Domestic Strain vs. Wilds, are they Reallt different?

[YSS]

We see posts here all the time that states that domestic discus are easier to keep than wilds and that domestic strains are more tolerant to wider range of water conditions than their wild counterparts. It has been less than 100 years (I could be wrong on this) since man started raising and breeding discus in captivity. If you believe in evolution, not long enough for genes to mutate and adapt. So, domestic discus should not be any different from wild discus in their ability to adapt to different water conditions and ability to fight diseases. I have kept wilds and domestic strain discus together in my tanks, and I saw no difference in how they behave and live in my tank. What say you?

[brewmaster15]

HI Yun,
I don't think theres been enough time for core biological functions to change that much
..thinks like immune systems. But something like the water parameters they can tolerate...that I think we change in a short time as it may literally only be a few genes coding. Same goes for shape and color.Especially if breeders are unintentionally or selectively choosing breeding stock based on traits like fast growth,roundest shape,best color...things intentionally bred for. Whereas the tolerance to water parameters may be something unintentionally introduced by the keepers with various types of water.
al

[Wes]

That could be up to 100 generations out of the wild. Compared to humans 100 generations is about 2000 years. Are our bodies any different in our ability to adapt to different conditions and ability to fight diseases from 2000 years ago? Discounting medical advances.

[Rudustin]

I've been waiting for someone to admit first of all that they have kept wild and domestics together and secondly to bring the question up as to wether or not they can be kept together. It seems so daunting for so many of us to assume that those of us that keep domestics only would have to have even more special conditions for wilds. Sometimes it even seems that those of us that keep domestics only are .....difficult to say this but it needs to be said, that we are some how less challenged keeping domestics and there fore less committed to the hobby. I have continually grown more fascinated with keeping wilds but have hesitated in doing so because it would seem that I wouldn't be able to meet the conditions needed to keep them. Yet, I have seven tanks of domestic discus and they are healthy and growing and a joy to keep. I have often wondered why there is such a difference. I understand that Wilds are caught and for the most part come directly from their origin so acclimating them to domestic water and conditions of a glass cage would invariably be a challenge however, it is a continued mental obstacle when those that keep wilds tell us that they have gone to very specific conditions to keep them and that those specific conditions would limit the average discus keeper from having them. Just my opinion and thank you for bringing up the question. Rufus

[William Palumbo]

I also noted not too much difference. IME wilds were always more outgoing. The first fish to rush for food or eat from my hand, which always amused me. I have kept them in the EXTREME opposite of where they originated from and they seemed just fine. Keeping and breeding were the same for both wilds and domestics. Wild Discus can be poor spawners and bad parents just like the domestics, and throw their fair share of culls as well...Bill

[brewmaster15]

I've been waiting for someone to admit first of all that they have kept wild and domestics together and secondly to bring the question up as to wether or not they can be kept together. It seems so daunting for so many of us to assume that those of us that keep domestics only would have to have even more special conditions for wilds. Sometimes it even seems that those of us that keep domestics only are .....difficult to say this but it needs to be said, that we are some how less challenged keeping domestics and there fore less committed to the hobby. I have continually grown more fascinated with keeping wilds but have hesitated in doing so because it would seem that I wouldn't be able to meet the conditions needed to keep them. Yet, I have seven tanks of domestic discus and they are healthy and growing and a joy to keep. I have often wondered why there is such a difference. I understand that Wilds are caught and for the most part come directly from their origin so acclimating them to domestic water and conditions of a glass cage would invariably be a challenge however, it is a continued mental obstacle when those that keep wilds tell us that they have gone to very specific conditions to keep them and that those specific conditions would limit the average discus keeper from having them. Just my opinion and thank you for bringing up the question. Rufus
OKAY Yes...I admit it.I have done so many times.I have also bred them together as well. There is nothing wrong with keeping domestic and wilds together.
Hth
Al

[Rudustin]

Thank you Yun for bringing up the topic and Al and William for the replies and the answer to a question that I have had for sometime and yet been reluctant to bring it up. So, that means another tank should be in the future for some wilds! Thanks again. Rufus

[Second Hand Pat]

Rufus, I have kept domestics and wilds together. I had two female domestics pair with wild males. I have also keep wilds in my tap water and do very well but I prefer to keep the wilds in water closer to their native waters.

Like Bill I have successfully had wild pairs form and spawn. I personally think it is more difficult to get wild discus to pair and spawn. If breeding wilds was the same as breeding domestics we would hear about wilds spawning more frequently.

[ericNH]

I feel that the evolution argument is not directly applicable. Darwinian evolution occurs over many generations, and we haven't been breeding them long enough for that to happen, as you correctly said. However, we selectively breed discus for specific traits, and under human control this selective breeding can take a much faster and direct route than in nature.

[nc0gnet0]

I feel that the evolution argument is not directly applicable. Darwinian evolution occurs over many generations, and we haven't been breeding them long enough for that to happen, as you correctly said. However, we selectively breed discus for specific traits, and under human control this selective breeding can take a much faster and direct route than in nature.

Nailed it.

[pcsb23]

I have a slightly different take on water parameters and the discus tolerance to them.

Having spoken with people who live and work on the Amazon as well as a number of collectors it becomes clear that at some times of the year the discus is exposed to fairly extreme conditions, for example in some of the summer months they can be exposed to extremely high temperatures, high conductivity yet very low pH, in the wetter months they get exposed to cooler temps and higher pH levels, yet lower conductivity. I know those statements seem the wrong way round, but that is what has been observed by people living and working there.

Given that I would argue that the discus is already genetically adapted to deal with varying water conditions, and given my own observations of keeping wild caught and domestic discus from a variety of sources I'd certainly suggest that they are very tolerant of changes in water parameters.

I'm sure that there has been some changes due to selective breeding, but even Stendker breeds his fish in water with low conductivity and pH :)

[Rudustin]

Rufus, I have kept domestics and wilds together. I had two female domestics pair with wild males. I have also keep wilds in my tap water and do very well but I prefer to keep the wilds in water closer to their native waters.

Like Bill I have successfully had wild pairs form and spawn. I personally think it is more difficult to get wild discus to pair and spawn. If breeding wilds was the same as breeding domestics we would hear about wilds spawning more frequently. Pat, I appreciate your view. My concern is that perhaps many hobbyists, myself included, don't consider wilds due to the assumption that their water parameters are more complicated so with that said perhaps knowing that domestics and wilds have been and are being kept with the same water parameters may give some of us a motivation to keep wilds and then perhaps we will see more spawning of wilds in the hobby. Rufus

[brewmaster15]

Pat, I appreciate your view. My concern is that perhaps many hobbyists, myself included, don't consider wilds due to the assumption that their water parameters are more complicated so with that said perhaps knowing that domestics and wilds have been and are being kept with the same water parameters may give some of us a motivation to keep wilds and then perhaps we will see more spawning of wilds in the hobby. Rufus
For alot of hobbyists one of the key factors in choosing domestics over wilds is the more colorful domestics are generally more appealing to most,imo.

Hth,al

[YSS]

That could be up to 100 generations out of the wild. Compared to humans 100 generations is about 2000 years. Are our bodies any different in our ability to adapt to different conditions and ability to fight diseases from 2000 years ago? Discounting medical advances.

Sorry, but don't agree with the statement.


I feel that the evolution argument is not directly applicable. Darwinian evolution occurs over many generations, and we haven't been breeding them long enough for that to happen, as you correctly said. However, we selectively breed discus for specific traits, and under human control this selective breeding can take a much faster and direct route than in nature.

This applies for color and shape, may be, but not for something like being able to adapt to different water condition in such short period.


I have a slightly different take on water parameters and the discus tolerance to them.

Having spoken with people who live and work on the Amazon as well as a number of collectors it becomes clear that at some times of the year the discus is exposed to fairly extreme conditions, for example in some of the summer months they can be exposed to extremely high temperatures, high conductivity yet very low pH, in the wetter months they get exposed to cooler temps and higher pH levels, yet lower conductivity. I know those statements seem the wrong way round, but that is what has been observed by people living and working there.

Given that I would argue that the discus is already genetically adapted to deal with varying water conditions, and given my own observations of keeping wild caught and domestic discus from a variety of sources I'd certainly suggest that they are very tolerant of changes in water parameters.

I'm sure that there has been some changes due to selective breeding, but even Stendker breeds his fish in water with low conductivity and pH :)

My point is that discus, wild or domestic, would fare better in water condition that resembles their natural water condition. Most of discus get sick often in our care. In my experiences, discus are most fragile fish that get sick more often any other fish I kept. But I believe that discus would be much more resilient if kept in water condition that's more like water in the Amazons.

[Larry Bugg]

In my experiences, discus are most fragile fish that get sick more often any other fish I kept.

Yun, I know you said in your experience but this statement seems to be one that is made often and I don't agree with it. I believe that due to the cost of discus we hear more about discus illness than we do with other fish but in reality they don't necessarily get sick more than other aquarium fish at least not because of water parameters of Ph, temp, or hardness. Water quality is a different story. When people have a $5 angel or tetra get sick and die they don't bring the issue to the forums, they just go out and buy another one but I bet there are more deaths of these fish than there are of discus. Because of the cost we put more emphasis on discus illness and report it more often.

As for parameters for keeping wilds and/or domestics, I have always said I don't really do anything different. I don't treat my wild tanks any differently than I do my domestic tanks with one exception. I don't do as many large (50% or more) water changes on my wild tanks. Now it is important to note that my water is very soft and acidic so I am already in the range they live in the wild. I have always been told that keeping wilds in softer water will cause them to show their colors better. Since my water is soft, I can't confirm or deny this.

I do believe based on my experience that there are indeed some differences in behavior. As already mentioned by others I can attest to the fact that pairing and breeding wild pairs is more difficult. Without many exceptions, I can take a fertile domestic male and female and put them in one of my breeder tanks and eventually they will breed. I have had wilds on and off for almost 5 years. With the exception of a wild pair that came to me as a wild pair, I have had no success breeding wilds. I hope to break that spell this winter but only time will tell. I have successfully bred wild to domestic.

Another difference that I have noticed it the amount of time it takes for wilds to settle into a tank. With domestics it usually only takes a few days to a week or so for them to settle and fully show their color. With wilds this may be more like months than weeks.

One last difference is that for me I find that my wilds have a tendency to form a tighter group than domestics. While there is still a definite pecking order I find that my wilds stay more as a group. One of my first groups of wilds were wild greens and I would sit for ever watching them swim as a group/family from one side of the 125 back to the other. When the leader decided to move to the other side the entire group would follow. I don't think we see this behavior as much with a group of domestics.

[seiya4711]

Hey Brew,
Thought I'd bring this old thread up...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43155-An-Observation-on-wilds-vs-Domestics&highlight=brewmaster15+wild+discus+oxygen
Hi all,
Having spent a considerable amount of time with both wild discus and domestics I have often thought that the wilds were hardier, got over illnesses quicker etc.. Maybe its the genetic makeup..I don't know.. but i have heard the same from others with wilds and domestics...

This has always been a perception of mine...until yesterday. I Now believe that there is a real hardiness difference in at least one area.. Oxygen depravation.


I had a major boo-boo yesterday... I was multi-tasking during a water change...got a call and forgot about the tank draining. In that tank was a group of Domestics and wilds ...all about the same 3-4" size. They were my future breeders... and I really baby them... Imagine my horror... when 5 hours latter... I walk in the room and theres 4 inches of water for a 35 fish in a 125 gal.tank.. All The wilds were gulping air, gills laboring , but color intact, and alert.. a few even foraging..

The domestics... that was scary.. They consisted on cobalts, snakeskins, and Red turks... most were on their side... barely alive... eyes glazed over...gills slow...Their color.. mottled brown patched.. , muscles...looking rigid... I think another few minutes and all would be dead.

I did a rapid water change... threw in 10 mls of hydrogen peroxide and while the tank was filling i aerated the heck out of the water with a spray hose.

Then watched.

The result... I lost one domestic, and scared myself to death. The other domestics recovered over the next few hours.... But I am sure now that wilds tolerate low oxygen conditions better than domestics., and are at least in the case of oxygen...hardier... It was like night and day the way the two groups responded...I can only guess that it has to do with conditions the wilds face in the Amazon during the dry season.

It also makes me wonder if oxygen therapy of some sort might now be beneficial to fish under certain stress conditions.

Its an old post of yours..2005...I wonder if you have any other thoughts on this?

Ryuho

[brewmaster15]

Hi Ryuho,
Thats an old thread alright...2005... I had always wanted to follow up those observations, but never had a chance. It was an isolated observation, but yes...I think theres a good possibility that the wilds may tolerate lower dissolved oxygen better than domestics...but I have no hard proof..just that one observation I had shared. Would make for some good experiments.
-al

[brewmaster15]

Hey Rufus,
From the thread just mentioned..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5185&d=1114682549

Theres your pic of wilds and domestics together. :)
-al

[Rudustin]

Hey Rufus,
From the thread just mentioned..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5185&d=1114682549

Theres your pic of wilds and domestics together. :)
-al
Al, thank you for the picture. Really appreciated and those fish are stunning. I have four Altum Floras and two more coming at the end of the month from Kenny. I think I shall look into a few wilds and try them out with the AFs. I believed you but of course this does give me a true picture of the possibility. Rufus

[Rudustin]

Hey Brew,
Thought I'd bring this old thread up...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43155-An-Observation-on-wilds-vs-Domestics&highlight=brewmaster15+wild+discus+oxygen
Hi all,
Having spent a considerable amount of time with both wild discus and domestics I have often thought that the wilds were hardier, got over illnesses quicker etc.. Maybe its the genetic makeup..I don't know.. but i have heard the same from others with wilds and domestics...

This has always been a perception of mine...until yesterday. I Now believe that there is a real hardiness difference in at least one area.. Oxygen depravation.


I had a major boo-boo yesterday... I was multi-tasking during a water change...got a call and forgot about the tank draining. In that tank was a group of Domestics and wilds ...all about the same 3-4" size. They were my future breeders... and I really baby them... Imagine my horror... when 5 hours latter... I walk in the room and theres 4 inches of water for a 35 fish in a 125 gal.tank.. All The wilds were gulping air, gills laboring , but color intact, and alert.. a few even foraging..

The domestics... that was scary.. They consisted on cobalts, snakeskins, and Red turks... most were on their side... barely alive... eyes glazed over...gills slow...Their color.. mottled brown patched.. , muscles...looking rigid... I think another few minutes and all would be dead.

I did a rapid water change... threw in 10 mls of hydrogen peroxide and while the tank was filling i aerated the heck out of the water with a spray hose.

Then watched.

The result... I lost one domestic, and scared myself to death. The other domestics recovered over the next few hours.... But I am sure now that wilds tolerate low oxygen conditions better than domestics., and are at least in the case of oxygen...hardier... It was like night and day the way the two groups responded...I can only guess that it has to do with conditions the wilds face in the Amazon during the dry season.

It also makes me wonder if oxygen therapy of some sort might now be beneficial to fish under certain stress conditions.

Its an old post of yours..2005...I wonder if you have any other thoughts on this?

Ryuho
Ryuho, Thank you for posting the science of the wilds. I read through it. Fascinating. Thanks for sharing. Rufus

[ref0716]

Interesting discussion. The OP said that he believed that Discus have been domestically bred for less than 100 years. I'm pretty sure he is correct, and for what it's worth, I think maybe about 65 years is a closer guess. A reference book by Axelrod credits W. T. Dodd with being the first to spawn discus in 1949. If memory serves, Jack Wattley developed his strains of Turquoise fish in the 1960's and then more and more strains proliferated from him and others.
It seems reasonable to me that in such a short span of time, few if any genetic changes have taken place. If wild discus are indeed more difficult to keep, maybe it is just because they are wild. The whole process of capture, transport and life in a fish tank has to be stressful. Couple that with the fact that wild caught fish are likely to have parasite issues that need to be addressed leading to more stress.
I believe that if those issues are recognized and resolved, keeping such wild specimens should be no different from keeping fish raised in captivity.
Just my two cents. Take care, and be nice to your fish.
Ricahrd

[brewmaster15]

I Think theres more to the question than how long discus have been captive bred...In genetics we are talking about populations.... The smaller a population is,the easier it is for a mutation to become fixed.. Its why we humans frown on siblings having children.
When discus were first being domesticated we arent talking about some large population where changes would be diluted...we are talking about a handful of discus that probably are the starting stock of much of what became our domestics..Anytime a sub population becomes reproductively or geographically isolated it is far more likely to diverge from its main population.
I do wonder if we could have started this process as early as those first few fish that were bred and then grown out and used as stock for breeding. It may seem like not alot of time has passed...but given the small starting populations..it may have been plenty of time...at least it would match what happens in natural populations of animals.
hth,
al

[thomasasalvatore]

Would domestics have any chance at all in the wild?

[brewmaster15]

My guess is yes...some strains that don't stand out too much would...and they would be absorbed by the population.

However if enough survived they could potentially form a
a subpopulation.

Its a numbers game.
Imo,
al

[JamesP]

As some of you know I have bred Tefe wilds and a Heckel with a domestic along with many domestic varieties of Discus. In general I agree Domestic and Wilds are not to different to raise. Breeding Tefe's and Blues was relatively easy for me. The Heckel was a challenge with much more specific water conditions. The F1 Heckel crosses prove to be much more like the Heckel but once paired are very productive. Water quality for all Discus is the key if you are not breeding them. Clean non specific water conditions is what they need. Color may improve with specific parameters, but I believe it is more related to pre breeding hormones vs water parameters directly impacting their color.
I have found in my experience Wilds once acclimated are better feeders and more receptive to a variety of foods than Domestics. The Wilds are more aggressive when it comes to pairing and seem to get more jumpy/startled literally when they get their breeding hormones flowing. I have lost my fair share with pre spawning young adults. F1 Heckel crosses were very prone to this. I ended up adding rocks to the top of their tanks.
When breeding Heckels they require very soft water with very high Tannins. I literally used a flashlight to verify the spawn and fry. I find the wilds tend to settle in better with darker water. I typically use a piece of driftwood to discolor the water. The replacement water is not discolored and will darken over time.
I encourage everyone to try wilds. But just as with any new fish QT is very important. With Wilds I QT them with no meds. Just a lot of clean water. I use tap which is over 300ppm and PH of 8.1. They do fine and I can change the water more frequently using tap. I don't believe in de worming or treating unless the fish has symptoms. Clean water reduces their stress and decreases symptoms as well. GOOD Luck with Wilds they are nothing to be intimidated by. As Larry said they are not fragile just need clean conditions.

Jim

[YSS]

Yun, I know you said in your experience but this statement seems to be one that is made often and I don't agree with it. I believe that due to the cost of discus we hear more about discus illness than we do with other fish but in reality they don't necessarily get sick more than other aquarium fish at least not because of water parameters of Ph, temp, or hardness. Water quality is a different story. When people have a $5 angel or tetra get sick and die they don't bring the issue to the forums, they just go out and buy another one but I bet there are more deaths of these fish than there are of discus. Because of the cost we put more emphasis on discus illness and report it more often.

As for parameters for keeping wilds and/or domestics, I have always said I don't really do anything different. I don't treat my wild tanks any differently than I do my domestic tanks with one exception. I don't do as many large (50% or more) water changes on my wild tanks. Now it is important to note that my water is very soft and acidic so I am already in the range they live in the wild. I have always been told that keeping wilds in softer water will cause them to show their colors better. Since my water is soft, I can't confirm or deny this.

I do believe based on my experience that there are indeed some differences in behavior. As already mentioned by others I can attest to the fact that pairing and breeding wild pairs is more difficult. Without many exceptions, I can take a fertile domestic male and female and put them in one of my breeder tanks and eventually they will breed. I have had wilds on and off for almost 5 years. With the exception of a wild pair that came to me as a wild pair, I have had no success breeding wilds. I hope to break that spell this winter but only time will tell. I have successfully bred wild to domestic.

Another difference that I have noticed it the amount of time it takes for wilds to settle into a tank. With domestics it usually only takes a few days to a week or so for them to settle and fully show their color. With wilds this may be more like months than weeks.

One last difference is that for me I find that my wilds have a tendency to form a tighter group than domestics. While there is still a definite pecking order I find that my wilds stay more as a group. One of my first groups of wilds were wild greens and I would sit for ever watching them swim as a group/family from one side of the 125 back to the other. When the leader decided to move to the other side the entire group would follow. I don't think we see this behavior as much with a group of domestics.

True on people paying less attention to cheaper tetras. I have lost a lot of tetras over the times, but my water parameters were most likely not close to their natural habitat. My reference of comparisons were to other bigger cichlids from similar regions and African cichlids (as they are other cichlids I've kept). I've had no issues keeping those guys alive or have those guys get sick or have issues mixing fish from different sources. It blows my mind that you have to worry so much about mixing fish from different sources like we do with discus. I have to say that discus are one of the most fragile fish that I have ever kept. It's not a matter of opinion, but it's based on my experiences.

The point I'm making here is that domestic and wild discus should not require different water parameters that is necessary to have them thrive. So often in the forum, people state that as long as the water parameters are stable that's fine for discus. I'm saying that it may be ok for the fish to live, but certainly not an ideal condition for the fish if the water condition is so far from their natural habitat. If the water conditions is fine for domestic discus, they are fine for wilds and vice versa. If hard water with high pH is not an ideal condition for wild, then it is not for domestic discus.

[plecocicho]

As far as oygen goes, wildss couls be little more tolerant of low oygen levels. The backwaters, their natural habitat is also the habitat of oscars. Study has proven that oscars are more tolerant to low oygen and hypoxia.

[Crunchy]

One generation is enough for adaptation. Evolution and adaptation are very different.

[oliverk]

I feel that the evolution argument is not directly applicable. Darwinian evolution occurs over many generations, and we haven't been breeding them long enough for that to happen, as you correctly said. However, we selectively breed discus for specific traits, and under human control this selective breeding can take a much faster and direct route than in nature.


Does anyone know if breeders have been selectively breeding for greater PH tolerance? Would be fairly simple in a large scale operation progressively treat less for lower PH and pick the best of the survivors.

Dogs generally were bred for something and much can be done in just a few generations, and if you talk to many dog folks the show ring in many cases has "bred" out many of the characteristics that the breed was originally bred to do, and they become just an idealized look, sometimes being jokingly referred to as the Barbie version of the breed. Too the breeders sometimes breed against negative traits such as hip dysplasia, heart issues, etc. and much is done to improve the health in a relatively short period. Many of the breed websites etc often have such discussions and sometimes can document the overall improvement of hip evaluation scores over time. Cattle breeders and horse breeders have used line breeding to successfully do much to achieve improvements in their respective animals.... better speed, lower fat, and etc.

I believe it possible but think there should be some, at least, oral history of trying to make discus more PH tolerant as an objective or a secondary objective. Has anyone heard of such an objective by discus breeders?

Does anyone know when captive bred discus became generally more PH tolerant than wilds? For those who have wilds with captive breds how high has your PH ranged out of the generally accepted wild targets?

Ran into someone online who must be an adult now and he mentioned that he loved discus as a kid tried them had PH issues and all fairly quickly died. Said the pet store blamed the PH...... Don't know what really happened of course, but looked for this thread to maybe tell him that "Yes PH was a real issue but seems to have faded away due to breeder intervention about X years ago" So what would X be?

-------
Oh by the way my to young to breed discus have laid the second set of eggs in my tank that has PH well out of the range for wilds. Both sets were eaten so don't know if they were fertile eggs or were properly fertilized but took the SimplyDiscus community advice keep feeding well and ..... the ones of the ten that were smaller also seem to be catching up in size and all appear to be changing colors. Possible breeders have been breeding for quicker maturation as well?

Anyone had success in breeding in higher PH? From the reading I've done the refrain generally goes don't worry about PH unless breeding or wilds...... but I am at least getting eggs and early at that.

Could discus be continuing to adapt to higher PH and now be successfully bred in higher PH water - I know they lay eggs!

[XAnhLe]

Does anyone know if breeders have been selectively breeding for greater PH tolerance? Would be fairly simple in a large scale operation progressively treat less for lower PH and pick the best of the survivors.

Dogs generally were bred for something and much can be done in just a few generations, and if you talk to many dog folks the show ring in many cases has "bred" out many of the characteristics that the breed was originally bred to do, and they become just an idealized look, sometimes being jokingly referred to as the Barbie version of the breed. Too the breeders sometimes breed against negative traits such as hip dysplasia, heart issues, etc. and much is done to improve the health in a relatively short period. Many of the breed websites etc often have such discussions and sometimes can document the overall improvement of hip evaluation scores over time. Cattle breeders and horse breeders have used line breeding to successfully do much to achieve improvements in their respective animals.... better speed, lower fat, and etc.

I believe it possible but think there should be some, at least, oral history of trying to make discus more PH tolerant as an objective or a secondary objective. Has anyone heard of such an objective by discus breeders?

Does anyone know when captive bred discus became generally more PH tolerant than wilds? For those who have wilds with captive breds how high has your PH ranged out of the generally accepted wild targets?

I think pH is more about adaptation than evolution. Like previous post mention, it can take one generation for discus to adapt to the environment. You don't really need to selectively breed for that. You can adapt wilds to hardier water slowly over time, the same way you think about acclimating fish. It can takes as fast as F1 for wilds to totally adapt to hardier condition than their natural environment.

[John_Nicholson]

Ph does not have anything to do with it really. It is all about the hardness of the water.

-john

[YSS]

How would anyone selectively breed fish to be more tolerant to a different water condition than they existed for over thousands of years, if not longer? For each generation, I would think the fish learn to adapt to the water condition they are exposed to survive, but not genetically change to be prefer different water conditions. What water conditions do discus breeders use? Paul already stated that Stendker breeds his fish in soft water. So his fish are like wild discus preferring and thriving in soft water. Do breeders in Asia breed and raise discus in hard water? So, if preference of water can be selectively bred out in short amount of time as some suggested, then we have some discus that prefer hard water and some prefer soft water?

[blueluv]

How would anyone selectively breed fish to be more tolerant to a different water condition than they existed for over thousands of years, if not longer? For each generation, I would think the fish learn to adapt to the water condition they are exposed to survive, but not genetically change to be prefer different water conditions. What water conditions do discus breeders use? Paul already stated that Stendker breeds his fish in soft water. So his fish are like wild discus preferring and thriving in soft water. Do breeders in Asia breed and raise discus in hard water? So, if preference of water can be selectively bred out in short amount of time as some suggested, then we have some discus that prefer hard water and some prefer soft water?
I would like to just point one thing out here. Yes stendker does use soft water to get a good hatch rate but eventually they'll raise the fry in tap water.

[William Palumbo]

IME I always had good luck with the German strains breeding well in harder water than my Asian, and wild strains. I set the water parameters accordingly for the two types. That being said...Discus are what they are, and you're not going to change their "mechanics" not anytime soon, if ever...Bill

[YSS]

I would like to just point one thing out here. Yes stendker does use soft water to get a good hatch rate but eventually they'll raise the fry in tap water.

By doing so, physiology of discus that is better suited for soft water is being selectively bred out?

[DISCUS STU]

Hi Yun,

In general, my domestics seem to be hardier than my Wild Discus. Evolution in nature may be one thing while selective breeding and "survival of the fittest" (Darwin) are two other things entirely. I say "in general" because there are also domestic strains that may not be all that hardy and that is also probably due to the genetic hand they've been dealt through selective breeding. Many of these strains don't last in the marketplace for various reasons.

Recent observations of adaptive evolution, such as the lengths of crow's beaks in the Galapagos Islands, have shown animals that can change characteristics, evolve, very quickly, within a generation or two, in reaction to sudden changes in their environments. I recently saw a documentary about African Cichlids showing these fish to be one of the quickest, most evolutionarily adaptive groups ever studied, much more so than humans.

My thinking has those Wild Discus that were inherently more adaptable to sometimes less than optimal water conditions in captivity and other factors not found in the wild, to probably be the Discus that will most likely be healthy enough to breed in captivity and pass along their stronger characteristics to their offspring.

In domestically line bred Discus we've already seen genetics tweaked tremendously in regard to color, Pigeon Bloods, Blue Diamonds, etc., and Discus shape. It only stands to reason that traits regarding hardiness, disease resistance, and other preferable factors would also be passed along, even though they aren't necessarily deliberately bred for these traits but may be a byproduct of the process. Usually newbies ask what strains are the hardiest with the answer usually coming back as Pigeon Bloods, Red Turquoise, and maybe one or two others. Some domestic Discus do seem stronger, more tolerant, than others.

So yes, I believe there may be something to the assertion that Domestic Discus may be stronger, hardier, and or more disease resistant than Wild Discus.

[oliverk]

A couple of points ----- There is a famous moth that flys around London that was white, then black and then white/grey again - the predominate change was the amount of coal smoke soot and pollution in the London environment. Its country cousin never changed.

---------------
Wasn't there a plane crash of captive discus in the Amazon a couple of decades ago that affected color of "wild discus". Could those fish now reintroduced into the wild also be affecting ease of aquarium adaptation?

--------------
Are there different diseases in the wild than in an aquarium setting?

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So are "captive" discus now also breeding in harder higher PH water?

[jmf3460]

there was a plane full of domestic discus flying over the amazon and crashed?? this is too ironic to believe. how many fish survived??

[DISCUS STU]

This sounds like a tall fish story!

[Reesj]

Many people comparing wilds and Domestics have missed a huge point so far!
INBREEDING! Most discus bred have come from huge amount of inbreeding to get their characteristics. Even people buying tend to pick fish from same lot and promote even more in breeding!

[Maven]

How would anyone selectively breed fish to be more tolerant to a different water condition than they existed for over thousands of years, if not longer? For each generation, I would think the fish learn to adapt to the water condition they are exposed to survive, but not genetically change to be prefer different water conditions. What water conditions do discus breeders use? Paul already stated that Stendker breeds his fish in soft water. So his fish are like wild discus preferring and thriving in soft water. Do breeders in Asia breed and raise discus in hard water? So, if preference of water can be selectively bred out in short amount of time as some suggested, then we have some discus that prefer hard water and some prefer soft water?

I had to weigh in on this topic. As a biology teacher, I can’t pass up a great evolution discussion. Simply put, evolution is change over time. Changes can be as simple as a slight color change or dramatic resulting in the formation of new species. Slight changes within a population can occur very rapidly, over a few generations if the conditions are right (ex: genetic drift). Dramatic changes, like those that result in a new species, typically require MANY generations and therefore require time. So on a time scale, evolution can be witnessed in a short or longer period of time depending on what change you are observing. But I digress… onto discus

One important thing to remember is that variation within a population is the key to evolution. In the wild there are naturally going to be fish that are more tolerant to changes in water parameters and all together “hardier”. There will also be fish that are extremely sensitive and the slightest water change or stress could result in their demise. All comes down to their genetics. When we move these wild fish into our aquariums some of them make it and others unfortunately perish. Typically the “hardier” fish will be the ones to survive. We then bred these “survivor” fish and they pass along their genes that enabled them to be better equipped to handle our environmental conditions. Over several generations you now have domestic discus that typically handle our water conditions better than say a wild discus and display a greater ability to survive all because they possess the genes that enable them to do so. This change in the discus ability to handle water changes is viewed as a type of evolution. But we have caused evolution with the species by just generating the array of different patterns we enjoy within the discus (selective breeding).

Now can wild discus survive with domestics? I don’t see any reason why they can’t. The only direct concern should be from pathogens. So long as you begin with a “hardy” wild discus that can survive the initial water parameters switch, the only concern remaining would be parasites. Proper QT procedure should take care of most pathogens. As a last fail safe I would finish off with using a “hero fish” from my main tank to place in my QT tank to insure that everyone can survive together.

I plan on introducing a wild caught discus to my show tank at some point in my future. I’ve greatly enjoyed everyone’s discussion and opinions on the topic in this thread.

[YSS]

Very well put, Stu and Maven. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Returning back to the original question posed is one definitely difference is breeding. Many wilds keepers want to breed their wild fish but the darn fish simply will not cooperate. Wild male discus will breed fairly readily with wild or domestic females but the wild female is a different story.
Pat

[Ardan]

Returning back to the original question posed is one definitely difference is breeding. Many wilds keepers want to breed their wild fish but the darn fish simply will not cooperate. Wild male discus will breed fairly readily with wild or domestic females but the wild female is a different story.
Pat
Interesting. I guess the wild female just isn't getting things exactly to her liking.
Someday maybe I will try wilds, but will have to make a lot of RO here. It does look challenging and interesting.

Ardan

[pitdogg2]

Personally I'd like to see more Wild morph type for sale. I find it strange that there are not more say F27 Tefe's or any other wild strains that have been raised in the domestic climate for many many generations. Why do we only see either "wild" or the Asian bubble gum varieties? Even Jack Wattley's site looks little different than any Asian breeder's site. Now this is my opinion only but how long until we see "bubble eyes" or "lion head" type coming from Asia? Myself I have never seen a wild Discus that had long dorsal streamers but we see it all the time with Asian varieties. Please do not take my comments wrong I'm not slamming the Asian Breeders. I just do not understand why we must have a new flavor of the month instead of the very beautiful morph that nature has provided and nice strong genetics. One day we may need these stable wild morphs to re-populate areas that have been decimated by whatever in the home range. Think Lake Victoria in Africa. If it wasn't for breeders that kept them clean and the same as in the lake there may of been NONE to help after that Nile Perch introduction. Do we have a C.A.R.E.S. for discus?

[William Palumbo]

LOL...Tired of the "Bubble Gum" strains as well. But they sell. Offer the same old fish with a new name...and it sells faster, and for more! Love the wilds. I believe Wattley are mostly Asian blood, if not completely. As Pat said, the wild females are the stubborn ones, but other than that strains are not really all that different...Bill

[winn0923]

Well there is also "bubble gum" for African cichlids, take peacocks for examples. I do agree, for some reason with other cichlids, I feel like people appreciate the "wild" factor a lot more. Like pointed out earlier C.A.R.E.S plays a big part in this. Personally, I kept big haps before and I would get most of them wild caught, and even some mbuna I would prefer the wild caught type. Even for SA cichlids, the search after wild caught fish is fairly high, especially for geo like daemon or proximus or even the uaru now a day. For some reason I guess within the discus community the wild bug has not really arrived yet.

[YSS]

can you say raffleasia?

[pitdogg2]

Well there is also "bubble gum" for African cichlids, take peacocks for examples. I do agree,

Yep understand completely take a very beautiful fish "Peacock" and the "OB" it to look like a Zebra cichlid. Well I say if you want a Zebra buy a Zebra, like peacocks many flavor's of them in the wild at every different rocky outcrop.

[pitdogg2]

LOL...Tired of the "Bubble Gum" strains as well. But they sell. Offer the same old fish with a new name...and it sells faster, and for more! Love the wilds. I believe Wattley are mostly Asian blood, if not completely. As Pat said, the wild females are the stubborn ones, but other than that strains are not really all that different...Bill

Well wouldn't the F12's from a wild female be a little looser? so to say:p

[Second Hand Pat]

Well wouldn't the F12's from a wild female be a little looser? so to say:p

Could be as it would be a domestic :p

[nc0gnet0]

But we have caused evolution with the species by just generating the array of different patterns we enjoy within the discus (selective breeding).

I do not agree with this statement. Genetic manipulation does not equal evolution. In some instances, it might actually counter evolution.

[Maven]

I do not agree with this statement. Genetic manipulation does not equal evolution. In some instances, it might actually counter evolution.

Well, evolution is any change in the heritable traits of biological populations over several generations. Natural selection is when nature causes traits within an organism to change. Selective Breeding is a type of artificial selection in which people (instead of nature) select which organisms get to reproduce; therefore, changing the traits within an organism.

Now I totally agree with you that when we intervene and select for traits we like it doesn’t necessarily make for the healthiest of organisms. Look at dog breeds for examples. Dachshunds were great for hunting small game and look cute, but the poor things suffer from many health problems as a result. A discus example could be when another person mentioned earlier that perhaps some strains of discus look great but could be considered a little more fragile or difficult to keep. Evolution is simply any change in traits over time.

[oliverk]

Ok so if changes can be made to discus tolerance of water, in this day and age of climate change, clean water is difficult to find even in so called rich countries like the US (how many areas have had drought restrictions and limitations on water use - mine in Houston has - used to live in CA in the 1990's and there were some then there too and .....) it seems like something that the discus breeders should do - breed for easier to have and advertise that 20, 50, 100% water changes are not necessary - only change when necessary and breed the fish to be beautiful and increasingly tolerant of at least normal aquarium fresh water.

Think too as this develops the community should quickly encourage less water usage practices......

Otherwise Discus will develop a bad reputation and perhaps become outlawed, have additional taxes imposed on them or........ just as cities in the US single out pit bulls in the dog world as problematic and make special rules for them.

[oliverk]

Simply lets make it cool to have the minimal water change rather than the maximum water change (less chemicals too) while having growing and breeding discus.

[nc0gnet0]

Simply lets make it cool to have the minimal water change rather than the maximum water change (less chemicals too) while having growing and breeding discus.


Wow, just wow. We already have that by the way.........google "goldfish"

[oliverk]

Hmm well goldfish are among the most accepted fish in the marketplace, Shubunkins (sp) are similar and so are Koi perhaps the most successful in the market place. Over breeding and line breeding can be a problem losing the essential nature of the breed,,,, this is often complained of in dogs - esp herding or protective that the fundamental traits are bred out in favor of ring and home docility.

I guess my question is what do we want from fish - is it the challenge of difficult but manageable to keep and a demonstration of achievement or something decorative for the home/office - or perhaps a bit of both.

Did you notice gov Jerry Brown was on This Week this morning discussing his ACCELARATION of water projects and water regulations in light of the continuing and persistant drought in CA? We have already had changes in how toilets work and how many gallons are used in a flush.... Brown mentioned that golf courses were all going to have to use grey water. ...... The world is changing and clean potable water is becoming something to consider.....

Ok now lets consider a 100gal tank with 12 discus in it. Some do 100% water change ... that's 365,000 gallons of water per year for ornamental fish? In a time where you have to ask for water in many places at the restaurant dinner table - even fancy places in St Helena (wine country CA). Duck your head but I suspect that smart discus breeders should be developing strains that do not need such intensive water useage. Might be better in any event of global warming,,,,, There may be a reason Koi are so successful in the market place, and I thought perhaps that Discus breeders had already been working in these regards to make them more PH tolerant so easier for people to enjoy..... Hence my resurrection of the thread.... also wanted to be able to tell my friend that this had been at least a noted side effect of the collective captive breeding programs.

Sigh..... many love goldfish, don't sneer, bet you had them as your intro into aquarium keeping...... Personally, I think there are enough challenges in discus keeping raising and finding a good place in 21st century aquarium keeping to want them to be less water intensive users. If the community doesn't go there I suspect that in a global warming hard to have enough clean water environment the various governments will help the community.....

[William Palumbo]

LOL...First off, no disrespect to the Goldfish or their keepers. But Discus are NOT Goldfish. Not even close. No one will EVER breed a Discus to tolerate crappy water. They need fresh water. The bottom line, if you or anyone else is worried about water...Discus are NOT for you. You want to save water...leave Discus alone. Pretty simple...Bill

[Chaz88]

Ok now lets consider a 100gal tank with 12 discus in it. Some do 100% water change ... that's 365,000 gallons of water per year for ornamental fish?

I think that works out to a somewhat less shocking number of 36,500 gallons a year.

[nc0gnet0]

LOL...First off, no disrespect to the Goldfish or their keepers. But Discus are NOT Goldfish. Not even close. No one will EVER breed a Discus to tolerate crappy water. They need fresh water. The bottom line, if you or anyone else is worried about water...Discus are NOT for you. You want to save water...leave Discus alone. Pretty simple...Bill


Not too mention Koi keepers are quite cognizant of the effects of clean water. Not talking about your Wal-Mart Koi. Some of the most intricate filtration systems owned by hobbyist belong to koi keepers.


Might be better in any event of global warming,,,,, There may be a reason Koi are so successful in the market place, and I thought perhaps that Discus breeders had already been working in these regards to make them more PH tolerant so easier for people to enjoy.....


If your concerned about water usage, water your vegetable garden with the dirty water.

The solution to climate change is simple. Reduce the worlds population by 50%. This can be done in as little as two generations by placing regulations on those allowed to pro-create.

[nc0gnet0]

Hmm well goldfish are among the most accepted fish in the marketplace, Sigh..... many love goldfish,.......... blah blah blah....... don't sneer, bet you had them as your intro into aquarium keeping......

Ok, nobody is sneering at goldfish. My response went over your head. The point I was trying to make, albeit tongue in cheek, was what you were proposing to do would be to essentially create a new species....... My point was, we already have that species-they are called goldfish. So rather than trying to selectively breed discus to tolerate goldfish conditions, why don't you just start breeding goldfish to look like discus?

As to the original post, are wilds different than domestics? Not much, if at all, with the exception of some of the mutations we choose to propagate.

As to the discussion on domestic breeding allowing for more tolerance in harder water and higher pH, I am not so sure that the main factor at play here is subtle differences in genetics or just plain acclimation. I would ponder a guess that both have a role, but I believe that the latter is more responsible than the former.

[DISCUS STU]

Many people comparing wilds and Domestics have missed a huge point so far!
INBREEDING! Most discus bred have come from huge amount of inbreeding to get their characteristics. Even people buying tend to pick fish from same lot and promote even more in breeding!

Inbreeding can promote bad genetics and lead to genetic dead ends but there's also something called "Hybrid Vigor" which promotes stronger characteristics through line breeding and this too might also be referred to as a type of "in breeding".

I believe the Pigeon Blood strain might be the result of this though originally this was a morph that was purely accidental
and then deliberately line bred. see these links...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hybrid+vigor

http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-02/genetics-1.shtml

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=All6TrOj1GSA0SKKgcR9Q9mbvZx4?p=hybrid+ vigor&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1

[bluelagoon]

When I first got into wilds,I was told to keep the ph 4.5-6.5.At that time the reasoning was that pathogens won't survive in acidic water.I could never got the wilds to warm up to me,so to speak.I mixed them with the domestics and some of the wildness did settle down.I sold my wilds about two years ago because I do like the colors of the domestics.I have noticed that my domestics seem to like low PH as well.And they also appear healthier(or more of a glow to their eyes),so to speak.

[pitdogg2]

The solution to climate change is simple. Reduce the worlds population by 50%. This can be done in as little as two generations by placing regulations on those allowed to pro-create.

yea like that worked very well for CHINA....


Sorry couldn't resist:p

[pitdogg2]

When I first got into wilds,I was told to keep the ph 4.5-6.5.At that time the reasoning was that pathogens won't survive in acidic water.I could never got the wilds to warm up to me,so to speak.I mixed them with the domestics and some of the wildness did settle down.I sold my wilds about two years ago because I do like the colors of the domestics.I have noticed that my domestics seem to like low PH as well.And they also appear healthier(or more of a glow to their eyes),so to speak.

When I got into Discus 20yrs ago I also noticed the same. I kept them in pure RO water changed daily and kept the pH at 4.5-5.0 and they went nuts. Started laying eggs on everything were much more active with out the darting into the sides of the tank every time someone walked into the fish room. I do not advocate this now as they have come a long way since then. Unless you are keeping wilds then you may need to until you get them stabilized.

[nc0gnet0]

"Hybrid Vigor" which promotes stronger characteristics through line breeding and this too might also be referred to as a type of "in breeding".

Hybrid vigor would apply to cross breeding not line breeding. Line breeding is a form of inbreeding.

[oliverk]

Sorry about the math error. Still 36,500 is a lot of water, less shocking but, "The average American family of four uses 400 gallons of water per day. On average, approximately 70 percent of that water is used indoors, with the bathroom being the largest consumer (a toilet alone can use 27 percent!)." this according to the EPA at http://www.epa.gov/WaterSense/pubs/indoor.html - so a 100 gal discus tank is roughly equivalent to a person? Will that be tolerated in a clean water stressed world?

Yes, some of the most intricate water filtration systems are owned by koi keepers, am new to discus but kept koi for 15-20 years. Most koi keepers I know tend to rely upon the filtration system and top off with clean water when needed. Discus folks, no offense, seem to change water as if there was no or only a little filtration.

I am a little heretical, in addition to using my aquarium waste water on plants in the greenhouse or yard I have a small aquaponics system set up and am growing plants inside my filter for the aquarium. Currently, water spinach, watercress, water chestnuts, arrow head - all edible, plus a few ornamentals. I also have a system that the RO(RODI) and aquarium waste waters my tomatoes, some cabbage, peppers and some ornamentals. Even so I add water when needed and change water only when my ammonia gets too high. Am hopefully going to add more aquaponic growing areas (plants actually in the filter system) soon and that will further reduce needs for water changes.

Have noted that nitrates and Nitrites never move off of 0 and when ammonia gets to 0.25 I do a small water change. My small discus fish have grown quickly/normally and have laid eggs twice at very very young ages. Still my experience is so short it is nothing but very early, but encouraging ad hoc result.

I resurrected the thread asking about PH and PH tolerance in discus and how when that occurred, the thread had lots of mention about wild ve captives, breeding for color, patterns, fin size and ..... I know beef cattle, pigs and other consumables have had programs of breeding for desired levels of fat, speed of growth and etc. Dog breeders have done much to improve their breeds health selecting against displaysia, heart issues, vision issues etc in just a few generations.

Having gotten some mixed opinions on if PH tolerance was intentionally or unintentionally selected for in captivity and if there is any difference at all, it seemed to me that some consideration on what can be done to make discus less difficult and or keeping practices, and the amount of water changes required might be something that discus breeders ought to be selecting for in these times.

Maybe something can be done maybe not, but probably it can is my guess. That said perhaps having discus as a crowning achievement of freshwater aquarium keeping skill and dedication is what the discus community wants. If so, I hope that water usage concerns in the world at large do not make discus very difficult to keep (eg I hope we in the world at large solve the clean water problem enough so that discus may be kept and enjoyed).

[nc0gnet0]

In essence, what your saying is you don't plan on doing large water changes is this correct? Can you share with us exactly how much you do change, how often, and show us pictures of your fish now, and update periodically?

My guess is that you will get less than favorable results.........

[DISCUS STU]

Having gotten some mixed opinions on if PH tolerance was intentionally or unintentionally selected for in captivity and if there is any difference at all, it seemed to me that some consideration on what can be done to make discus less difficult and or keeping practices, and the amount of water changes required might be something that discus breeders ought to be selecting for in these times.

From everything I've seen and read over the last 20 years, Discus weren't bred to be more tolerant of ph issues but for the most part for better coloration with the initial strains being Red Turquoise and Mack's Powder Blue and a few others. For their time these were the revolutionary breakthroughs. It took a long time for the notion to be dispelled, probably based on wild Discus, that raising Discus was dependent on having soft, acidic water similar to the Amazon. People also used to believe that Discus could only be fed live foods. Again older thinking.

A few generations down the line it's understood that what Discus need above all else is clean water with a low bacterial load, minimal nitrates/nitrates etc. Discus as a species are still less tolerant of these conditions than most other fish. Even with the hardier strains that have been bred more recently the best way to achieve more ideal water conditions is through regular and frequent water changes. Even with all the new technology available today, there's still no good substitute for changing out water on a regular basis.

[pitdogg2]

Bingo above ^^^^^^

Do 50% water changes once a month and see how well they do. Been there done that bad mojo happens 95.9999% of the time.

[oliverk]

In essence, what your saying is you don't plan on doing large water changes is this correct? Can you share with us exactly how much you do change, how often, and show us pictures of your fish now, and update periodically?

My guess is that you will get less than favorable results.........

Ok my first hand experience with discus starts with 10 good quality discus bought from a reputable sponsor of this forum..... So is limited very limited. My physical condition makes extensive and frequent water changes tough, although I do have systems set up to extract water to the garden (open a valve) and add RO water to it it auto top off that I manually turn on (the cheap float valve doesn't give me a good full hard stop of water flow).

As to how they are doing so far you judge but I am generally happy - they were bought as grow outs at 2.5" - 3". The smallest of mine now is the size of my hand when fins extended (am 5'9" - not a giant) and the largest 4 have a body size of my hand so with the fins are larger. They are developing mature color, although some don't look a lot like their corresponding size pictures though most have some relation to those pictures esp the red pigeon bloods. I have two sets discus eggs laid that have been consumed, as well as a large number of juvenile cory catfish (panda or bandit) that spawned numerous times in the tank before the discus were introduced (there are a few cardinal tetras in the tank as well) It is a planted tank (amazon swords and a moss type plant I don't know the name of) and has driftwood simulating roots. The smallest discus have been catching up in size recently to the largest, who have slowed down their rate of growth (expected a 2.5" fish is expected to double or more and a 4" less growth is expected and so the percent change is less).... but continue to change color to mature. It is 100gal tank. (Note I set up the tank in late august and cycled it with the pandas and tetras and introduced the plants - wanted to be all set before introducing the discus). I feed twice a day a rotating variety of foods and the food is always gone within two or three mins.

I add water when needed and guess that I am replacing lost water at the rate of about 5-10 gallons per week. This is expected to increase as the weather gets warmer and as more plants go in the system (more surface area to lose water and plant respiration). I test water a couple three times per week and change about 10-15 gallons of water when the ammonia reads .25ppm on my api test kit. I have never seen the nitrates or nitrites go above 0. I wind up doing the 10-15 gallon change once or twice a week To do this I open a valve on the overflow line which directs some water to the garden and of course the new water in line. Both do about 4 gph and I run it for about 2 - 4 hours).


My filter is comprised of 3 parts, an ordinary sump with bioballs etc in it rated to keep a 150gal tank happy. It is sitting in a 65 gallon tub that is filled with vermiculite and perlite and planted currently with lemon grass, arrow head and water chestnuts - all growing happily. There is a small reserved area and water is pumped from this reserve area into the beginning of the sump and new RO water is added to that area. The sump is set so that it overflows into the main tub with the water chestnuts and water is returned to the aquarium from the overflowing end of the sump after normal sump filtration. From the overflow of the aquarium there is a split, a large portion of the overflow water is directed to the bottom of the 65 gallon tank under the sump and vermiculite pearlite mixture. Between 10-20 percent of the overflow water is directed to a large tray filled also with vermiculite and pearlite and it is planted with water cress, arrow head, water spinach an a couple of other things. There is a siphon and drip system allowing the water from the tray to return to the beginning area of the 65 gallon tub holding the sump. I plan on adding another growing tray sometime in the near future.

You didn't ask for a filter description but thought you might want it.

The 10 as they arrived.

85983

Quick and dirty today.

85985

Tried to delete the two pigeon blood pic but it didn't sorry. Also sorry for the poor image quality!

[oliverk]

Hey no comments, even "interesting - you seem to be having luck" or "still too short a time to tell but ....." or.....

An update, I have been examining the seachem (but I understand that others make competing products) ammonia test called ammonia alert which hangs in the tank. It is supposed to only test for toxic ammonia see the article at http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/ammonia.shtml where a distinction is made. Seems that a little bit of ph will help make some ammonia non toxic. Well anyway installed one and my water is measuring very very clear of toxic ammonia. Know the test is working because I waived it over a bottle of Windex and it went very fast to toxic levels, upon return to the tank it has gone back to very clear..... YEA! Am thinking of investing in a better ammonia test regime that will test for just the toxic ammonia, and am thinking that maybe low levels of total ammonia like .25 and clear of toxic ammonia as long as PH is in the range where non toxic ammonia could be present would be acceptable..... This means I may be changing what parameters indicate to me that I should be making a water change.

Eg Nitrates 0 Nitrites 0, Toxic Ammonia 0, Total ammonia <= .25 Ph >7 why change any water? Sure heresy but I am adding water and I do have all those plants, planning to add more that love to eat nitrites nitrates and ammonia they feed on it, happily so and I am adding fresh clean water.

[DISCUS STU]

Hey no comments, even "interesting - you seem to be having luck" or "still too short a time to tell but ....." or.....

An update, I have been examining the seachem (but I understand that others make competing products) ammonia test called ammonia alert which hangs in the tank. It is supposed to only test for toxic ammonia see the article at http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/biology/nitrogen_cycle/ammonia.shtml where a distinction is made. Seems that a little bit of ph will help make some ammonia non toxic. Well anyway installed one and my water is measuring very very clear of toxic ammonia. Know the test is working because I waived it over a bottle of Windex and it went very fast to toxic levels, upon return to the tank it has gone back to very clear..... YEA! Am thinking of investing in a better ammonia test regime that will test for just the toxic ammonia, and am thinking that maybe low levels of total ammonia like .25 and clear of toxic ammonia as long as PH is in the range where non toxic ammonia could be present would be acceptable..... This means I may be changing what parameters indicate to me that I should be making a water change.

Eg Nitrates 0 Nitrites 0, Toxic Ammonia 0, Total ammonia <= .25 Ph >7 why change any water? Sure heresy but I am adding water and I do have all those plants, planning to add more that love to eat nitrites nitrates and ammonia they feed on it, happily so and I am adding fresh clean water.

In regard to ammonia and ph. If present, I believe it becomes non toxic below a ph of 6.0, or so "Doc Wellfish" of the test kit used to advise. (lol)

[pitdogg2]

In regard to ammonia and ph. If present, I believe it becomes non toxic below a ph of 6.0, or so "Doc Wellfish" of the test kit used to advise. (lol)

True at pH below 6.0 it is ammonium a less toxic form and better utilized by plants. That being said that is still no reason to NOT change water. It will get real toxic real quick at 6.2-6.5 fish will die.

[nc0gnet0]

Hey no comments, even "interesting - you seem to be having luck" or "still too short a time to tell but ....." or.....

How long have you had them and how big are they now? And yes,, some appear to be showing signs of stunting, hard to tell from the pics..

[DISCUS STU]

True at pH below 6.0 it is ammonium a less toxic form and better utilized by plants. That being said that is still no reason to NOT change water. It will get real toxic real quick at 6.2-6.5 fish will die.

Good point. Do your water changes kids and watch your Discus grow up to be big and tall.

[oliverk]

Really, which ones appear stunted? Why would you attribute it to water quality rather than the pecking order? (Most have said in a group of 10 4-5 will grow the fastest, 2-3 will follow a little behind and a few more behind them - which is exactly what I have.) Recently the smaller ones have been catching up to the larger. Since the end of October some have more than doubled the smallest are about 175% of what they were when they arrived. Seems to me that if water quality was the issue all would be stunted.

[bluelagoon]

True at pH below 6.0 it is ammonium a less toxic form and better utilized by plants. That being said that is still no reason to NOT change water. It will get real toxic real quick at 6.2-6.5 fish will die.

Is this a true statement?I was always told and read on other forums that anything lower than ph7 would produce ammonium.I have never heard of it becoming toxic at 6.2-6.5.In that case the Amazon must be toxic with all the rotting organics.

[DISCUS STU]

Is this a true statement?I was always told and read on other forums that anything lower than ph7 would produce ammonium.I have never heard of it becoming toxic at 6.2-6.5.In that case the Amazon must be toxic with all the rotting organics.

I think there may be other factors at work here as the Amazon is a much more complex system than our aquariums. I've read that Discus come from waters that are generally from ph in the low's 6.0's and less. At those acidic values the water tends to inhibit a great deal of bacteria.

[pitdogg2]

I think there may be other factors at work here as the Amazon is a much more complex system than our aquariums. I've read that Discus come from waters that are generally from ph in the low's 6.0's and less. At those acidic values the water tends to inhibit a great deal of bacteria.

Hence the reason the fry feed off the slime secretions, very little to no aquatic or bug life can exist in those conditions. We are also talking millions/billions gallons per second going by, open systems are much more forgiving than closed which we have.

[nc0gnet0]

billions per second?

[pitdogg2]

you get my drift a LOT of water goes by in a short amount of time. While watching a documentary on the Amazon it was an ASTRONOMICAL they gave and it boggled my mind.

OK how about per minute:)

[gimaal]

<<I was always told and read on other forums that anything lower than ph7 would produce ammonium.>>

Same here. I too have read/heard for years that ph7 was the critical threshold.

[oliverk]

Here is a quick reference check googling free ammonia PH one of the top responses a synopsis of a scholarly article and includes the information on the author:

-------------------------------------------
William A. Wurts, Ph.D.

Senior State Specialist for Aquaculture

Kentucky State University CEP at the UK Research and Education Center

P.O. Box 469

Princeton, KY 42445-0469

www.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/Wurtspage.htm




Ammonia is a nitrogen waste released by aquatic animals into the production pond environment. It is a primary byproduct of protein metabolism. Ammonia is excreted directly from the fish gill into the water. Ammonia concentrations are usually at their highest late in the production season when biomass of the cultured species and the amount of protein fed are greatest. Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pond pH. Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic form at low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively. In addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises.

The measure of whether water is acidic, basic (alkaline) or neutral is known as pH. A scale of 1 to 14 is traditionally used, which represents the negative logarithm of the hydrogen ion concentration. A pH of 7.0 is neutral; above 7.0 is basic and below 7.0 is acidic; close to 7.0 is weak and far from 7.0 is strong. It is a common perception that the pH of water is neutral and constant at a value of 7.0. In an environment free of carbon dioxide, aquatic life, and compounds other than H2O; pond pH would remain 7.0 or neutral. However, this combination of conditions is unlikely to occur on our planet. The pH of water is naturally acidic because the atmosphere contains carbon dioxide (CO2). Carbon dioxide readily dissolves into water, raindrops and other sources of water exposed to air, forming a weak acid (H2CO3, carbonic acid). Therefore, events in the aquatic environment that affect CO2 concentrations also affect pH. There are minerals in soil that can dissolve in water to create acidity and alkalinity as well.

--------------------
Kinda thought the person had it reversed.

[DISCUS STU]

Here's a good one that explains the conversion and ph point.
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/CropNews/2008/0421JohnSawyer.htm

Ammonia is un-ionized, and has the formula NH3. Ammonium is ionized, and has the formula NH4+. The major factor that determines the proportion of ammonia or ammonium in water is water pH. The activity of ammonia also is influenced by temperature and ionic strength. This is important as the unionized NH3 is the form that can be toxic to aquatic organisms. The ionized NH4 is basically harmless to aquatic organisms.

The chemical equation that drives the relationship between ammonia and ammonium is:

NH3 + H2O ↔ NH4+ + OH-

When the pH is low, the reaction is driven to the right, and when the pH is high, the reaction is driven to the left. In general, at a temperature of around room temperature, at a pH less than 6.0, the proportion of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N as NH3 is very-very low and as NH4+ is very-very high. At a pH around 8.0, the proportion as NH3 is 10 percent or less, and at a pH slightly above 9.0, the proportion is about 50 percent. The activity of aqueous ammonia also is much lower at low temperatures and higher at warm temperatures. This means that at low temperatures and low pH the activity as NH3 is even lower, and as NH4+ is even higher. Therefore, sensitive aquatic organisms can tolerate a higher total “ammonium-N plus ammonia-N” at low temperatures than at high temperatures due to much less aqueous NH3 being present in the water.

The laboratory method used for analysis of water measures ammonium-N plus ammonia-N. It is very difficult to directly determine the activity of aqueous ammonia, so instead the surrogate of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N is used, and then tabled values of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N are used to determine if a measured concentration will provide ammonia at a level that is detrimental to aquatic organisms, for acute and chronic conditions. These tabled values are a surrogate since the measured concentration is a total of the ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, and the concentrations in the tables for chronic or acute levels are set to reflect back to likely concentrations of ammonia-N for specific water pH and temperature.

The acute and chronic criteria for “ammonia” have been established for Iowa streams designated for aquatic life uses (Chapter 61, Iowa Administrative Code; tables 3a, 3b and 3c). One has to carefully use the tables as the listed concentrations are for ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, not ammonia-N (the header to the tables says “ammonia”). As expected, chronic criteria (ammonium-N plus ammonia-N concentration) are higher for low pH and low temperature water (ex. pH 6.5 at 0 degrees C is 6.67 mg N/l, early life stages present) and lower for high pH and high temperature water (ex. pH 8.0 and 26 degrees C is 1.16 mg N/l). Similarly, acute criteria are higher for low pH water (ex. at a pH of 6.5 the criteria for class B (WW1-3) and B(LW) is 48.8 mg N/l) and lower for high pH water (ex. at a pH of 8.0 is 8.4 mg N/l).

The early February 2008 ambient monitoring levels from the Iowa Department of Natural Resources Storet database for the rivers identified in The Des Moines Register article ranged from 0.13 to 1.00 mg N/l (ammonium-N plus ammonia-N). At the water pH and temperature during that time (7.6 to 8.1 pH and 0 to 1.0 degrees C), the monitored values are well below both acute and chronic criteria for those conditions (acute criteria 17.0 to 6.95 mg N/l and chronic 3.98 to 2.10 mg/l). Measured ammonium-N plus ammonia-N tends to be variable during the winter months, but the variation and levels this year are not higher than recent history.

Bottom line, aqueous nitrogen is complex, as is the effect on aquatic life. For evaluation of water quality monitoring data, it is important to know what is being measured and to be careful and don’t compare apples and oranges.

[oliverk]

Ok so to bring this down to practical discus keeping, if I get this right the lower the PH the better as far as toxic ammonia goes.

So if at relatively higher PH levels in the tank, given any relatively constant temperature and a measurement of toxic ammonia of 0 one should be fairly content unless you are going to intentionally or unintentionally further raise PH in the tank?

I have read and am still confused at a constant PH if temperature drops you get more toxic ammonia or non toxic ammonia?

How fast is the rate of change - am thinking about what happens in a power outage - filtration movement goes down and temperatures usually drop (at least immediately - think about long term power outages (weeks) but then there are lots of issues), because the pumps and electricity are off and not moving and heating water.

One of my more basic questions in this thread (although am learning something - hope I remember) and elsewhere still remains - how non toxic is the non toxic form? I keep seeing qualifiers "relatively" etc. Let me ask it this way are the "ammonia" removers locking up ammonia into the ionized form or are they converting the ammonia into something else? Am going to assume that a good measurement of toxic ammonia in a safe range is just that safe for discus.

My other and original question in bringing back this thread - "When/how did captive bred discus become higher PH tolerant I think isn't going anywhere?" No one seems to know if it is just part of the natives, intentional or unintentional side affect of breeding for beauty, but it seems most active hobby or more serious folks now say discus at least captive bred unless you are breeding are far more PH tolerant than was originally thought.

[Twistofer]

Getting back to the OP...is there really a difference between wilds and domestics. I believe the answer is yes. In captivity, Man has interfered with the natural selection of the species mainly by selecting the qualities that Man has chosen to be superior. And that's OK. We are breeding an animal for our particular sense of aesthetics. The purpose for our hobby is personal enjoyment. Therefore, we have bred out the vertical bar patterns, which gave the species its ability to hide. We bred out the horizontal patterns, in many cases, which again was an adaptive mechanism for concealment. By breeding in more consistent environments and culling out those which do not meet our expectations, we also have selected those which survive in a less variable environment (i.e the seasonal changes that would have occurred in their natural environment). We may also have invariably bred out (or bred in) immune, dietary, instinctual, behavioral, etc. factors, as well. As was pointed out, the species survives in varied water conditions depending on the season of the year, but breeds in specific conditions. We capitalized on this adaptability so we can enjoy seeing this species outside of its natural environment. We also capitalize on the need for the seasonal variability to "stimulate" an otherwise natural function, reproduction through water changes and manipulation of the animal's environment. Over the long course, it is my understanding and opinion that the domestics do tolerate long term consistency of water conditions, i.e. they can be kept at a constant water conditions over multiple seasons, whereas the wilds would do better with the seasonal variation of water conditions as found in their native habitat.

[nc0gnet0]

All this nonsense about Ph.....Pfffftttttt!!

One of these days I am going to do a little experiment. It will require the purchase of a pair of Wilds. After the wild pair has spawned, I will pull the eggs and place them with a domestic foster pair. I will then raise them just like I would domestic fry. I will gradually increase the TDS just as I do domestics over the course of the first week. If these fry do as well as wild fry raised under "wild conditions" we will finally put this to rest. Acclimation has more to do with things that does genetics, selective breeding, etc etc.

With the exceptions of proliferation of a few aesthetic mutations, we have done very little to change the discus. If I had to ponder a guess the two are 99.99% identical. Domestics still need soft water to breed. domestics still prefer soft water, even though they will tolerate harder water. This is something the wilds have always been capable of, however when they have spend a good portion of their life in one set of conditions, a drastic change in these conditions can result in all sorts of issues.

So, the answer to the question is, no, not really.

-Rick

[William Palumbo]

I have raised and bred wilds many times. I treat all spawns/fry the same. Wild fry no different from domestics. Like Rick said...Bill

[Luke S.]

hello I have been in the hobby for years but just got into discus. My one tank has wild discus and domestic ones together and they are happy so what is all this about?

[DISCUS STU]

hello I have been in the hobby for years but just got into discus. My one tank has wild discus and domestic ones together and they are happy so what is all this about?

That's a good question. They are compatible and get along well.