A Warning About De-Los from National Fish Pharmaceuticals

[GeauxDiscus]

I've seen a lot of people on this forum suggest the use of De-Los de-wormer from National Fish Pharmaceuticals, and I wanted to post a cautionary review about this product. Although clearly this product has worked well for some people, it caused very serious damage to my fish, and I would advise any discus owner to use a lot of caution and close monitoring if you plan to try this product for the first time.

To provide some specifics: I have been managing an outbreak of capillaria in my 150-gallon display tank by using levamisole for a few months now; but that's all the levamisole has been doing - managing the outbreak, because levamisole can only kill the adults. After losing some ground using just the levamisole, I did a lot of research, and I decided to try De-Los to kill the larvae between levamisole treatments, hoping that I could eventually kill all of the nasty little critters once and for all, or at least reduce their numbers to the point of insignificance (because I plan to maintain a deworm routine).

After doing my last levamisole treatment, I made sure to do three 60% water changes and wait a full week before adding the De-Los. (I had read that you should not mix these two medications, but they are often used in collaboration.) Because I was adding a new medication for the first time, I made sure to monitor the fish carefully, and I had staged water ready in case I needed an emergency water change (which I did). After about an hour, I noticed that my blue diamond was starting to shed some of his slime coat. I've seen this reaction in a fish once before, so I recognized it - the slime coat starts to shed off in big strings or patches. I didn't want to overreact, so I gave it about 20 more minutes, and his reaction got worse. Also, during that time, several other fish started shedding their slime coat, and all started hanging around the top of the tank, gasping for air.

At this point, I knew it was time to abort, so I did a 60% water change (as much as my staging containers can muster). But by then, I think the damage was done, and it looks like I will lose two of my fish, although they are hanging on for life in my hospital tank right now. These two fish both started laying down on their side on the bottom, although they are not dead yet. I'll provide an update later as to whether or not they live or die. The rest of the fish are still hanging out at the top of the tank where they can get the occasional sip of air.

As soon as Petsmart opened this morning, I purchased some charcoal and added it to one of my filters to further reduce the amount of De-Los in the water. (I don't normally keep charcoal on hand.) I also plan to do another 60% water change as soon as my staging water is warm enough this afternoon.

Personally, I would strongly advise against the use of De-Los; however, I know some people have used it successfully, so at minimum, I would use extreme caution when using this medication for the first time. If I had to do it over again, I would have tested it on a couple of hero fish in my hospital tank before putting it in my display tank. Lesson learned for sure. Hopefully by sharing this experience, it will help others avoid the same mistake.

[kris2341]

I am sorry for your loss, thanks for sharing, perhaps someone can look into this in detail to see what exactly couldve happened.

[GeauxDiscus]

I am sorry for your loss, thanks for sharing, perhaps someone can look into this in detail to see what exactly couldve happened.

Thanks - that's a good point I meant to bring up: Something must be different about my water conditions than for those that had success with this product in the past. Maybe something added into the municipal water supply?? My setup is very basic: just sponge and floss filter media, and Prime used as water treatment - nothing else. I don't use any UV or ozone filtration either - just water changes.

[kris2341]

very strange, perhaps the medicine went bad and became toxic? was it expired? was the packaging damaged when you went to use it?

I will google that medication later and see what it is about, as for my own personal treatments, I tend to stick to basic USP grade meds from a pharmacy if possible.

I've been using API general cure for my usual issues but it seems like it bothers my fish more than just using flagyl and prazi separately in their own treatments so I will not be buying the stuff again.. darn shotgun meds...

[nc0gnet0]

When you say "larval form" do you in fact mean the eggs? It would certainly seem that levimsol would be 100% effective on any larva, it's the eggs that it cannot penetrate. sorry to hear your having such a trouble. Have you ever considered treating the fish and then directly after treatment moving them to a sterile tank, and then bleach the smithereens out of the infected one?

How are you confirming the capillaria?

[GeauxDiscus]

From everything I've read, the levamisole only paralyzes the adults - it has no effect on the larvae, but at any rate the eggs are still an issue. Your movement suggestion seems like something I may want to try as a last-ditch effort. I'm going to try flubendazole if I can get a hold of some, but I'll do it much more carefully this time. ;)

I confirmed the capillaria via microscope. Here are the best pics I could manage:

8428484285

[Second Hand Pat]

Guys, I am moving this to the http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?320-Medicine-Cabinet-and-Disease-info as it will serve it's purpose there and I will not need to edit the heck out of this thread.

[Carolina discus]

Hi Shane
We use Delos in the hatchery for many years and have never had any issues...we perfer it over prazi for gill flukes and it is much easier than PP unless you have a good handle on it, we often use as a precaution on fry as flukes at that age are devistating.. I suspect there is something else that reacted with it....did you call and talk with the owner? I believe her name is Pat if I am correct...they have always been great to deal with and offer a wealth of knowlede for fish keepers.
It may be worth a call to them and explain your experience....they stand behind the quality of their meds.
good luck

[nc0gnet0]

My only knowledge of De-los comes from it as a fluke treatment, as Eric has mentioned. Are you sure those are in fact capillaria? Cap is usually diagnosed by the presence of eggs in the feces, not the worm itself. This is really what you should be looking for under the scope:

http://commons.wikivet.net/images/e/e3/Capilaria.jpg

[GeauxDiscus]

As an update, I've now lost three of my 15 fish. A very depressing day.

Eric, I appreciate the suggestion, but I have no desire to talk to them right now. I'm not sure how diplomatic I could be on the phone. I do agree that something is causing a reaction, but I'm not doing anything except Prime in my water.

With regards to whether I'm certain of the capillaria diagnosis, I think the only fair answer is that I am not (since I'm not a professional). However, given the slimy clear feces I would occasionally see, and the long, hair-like structures I've observed under the microscope, some containing round structures I would consider eggs, I'm pretty confident in the diagnosis.

[nc0gnet0]

Pay more attention to these round structures you mention. You would be amazed at the harmless critters we find under the scope. What we are looking for in these "round" (actually more oval) are the tell tale ends of the eggs themselves, almost looking like caps or plugs on the opposing ends.


-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Emaciated Discus and Capillaria Worms http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/emaciated_discus.shtml

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/images/capillaria_eggs.jpg

[smsimcik]

Hi Shane, sorry to hear about your problems.

I wanted to mention that I have used De-Los several times to treat flukes. The only reaction I saw was that the discus' color would fade and they would stop eating. Once the treatment was complete and the De-Los is removed, the fish would get their color and appetites back. I never experienced any reaction like you had. And I was using it when I lived in Carrollton too. So I don't think the water there has anything to do with it.

I'll also say it never cured my fish of flukes and I stopped using it for that reason. I've also read that most flukes have become resistant to the organophosphates like De-Los ( the active ingredient Dylox use to be used in flea collars). I don't know about resistance in Capillaria. It might work on larvae but I doubt it would be effective against eggs.

[YSS]

As stated above, I suspect a bad batch caused the issue.

[Carolina discus]

Shane
I can understand your disapointment...your loss is something we all have gone through or will go through on the "discus journey" we had an accident with a malfunctioning valve that we lost over 1000 fish we were growing out...I was devistated not at the money but rather the time that it took to get to where we were going.
I would focus on if there could have been a reaction between the 2 meds you were interchanging (levamisole and delos)...I understand you were doing water changes, charcoal, etc but that could have been the issue....again from our own experience and learning curve, many years ago we used PP after formlin treatments....did the usual WC's/charcoal etc to remove anything.......did the treatment and lost the tank...after going over the process to see where my mistakes were and talking with a few people I trust I believe there could have been a residue on the glass as I didnt wipe down the tanks with each water change...may not seem like a big deal but you have to be that careful when mixing meds...
Again, we all feel your pain as we have all made mistakes with discus...if someone tells you they have never had any issues or made mistakes they are full of s**t :)...these fish can make you each more than your fair share of "humble pie"...when you settle down I would recommend calling NFP and going over your experience with them and see where something may have gone wrong...you will be a better discus keeper and enjoy them more in the long run...
best of luck!

[Carolina discus]

Oh yeah....if you can find Andrew Sohs books I would recommend you get them...there is some excellet USABLE information on diseases and treatments....again, well worth the money in the long run

[brewmaster15]

HI,
Really sorry to hear of your fish losses here Shane.

Some general info for you on capillaria. If you are battling this nematode... Levamisole should work....but a med that will is Fendendazole(Panacur). You can find it in a flake format or you can make your own food with it...Its added to the food...NEVER to the water.

Theres some miss-conceptions here on capillaria I need to clear up..

If you have capillaria worms... they infect fish by being ingested as eggs in most cases, but these eggs are shed into the water, and can take weeks to actually develop to the point that they can infect the fish, so in many cases, wiping the tanks well, lots of water changes and removing organic matter will go a long ways to preventing infection once you have dealt with the adults in the fish.

I am not sure that you are seeing Capillaria. Theres an article here..
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/nematodes.shtml

that you should read...most people do not see capillaria worms... they may see the barrel shaped eggs.

Identifying worms is actually not as easy as many might think.. Unless you have a really good understanding of parasitology, its very hard. I know my way around a microscope well and I feel confident that I may be able to identify "worms" in general, maybe, so not trying to convince you otherwise.

Really the best course of action if you are dealing with something elusive and chronic, is to get a fish to lab for a positive ID...

Hth,
al

[GeauxDiscus]

Shane
I can understand your disapointment...your loss is something we all have gone through or will go through on the "discus journey" we had an accident with a malfunctioning valve that we lost over 1000 fish we were growing out...I was devistated not at the money but rather the time that it took to get to where we were going.
I would focus on if there could have been a reaction between the 2 meds you were interchanging (levamisole and delos)...I understand you were doing water changes, charcoal, etc but that could have been the issue....again from our own experience and learning curve, many years ago we used PP after formlin treatments....did the usual WC's/charcoal etc to remove anything.......did the treatment and lost the tank...after going over the process to see where my mistakes were and talking with a few people I trust I believe there could have been a residue on the glass as I didnt wipe down the tanks with each water change...may not seem like a big deal but you have to be that careful when mixing meds...
Again, we all feel your pain as we have all made mistakes with discus...if someone tells you they have never had any issues or made mistakes they are full of s**t :)...these fish can make you each more than your fair share of "humble pie"...when you settle down I would recommend calling NFP and going over your experience with them and see where something may have gone wrong...you will be a better discus keeper and enjoy them more in the long run...
best of luck!

I really appreciate your input, Eric. The only real possibility I can think of at this point is your suggestion of a reaction between the levamisole residue and the De-Los. I'm amazed that small of an amount of left-over levamisole could have that big of a negative impact on the fish, but I can't think of anything else it would be. Again, I appreciate all the support and feedback. As an update, the bleeding seems to have stopped at three fish lost - one 6.5 inch Marlboro Red from Hans, one 6 inch Penang Eruption Leopard, and a 5.25 inch yellow.

[GeauxDiscus]

HI,
Really sorry to hear of your fish losses here Shane.

Some general info for you on capillaria. If you are battling this nematode... Levamisole should work....but a med that will is Fendendazole(Panacur). You can find it in a flake format or you can make your own food with it...Its added to the food...NEVER to the water.

Theres some miss-conceptions here on capillaria I need to clear up..

If you have capillaria worms... they infect fish by being ingested as eggs in most cases, but these eggs are shed into the water, and can take weeks to actually develop to the point that they can infect the fish, so in many cases, wiping the tanks well, lots of water changes and removing organic matter will go a long ways to preventing infection once you have dealt with the adults in the fish.

I am not sure that you are seeing Capillaria. Theres an article here..
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/internal/nematodes.shtml

that you should read...most people do not see capillaria worms... they may see the barrel shaped eggs.

Identifying worms is actually not as easy as many might think.. Unless you have a really good understanding of parasitology, its very hard. I know my way around a microscope well and I feel confident that I may be able to identify "worms" in general, maybe, so not trying to convince you otherwise.

Really the best course of action if you are dealing with something elusive and chronic, is to get a fish to lab for a positive ID...

Hth,
al

Thanks very much for the input, Al. I've actually put a decent bit of effort into finding a place where I could take a fish to have it tested around here, but I've so far been unsuccessful. I'd be willing to sacrifice my runt if it meant confirming a diagnosis, but I don't know where to take/ship it. Any suggestions on how to go about it?

[brewmaster15]

Absolutely... Florida Cooperative Extension...university of Florida...

http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/


Diagnostic lab ...
http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/diagnostic_lab.htm

hth,
al


They don't take fish from Hobbyists anymore but can guide you.

[GeauxDiscus]

Absolutely... Florida Cooperative Extension...university of Florida...

http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/


Diagnostic lab ...
http://tal.ifas.ufl.edu/diagnostic_lab.htm

hth,
al


They don't take fish from Hobbyists anymore but can guide you.

Thanks very much, Al. I'll give them a try.

[aovifo]

If it's Capillaria, which I'm not sure, the most effective treatment, against eggs too, is Flubendazole (Flubenole). It's not sold in USA but you can buy it via internet from UK. Google "Kusuri" from UK, one of their fish med products is based on Flubendazole. It's toxic and may have bad side effects on fish. But a lot of people use it with success.
Here is very serius person who says that Praziquantel is effective against Capillaria. As I know it isn't so. I would apreciate if anybody will share knowledge or experience on tha point.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/capillaria

[smsimcik]

Shane,
You may want to consider the diagnostic lab at TAMU vet school. tvmdlweb.tamu.edu. 888-646-5623, 979 845 3414. They're closer.

[GeauxDiscus]

Thanks, Steve! I'll give them a call to see if they're interested in helping.

Aovifo - My understanding is that prazi will NOT kill capillaria.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks, Steve! I'll give them a call to see if they're interested in helping.

Aovifo - My understanding is that prazi will NOT kill capillaria.

I have read that prazi may have an effect ion Capillaria... another one that is reported to be effective on capillaria is piperazine.

hth, al

[100fuegos]

Two years ago I cleared my fish from capillaria, positively identified by the eggs under a scope, using wormer plus from kusuri. So I can confirm it works.

[GeauxDiscus]

Two years ago I cleared my fish from capillaria, positively identified by the eggs under a scope, using wormer plus from kusuri. So I can confirm it works.

Good to know - thank you.