Beginner needing some expert advice [Archive]

discuspaul

01-24-2015, 12:05 AM

Hi, and welcome to the forum.
You seem to be on the right track with your initial equipment choices, so at this point our best advice to you is to do 3 simple things:

1.- Do your homework first, and lots of it. Suggest you have a good read through many or all of the Stickies in the Discus Basics for Beginners section.

2.- Be sure to get at least 6 reasonably good-sized, more mature discus from a well-recognized, reliable source for supplying high quality discus. Any one of the SD sponsors in the "sponsor' section will do that for you at reasonable cost.

3.- Pay particular attention to a routine of frequent, large water changes and tank cleansing, and keep things as simple and uncomplicated as possible at first. That means avoiding a heavily planted environment, multi-level substrates, the use of any additives or water-altering chemicals, careful choice of tank-mates if any, and no CO2 use initially, among other things.

Best of luck to you & enjoy the forum.

nevertooold

01-24-2015, 01:37 AM

Thanks for advice. The more I read, the more confused I get. Seems everyone has had a different brand of heater fail and overheat the water. I hope to avoid this by going with two smaller watt heaters instead of one larger watt. I understand the need to keep the water for Discus as clean as possible but just could never live with an empty tank. Can't be much of a life for the fish, even if they are healthy. Don't plan on anything fancy, just a thin layer of substrate and some driftwood to give the fish something to swim around and through. One concern I have is that the Eheim 2217 might not be large enough for a 90 gallon tank? Anyone have any thoughts on that. I've read a couple of places that I might need a HOB filter for extra mechanical filtration

timmy82

01-24-2015, 01:52 AM

You seem to be on the right track with filtration I try to maintain a filter that can handle around 3 times the tank volume an hour or greater, the 2217 they say is 264g/hr so should be capable just don't over stock and you should be right.

nevertooold

01-24-2015, 02:16 AM

Thanks Tim. I only plan on about 6 discus and maybe some tetras. Have ordered media for the 2217 so hope to get the tank up and running as soon as that arrives. Will get the tank cycled and add the tetras and see how that goes. Want to make sure I understand how to do everything right before I bring home Discus. I have 7 parrots that are looking at the empty tank sitting in the living room and I'm sure they are wondering what kind of bird is going to live in it. They are in for a big surprise, lol.

Second Hand Pat

01-24-2015, 09:38 AM

Welcome to Simply nevertooold and you have received some great advice from Paul and Timmy. I would suggest reading up on quarantine especially with discus. I mention this since you are considering adding tetras to the mix. You will want to consider a quarantine tank so you can keep the two groups of fish separate for a period of 4 to 6 weeks.

To help get you started with the basics the following link will help introduce you to the basics of discus keeping and is a nice guide written by Paul (discuspaul).

Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus)

There are many threads at the top of the Discus Basics for Beginners section as stickies Discus Basics for Beginners (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?48-Discus-Basics-for-Beginners) and can be read at any time.

Pat

nevertooold

01-25-2015, 01:48 AM

Thanks for the information Pat. I just started reading Beginners Guide to Getting Started with Discus and it's great. Hopefully I will be able to do this. The Discus are so beautiful I can hardly wait to have them in my tank, but I want to make sure I do it right. First step is getting my tank up and running and we'll see how that goes. I have been doing lots of reading on-line but a lot of the advice is conflicting so I'm slowly sorting through things. I really appreciate the people that have already responded to my posting, it's very encouraging. Thanks

we4wieners

01-25-2015, 10:13 AM

Ive been keeping fish for 20 years. Just recently, over the last year, been keeping discus. This forum, and its members, will continually teach you new things. Discus are very different from your standard hobby regiments. Be prepared to change a lot of your thinking. Take the advice from members, though not always cordial advice, its the right advice. I am constantly being told to change things up from my old habits, so to speak. Its not criticism it's good advice.

Second Hand Pat

01-25-2015, 10:20 AM

Be sure to ask questions along the way and enjoy the journey :D

rickztahone

01-25-2015, 12:24 PM

Welcome nevertooold. You have been given great advice so far. If you have any additional questions, please let us know.

nevertooold

01-25-2015, 09:10 PM

discuspaul

01-25-2015, 10:01 PM

Everyone has been great so far. It's been over 30 years since I had an aquarium so any old habits I had are long forgotten. A blessing of old age (or curse depending on what you have forgotten) Back then I bought a tank, threw a bunch of fish in and by some miracle all seemed to go well. I had that tank for a long time, but when I got married and moved the tank stayed behind. I keep thinking of lots of questions, such as is sand or gravel the best substrate, I was going to put some tetras in the tank, cause I read somewhere that was good for the Discus, is that true?, what kind of bottom fish work best with Discus if I decide to put a couple in? Is the 3D backing I see advertised any good in a discus tank? Can I collect driftwood along the river and use that in my tank, and how should I clean it first. I have been doing a lot of reading on-line but it all kind of runs together after a while because there are so many different opinions. I joined Simply Discus because a bunch of people cared enough about their fish to get organized and help each other and that sounded right to me. Thanks again everyone, I may be a bit of a pest for awhile. :)

- Substrate: Sand is better than gravel - easier to keep clean, and wastes don't collect between the cracks to decompose and produce toxicity.
- Tetras as tank-mates: Some are good - some not so good. Suggest you stick with Cardinals, Rummy-Noses, Lemon tetras. Avoid Neons - they're small and don't handle the higher discus temps well - also avoid Serpais - can be nippers.
- Bottom-dwellers: Cories are great, as are Bristle-Nose Plecos.
- Driftwood: Play it safe - buy aquarium-ready driftwood. Collected DW, even if boiled, may still harbor surprises of one kind or another.
- 3-D Backing: Remember what I said in my first post about keeping things as simple as possible, at least at first. 3-D backing can partially come away from your back glass, and result in all kinds of undesirable matter getting in behind it - to potentially cause problems.
Best of luck to you.

nevertooold

01-25-2015, 11:20 PM

Thanks. I thought that 3-D backing might be a problem, but figured I'd ask. I'll find something to go on the outside of the tank.

nevertooold

01-27-2015, 08:50 PM

Okay, now I have another question. What is the best method of testing the PH in your aquarium? I have a kit that uses a test tube and drops. I tested my tap water and it appeared to be 7, then I left a large glass of water out for a day and tested again, now it looks like 8. Should I be waiting till the aquarium is up and running for a bit before I test? Received all my filter media today, so hopefully in the next few days I can get everything cleaned up and set up. The Eheim 2217 that came with my aquarium had some mechanical media in it which turned out to be the actual Eheim mech media. Can this used product be cleaned up and reused or should I just throw it out and use the new stuff I purchased. I would hate to throw good stuff away. With all the reading I'm doing, I must say I beginning to be a little worried about my ability to do a good job with Discus. Did anyone else feel that way at first?

discuspaul

01-27-2015, 10:14 PM

Ok, you tested your water out of the tap and the pH was 7.0 - so far so good.
You might fill a bucket (rather than a small glass) with water, leave it sit overnite, and test it the next day to see how much it has changed, up or down, and let us know.
Meantime, why don't you just get your tank set up, filled with water, with filter & heater going, and start your cycle.
Then test your tank water's pH as this is going on. Be sure to follow the test directions carefully and shake the bottle well before the test.
Re: your Eheim filter - what material exactly are you talking about ? Whatever material came with the filter should be good to start out with, If it's sponges or ceramics - they simply need to be rinsed in tank water occasionally as they dirty.
Shouldn't be any need to throw anything out.

Don't unduly concern yourself - you can do this - if need be, re-read the Beginner's Guide to refresh your memory on any thing that bothers you.
Get a start, and throw out your questions as you proceed with preparing your discus tank. We'll help you out.

nevertooold

01-27-2015, 10:30 PM

Thanks once again! Will try to get the tank going and then see if ph will stabilize. I work full time and there never seems to be enough hours in the day to get things done. My concern was with the ceramic media in the 2217. As this was a used canister I was concerned about the possibility of transferring something bad into my tank. The previous owner stated he had no health issues with his fish, but they were all gone so you never really know for sure. He had a community tank, not Discus.

DISCUS STU

01-28-2015, 03:54 PM

All seems to be in order and good advice given. "Don't overstock", "Do regular water changes", etc.

My question. What kind of substrate are you planning on keeping and what's a substrate heater? New to me.

nevertooold

01-28-2015, 10:29 PM

Not sure about substrate as yet. Sand has been recommended, but I am leaning towards pea sized river rock, just a very thin layer that will be easy to clean with my Aqueon water changer. I'd probably end up sucking all the sand up if I used sand. As far as the substrate heater goes, I found it on Amazon. It is an electrical heating cable that goes under the substrate. It is suppose to create a bit of a rising current which helps to aerate the substrate thereby helping to prevent anaerobic bacteria from growing. Who knows if it actually works, but it sounded good, lol. I just can't imagine myself keeping fish in a sterile looking empty tank, it would seem a very poor quality of life for the fish even if they lived longer and grew bigger. Yes I'm one of those people that try to make the life of all creatures in my care the very best it can be. I have 7 rescue parrots that others walked away from when they started biting and yelling and behaving like adult parrots. They don't stay cute babies forever! My husband and I farmed in Alberta for many years, raising pure bred beef cattle and dairy goats. I've cared for just about everything over the years and now that I'm getting older thought I'd give Discus a try. At least they probably won't bite me when I feed them. I guess my biggest fear is that I will purchase a group of Discus and make some stupid mistake and end up killing them all. That would be a very bad feeling!!

discuspaul

01-29-2015, 12:42 AM

Just a further small note of caution: Even a small layer of pea-sized river rock will still allow & harbor some wastes from fish, or food, or decomposing plant matter, etc., which even good vacuuming will not entirely remove, and which can produce undesirable bacteria development.
Quartz-based silica pool filter sand on the other hand, will fully hold all wastes on it's surface for easy, complete clean-up, and will NOT get siphoned up by vacuuming if the sand is no finer than # 20 or #30 grade. I've used it for years and can attest to this.

nevertooold

01-29-2015, 01:21 AM

a.person61

01-29-2015, 04:53 AM

I'm no expert in discus but highly recommend a U.V filter to help avoid Algy. My one cost around 300 bucks no Algy so far!

DISCUS STU

01-29-2015, 12:33 PM

If you can't abide the thought of a bare bottom (bb) tank then I'd go with sand. Fine silica is often used but I use good 'ol Hudson River sand. River or lake sand is also good. Most gunk stays on the surface. I use a regular Python siphon. I lose very little sand in the process, this is for my planted tank.

My others tanks are bb tanks. The fish do best with this. I have to adjust my expectations to accommodate the Discus as they are not capable of adjusting to mine. Gravel, pebbles, etc. will trap waste and debris and bacteria (the enemy). This under substrate heater doesn't sound necessary and isn't something that I think most of us are familiar with. Better to keep it simple, especially in the beginning.

discuspaul

01-29-2015, 01:17 PM

Thanks Paul, that sounds good. How do you use the vacuum? Do you actually stick it into the sand, or just sort of pass it over the surface? I had read one article on line that said they put a nylon stocking over the siphon, another said they kind of agitated the surface, but that it clouded the water for awhile, sounded awful, that's why I was thinking of a thin layer of river rock. It sounded from reading that the vacuum would work better in that. If there is a way to clean the sand, with the siphon, that sounds like the way I will go. Where would I find that kind of sand? Of all the different animals I have kept in my lifetime, who would have thought a little fish would be the most challenging. Ah well, I'll get there!

Just slowly move any store-bought vacuum tool (with a wide spout) about 1" above the sand surface. Some sand will get picked up, but will move up into the vacuum tube no more than an inch or two, and then fall right back down.
Get your pool filter sand only from a pool or spa supply store, which will very likely carry only quality product of uniform grain size/grade.

aalbina

01-29-2015, 02:08 PM

...My concern was with the ceramic media in the 2217. As this was a used canister I was concerned about the possibility of transferring something bad into my tank. The previous owner stated he had no health issues with his fish, but they were all gone so you never really know for sure. He had a community tank, not Discus.

OK - I didn't see anyone jump on this so here goes... A used filter is just fine to use, you definitely need to clean it very well with bleach and let it dry. If it were me - I would throw away the used media and start with new media. Either way - I would thoroughly clean the filter with bleach. Just because the previous owner didn't have any illness doesn't mean you won't. Think of the Inca's dyeing off due to diseases brought by the Spanish for which their immune systems were ill equipped. I wouldn't take any chances - there is some research here and in other places that suggests that some nasties eggs can survive drying out and can hatch out when exposed to water and a host.

Best of luck and enjoy the hobby - I'm sure you will do just fine!

Adam

nevertooold

01-29-2015, 07:47 PM

a.person61

01-29-2015, 08:43 PM

What do you mean by anything else other then the discus. Driftwood great some rocks great tetras great german rams awasome maybe sterbai corrie.
if you won't to recreate a natural habitat like thing theres websites videos etc on the Internet to teach you how.
For the greatest of the discus cycle your tank with tetras, rummy nose are awesome. Then have a bare bottom intill your use to discus after that add in plants wood whatever to your desires. Again I NO EXPERT in DISCUS but that's what I would do in your shoes. 1 last thing a U.V filter will do great to kill Algy place in tank and run befor you get Algy super easy to do maintane.

discuspaul

01-30-2015, 12:14 AM

Thanks everyone for all the info. Stu, with regards to bb tanks, do you have anything in your tank besides the discus? I guess what I struggle with is how to make life worth living for these fish. In reality they belong swimming along a river bank, not in a lifeless cube of water in our homes. I understand what you are saying is, that is the best way we can keep them healthy as we cannot hope to duplicate river bank conditions, correct? I want you to realize that I am not wanting to put 'stuff' in my tank to make it look attractive to me, I am wanting to create an environment that will give quality of life to the discus, as well as pleasure to me looking at them. If the only way to keep them alive and healthy is in an empty tank, perhaps I am not suited to doing that. Does anyone here keep their Discus in an interesting(for the fish) tank. Perhaps the advice I am getting is because I am new to this and as Paul said 'keep it simple'. Would there be hope to provide this type of fish with a more varied environment once I gain experience? I see pictures on-line of planted tanks, with gravel substrate and driftwood and Discus in those beautiful tanks. Is that attainable, or do those fish end up dying off in short order?

When I say 'keep it simple' - I do intend that as appropriate advice for a novice to discus, particularly if you're starting out with smaller fish than near adult or adult discus.
This advice is given to allow anyone new to discus to gain some experience keeping them, to become familiar with their traits & behaviors in an easier maintenance environment, and thus to gain some confidence with keeping them successfully.
So yes again, you're right, once some experience is gained - I suggest at least 6 months - up to a year - then you can move into less simple tank set-ups. No doubt you understand the rationale behind this.

These are a few pics of a set-up I had going for a period of time a while ago, with 3"-4" inch juvie fish in a planted environment. They all did very well, and I ended up selling them or giving them to my daughter. But the point is that I wouldn't suggest a newcomer to discus do this, lest he or she risk ending up with some stunted fish, or some fatalities, as what happened to me when I first started out with discus years ago, and tried this very type of set-up - i.e. young fish in a planted tank.
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/redrubys

nevertooold

01-30-2015, 12:18 AM

discuspaul

01-30-2015, 12:36 AM

I have just read a posting here on the forums position on planted tanks and I thought it was great! Just FYI a lushly planted tank was never what I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of a substrate (will now be sand) with a few scattered rocks and some driftwood lying on the bottom and branches coming down from the top. Does that sound reasonable, or is it still possibly too much for a newby? If I left out the sand, how many rocks could there be without them causing a cleaning problem, does bacteria not grow on the driftwood? Do you clean it with the vacuum, or does good bacteria grow on it?

That would be fine, subject to your getting reasonably good-sized discus to begin with - suggest 4" or larger - and maintaining a strict routine of frequent large water changes and good tank cleansing. No particular rule on the number of rocks - just not too many and spaced far enough apart in such a way that can easily get around them to do a proper waste vacuuming job, whether you also have sand substrate or not.
Yes, the driftwood will likely maintain some beneficial bacteria, but the essential bulk of a bb colony will be in the filter media. I've never had to vacuum driftwood - nothing sticks to it except algae - lol.

nevertooold

01-30-2015, 01:24 AM

Thanks Paul. I'm starting to get a pretty good idea of what I'm needing to do to get things going. Will find some of the sand you mentioned and have a look at that before I decide. One step at a time I guess:)

ericNH

01-30-2015, 09:22 AM

With all the reading I'm doing, I must say I beginning to be a little worried about my ability to do a good job with Discus. Did anyone else feel that way at first?

Don't be discouraged! Just staying on top of your water changes will get you very far. Set up a water-change system that makes it easy, and you'll be well on your way to keeping beautiful discus! :)

DISCUS STU

01-30-2015, 11:45 AM

One of the things I do even in my bb tanks is to have some ceramic planters with either Radican, preferred, or some other type of Sword plant. They are planted in sand. This avoids the completely sterile look of a completely bb tank. See attached. This give the tank a warmer look and also helps with water quality as the plants consume harmful waste products and help to balance a tank.

This particular setup has two planters in this 60 gallon tank. 84537

I think it's important to not project human feelings, anthropomorphize, on to fish and other animals. It's a natural tendency and one that arises from empathy and the desire to properly take of an animal in our charge, but I think it needs to be understood that these are animals and have their own distinct needs.

I was speaking to an ichthyologist who was keeping a large Discus setup at the Atlanta aquarium. His main concern was to keep as stress free an environment as possible for Discus and all his fish. "Stress free" to my understanding relates to a healthy environment free of toxins and pathogens, well balanced in regard aggression between the inhabitants, and other physical / psychological that can either help or hurt the animals under our care. While it seems like a great idea to setup a nice planted tank that isn't bb it could end up being one of the worst things for the health of the fish if not done properly. It's a lot more complicated than just having some plants in a tank. It usually doesn't work out well for growing fish.

I think one of the things I can provide is a healthy environment where my fish don't have to worry about becoming another fish's diner. Think I just anthropomorphizied (lol).

Good luck with your fish and setup. Enjoy! In the end it's supposed to be about having fun and enjoying this hobby.

nevertooold

01-30-2015, 11:14 PM

Thanks Stu, I realize I do over empathize with anything in my care. As a species I feel we do less than a stellar job of looking after the other inhabitants of this planet. I guess I keep trying in a small way to make up for that. I do want to keep my fish in a healthy, stress free environment and will do my best to make that happen. I have another question for anyone on the forum. In reading, several sites have suggested that the Eheim 2217 canister filter that I have for my 90 gallon tank might not be enough, and have suggested the addition of a HOB filter. I did ask that question here and was told it was probably okay as long as I didn't overpopulate my tank. As I am new to all this, and my tank vacuuming might not be as thorough as someone more experienced would do, would it protect my fish more if I did add a HOB filter or another canister filter? I am trying to pick up a good portion of my equipment as used, and if the addition of another filter would be a good idea I will start watching craigslist. I have to watch the cash flow or I won't have any money to buy the Discus. I'll have a big old tank, with great water quality and no fish! lol Thanks to everyone for putting up with me. Think I am driving my poor husband crazy :(

DISCUS STU

01-31-2015, 11:05 AM

I've supplemented my Eheim 2217 in my 90 gal. setup by using a large Aquaclear (110?) they've renamed them recently. I'd add two airstones with separate air pumps for a 90 also. Don't count on the HOB alone to provide aeration, they seize up, especially when power is interrupted and if you're not home for a few days this can result in oxygen deprivation. This I know from experience. I should qualify this by saying my experience is with Aquaclears but I'd still take the insurance by adding air stones.

My setup has an Eheim 2217 as the prefilter to a 2215 which contains Eheim biomedia. The HOB isn't used anymore. I also use a separate UV sterilzer coming off as the last stage. This being a little pricey in regard to your situation, if you can find a good used 2215 I'd run it in conjunction with the 2217. The 2217 would contain the ceremic noodles, pads, and filter floss and would flow into the 2215 setup as indicated above.

When cleaning, ALWAYS make sure the 2215 is running before turning the 2217 back on or the pressure from the 2217 will pop the clips for the 2215 resulting in a pressurized flood, this is a must.

As indicated by everyone successfully keeping Discus; mucho water changes. This forum has great advice for all levels; beginner and more experienced.

nevertooold

02-01-2015, 10:55 PM

DISCUS STU

02-02-2015, 12:40 PM

Stu, you mentioned using river sand in your aquariums. Are you not concerned about pollutants or heavy metals that may have precipitated out into the sand from the river. I live near the Fraser River and there is lots of sand there, but I would be very cautious about using it. I have be told not to use collected driftwood, but I am sure the sand would hold the same contaminants as the wood. Do you process the sand in some manner to make it useable?

It's a point well taken and was originally a concern of mine. The guy that originally turned me on to this was using sand from the Passaic River in a 150 gal. tank planted full of wild discus that included branches he found from the river. The water was a brownish color from the branches. He was also a great commercial breeder. The Passaic River had been well known for pollutants decades before. His advice to me was to wash the sand in hot water and I have the many years I've been keeping Discus in Hudson River sand which is far down stream from any source of what had been pollutants decades ago. To date I haven't seen any issues with this.

These are and should be concerns. The dechlorination agents are also supposed to act on various heavy metals. That having been said, things are rarely 100% perfect. Does the sand form a public beach also present a health hazard to swimmers and sunbathers? If river sand seems like an issue you may want to try lake sand which may present less of an issue. Others recommend fine grade silica industrial sand which is much finer than natural sand, wouldn't permit much of anything harmful in regard to waste and bacteria to penetrate below it's surface, and is commercially available from places like pool companies. This may be a better way to go if someone has concerns about contaminants. Gravel still isn't a good option.

nevertooold

02-02-2015, 02:05 PM

I was really just wondering how you prepared you sand. I'm old and cheap. If I can use sand from the river that will leave me more money to spend on Discus. There is no way to remove every risk factor but if I can tap into the wealth of experience on this forum, I'll be way ahead. Think I'll be taking a walk along the river with a big pail!

nevertooold

02-02-2015, 08:40 PM

strawberryblonde

02-02-2015, 11:50 PM

Hiyas Never,

Gosh I haven't posted on Simply for ages and ages, but your post caught my eye because I was in your position just a few years ago (feels like forever ago to me now).

I started out with the idea that my discus just had to have some substrate and driftwood, with a few low light plants in order for them to be happy. I blew off the idea of a barebottom tank because, to me, it was too barren and had no fun places for the fish to hang out.

Annnnd, I managed to keep up with massive daily water changes (accompanied by plenty of muttering and a few screeches when things went pear shaped and water and/or gravel ended up going everywhere BUT in the tank. For the first 3 months I slowly removed all the "problem" plants, the "problem" driftwood and finally the "problem" substrate. I went to sand and one big piece driftwood stump. I was sure this would solve the issue of constant vacuuming and always finding more bits of crud floating around the bottom.

Sadly, I had to keep cleaning, and keep cleaning and my piggie little discus just kept making a big mess.

So I painted the bottom and back of my larger tank and moved them into it with just two potted plants. And oh my gosh, what a difference! I still had to change a lot of water, but no longer had to spend a solid twenty minutes vacuuming and siphoning out crud! I was much happier and more relaxed and my discus didn't notice the lack of decor one bit.

And that's when I realized that the discus I purchased (domestically bred and raised in bare bottom tanks) had never been in a river and wouldn't have a clue what a natural environment was if it jumped out and hollered at them.

I was probably stressing them out more by adding all that extra stuff to the tank. LOL

So nowadays I always recommend making things as simple and clean as possible when you're raising young discus and/or are new to the hobby. Discus are still growing for about the first 18 months of life and since they grow quite large, they need all the advantages (super clean tank, lots of fresh water and many small feeidngs of high protein foods) you can give them.

Once they reach 18 months of age, then you can scale back a little bit on the water changes, change up the tank and add substrate plus some nice plants and driftwood and they'll be just fine.

Someone else mentioned using potted plants and I love them too! I make "squishy" pots by filling a doubled piece of nylon pantyhose with sand, adding the plant and then using a rubberband to lightly close the top of the nylon baggy around the base of the plant (above the root system). The squishy pots are easy to move around as you clean and easy to remove and "repot" as the plant grows. I love all types of sword plants and even had success with some crypts.

You can paint the bottom of the tank with plain old white paint (on the outside of course) or get fancy and use one of the sanded spray paints in order to create a sand affect.

Hope some of this helps.
Toni

DISCUS STU

02-03-2015, 12:25 PM

I am also wondering about UV sterilizers. A couple of members have mentioned them, so I have done a little looking. There seem to be a number of types, in line, in tank etc. Is there one kind, or one brand that is best. What exactly is the benefit of using this, and does the benefit outweigh the cost? Would appreciate input from anyone with an opinion, positive or negative.

I use a TurboTwist 3x but there are others. This one is pretty economical. I'd do a search on this forum for "UV sterilizer" or maybe just, "sterilizer".

Fortunately, after the initial cost of the unit the bulbs are much less expensive than they use to be and can be sourced from a number of different bulb specialty sites.

nevertooold

02-03-2015, 02:14 PM

Everyone has been great, giving freely of their time and advice. I guess before I put a single Discus in my tank I need to know that I will be able to commit the time needed to care for them properly. So with that in mind, lets assume I have my tank all set up (90 gallons) sand substrate, large piece of driftwood and a couple of rocks. An Eheim 2217 canister filter and an Aqua Clear 110 HOB, a Turbo Twist UV Sterilizer, air pump with air stone, no plants, 6 4" Discus and 2 bristle nose plecos . What am I missing, if anything and what would be a reasonable maintenance schedule for this tank, and time commitment to do it properly. My concern is that because of my age, the fact that I work full time at a physically demanding job (work on a broiler breeder farm/producing hatching eggs) and have 7 messy parrots already in my home I might not have the energy or time to do this. The theme I pick up in all the advice is that keeping these fish requires a large time commitment, so I am beginning to wonder if it would be best to choose a different fish for my tank. I really love the look of the Discus, but would hate to kill a bunch of fish because my vanity won't let me accept my limitations. So what do you think guys/gals? Do any of you have busy, hectic lives and still manage to do a good job with your Discus.

nevertooold

02-03-2015, 02:39 PM

Oops, forgot to mention that the tank will have 2 - 250 Watt titanium submersible heaters, gotta keep the kids warm :)

discuspaul

02-03-2015, 04:27 PM

You seem to have carefully considered doing the right things to succeed. Your tank is large, with all the right equipment, the décor is minimalist - that's great - and you certainly will be under-stocked with livestock - all good. So, bottom line is, you shouldn't have much to worry about.
Assuming you get discus of no less than 4" in size (preferably a bit larger), then you ought to be able to get by with 2 or 3 fairly large water changes per week - try for 50% each time if you can. And do a good tank cleansing & substrate vacuum each time you do a w/c.
Go with that and you should be just fine.

DISCUS STU

02-03-2015, 05:41 PM

I agree, sounds right. Understocking should work especially if you're buying slightly larger fish. A UV sterilizer also goes a long way for water quality. Keeping these fish isn't as daunting, yes I typed daunting, as it may come across but there's definitely and Do's and Don't list. Give it a shot.

For beginners the hardier strains are Pigeon Bloods and Red or Blue Turquoise. Both look great full grown while sacrificing nothing in the aesthetics dept.

nevertooold

02-04-2015, 08:36 PM

You guys are great. I was considering painting the back of my tank black, will that be a problem with Pigeon Bloods peppering?(sounds like a bad thing from reading) I know nothing about types, names often don't seem to match the pictures. Any reading suggestions so that I can learn to recognize the different Discus? Saw a picture where the fish was identified as a yellow pigeon, sure liked the look of that discus. It's hard enough deciding how to set up a tank, have no idea how I will ever choose fish, OMG!

nevertooold

02-18-2015, 09:59 PM

Now I really need help :[ Tank is all set up,90 gallons, 1" silica sand substrate, 2 pieces of driftwood, two titanium heaters 200W each, Aqua Clear 110 HOB with foam filters only, Eheim 2217 canister filter with mech and bio media and filter pads. Set up 4 days ago, temp is at 85 degrees. I tried hard to find ammonia to do a fishless cycle, no ammonia to be found. I think it is an ingredient for making crystal Meth so it's not available anymore and I checked a lot of places. In my local pet store they told me to use Stability so I bought that product. As far as I can see that will only work with fish in the tank as there would be nothing to create ammonia for the first bunch of bacteria to feed on. I think I read somewhere to add some fish flakes, so I did put a small amount of that into the tank and I mean only a pinch. Today is the second day of adding Stability, where do I go from here. Do I need to go purchase some cheap fish to put in the tank? I have already bought and paid for some Discus. I think they would like to ship them to me asap, but I need to know what I'm doing. They have offered to send me some Ultimate which they say they use for setting up new tanks and have never had a problem. Said they just put it in the tank and 15 min later added fish. It sounds from reading more like a water conditioner not really something to cycle the tank. Please help! I have no idea what I'm doing. The more I read the more confused I am getting. Noreen

Tankster

02-18-2015, 11:00 PM

This is at the Ace in Vancouver http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272325&cp=2568443.2568448.2626059.12140572.2627343

This is from the Dollar Tree http://www.dollartree.com/LA-Totally-Awesome-Pure-Ammonia/p294234/index.pro

I saw you were in BC but not exactly sure where so picked Vancouver :)

Hope this helps.

p.s. - make sure these don't have anything except Ammonia Hydroxide and water. It is usually a 10% solution.

nevertooold

02-18-2015, 11:24 PM

Thank you so much. I live in the Chilliwack area, but hopefully I can find someone going into Vancouver to pick some up. I have done on line searches, gone to local hardware stores, called a janitorial supply store, no luck. I see on Amazon.com you can get it but not on Amazon.ca, go figure! I just have to get some!! Thanks again Noreen

nevertooold

02-18-2015, 11:36 PM

Ok, just looked at both the links given, those are both stores in the U.S.A.. If there is one in Vancouver B.C. it was not on their store locator, so I'm back to square one again. Is there an Ace in Vancouver B.C.? Noreen

nevertooold

02-19-2015, 12:28 AM

I am really terrible I guess at doing searches. I kept looking and I did find an Ace in Mission B.C. It says they have the Ammonia Hydroxide, and so I will phone them tomorrow to confirm, then I'll be taking a drive I guess. Have to get this tank cycled. Thanks again. Noreen

DISCUS STU

02-19-2015, 04:17 PM

Almost any hardware store should have clear, unscented ammonia at about $3 (usd or cdn) for a half gallon.

nevertooold

02-19-2015, 04:40 PM

You use to be able to get it in the grocery stores too. Haven't been able to find anything here in Chilliwack. Canadian Tire had two jugs of Lemon scented and they were clearing that out. I have no idea, but I phoned Ace and they do have it in stock, so I'm heading over there right after work.

Mrs. J

02-19-2015, 04:48 PM

Breathe.....I too am way past the age of consent, have three rescue parrots, dogs, cats, etc and had a small farm at one point, and I still work. I am also fighting the "vanity" thing, but have found that thanks to all the wonderful and supportive folks on this forum I have been able to keep my six discus as they should be...learn something new each time I log onto the forum. I have pigeon bloods, Marlboros and blue diamonds. My background was black, but changed it to a light green, white sand substrate just enough to cover the bottom. Like you, I have cut back on the décor after learning what I needed to do to grow healthy babies. You will do well I am sure, you are never too old. Julia

nevertooold

02-19-2015, 11:19 PM

Julia, what a lovely post. Guess there are crazy ladies every where. Had to laugh about your comment on age of consent, you finally get to the point where you would say "yes" and nobody asks anymore, lol. I do tend to get pretty wound up during a learning curve, so remembering to breath is a good advice. I did manage to hunt down some ammonia and got it in the tank. Nice reading of 4ppm, so now the waiting begins, but at least I'm started on the journey now. Hope you love your parrots. Some of these rescue parrots are messed up forever, but still need a home and loving care. I have scars on my hands that show how hard it is for them to trust anyone again. I am hoping watching the discus swimming in the tank will be a wonderful experience for us all. Everyone has been great to me. Big Hug to Tankster for setting me on the path to Ace and finally finding some ammonia. Noreen

Mrs. J

02-23-2015, 08:46 PM

Noreen, yes my parrots can be a handful at times but as of now now bite marks. My Macaw would be the one....two of mine are in their twenties and I have had them for most of their lives. I find it very difficult to say "No" to most that need a home or a hand up. You will find that your Discus babies will give you much pleasure and slow you down when you need the peace. I also tend to ramp up when doing research and drive everyone crazy. Some of the best advice I got was to take a deep breath to sort through the information. I will soon be setting up 125 and am already worrying about having everything I will need! I have not set up or cycled using ammonia but am going to try it. I may need to pick everyone's brain for help and hand holding. And you are right Now they seldom ask lol.

nevertooold

02-24-2015, 11:14 PM

Julia, I have my 90 gallon running with ammonia in it at 4ppm. I used Stability for 7 days and nothing happened. A lot of people said Stability was no good, but suggested Nutrafin Cycle, so yesterday I started putting that in my tank. You are suppose to use it for three days, so I will give it a try and see what happens. It wouldn't really matter to me how long it took, except I have purchased some Discus and the supplier seems in a bit of a hurry to get them shipped to me. Probably the biggest issue with starting with Discus is the fact you have to get a minimum of 6 right off to prevent aggression, so I had to buy where I could get the best price. Guess in time I'll see if that was a mistake. Wouldn't be the first one I've made. Will let you know how my tank goes. As I already dye my hair, nobody will ever know if this whole process is making my hair grey(er)

Tankster

02-25-2015, 11:12 AM

Noreen,

If you have the ability to do 100% daily water changes you can bypass cycling your tank.

If this is an urgent situation where you need to take delivery of the discus ASAP, you can forgo the cycle as long as you do daily 100% changes. If you are set up properly, with a access to a spigot, a water aging barrel, a good water transfer pump, and easily accessible drainage, water changes are easy.You will have a cycled filter in about 45 days and can adjust your regimen based on the age of your fish.

My concern with the supplier holding the fish for you is that you have no control over how they are caring for your fish. Every day they keep them, it costs them money to feed, care for etc. If you have already paid for them, they really have no incentive to take proper care of them, other than, at the very least, trying to keep them alive.

nevertooold

02-26-2015, 02:23 AM

Wow, I never even thought of that. Just thought he was being nice offering to hold them for a bit, but really got the feeling he would like them gone asap. Don't think I could manage 100% water change every day. That's a lot of water. What do you do with the fish when you take all the water out of the tank, put them in a bucket? Wouldn't the stress of all that handling kill them anyway? I just keep hoping for a miracle and that my tank will cycle. The only other choice I would have would be to use a product like Prime and finish cycling the tank with fish in it. I sure didn't want to do that. I feel like I'm sinking in quicksand! Guess I'll just keep moving forward and deal with whatever comes down the pipe. Someday this will all be in the past or I will drop dead from all the stress, lol. Thank you for your concern, it helps :)

nevertooold

02-26-2015, 08:32 PM

Yahoo! My tank cycle has started. Ammonia has dropped from 4ppm to 2ppm, Nitrite at 0.50ppm and Nitrate at 5.0ppm. Now if it just keeps going and doesn't stall for some reason. Fingers crossed :) So now when the day comes and fish arrive on the plane and I finally have them at home. I have prepared the tank by doing a 75% water change the day before. I acclimate them by floating bags in tank for a bit, put them in tank, but not the water they were shipped in, right so far?? Should I have added a conditioner of some kind (Prime) before putting them in the tank? What should I be looking for that would indicate the fish are in trouble. What things should I have on hand in case they need help. If they had fur or feathers I would know what to do, but fish, well I've got a lot to learn. I know I've read all this stuff here and elsewhere on the internet, but it somehow seems more valid if it comes in response to a direct question. I promise when I become sage and wise in the ways of fish, I will pass it forward and spend time helping other newcomers, the way you all are helping me. I am so excited, if you were all here, I would buy you a drink. As you are not here, guess I will be forced to have a drink on my own :( Hubby doesn't drink much and probably not to celebrate a tank cycling. lol

alron2

02-26-2015, 09:20 PM

Do you think the Nutrafin Cycle did the trick?
Thanks
Ron

nevertooold

02-26-2015, 10:15 PM

ericNH

02-26-2015, 11:51 PM

Are you over-thinking this?

nevertooold

02-27-2015, 01:05 AM

Hmmm, interesting question. I'll have to think about that!

ericNH

02-27-2015, 09:22 AM

Hmmm, interesting question. I'll have to think about that!

Good one!

:laugh:

But seriously, though, clearly you're paying asttention to detail and doing all your homework - I am sure that once you have your discus they're gonna do great!

nevertooold

02-27-2015, 01:45 PM

I hope you are right. Their lives depend on what I know, that's a responsibility I take seriously! There seems to be a lot of 'grey' areas in their management. What one person swears by, another will have found completely useless. Guess I'm looking for general consensus on their care, and move forward from that point. Thank you for taking the time to comment :)

Tankster

02-27-2015, 02:56 PM

Noreen,

I was there not to long ago and speaking from recent experience, you really only have 2 things, when it is all said and done, that you need to worry about.

1) maintaining fresh clean water (pH between 6 and 8+ is fine; Tds not to be worried about)
2) food (whatever works for you, that provides a high protein diet)

Put all of the other nuances of discus keeping out of your head. Once you are able to breathe again, and realize it is not really that hard, you can start experimenting with the nuances and settle on what works for you. Your job now is to make sure they have fresh clean water and a good diet.

dmheric

02-27-2015, 05:02 PM

I'll never really know for sure, but my 'gut' feeling is that the Nutrafin Cycle did the trick. After 7 days with Stability I saw absolutely no change whatsoever, on day 3(today) with Nutrafin Cycle I had the posted results. If I were going to use a bacterial aid on another tank I would choose Nutrafin Cycle for sure. One thing I have been wondering about, and would like some input from others on this forum. Neither of these products indicate that you should use Ammonia to bring up your ammonia levels to 4ppm. I think rather they are expecting a very slow rise in Ammonia either from fish wastes or rotting fish food placed in tank. Is it possible with the big volume of ammonia we are introducing into our tanks all at once, that we should be adding a lot more of the cycle product. In the three day period, I did give one extra treatment. Your thoughts?

Hi Im not an expert but I never use the ammonia additives when I start my aquarium. I have a 55 gallon with six 3 to 5 inch discus. I fill my aquarium with aged water and add some stress coat and test ph and everything with my master test kit. I change 75 % of the water every
day for the first week and then 50 % every two days after that. I have never had a problem. Mine get fed a variety several times a day.

denise

nevertooold

02-28-2015, 02:01 AM

Ok, thanks everyone for your input. Hopefully once my tank is cycled and fish are in place my anxiety level will go down a little. Hope I haven't been too much of a pain :(

Mrs. J

02-28-2015, 09:56 PM

Noreen, just follow the directions your supplier gave you for putting the fish in the tank. We purchased six as well. We have been so fortunate that ours came from an excellent source and have been very healthy much to a great part to the help received here. We did not feed for 24 hours and kept lights off. Ours came to our hands to feed the next day. I will drink to your tank cycling! My hubby not much of a celebration person either...but after my tank cycled, I could breathe a sigh of relief...I did it right! As for gray(er) mine is totally that....but of course I was blonde until just last year! (lol) Thanks for the info on cycling with ammonia. I will be picking quite a few brains soon. I am fretting already about adding to our group due to the QT...I am having a hard time with the idea of a "hero fish" How do you decide which one of your babies are the one? Julia

nevertooold

03-01-2015, 01:54 AM

Yes, I'm a blonde too, and plan to stay that way forever! I am sure there will be people out there that will say, "A blonde, that explains a lot"! lol Would be a tough call who to designate as your "hero fish", but if you've bought from a trusted supplier the risk to your hero would likely be fairly low. He'll just be the lucky guy that gets to meet the new tank mates first. I never thought, when I started thinking about getting Discus, that I would meet so many interesting people as a result. I tend to be a bit of a hermit, so this has been really great for me. Will follow your progress with QT with interest, cause if I survive this step, I will likely be adding to my tank at some point. Noreen

nevertooold

03-03-2015, 09:34 PM

Could use a little more help. This is about PH this time :( Water coming from my tap, using API Master test kit, tests about 7.2, water I aged with aeration for 24 hours tests at 8.2, and the water in my aquarium tests about 7.6. There is lots of aeration in the aquarium. The aquarium is not finished cycling yet, but at the time I did the ph test the ammonia was very low, I was just getting ready to add more ammonia. I had done a 50% water change 2 days prior to bring the nitrites down to a level I could read. Nitrites are dropping so hopefully the cycle is just about complete, getting high nitrate readings. Using API test strips my GH is 180 and KH is 240. That's as high as the test strips read, so it could be more. The aquarium (90 gal) does have a large piece of driftwood and a thin layer of silica sand. I had hoped to do water changes straight from the tap. The only place I could possibly put an ageing barrel would be downstairs, so would require some sort of pump and hose or a lot of pail carrying. At 66 the prospect of carrying pails of water upstairs is a killer. Would appear tap water is closer in ph to tank water than the aged water is. I assume that is due to the driftwood in the tank?? What should I be doing? Thanks

discuspaul

03-03-2015, 09:46 PM

At times test kits may not be accurate if the directions are not precisely followed each & every time.

Do another test of water out of the tap, and water in your tank - if it remains near 7.2 from the tap, and near 7.6 in your tank (or less of course), then you have absolutely nothing to be concerned about. You needn't bother ageing your water.
(And btw I strongly suspect the test @ 8.2 on your aged water with aeration was not accurate - doesn't seem quite right, given the other two readings.)

nevertooold

03-03-2015, 09:49 PM

I will go test again, although I did it twice, and will post results right away. The aged water is in a plastic pail with an airstone, no heater.

nevertooold

03-03-2015, 10:03 PM

Ok, retested Aquarium using regular ph test is 7.6, using high range ph test is 7.8, tap water looks to be between 7 and 7.2 and the aged water is at 8.2 using the high range test

discuspaul

03-03-2015, 10:11 PM

Use the regular pH test for all 3 test applications. Don't change between the 2 types., i.e. don't use the high range for any of the tests.

nevertooold

03-03-2015, 11:04 PM

When you do the aged water with the regular ph test the colour is a really a deep intense blue, but the 7.6 reading is as high as it goes with the regular ph test chart. The 7.6 reading I get with the regular ph test of aquarium water is the actual colour blue shown on the chart. I just used an API test strip ( I know they are not as accurate) but the aged water tested 8 on the strip, tap water tested 7. I did not do the aquarium as I had just added ammonia. I'm really confused. Is there a more accurate way to measure ph or is this pretty much the standard test. If the ph of the water is greater than 7.6 would you not have to go to the high range to get an accurate reading. Just for interest I tested my tap water with the high range and it tested at 7.4 which is the lowest reading possible on the high range chart.

discuspaul

03-03-2015, 11:17 PM

The point to be made here is to simply use the regular pH test on both the tap water, and on the tank water (for the moment, just forget about the aged water).
If the difference between the two is less than .6 or even .7, then go ahead & use straight un-aged tap water for your wcs.
It's really quite as simple as that.
If that test goes beyond the test limitation numbers, then use the high range test for both tests, and the same differential applies.
And don't use the strips as any part of the test - they're useless. Use either the high range or regular range pH liquid chemical test from the API kit - don't interchange/intermix tests.

nevertooold

03-03-2015, 11:24 PM

Ok, I will just look at the tank water and the tap water for now and see what kind of results I get. Will check in the morning as the ammonia will be all gone in the tank by then. It will sure be great if I can do wc straight from the tap. Thanks for your help with this, really do appreciate the benefit of your experience. Noreen

nevertooold

03-04-2015, 10:47 PM

My tank is cycled I think. Ammonia has been dropping to 0 every 12 hrs for a couple of days. Always add ammonia to bring it back up to 4ppm, 12 hrs later its all gone. Nitrites have been dropping. Tonight Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, time to celebrate??? Added ammonia once again and will recheck in AM. So, evening before fish come you do a large water change 90%?. That brings your Nitrates down to a safe level. Do you then still add ammonia to keep bacteria going until fish arrive the next day? If I add up to 4ppm in the evening say 5 ish, by 5 AM it will be all gone. Getting close now. Did a recheck on my PH, thank water 7.6, tap water 7.2, so will try water changes directly from tap. Is there a product I should have on hand in case that does not go well? It will be scary the first change, you may have noticed I worry quite a bit ;) Noreen

discuspaul

03-04-2015, 11:30 PM

Based on what you've said, Noreen, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Just keep adding ammonia until the day before you get your discus.
Once you get them in the tank, just check the params (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates) the next day and for a couple of days thereafter just to be sure everything's ok.

nevertooold

03-05-2015, 01:01 AM

I will do that and let everyone know how it goes. This is very exciting, I can hardly wait to see them in the tank. At this point I wouldn't know a great fish from a poor one, so I will be happy if they swim, breath and eat! I will keep reading and learning so that one day I will know! Thanks again. Noreen

ericNH

03-05-2015, 10:29 AM

Well with all this build-up, now I'm also excited to see your fish. Please post when they arrive and are in the tank! Gratz!

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 12:13 PM

HELP! I have no idea what happened. I had tested my thank 3 times at 12 hr. intervals, putting ammonia in the tank each time after testing. Each time my ammonia was 0, my nitrites were 0. I was very happy, so last night I did a 90% water change to lower Nitrates and to get some practice doing a change before fish were in tank. Added the usual amount of ammonia and added two caps of Prime (90 gal tank). This morning my ammonia was 0 but my nitrite is 2ppm, Nitrates are down to 5ppm. What happened with the nitrites. I checked just tap water, its fine, tested tap water with a couple of drops of prime, it fine. I didn't add anything to tank, or take anything out. Never touched the filters at all What happened? What do I do? My fish are suppose to come on Thursday. Even if nitrites disappear by then I am going to be afraid to do another water change in case my nitrites spike up again. Noreen

Second Hand Pat

03-06-2015, 12:51 PM

Hi Noreen, sounds like the prime affected your readings. Don't worry about this. When your fish come do a 50% WC daily for at least a week. There is a good chance you will experience a mini-cycle due to adding the fish to the tank and it will take a week for the BB to adjust to the higher bio-load.
Pat

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 01:28 PM

Thanks Pat. So even if my test is showing nitrites it will be safe to add the fish with prime in the water as long as I do the wc daily, is that correct? I should add prime during every wc, is that correct? I do try to search for the answers to my questions, but nothing quite seems to fit my situation. Once I get the hang of this, I won't be such a pain to everyone.

Second Hand Pat

03-06-2015, 03:24 PM

Noreen, yes if you are diligent with the daily WCs, at least 50% as you are keeping any ammonia/nitrite at low levels. If you have chlorine/Chloramine in your source water you will need to add prime or some other de-chlorining product. I would suggest asking other member how they use it as I do not since I am on well water. I have read that most here add enough prime for the volume of the whole tank just before adding the new water to the tank.

Solid

03-06-2015, 05:14 PM

If you are adding the tap water directly to the tank, you should dose Prime at full tank volume. If you are aging your water and mixing the prime into the water before adding it to the tank, you can just add enough prime for the water you are replacing.

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 06:08 PM

This is so confusing, not sure what happened. I had done a 50% water change a few days back to bring Nitrite levels down to a point where I could read them with the API test kit. I added Prime at that time. I guess because I was still getting Nitrite readings at that time I wouldn't have noticed if the Prime did anything to my results. I was definitely getting 0 readings on my Nitrite test before my 90% water change. Water changed directly from tap. 2 caps of Prime added to tank (1cap/50gal). I am on well water. No chlorine/chloramines. Added Prime just as a precaution and it said it removed heavy metals and promoted slime coat so I thought it might be a good thing to use. My ammonia levels are still at 0, I just tested again nitrates look to be over 2ppm. Should I do another water change right away without Prime to see if that is what caused the problem, or should I just wait, keep using ammonia, and see what happens. Fish not coming till Thursday. You all seem to be so good at this. Why is it so hard when you are starting out. I'm not stupid, I know I am doing the tests properly. Things seemed to be going along fine although I was struggling to understand the process and you have all helped me with that. Just when I thought I was almost there, this happens. Prime shouldn't be affecting my readings as far as I understand. I may just eat the fish and drown myself in the tank lol Guess if I was looking for something to challenge my brain, this is doing it.

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 06:28 PM

Just sent off an enquiry to Seachem to see if they know if Prime could be causing a false reading on an API test

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 08:40 PM

I am working on trying to solve this on my own, don't expect you guys to do all the thinking for me. I did find something on line that suggested that after a large wc, adding ammonia back up to 4ppm might have overwhelmed the bio filter, and that it's just working through the system. So perhaps the nitrates will disappear by morning, sure hoping so. They suggested using less ammonia until fish are in the tank, as fish create ammonia slowly, not a big amount all at once the way adding 4ppm of ammonia liquid does. Does that sound right to you guys? Noreen

Second Hand Pat

03-06-2015, 09:21 PM

Noreen, you have a little time to play with this so please report your findings. Also check your source water for nitrites.
Pat

nevertooold

03-06-2015, 09:46 PM

Pat, I did check my tap water, 0 nitrites, added prime to tap water, 0 nitrites, added prime and ammonia to tap water, 0 nitrites. I'm ready to have a stroke and my husband is ready to throw me out the window. Will see what morning brings. See if the bio filter brings the ammonia down to 0 again and what the nitrites are. Hoping they will be 0 again. Will NEVER do such a large water change again unless fish are going in and not ammonia. Will let you all know what tomorrow morning brings. Thanks Noreen

nevertooold

03-07-2015, 09:36 AM

This morning my ammonia is back down to 0 but Nitrites are still at 2ppm. I have no idea what happened. Topped the ammonia up again and will check when I get home from work

nevertooold

03-07-2015, 09:30 PM

Latest installment in ongoing saga. Bacteria did its job on ammonia, back down to 0 tonight, Nitrites still sitting at 2ppm, Nitrates somewhere between 5 - 10 ppm. Back where I was a couple of weeks ago. :(

nevertooold

03-08-2015, 09:18 PM

Things are looking up! This morning ammonia was 0, Nitrites were below 2ppm, I could see there had been a change. This time when I added ammonia I only put enough in to bring it up to 2ppm. Tonight Ammonia 0, Nitrites almost 0, just slightly off. Once again I added only enough ammonia to bring it up to 2ppm. Some how I think the big water change must have washed out some of the bacteria that digests Nitrites. Thankfully it is growing back. Before fish come think I will stick with only a 50% wc. Glad I tried the big wc in advance and was not faced with this issue the day the fish were arriving. Anyway I am MUCH happier tonight. :) :)

discuspaul

03-08-2015, 09:41 PM

Good for you, Noreen. See, it's not difficult - just takes a little patience.
Keep us informed when the fish arrive.

nevertooold

03-09-2015, 12:37 AM

Define difficult! Would be nice to know for sure WHY it happened so that it won't happen to the next newby that comes along. If I had more time before the fish come I would try another large wc to see if I would get a repeat performance. My guess would be that if you are setting up a new tank using ammonia, and do a 90% water change right after you tank completes its cycle, do not add ammonia up to 4ppm again. If you don't have fish to go in right away, go with a lower amount of ammonia like 2ppm. That's my best guess. I just live east of Chilliwack, so if something goes wrong again you probably won't have to read about it here, you'll probably hear me yelling! Patience appears to be a virtue I am sadly lacking. ;(

nevertooold

03-09-2015, 08:28 PM

Sad to say, my tank is not cycled yet. Kept wondering about the API nitrate test and how it had changed, so I kept digging. It appears if your nitrates are off the chart, the water will turn purple as soon as you put drops in but will fade to a bluish color in the 5 min. waiting time, which is what mine was now doing. The big water change had just dropped the nitrites down to where I could get an accurate reading, as they built up again I started getting the fade to bluish color. To confirm I tested my tank with a test strip and the nitrates read at 10ppm(as high as it would read) I also mixed 50% tap water with 50% tank water and used the API Master Kit and got a reading of 5ppm(as high as it will read) I read the information with the Master Test Kit and there is no mention of this at all. What would have happened to my poor fish if I had put them in that s***! I am trying to make arrangements to have the supplier hold my fish a bit longer. Did someone say this was not difficult!! Is there a better type of test kit I should be looking for. What if I had killed all my fish! Just makes me sick to think of it. Noreen

Second Hand Pat

03-09-2015, 08:33 PM

Noreen, you just would have done those large, daily water changes.
Pat

nevertooold

03-09-2015, 10:09 PM

For sure I would have, as long as I realized what the problem was before it was too late. You would think something that important would be mentioned in the API directions, but there is nothing! Oh well, will try exercising some of the patience Paul advised. Now that I know what is happening, the next time I announce that my tank is cycled, it will be. What a goof I am, lol.

Mrs. J

03-10-2015, 08:22 PM

Noreen,

My water parameters appeared to be all over the place at first too. I did some digging and found the API website that has a colorchart that tells what is safe for your readings, and for the discus in particular. I had what appeared to be high ammonia readings, until I discovered that using the API test kit with prime will throw your readings slightly off, I finally gave in and decided to use only one provider and ordered the test kits from Seachem since I do believe that Prime is an excellent product and will give you true ammonia readings, both free ammonia and total ammonia. They can be a pain to use compared to the API but I am much more comfortable with them. If you can find the API color chart it will prove useful for you and has some valuable info. Again, BREATHE, my hubby and I often disagree on how we should care for our kids...I tend to be "too careful" according to him (read a worrier) and I don't think he is careful enough. You are going to do fine...and I don't think the babies would be very appetizing! Believe me, we have had mechanical failures, heater malfunctions,etc. and they are still going well. Yours will too.

Julia

nevertooold

03-11-2015, 12:45 AM

Julia, thanks for your words of encouragement, they help. I will look for the API website and colorchart. I did contact Seachem and they assured me that Prime cannot cause difficulty with your readings. Finally getting all this water stuff kinda, sorta figured out, then last night our power went off, was out for about 4 hrs. Everything seemed to start up again okay when the power came on except for my heaters. I had to manually reset them, guess that's really not a big deal as I am usually around, except for when I'm at work. If I had this to do over again, I wouldn't even look at fish until I had my tank cycled. Thanks again for your support. Noreen

nevertooold

03-14-2015, 12:21 PM

Could really use some more words of encouragement. The cycle just doesn't appear to be moving forward at all. Ammonia topped up twice a day, before each addition all the ammonia is gone, 0 reading, after addition reading is about 3ppm. Nitrite is unreadable its so high. I did a 50% water change last night, so now Nitrites test at 5ppm without changing to that funny color after 5 min. I do have Nitrates in my tank too, but they are just sitting at around 5ppm and have been there for a few days. PH 7.6. I feel almost that the bacteria that digest the nitrites started growing but for some reason aren't anymore. Is that possible? If the Nitrates were slowly increasing I would know things were progressing normally. Is what's happening okay? Thanks Noreen

ericNH

03-14-2015, 02:22 PM

From what I know about the nitrogen cycle, there are essentially 2 phases. The first is development of the bacteria that turn ammonia into nitrite, the second is development of the bacteria that turn nitite into nitrate. It sounds to me like you have a good grasp on this, probably better than mine.

I think all that's needed now is patience.

nevertooold

03-14-2015, 03:47 PM

Thanks for your input Eric. It really is nice to know there are good people out there that take the time to reach out with help and encouragement. From what I know about most bacteria, is that once they start to replicate they usually spread like 'stink'. I just expected to see my nitrates go up faster once those bacteria were present in the aquarium. An impatient older woman is not a pretty sight,lol. I will keep monitoring the tank, hopefully I will see some movement in the right direction soon. Noreen

DiscusRob

03-15-2015, 10:45 AM

Nitrates generally build up over time usually with neglect, if you are doing water changes as I've read, and not having a heavily populated tank at the moment, you will not see a measurable increase in Nitrate levels. jmho

nevertooold

03-17-2015, 10:11 PM

Ok guys, now I really need some directions. My tank is still not cycled. Just did a 50% water change and nitrites are still at 5ppm. The person I had purchased the fish from had agreed to hold them for 30 days, which will be up on Thursday and he would like to get them shipped. They are taking up a tank that he could be using for other orders, so I understand his concern. So I think he will ship them to me on Friday, what do I do to keep my fish safe. What product should I use in the water for them. I have Prime, will that work. I can do daily water changes to start, but not sure how long I can manage that. I wish I had never ordered fish until I had my tank cycled, live and learn I guess. We have a lot less choices here in Canada and this guy had the kind of fish I was wanting so I felt I needed to buy at that moment. Suggestions? Noreen

alron2

03-17-2015, 10:47 PM

Ask the seller to sell you a used sponge filter to help with your cycle. He could send it with the fish.
Ron

discuspaul

03-17-2015, 10:59 PM

Yes a sponge filter from the seller would definitely help. But also maintain daily wcs for a while, using Prime as the conditioner. You should be fine with that.

nevertooold

03-18-2015, 01:26 AM

The seller has just offered to hold them an extra two weeks for some extra cash. Really torn about what to do. Want to do what is best for the fish, but at this point I'm not sure what that is. Repeated my 50% water change just now, nitrites still between 2 - 5 ppm. Will the fish be okay with water changes and Prime, or should I pay the extra and try to give my tank time to finish its cycle. I know it's hardly fair to ask that question but you all have so much experience and right now I feel a little overwhelmed. My gut feeling is that maybe I should just get them here and deal with whatever happens. I would appreciate your input, but realize the final decision is mine to make. Thanks Noreen

nevertooold

03-18-2015, 09:44 AM

Went ahead and told the seller to ship to me on Friday. With the water change last night nitrates very low this AM. Hopefully I can manage okay with Prime and wcs. Hopefully my tank is close to cycled.

Second Hand Pat

03-18-2015, 10:10 AM

Hi Noreen, congrats on the pending arrival of your new fish. I think once you have a good bio-load your tank will settle out in a week or two.
Pat

Mrs. J

03-18-2015, 08:49 PM

Noreen, You are doing fine. Keeping up with your tank parameters, etc. I know how excited and scared you are about now. My fish came in and did well, thanks to all on this forum. Had to adjust some of my readings with help and my babes did well in spite of it all. Water changes are critical and Prime is what I have used.
Your tank will settle in with the addition of your fish. Mine did too (finally) after all the worries. BREATHE....and enjoy. Julia

nevertooold

03-18-2015, 10:19 PM

Well the fish are coming, so one way or another what will be will be. This morning my nitrites were very low (after 2 50% water changes yesterday). I did not test nitrates, they have always been testing very low so didn't bother. I added 2 tsp of ammonia which brings my ammonia level up to about 3ppm, that was at 5 AM. When I got home from work at 4 PM tested again. Ammonia 0, nitrites 5ppm and this time my nitrate level was over the top, solution almost blood red (API test). I have no idea what is driving this. I have just done another 50% water change and will see what tomorrow morning brings. Then I guess I will add only 1 tsp of ammonia tomorrow morning, do a large water change in the evening and the fish arrive before noon the next day. I have not been adding Prime during my changes as I am on well water with no chlorine. Should I add the Prime with the water change tomorrow night or wait and add it on Friday morning? If I am doing daily water changes, should I be adding Prime each time to bind up the nitrites and nitrates until the tank finishes cycling. If I add each time, as I suppose is necessary, should I be adding the amount for the full tank volume each time? The only thing in my tank besides a thin layer of silica sand is a piece of driftwood. It now has some slimy, kind of fluffy brown stuff growing on it. Could that cause problems with my readings or is that just normal growth. This is really, really hard! If mankind can step foot on the moon, and live for months on a space station, why the h*** is it so hard to cycle on 90 gallon tank. I've done so much reading and so many people seem to struggle, then others say they cycled their tanks in 3 weeks. What's with that! Anyway, just venting. Will see what tomorrow brings. Thanks to all of you for being there lending your support. Noreen

alron2

03-18-2015, 11:00 PM

Noreen.

If I had your tank I would remove the drift wood and see if that helps. Could it be that your wood is decaying? Easy to test.
Ron

nevertooold

03-19-2015, 12:54 AM

I hesitate to throw out the driftwood as the BB colonize all surfaces in the tank, so I could be throwing out a lot of good bacteria with the driftwood. I will give it till tomorrow, will add way less ammonia and if I still get a big spike in nitrites, guess I will have to take out the driftwood and see if that helps. I hate the look of the artificial stuff and it is very expensive to get something large. See what happens tomorrow. Noreen

Second Hand Pat

03-19-2015, 07:57 AM

Noreen, can you post a picture of your driftwood in your tank?
Pat

nevertooold

03-19-2015, 08:01 PM

Here is a pic of my driftwood, if I can get it to post85657

nevertooold

03-19-2015, 08:12 PM

Now I have another issue, will it never end. It would appear I have Nitrates in my well water. I had only tested it for nitrites and that was 0ppm. Tonight I tested it for Nitrates and I have 10ppm in my well! Tested it 3 times. Now what should I do. I realize anything under 20ppm is safe for fish, but how quickly will it go from 10 to 20 ppm. As far as Nitrites go, I did a water change (about 70%) around supper time last night. At about 10pm I tested the water and Nitrites were 0 ppm. Tested again at 5am and still 0ppm. I added 1 tsp ammonia to tank. Tested at 4pm and have 0 ammonia and .50ppm nitrites. That was less than 12 hrs. Pretty sure it will all be gone by morning. Fish will not arrive here till 6pm tomorrow. Is it okay to leave the water change till tomorrow morning, add the prime at that time and hopefully not kill the fish when I put them in at 6pm.

discuspaul

03-19-2015, 08:30 PM

Yes, Noreen - just leave your WC until tomorrow morning. Things seem to be falling well into place - not to worry, everything should be just fine.

nevertooold

03-20-2015, 06:06 PM

Ok guys, leaving for airport in 1 hr. Water change all done, things seem ready. I am going to use an Eheim automatic feeder to feed these guys while I am at work. What do you think is best to put in it? I read that flake food was best, that pellets should be soaked about 5 min. before feeding. Thought I would feed pellets in AM before going to work, then two feedings of flake from automatic feeder while I am at work, bloodworms when I get home, then maybe more pellets before lights out at 8 PM. Does that sound any good? Should I leave the light out when I get them home? They've been in the dark most of the day, since early morning. It will be 6 ish before they are in tank, thought I would leave light on till 8 which will be the usual time for lights out. If I am forgetting something, or missing something or doing something really wrong you have between now and 6 to set me straight. I'm a wreck! Seems so silly, but that's the way it is today. Noreen

Tankster

03-20-2015, 07:56 PM

Hi Noreen,

I would advise against the auto-feeder while at work. I say this based on personal experience in doing the same as you are planning.

The main problem with the auto-feeder is the leftover uneaten food that is going to sit on your tank bottom for the 3-5 hours while you are at work. Uneaten food is, in my opinion, the biggest contributor to poor water quality. I too used an Eheim and the difficulty with the auto-feeder is controlling the amount of food it dispenses... especially with flake food. One turn you might get a big dump and the next turn, might not. You just never know because of the way the flakes bunch up and interlock sometimes. I understand your wanting to make sure your babies get plenty of food, and you probably researched, as I did, how many times you need to feed them every day. Truth be told, they only need to be fed twice a day. You will hear this from many of the top breeders here on this forum - twice a day is all that is needed.

My feeding schedule is: wake up - go drop some of Bills Beef-heart flake in the tank - go shower and get ready - siphon out left over flake - stick 2-3 FDBW (freeze dried black worms) on the inside of the tank - head to work. Arrive home between 5PM and 6PM - flake - eat dinner with the family - siphon flake - 2-3 more FDBW cubes. chill out with the family - a few more FDBW before bedtime.

I am not going to tell you not to do the auto-feeder but will advise you to keep a close eye on your water quality (ammonia levels) if you do choose to use it.

discuspaul

03-20-2015, 08:27 PM

Great advice from Greg, Noreen - I second his comments.
Remember - twice a day feedings are all that is necessary.

Tankster

03-20-2015, 08:33 PM

One other quick suggestion - once you get them in the tank tonight, lights out -some ambient light from a low wattage bulb or a hall light would be good.

nevertooold

03-20-2015, 11:00 PM

Not off to a very good start, the largest fish arrived dead, the remaining 8 are swimming in tank. The larger dead fish (4") doesn't appear to have much for slime coat. The others were suppose to be 3" - 4" but there are a couple that are smaller than that. The light is off, and I won't feed them until morning. I know so little about these fish, I have no idea if I even got the fish I ordered, and I know they don't color up until older. I can tell the yellow checkerboard pigeon. I did notify the shipper and he requested a picture of the dead fish which I have sent. I also put it in a freezer bag and in the freezer for now. It's so hard here to put together a group of discus so there will be no bullying. The fish did appear to be well packaged for shipping. Double bagged, securely packed in Styrofoam box with little heater things and snugly placed in cardboard box. Can't see anything that could have been done differently. He supposedly held my fish in a separate tank for the last month, how big would they have been at time of purchase. How much do they grow in a month. I know nothing. What a gong show!! I just hope the rest survive. Not my best day for sure.

discuspaul

03-21-2015, 12:11 AM

Noreen, since you mentioned that one of your discus had arrived dead, it got me thinking, and so I just went through all of the posts in this thread to check as to who the supplier was - but nowhere did I see any mention of the identity or location of the seller of your discus.

You're in Chilliwack, are you not, and I believe you said the discus came in by plane. I'm relatively familiar with some of the quality discus suppliers in Canada (there aren't many to my knowledge), and one of the best, and nearest to you is Rick Grange of Canadian Aqua Farm in Maple Ridge, B.C., not more than one hour car drive from you.

May I inquire as to the identity & location of your seller ?

Not meaning to be an alarmist, and perhaps there is nothing at all to be concerned about, but it seemed strange to me that one discus would arrive dead after having been air-shipped into decently mild spring weather in our neck of the woods, and seemingly properly packed for shipment.

Also, you mentioned the largest fish that died was 4", while the others that had survived where of a smaller size than you had originally anticipated receiving (or had ordered), i.e. under 3" to 4". Indeed, you also said you weren't even sure they were what you ordered.
Again, seems a little strange and my curiosity has got to me. Can you fill us in a bit ?

I must emphasize that one discus arriving dead from an air-shipment does in no way cast negative connotations regarding the seller (that has no doubt happened many times to a number of sellers & buyers for no known good reason), and certainly is no indicator or precursor that your remaining fish will not work out just splendidly - but it does beg some questions.

Will be interesting to hear what the seller has to say regarding the dead fish.

nevertooold

03-21-2015, 12:41 AM

The reason I have not mentioned the sellers name was because he was not a sponsor here. I knew nothing about him, found him online. I would prefer not to give his name simply because I know so little about these fish that I wouldn't know a good one from a bad one. I did know a dead one though. The fish that arrived here today may be wonderful or simply crap, only time will tell. Would not want to smear someone's name because of my lack of knowledge. I will say though that the fish came from Saskatchewan. I have spoken to Rick, I actually planned to buy from him, but he only had about two fish that I wanted in a size I could afford. I asked him if he could bring in a special order, but he told me he just got some of each, of what was available, when he placed an order. I needed to get at least 6 at one time so the fish wouldn't fight and I really didn't want to purchase fish I didn't want just to make up the appropriate number. I found this guy and he had the fish I liked and so here we are. It wasn't the price, I paid approx. the same as I would have with Rick, it was simply selection. The seller did request a picture of the fish. I am hoping I will get a refund, but my gut feeling is that's not likely to happen but I could be wrong. Paid $125. for that fish. Expensive loss for me, but I feel really rotten 'cause that fish was alive this morning and now it's dead. I am just praying that the rest survive. I feel really terrible!

nevertooold

03-21-2015, 09:04 PM

I will try posting a picture of my fish. I have been told that I will not get a refund, but will have a credit with the seller if I wish to purchase more fish, which will also mean an additional cost to me for shipping. :( There is a fair amount of peppering on the pigeon bloods. On the up side, so far they are still alive. They have eaten a little beef heart flake this AM and just gave them a little frozen blood worms now and I think most ate a little. Will try some soaked pellets later. Sure wish one of you lived across the road!85849

nevertooold

03-21-2015, 09:05 PM

oops, guess my picture posted sideways, give you an idea anyway. Noreen

nevertooold

03-21-2015, 09:10 PM

I forgot I also have a question. Want to ask your opinion before I buy something as it would appear my purchase of the Eheim automatic feeder was not a good choice. I see that Eheim also makes a tank vacuum that just recirculates the water while picking up bottom debris. Would this be a good thing to have to use between water changes to keep the bottom as clean as possible. Good thing, or waste of money? Thanks Noreen

discuspaul

03-21-2015, 09:27 PM

Noreen, I've not seen or used an Eheim vacuum that recirculates water - not sure what benefit that would provide - sounds like an expensive 'toy'. Why not just use a common aquarium vacuum tool which would likely be much less costly.

Btw, is there any way you can manage to post more pics of your fish ?

Tankster

03-22-2015, 12:00 AM

Noreen - I've not used one personally but have heard good things about them. The benefit is you remove the debris without removing water. We all know water changes are important but doing a mini change after a feeding is really of no benefit, other than removing the debris. This is sometimes a pain for me because I age my water 24 hours and my holding tank is the same size as my grow out tank.

If you do invest in one of these, please let me know if you like it, and if it works as advertised. Be sure to read the fine print on max tank depth the vac works at. I forget what size your tank is but know the feeder only works to a certain depth.

nevertooold

03-22-2015, 12:56 AM

Greg that was my thinking exactly. Not looking to replace regular large WC, just looking for a quick clean up of left over food as I'm running out the door for work. Really think I may give it a try. Will let you know. Paul, I will try to post more pic tomorrow. Grandkids visiting and can't get on my computer tonight.

Mrs. J

03-22-2015, 01:15 PM

Noreen,

So sad for your dilemma. Hardly seems fair about the no refund but will be glad to have you pay additional shipping thing...We were so fortunate we found simply discus forum and one of their sponsors. Most do guarantee 48 hour live delivery. Just so sad for you. I know this is not the way you wanted to start out. We were somewhat limited to what we could get, but turned out to be a good discipline for us and mine are really beautiful. My pigeon bloods started to pepper and I changed the background to a lighter one and it seemed to make a difference. Keep your spirits up. You will do great, I know you will. This is unfortunately just one of those awful bumps in the road. I feed my kids three times a day. Get up a little earlier in order to feed/siphon but worth the effort. I Feed early am, then when I get home from work and again about an hour before I close them down for the night. You will find you will get your rhythm with it. You are like me and will worry yourself to death, I also feel for the little one that did not survive...on the bright side, the others did.

nevertooold

03-23-2015, 12:03 AM

Here are some pictures of my fish. Sorry I'm not the best at taking pictures. :(858778587885879

nevertooold

03-23-2015, 12:10 AM

Wish I could figure out how to get the pictures in the right direction lol. Oh well, just turn your head sideways and it will all be good! Fish are eating a bit, seem calm and I did a 50% WC tonight without incident so I guess that is good. Julia, thanks once again for your kind words. I had to laugh about getting up a little bit earlier. I get up at 4:40 now, just to get all the parrots sorted out for the day. Have to now squeeze a fish feeding in there too. We need to be out the door by 6 to be at work for 6:30. Usually home by 3, so another feeding then and another later in evening. Will get a routine working and then things will go smoother. Noreen

nevertooold

03-23-2015, 11:25 PM

Greg, just wanted to let you know that I purchased the Eheim Quick Vac today and tried it out tonight. It actually works pretty well. The batteries it came with were TOTALLY dead, so had to purchase new ones to try it out. It takes 4 - AA Alkaline batteries. I have sand substrate so if I put it into the sand it did suck some of it up, but not a lot. It did pick up all the left over heavier food pieces. Easy to put together and take apart for cleaning. It is good to a depth of 3'. I have a 50' hose on my siphon and I go from my tank, downstairs to the laundry room to do a good cleaning and WC so this little gadget makes for a quick cleaning on alternate nights. It remains to be seen how long it lasts, but for now I am satisfied with the job it did. I am really so busy any little bit helps. Hope that info helps you. Noreen

nevertooold

03-24-2015, 06:31 PM

Now I need medical advice, I think. The Siam Golden Yellow fish appeared to be doing a little more 'head standing' than the other fish. It seemed to be swimming okay, so thought maybe it was nothing. Today I now notice that fish appears to be breathing with only one gill, that can't be good. Any suggestions? As far as I can tell, at the moment, that seems to be the only affected fish. It still is eating. I can't see anything externally, just that the gill is not moving. Thanks Noreen

nevertooold

03-24-2015, 11:49 PM

Sorry if I'm driving everyone crazy with all my postings. Went to my lfs, felt like I had to do something to try to help. I purchased some API General Cure and some aquarium salt. I was thinking that if anything it was likely parasitic. I did my 50% WC (doing every other day) and added the aquarium salt to the tank. I did not add the General Cure, thought I would wait and see how things went with the salt. That fish is breathing with both gills now. I can hardly believe it, have no idea how that can be. Right now I am just going to leave things as they are and see what happens. Hate to start throwing meds in the tank if they are not needed. Noreen

nevertooold

03-25-2015, 08:15 PM

Now I've lost another fish. It was the smallest one. The one that was breathing with only one gill is still using them both now. I went ahead and put the General Cure in the tank, and also raised the temp up to 88 degrees, up from 86. I think one, possibly two may have ich on their tails (looks like specks of salt). Poor fish probably have every disease known to man. Oh well, I will do my best to pull them through. Noreen

discuspaul

03-25-2015, 08:44 PM

You haven't heard from me for a while, Noreen, as I've been quietly commiserating with your misfortunes, and holding my tongue.
You're experiencing a fairly typical discus beginner problem, but you have to make the best of it, give the discus you have the best care you can - which you are - and hope for the best.

I sincerely trust this is a well learned lesson for you, i.e. - buying discus from an un-referred, unknown source found on-line, and getting sub-standard quality, poorly-shaped, and even stunted fish, which was obvious upon seeing the pics.

Hopefully, if you don't get soured on keeping discus, and want to give it another shot sometime, doing it the right way - then get your discus from (a Canadian) sponsor on SD, i.e. Rick of Canadian Aqua Farm in Maple Ridge, who as you know is located so very near you.
At any rate, I do sincerely wish you the very best for the future. Keep up with your wonderful attitude.

nevertooold

03-25-2015, 11:55 PM

Thanks for your input. The supplier is now telling me I should be using r/o water, cause the Discus can get gill flukes from well water. I am pretty sure they have gill flukes, but it arrived here with the fish. Will do what I can. If I had it to do over again, I would just purchase the one or two fish Rick had that I wanted at that time, and wait till he got something else in that I wanted and buy some more. Dealing with some aggression would be better than this. I felt I had to get at least 6 to begin so they wouldn't fight. It appears from all the reading I have done, that a lot of people keep small numbers. It might not be ideal, but this sure isn't either. I had actually contacted several suppliers in the USA to see about shipping fish here, but cost would be more than I could manage. I just want to make it clear, that I thought Rick was very helpful, and I would have purchased from him if he had the types of fish I wanted and in a size I could afford. As I say, if I were to do over I would just start with what he had at the moment and add to the number as he brought new fish in. Here is the web of the person I purchased from 'discusfishcanadasuperstore.com. I was actually trying to follow advice given on this forum in trying to put together a group of at least 6, nobody ever suggested the possibility of starting with a few and adding to the number over lets say six months or so. Anyway hindsight is a great thing. Noreen

discuspaul

03-26-2015, 12:46 AM

Never mind the RO water - and I don't think your discus have gill flukes. They look healthy enough, and as they're eating ok -that's great - they're just sub-standard, poorly-shaped &/or stunted fish - nothing more or less than that.
But since they're healthy enough - by appearance at least - they should give you a lot of pleasure going forward.
All the best, Noreen.

nevertooold

03-26-2015, 01:36 AM

Paul, I'm looking to understand the situation. Are you saying that the fish that died in shipment and the one that just died, died because they were substandard? The fish that was breathing out of just one gill appears to be doing much better now, I'm thinking something must have helped. You are right about my desire to just have a tank of pretty fish to look at. I have no aspirations to breed fish or to have the best Discus going. All my parrots are by most peoples judgment 'substandard', both in appearance and attitude but they still need someone to love and care for them. They all came from a rescue, someone else threw them away I guess because they were 'substandard'. These fish may be a long, long way from the best, but they will be treated as if they were worth a million dollars. I never back off when it comes to doing my best for any creature in my care. I appreciate all the help I have received from everyone here. I am sure I will make more mistakes as I go along but I will learn and that is what this journey is about for me. I want to learn about Discus. Thank you for keeping and eye on me and helping me learn. Hopefully at the end of this learning curve I won't have an empty tank sitting in my living room. lol Noreen

discuspaul

03-26-2015, 11:51 AM

No, I'm not saying that, Noreen.
The 2 fish perishing was not due directly to being sub-standard per se - they likely had not been cared for properly before you got them (given their overall condition when you got them), and I strongly suspect they were already in a weakened condition, i.e. less than in good health. The grueling trip from Sask. to you, along with being placed into a new environment, was what I believe 'put them over the edge' (the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.)

nevertooold

03-26-2015, 01:25 PM

Okay, basically a fish in really good condition can tolerate more stress than one in poorer condition. Works that way in most animals. Looking at the pic I posted, what do you see that says to you they are poorer quality. All I see is fish :( If you or anyone else could point out things, referring back to my pictures it would be a big help in learning. Noreen

discuspaul

03-26-2015, 02:18 PM

Look at many of the photos in this thread (link below), and compare them carefully to the general look/appearance of your fish.
Healthy, well-shaped discus of good quality are almost fully rounded, not football-shaped, nor ovally elongated, and have a good eye to body ratio sizing. A stunted fish has uncommonly large eyes in relation to the overall body size. That feature stands out - there is very little body spacing vertically from the brow to the chin. In a properly proportioned discus, you should be able to envisage sufficient space in which to vertically place or insert 4, 5, or more, eyes from forehead to chin. Stunted discus usually have space for just 2 or 3 eyes - are you following me ?

Looking at your second photo you'll note several fish that have very apparent football shapes, and some do not have a good eye to body ratio. Also, the varied color discus with the stress bars seem quite small, under 3", and that is somewhat indicative of a stunted condition - the fish are likely significantly older than they appear (i.e. they look like 2 or 3 month old youngsters, when in fact they are very likely older than 5 or 6 months, by which time a healthy, properly grown out discus should be near to double that size.

Also look at your 2 yellowish fish in the top center of your first photo that are seen more or less head-on - their eyes are protruding out significantly away from the body, they appear quite thin, and have pinched in foreheads and below the mouth areas - another sign of poorly grown out fish that have developed in a sub-standard manner.

That's the best descriptive conditions I can manage here, Noreen - it does take a practiced eye to note tell-tale conditions of sub-standard discus. It will only come to you with time.
Hope this helps.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?118945-I-Double-Dog-Dare-you

nevertooold

03-26-2015, 03:55 PM

Paul, that is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Now when I get home from work I can sit in front of my tank and really examine the fish. These will be my practice fish. They will show me if I have the dedication to continue with this hobby. Thanks again for taking the time to help me. Noreen

Cullymoto

03-27-2015, 12:23 AM

Late comer to the conversation...

All is not lost.
You said earlier you'll love the fishes even if stunted. From my experience, I stunted one (a few actually) and she survived my learning curve. Now, she's the stubbornnest fish I have. Oddly shaped with a messy edge of fin and a great big ol eye. We love her.
As stated by others, we've long ago stopped getting fish from "wherever" or pet stores. I have a good history with Rick at Aqua farm, and even have named a fish after him. ... Turns out that fish is female.... Oops. Talk to him, he may hold a few fish from current stock while waiting for the next shipment. Doesn't hurt to ask.

Your well on your way.
We have all doomed a few fish in learning things.
You do not need r/o, specially living in bc. "Most" bc water is soft anyway, would just be a waste of cash.
Keep their house clean, give them good foods ( Rick at Aqua farm again, FDBW is really good stuff ) and they can do well.
Only thing I would add, and it might have been said before, you may want to get some metro and flubendazole - wormer plus - (www.angelfins.ca) for your medicine cabinet. These are trusted meds and used properly can even be occasional profilactic if you suspect flukes or worms.
Keep your stick on the ice

nevertooold

03-27-2015, 12:49 AM

Thank you for joining the conversation. See you are in Edmonton, I have a son living there and my husband and I farmed east of Camrose most of our lives. Yes I will certainly love and care for my fish regardless of their condition. Paul pointed out a lot of things so hopefully I am learning the difference between a quality discus and one that is not so much ;) I have text with Rick in the past, but was anxious to get started and he didn't have what I was looking for at that time. Guess I should have waited, but ah well, what's done is done. I have already ordered some FDBW from Rick so hopefully they will maybe be here tomorrow. Thanks for mentioning some meds to have on hand. I am not sure what I should be using, so it's nice to get pointed in the right direction. Thanks again for reaching out with encouragement, it means a lot!!

nevertooold

03-29-2015, 01:14 AM

Just a quick update. All fish are still alive and eating well. Awaiting arrival of black worms from Rick to see how they like those. Hopefully good food will help these guys reach whatever potential they might have. Noreen

Cullymoto

03-29-2015, 10:09 AM

You'll be pleased with the FDBW.
I hand feed my wet kids with them. In fact I have to hold on tight to the FDBW cube or they take it out of my hands too quickly... Spoils my fun.

nevertooold

04-01-2015, 12:58 AM

Update: My poor little guys may have gotten off to a rough start in their lives but are making up for it now. Can they ever eat, anything I give them! I am using Tetrabits, beefheart flake, tubifex worms, blood worms, black worms and brine shrimp. They take awhile to clean up, but they sure don't leave much. They are looking less thin and their color is getting more vivid. Pulled from the brink, makes me feel good :) Thanks again to everyone of you that helped me along with comments and advice. I hope also that any others, new to Discus keeping, reading this will also learn from my journey. I will post new pictures of them in a bit when they've had time to grow some. They will never be the best, but I will try hard to make sure that their life is the best it can be. Noreen

nevertooold

04-17-2015, 09:50 PM

New problem. Things have been going along pretty well, sort of. Fish are not eating as well as I would like to see and not pooping a lot. Guess that follows with not eating. I have been doing 50 - 70 % water changes every second day. Water has always tested perfect. Last night was a wc night and I did about 70%. Just checked my parameters now and Ammonia is at 0 but nitrites are at 0.25ppm. What would cause this. I do have Prime in the water. I use it with every wc even though I am on well water with no chlorine. Should I do another water change right away or wait as usual till tomorrow. Noreen

nevertooold

04-17-2015, 10:44 PM

False alarm. Just for the heck of it I retested the water. Nitrates 0, did it again Nitrates 0 Have no idea why the first test showed 0.25ppm. Thank goodness. Can anyone tell me how much 9 fish, average size say 3" should eat in a day. I am using black worm cubes, tubifex worm cubes, beefheart flake, frozen brine shrimp cubes, blood worms and Tetrabits. These guys eat so slow, have to leave it in the tank a long time for them to eat anything. Thanks Noreen

DiscusRob

04-18-2015, 06:50 AM

Good to know, had me scared there for a minute, you mentioned the problem being nitrites, not nitrates, nitrites at that reading would be a big problem, nitrates are controlled by water changes:):):).

nevertooold

04-18-2015, 09:30 PM

Actually it was Nitrites that had a false reading. Have no idea why I said Nitrates in my second posting. Just checked the tank again now and Nitrites are still at 0, so no idea what or how I ended up with the false reading yesterday. Would still like some guidance regarding amount to feed from someone. Thanks Noreen

Second Hand Pat

04-18-2015, 09:46 PM

Noreen, feed enough so the fish eat everything in a very short time frame. How many times are you feeding?
Pat

nevertooold

04-19-2015, 01:09 AM

Pat, I have been feeding about 4 times a day. First time is at 5 AM, poor fish think I'm nuts, then I'm gone all day till approx. 3PM and I space out about 3 more feedings till lights out at 9PM. At first they all seemed to eat pretty well. I would give a big pinch of beefheart flake and some soaked Tetrabits for first feeding. They were not very eager to eat so I would leave it. By the time I got home it was all cleaned up. Then I would give maybe a cube of blackworms, or brine shrimp, later a cube of tubifex worms then later maybe more beefheart flake or bloodworms. Then before lights out I would vacuum the tank or on alternate days do my 50 - 70% water change. Now they seem to be disinterested in food. They do eat some, but very little and aren't pooping very much either. As these guys had gotten off to a bad start I had treated the tank with API General Cure(all that is available locally for internal parasites), but there has been no improvement in appetite since then. Getting to the point where I will just keep up with wc and see what happens. During treatment I had raised the tank temp to 89 degrees and am now in the process of gradually reducing it back to normal levels. Externally, as far as I can see, they appear fine. I think the color of one fish may be fading a bit, its a gold colored discus

Second Hand Pat

04-19-2015, 08:44 AM

Noreen, I suggest you start a new thread in the Emergency-Room (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?34-Emergency-Room) section of the forum and fill out this questionnaire Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete). If you can include pictures that would be helpful.
Pat

Cullymoto

04-19-2015, 09:05 AM

By no means am I considered expert, but I do wonder why many keep discus in such high temperatures?
I keep my kids at 78.6F (26c)
I once had a bad digital thermometer, it was reading lower than actual. I had brought the temp up to approximately 30c over the course of a few weeks while the thermometer was failing. My fish all went off food, showed dull color and stress bars.
Eventually my dumbass figured out the problem and I brought the temp back down, everyone came back to normal.
I thought I had a disease or bigger problem going on... They were too warm is all...
My two cents

Second Hand Pat

04-19-2015, 09:08 AM

nevertooold

04-23-2015, 11:28 PM

I have the temp in my tank back down to 82 degrees F and the fish all seem to be a lot happier. The fish I was most concerned about it now swimming with the rest and color is looking much better. So fingers crossed that everything will go okay from now on. For any beginners that might be reading this, listen to all the advice given here, especially about bare bottom tanks. I used sand and it is a pain in the ***! Probably the best is bare bottom, driftwood and fake plants in pots that can be moved around during water changes. I also have some thumbnail size rocks sprinkled sparingly on the bottom that are easily moved around with the syphon. Experience is a great teacher. ;)

Mrs. J

04-23-2015, 11:41 PM

Yes it is....I just moved mine to their new tank and to a bare bottom tank....so much easier to clean and keep up;. I can vacuum with the Eheim vac and siphon so much easier....Still have a white bottom, used foam core board on the underside of the tank. I have artificial plants that I can easily move when I clean. You are so right, I really should have listened earlier, but lesson learned, being older doesn't necessarily mean wiser..Lol Julia

Kyla

04-27-2015, 01:54 AM

what a read! a discus drama! everyone still eating well at 82F?

btw i just used my eheim quick vac today for the first time and i LOVE it!!! i wish i could mail it back in time to myself 10 years ago lol

nevertooold

04-29-2015, 01:03 AM

This drama I could do without. All the fish at this point don't appear to want to each much. I try lots of variety, but I don't see them eating a whole lot, and they sure aren't pooping much. Everything seems good, water changes getting done, water parameters great, fish look to be healthy, swimming normally although they appear to hang out in the darker corner of the tank. Their tank is in a corner of the living room, out of any heavy traffic (lol, just me and my husband here). Anyone know some magic words to get them eating. I just keep trying and hoping that they will start eating again. Stay tuned ;)