What is the ancestry of this discus

[Argentum]

I purchased the discus below at a young age from a local pet shop.
Recently, I noticed fine blue lines in the face of the largest one. Does anyone knows the possible crosses that produced this morph?

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC02616_zpsb137241b.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC02616_zpsb137241b.jpg.html)

Sorry the pic is poor quality, but they are not in the mood of posing for me, the blue lines are not showing as in nature as well, but that's the best I could get for now. If I managed to capture a better one Ill post it later

[Rudustin]

Looks to me very much like a San Merah.

[rickztahone]

Yup, it looks like a San Merah to me as well. The deep red is what caught my eye. Nice looking discus.

[Argentum]

Yup, it looks like a San Merah to me as well. The deep red is what caught my eye. Nice looking discus.


Looks to me very much like a San Merah.

But it has black stripes, it's not showing now but it has them, San Merah should not have stress bars

[Rudustin]

It may be a rose red. Here are some photos of my rose red with stripes and my San merah with no bars. Sorry not the greatest pictures. 8433284333

[Argentum]

This is a pic when it was a bit younger, full color but no blue lines:

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC02538_zps36ba06d3.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC02538_zps36ba06d3.jpg.html)

[Rudustin]

It looks like a rose red to me. You're right a San Merah has no bars.

[Argentum]

It looks like a rose red to me. You're right a San Merah has no bars.

Do you have an idea from what are they bred?

[Rudustin]

The San Merah is simply a brown discus, line bred for red coloring.

[rickztahone]

It looks like a rose red to me. You're right a San Merah has no bars.

You are correct in the traditional sense, but Kenny/Forrest has been providing San Merah's that have bars, which sparked a thread here somewhere to ask about the original San Merah. There is nothing wrong with having bars, I am simply stating that a discus being called a San Merah can indeed still have bars, and especially an eye bar.

[Rudustin]

I disagree with that statement. I feel that a San Merah should not show any bars at all. Rose Reds are a different story. We can of course agree to disagree. Rufus

[Larry Bugg]

I have to respectively disagree with this. The original San Merah was breed and named as a barless discus. While there are those today that breed what they call a San Merah with bars I think it is wrong to call it that. JMO

You beat me to it but we agree. It should be barless.

[SortSay2003]

You are correct in the traditional sense, but Kenny/Forrest has been providing San Merah's that have bars, which sparked a thread here somewhere to ask about the original San Merah. There is nothing wrong with having bars, I am simply stating that a discus being called a San Merah can indeed still have bars, and especially an eye bar.

Ricardo,

In the past 12-16mos of drooling over Kenny's monthly previews, I have not seen any San Merahs with an eye/stress bars.
As stated by Rufus and Larry, true San Merahs have No bars.

Although I have seen local sellers here in AZ sell red rose as "San Merahs" with bars, perhaps to get more bucks or because they are in higher demand.

[rickztahone]

I will have to take my statement back. I could have sworn I saw a pic of someone calling their Kenny bought red discus a San Merah, but it had bars. I may just be remembering wrong, but I looked back through a few months where Kenny did have them in and you are all right, they do not have bars. My apologies for stating an error without researching it.

[Rudustin]

I will have to take my statement back. I could have sworn I saw a pic of someone calling their Kenny bought red discus a San Merah, but it had bars. I may just be remembering wrong, but I looked back through a few months where Kenny did have them in and you are all right, they do not have bars. My apologies for stating an error without researching it.
Ricardo, an apology is not necessary. Like I said we can agree to disagree. I have three San Merahs. True ones. I also have Rose Reds. They are similar but as I understand it San Merahs are a line breeding of originally a brown discus to make it breed true to not have bars and to have a red/wine color. Rose Reds when in spawning mode will get incredibly red and the bars will lessen with the exception of the bar across the eye but when out of breeding mode they return. Best Regards. Rufus

[Argentum]

If they got Brown discus maybe that's where the blue comes from.. A blue face brown perhaps

[Rudustin]

If they got Brown discus maybe that's where the blue comes from.. A blue face brown perhaps
Possibly. My San Merahs do not have blue around the gill plates. I have seen blue faced browns and they look similar to your fish.

[DISCUS STU]

The coloring around the head and the few blue lines looks very much like a Brown Discus though what it's crossed with is hard to say. Maybe it was just bred to enhance the base color. Nice shape.

[Argentum]

Here are a couple of better pictures as promised

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC02645_zps3d9a84a8.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC02645_zps3d9a84a8.jpg.html)
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p634/argentumblade/DSC02638_zps1115fe36.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/argentumblade/media/DSC02638_zps1115fe36.jpg.html)

[Argentum]

Aren't brown discus the source of the so called "giant" gene, does this mean these discus have the jumbo potential?

[Rudustin]

To unite I noticed that one of my San Merahs does have a blue ring under its eyes. 84334

[Rod]

The San Merah is simply a brown discus, line bred for red coloring.

San merah cannot simply be a brown discus, and also be bred to not show bars. That takes mutation to occur, and change from a simple brown discus.

But that is not all that is changed with this strain, they also do not show blue pattern, except for spots in the soft part of the dorsal fin, and some minor blue pattern which may develop in older specimens around the face. But this will look nothing like a simple brown discus. Indeed the distinction is so great that breeders have no trouble telling them apart at an early age.

This is very easy to prove, cross a san merah with a normal pattern turk discus and then cross a simple brown (wild type) with a normal pattern turk, and you will see the results between the 2 groups are vastly different. The san merah cross will produce 2 distinctive types of progeny, those with a blue pattern, and those without. In the wild type cross there will be none without pattern, not a one. This occurance is well made use of in the discus breeding world, this change (mutation) has been successfully incorperated into countless strains including red melon, gold melon, red cover, rose red, albino millenium gold, etc etc. None of these were developed independently, but were produced by crossing with a patternless discus, then line breeding to "clean up" the strain.

HTH

Rod

[Rudustin]

Rod is the man. Let us all listen to him. I know he knows what is what. Thanks Rod for telling us. Rufus

[Argentum]

Thank you Rod !!