needed to care for these wonderful fish. You seem to have everything else in place with the exception of not having quarantined them from your fish and the fact that discus need other discus to survive. If you just follow through with those two things all will be well. I look forward to hearing in the weeks to come that your discus are thriving. Best regards. Rufus

[Rudustin]

This is why everyone recommends a school of at least 5, preferably 6+ to even out any aggression/bullying while the discus sort out the pecking order of their school. The more discus in the school, the less opportunity for a single fish to be picked on by the bully in the tank.

Whatever you decide, good luck! Penny, this was the advice you were given in one of your posts about being tired of discus. I just wanted you to see it so you didn't feel like I was picking on you. I hope you get the ones you have now fat and happy and healthy. Rufus

[Allwin]

At this point, just keep up with your wc.good luck. Share your tank pics for better visibility.

[Len]

Penny,

Welcome back, but you have to realize that if you make a post specifically stating "any and all advice welcome", then people are going to offer advice. For the record you have received sound advice from several folks, unfortunately it was not what you wanted to hear. I would respectfully suggest that if you are going to become irritated by honest opinions and advice then you shouldn't invite it to begin with.


Here we go again....I have had the loaches for OVER a year. I have had the gouramis for OVER a year. If they had anything from the pet store it would have SURLY shown up by now. I am not going to invest in over 5 $150 fish unless I am SURE I can keep them alive, regardless of what you people say on here. Besides which I spoke to Kenny about all this. Oh hell forget it. I knew better than to come back on here anyway. I'll work with Kenny if I need any advise. Good day to you.

[pgrhodes1]

You got that right...never again. I love good sound advise but telling me to quarantine simply for the sake of doing it does not make since to me and I'm not going to follow it. Nor am I going to be treated like a idiot because I didn't do it. I STATED very clearly that I've had these fish for OVER a year. All my fish are wormed with medicated flakes on a regular schedule. Nothing has been added to this particular tank for over a YEAR and I am to quarantine WHY????? As far as getting only 2 for now don't you think I talked this over with Kenny?? He agreed starting with 2 five inch HEALTY fish should be fine. If they eat and continue to do well I will get more and move to my 90 gal. So far they are eating and no aggression. Oh and by the way, per the advise I received, the clown loach have been moved. THAT made since to me.

[Rudustin]

You got that right...never again. I love good sound advise but telling me to quarantine simply for the sake of doing it does not make since to me and I'm not going to follow it. Nor am I going to be treated like a idiot because I didn't do it. I STATED very clearly that I've had these fish for OVER a year. All my fish are wormed with medicated flakes on a regular schedule. Nothing has been added to this particular tank for over a YEAR and I am to quarantine WHY????? As far as getting only 2 for now don't you think I talked this over with Kenny?? He agreed starting with 2 five inch HEALTY fish should be fine. If they eat and continue to do well I will get more and move to my 90 gal. So far they are eating and no aggression. Oh and by the way, per the advise I received, the clown loach have been moved. THAT made since to me. Penny, Great and glad you took the advice about the loaches and again welcome back to the forum. Rufus

[Len]

I think I see part of the issue. In your mind because you've had the other fish for over a year, you feel they are healthy. To some extent this is true and I can see why you would jump to the conclusion that it is definative. There IS still very good reason to QT, however, and since I don't see where that was clearly explained to you I will go ahead and do so with no other intention than to clarify. The other fish may have been wormed and if they were worm free, no need to ever do it again unless you somehow reintroduce worms through feeding. That doesn't cover other illnesses/viruses etc that they are simply carriers for. The particular "nasties we'll call them" may have no impact on them directly, but if introduced to other fish such as your discus can cause harm. It's no different to humans really. Any one of us can be a carrier for various diseases and not even know it. We could go through our entire lives being a carrier and suffer no ill effects but if we pass it on to another human, they may suffer the full impact of the disease. I haven't seen pictures of the fish you received from Kenny, but I assume they are quite beautiful as he is known for his quality control. That being said he is also only human and didn't write the discus bible so will sometimes have a different opinion on some situations, neither right nor wrong -- just different. It will be up to you to decide which advice you follow but hearing another opinion never hurt anyone. The forum is here to help you and has so don't feel that you are being treated as an Idiot as you say or become defensive and offended. it's just sharing knowledge with the intention of being cooperative in a community fashion. I've kept various aquariums and fish for 35 years or so and there is still much I learn. If I'm told something that I'm not sure I agree with I question the reasons and get further information before I simply dismiss it. There are people on the forum who know far more than I will ever know so often times I am wrong so I'm grateful they are here and willing to help if I ask. I'm willing to bet that you and most others here fall into the same boat.

[pgrhodes1]

Let me see if I understand this right. These fish have literally been QT for over a year; however, I should wait 2 months because once I have Discus in the house they may show signs of illness?? Unless you are telling me NEVER to put them in with these fish?? At least that would make since. And I will ALWAYS take offense when spoken to like a naughty school girl. If you read my past post you'll see I did QT, I had as many as 9 at one time and it did no good. I gave 4 away to a local pet store owner and they are still doing well. I simply got tired of the grow out stress. The HUGE water changes, the massive feeding, the fighting, the stress was awful. Of course everyone on here assures me that if I get adults from one of the breeders on here none of this will happen.

Advise given: Buy from a reputable breeder with healthy fish, buy biggest your budget can handle, adults handle stress better, don't have to worry about grow out, beginners should start with adults.

This is the last go round so I followed this advise; however, if you think I'm prepared to gamble close to a thousand dollars without making sure this will work you are mistaken. I'm fully aware these two may not make it which is a shame because they are incredible. But hell, if I listen to you guys I might as well go dig the grave and throw'em in. I was REALLY excited about these guys. It has turned into nothing but stress.

[Len]

Penny I'm not sure why you feel that way. Did you post expecting to argue? I don't think anything I said should make you feel treated like a naughty schoolgirl but if I somehow managed to do that I apologize. To answer the root question of your post though, no I wasn't suggesting that you keep the fish separated for an additional two months as that wouldn't prove anything. Normally, the next step in a proper QT would be to place one of the newly purchased fish in with your existing fish and monitor it for a few weeks for any obvious signs of problem. If that went well then you could make the assumption you originally made and put the rest of your discus in as well. Let me pose a question to you however. Had nobody offered any of these suggestions and advice and things went terribly wrong would you then be asking why nobody offered the advice you asked for? Also bear in mind that others will read this thread in the future and may benefit from the advice posted, so you are not the only one who would have received help. In terms of your new fish, post pictures, but I'm sure if you bought from Kenny they are beautiful as I said earlier. I also don't think anyone was trying to tell you your chances were grimm, merely trying to help you understand the proper practice of QT and even why. If and when you purchase more fish to go with them hopefully you will buy a larger group and want to protect your investment to the best of your ability. In the meantime enjoy them and keep the excitement alive -- nobody is telling you differently. I wish you the best of luck with them as i'm certain does everyone else.

[pgrhodes1]

My apologies, you have treated me with respect. I did take offense at the previous post scolding me for not going back and reading my post. Hell, I know them by heart. Anyway, THANK YOU!!

[Len]

You're welcome and I do hope the information makes some more sense now that you've received more explanation and it serves to be useful when you increase your stock.

[farebox]

Hi Penny, just briefly read some of posts. Don't get stressed out, I fell people are trying to help you, but if Kenny said things are cool, go with it. Good luck with your new fish. If you are going to fork out big $$ for fish, may I recommend just get a sizable tank and keep them for awhile...just my two cents, hang in there!!!


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[rickztahone]

I think I see part of the issue. In your mind because you've had the other fish for over a year, you feel they are healthy. To some extent this is true and I can see why you would jump to the conclusion that it is definative. There IS still very good reason to QT, however, and since I don't see where that was clearly explained to you I will go ahead and do so with no other intention than to clarify. The other fish may have been wormed and if they were worm free, no need to ever do it again unless you somehow reintroduce worms through feeding. That doesn't cover other illnesses/viruses etc that they are simply carriers for. The particular "nasties we'll call them" may have no impact on them directly, but if introduced to other fish such as your discus can cause harm. It's no different to humans really. Any one of us can be a carrier for various diseases and not even know it. We could go through our entire lives being a carrier and suffer no ill effects but if we pass it on to another human, they may suffer the full impact of the disease. I haven't seen pictures of the fish you received from Kenny, but I assume they are quite beautiful as he is known for his quality control. That being said he is also only human and didn't write the discus bible so will sometimes have a different opinion on some situations, neither right nor wrong -- just different. It will be up to you to decide which advice you follow but hearing another opinion never hurt anyone. The forum is here to help you and has so don't feel that you are being treated as an Idiot as you say or become defensive and offended. it's just sharing knowledge with the intention of being cooperative in a community fashion. I've kept various aquariums and fish for 35 years or so and there is still much I learn. If I'm told something that I'm not sure I agree with I question the reasons and get further information before I simply dismiss it. There are people on the forum who know far more than I will ever know so often times I am wrong so I'm grateful they are here and willing to help if I ask. I'm willing to bet that you and most others here fall into the same boat.

Len, I actually added up all the years of all the experience of our members and we are right at 4,984 total years of experience here on the forum. (:p:D;), did I get you?)

[treylcham]

Penny dont stress your not the only one:( I have wanted discus since I started aquarium hobby but I knew I I should get better bfore getting them. I have now been in the hobby for 5years and have made some awesome planted tank. I came on this forum about two weeks ago because I am considering getting a breeding pair for a new 50gallon high tech planted tank, so I thought I would ask wht peoples thoguhts were on me doing this. Well pretty much the only advice I got was your going to kill the fish:-( made me feel the sam way you do. I came to realize that most the people on here have never had a planted tank and only bb so they want to bash me for wanting to try discus in a full planted tank. I under stand that they just want the best for the fish but I fnd that al9ot of the people on here are way over cautious about discus. And theyb wonder why people think they are not hardy fish because they freak people out when they ask qestions.

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[pgrhodes1]

Yes, there is a LOT of knowledge on the site. I love to search and read the wealth of information on here; however, I'm learning NOT to ask questions or ask for advise. I'm getting private messages saying the same thing. Some people can be arrogant and very dismissive but there are others who really want to help and do offer some encouragement. Many people think their way is the only way and that is simply not true. Other people have raised Discus in planted tanks and they've turned out beautiful. Go to YouTube and you can see plenty. When I tried to grow out Discus before, per this site, I started with weak, unhealthy fish, and they were right. Shipping can be a nightmare here in Montana and I was afraid to have fish shipped. But after talking to Kenny I decided to spent the time and money to do things right (I thought) and give this one more shot. Kenny is wonderful by the way, and has lots of customers with planted tanks. You might what to give him a call and discuss this with him. God knows he's helped eased my many fears. AND my fish are doing great! They are eating like pigs out of my hand and came up to the glass to greet me this AM.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Penny and I do wish you the best with your new discus. Kenny does have a thread on quarantining new arrivals with considerations not discussed here. I only offer this for your future discus should you decide to add more in the future http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70091-Quarantine-recommendations-for-Discus-Purchased-from-Kenny-s-Discus.
Pat

[pgrhodes1]

Hi Pat,

Kenny definitely recommends QT. Hope I did not give the impression that he doesn't. Again because of the circumstances, I felt the risk from mine was small and I am certainly NOT fearful of Kenny's stock.

Per the link:

5) When introducing new stock, take one of your least favorite existing stock(this might sound mean but there's no other way to accomplish this without adding at least one "old" fish to your new additions), and add it to the QT tank...observe for the next 2 weeks...if there is no issues that develops in the QT, then you may try to mix the groups of fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

That is called the hero fish. :)

[musicmarn1]

Hey Penny, WELCOME BACK !!! so sorry your first thread back here, all excited about your beautiful new fish was not the best experience, Kenny is one of our several awesome sponsors and his guidance is amazing and helpful

at the end of the day id just love to see how you ENJOY and relax with these new fish, you got great, big, healthy discus from a trusted sponsor - put them in with your community tank

( I did loose personally some fish from Kenny before i understood why i should QT, myself personally so even the healthiest discus i now QT first just because the shipping can make them weaker and more susceptible to problems which are easier to avoid if they recover in a tank by themselves for a few weeks but i do that because i lost some of Kenny's juvies by mixing them with my other fish when i started out, having someone forcefully tell you what you have to do is NO fun im a bit disappointed with some of the posts here to be honest)

and now should be able to enjoy them ! not feel criticized, though i do agree its important to learn why QT is a good idea for fish fresh out of a shipping box, i dont think it should be forced down anyone's throat !

There are some amazingly supportive people here, some wonderful members and i really hope the person who posted about planted tanks, sees all the HUGE support for planted tanks here too !! I have several planted tanks, im a low tech person though lol, still learning Paul the other moderator has just gotten back into fish keeping after many many years in discus keeping, with a planted tank and Al certainly loves planted tanks too he owns the forums ! many members have beautiful stunning planted tanks with healthy discus in them, so yes there is support, i just have never recommended it to a beginner in discus or planted tanks if young discus are going to be bought lol :) because thats what i had in mind when i started and it was a really bad idea !!

I think you will have a really GREAT experience with these fish ! if anything does go wrong, well ive lost discus too from learning on them (sorry fish) and i got a lot better, and can actually enjoy them now :p

[treylcham]

Yea I know there.are some good people on the forum it just sometimes people think that if its not there way then just dig a hole for the fish to die in. what I was thinking of doing is a full carpet of hairgrass with some mid ground plants and some taller plants in he very back of the tank. I have an amazing 50year old peace of cedar stump that would be the center focal point of the tank. This set up would include which I already have, 2 marineland duable bright leds, hydor 450 canister filter wich I believe is rated for like 75gal to and mine is only 50 also I have full ada aqua sol and some active bacteria from ada which is a powder you lay on the bottom. I couldn't imagine a breeding pair of discus being sad to sick in suck a tank that has to be maintained. The only think that I could see beingbad is that I will be dosing ei fert and when using thoe you can only do one water change a week t 50% but I would think that with my setup in mind that the amount of bacteria and natural orginisms in the tank would be able to handle the bio load for sure, but idk people on here would say 50% on time a week!!!!. Your crazy. So I guess ill just have to think about it because if I do end up getting a pair, it would be a skender from hans

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[Miss_Fish]

Yea I know there.are some good people on the forum it just sometimes people think that if its not there way then just dig a hole for the fish to die in. what I was thinking of doing is a full carpet of hairgrass with some mid ground plants and some taller plants in he very back of the tank. I have an amazing 50year old peace of cedar stump that would be the center focal point of the tank. This set up would include which I already have, 2 marineland duable bright leds, hydor 450 canister filter wich I believe is rated for like 75gal to and mine is only 50 also I have full ada aqua sol and some active bacteria from ada which is a powder you lay on the bottom. I couldn't imagine a breeding pair of discus being sad to sick in suck a tank that has to be maintained. The only think that I could see beingbad is that I will be dosing ei fert and when using thoe you can only do one water change a week t 50% but I would think that with my setup in mind that the amount of bacteria and natural orginisms in the tank would be able to handle the bio load for sure, but idk people on here would say 50% on time a week!!!!. Your crazy. So I guess ill just have to think about it because if I do end up getting a pair, it would be a skender from hans

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Cedar is poisonous to fish, also the hair grass will trap food and feces making the tank hard to clean. I hate to say this but I really think that you need to do more research.

[kris2341]

Cedar is poisonous to fish, also the hair grass will trap food and feces making the tank hard to clean. I hate to say this but I really think that you need to do more research.

I did some googling on this, and it seems that the sap is what is poisonous to the fish depending on the type of cedar, if there is no sap and/or it has been waterlogged for a very long time, then great. I personally wouldnt risk it but it MIGHT work? though you certainly should test it with a cheap fish. People on plantedtank.net have been using old weathered waterlogged cedar in their tanks but that is the key point right there.

If it wasnt found underwater and DEAD, again, i would not risk it at all.

[Miss_Fish]

I did some googling on this, and it seems that the sap is what is poisonous to the fish depending on the type of cedar, if there is no sap and/or it has been waterlogged for a very long time, then great. I personally wouldnt risk it but it MIGHT work? though you certainly should test it with a cheap fish. People on plantedtank.net have been using old weathered waterlogged cedar in their tanks but that is the key point right there.

If it wasnt found underwater and DEAD, again, i would not risk it at all.
Yea I agree, I read up on it back whenever I wanted to try to use it; cedar is beautiful and we are surrounded by it so I really wanted to try to use it if possible. I just figured that the risk was too great; there is a lot of information about the sap leaching out, after a long period of time with no problems, because it took a while to come out from the core of the wood.

[musicmarn1]

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96277

comments from Tom Barr, a planted tank and driftwood expert, are particularly helpful ! :D

[treylcham]

Cedar driftwood is ok for planted tank or just any tank as long as it has been sitting for years. Like all wood it drys out over a period of time and that includes the sap. Easy way to test if it still has it is to cut a peace off a small spot that wont show and smell the fresh cut, if it smells really strong then DO NoT use it but if it takes you shoving your nose into the cut to even smell a hint of it then it is perfect and will last longer than most woods since it is a very hard wood. My peace is a 50year old driftwood stump and thats at least 50 years! How do I know this you might ask:) welp I got an answer for that question also :) my mom found it when she was at odder springs in fl when she was a young girl and she took it and it has sat to dry and bake in the sun ever since that day :)

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[treylcham]

O and for ur comment on hairgrass and discus, hairgrass once rooted is very hard to pull out and this makes it very easy to use a tube to suck out the poop and left over food in it. I have kept 4large angel fish in the past with a large carpet of it :) im not saying it will get it all but it should get most of it. I have read up on how to minimize food droping to the bottom and I have found that using floating food works great and also using long tweezers to fedd the beef heart help out with it extremely. The small bit that would be left over should get eaten up by the beneficial micro organisms. I cant say im.100% right but it sesm very logical

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