My discus - thoughts on what is up?

[oliverk]

Ok new to discus keeping.

At the end of October I bought 10 Discus 2.5-3" from a reputable breeder, well known on this site.

They have been growing and changing gaining color and pattern at a rapid pace if at varying rates. They love feeding time and come to the place where I feed as they see signs of feeding time.

The five largest are similar in size and now from the mouth to the base of the tail about the same length as my index finger or about or about 4".

The next three are about 75% of the largest size and the last two are 75% of that, fitting their entire body and fins in the body area of the largest fish.

In the last week or two one of the largest fish has progressively gone to one corner of the tank. Another to another corner and in general the community life seems to be changing with a little more aggression and short temperedness in the tank.

Today another of the largest fish is in the same corner as one, one of those is embracing the PVC return pipe which now has little bright red orange spots all over it.

I would be thinking of egg laying but believe it is far too early for this to be occurring, and that the fish while having grown in size have not gotten the full expected coloration but are getting progressively pretty.

Had been debating on asking about the size differential, but figured it was "normal" after reading some of the historical posts, but sigh ah well - thoughts on what's happening?

oliver

PS BTW the cory cats in the tank seem to breed regularly, although post discus introduction we see fewer of the smallest fish......

[oliverk]

Ok so it is now an hour or so since I wrote the original post - the orange spots on the pvc pipe (aquarium plumbing) are all gone.

[RogueDiscus]

Hi Oliver,
I'm not one of the site's experts, but I'm going to jump in anyway. Can you tell us more about the size of your tank and general setup, and about you water change regimen. The orange spots could very well be eggs. Your fish could be going through some normal pecking order activity, especially if a pair has formed and spawned, but another possibility is that the water conditions are not ideal and the fish appear more agitated.
Steve

[RogueDiscus]

Sounds like someone laid eggs, and they have been eaten.

[oliverk]

I test regularly and keep clean water. It sounds weird but nitrate and nitrite are always 0 but ammonia sometimes gets to .25 ppm which causes me to take water out and add new water to the system. Until very recently had been treating tap, but now am using RODI water to provide new water to the system. (When I say system realize I have a small aquaponics run of plants and a much larger than normal filtration system for the tank). I have a planted tank, that is rated at 110 gallons and at least that much in filtration and aquaponics supporting it.

In the past few days raw tap water has jumped to a ph of high 8's or 9s. (Used to be high 7's or 8s) am not happy with that but the rodi is working hard and PH is 7.6-7.8 post filtration.

[oliverk]

Ok is it a discus or the corys? I know we have corys that lay eggs we have several generations of corys starting with 6 we now have at least 20 in the tank, but as I said before we see very few if any of the smallest size corys post introduction of the discus.

[RogueDiscus]

Hey Oliver,
Good luck, but you're beyond my area of experience. Hopefully someone else will jump in for you.

[oliverk]

Hey thanks -

Anyone any thoughts on size/age of discus before they start pairing off, having eggs etc.

Anyone any thoughts on the size and size differnentials of the 10 fish? Normal? Will all achieve full size?

Other thoughts?

[Tankster]

9 months to a year is when they reach the age where you will need to have the talk about the birds and the bees.

On size difference, completely normal. - I bought mine just a month before you. Have a look - http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117393-3-Month-Update-Stendkers-Grow-Out-of-from-2-5-quot

[oliverk]

Yep that's what I thought, but they might start territory ideas a little earlier. Must be cory eggs - know we have that going on - or snail eggs I'm seeing.

[Ed13]

They started laying eggs. It sounds like they they are too young and too small, but hey, some are more eager than others. Young pairs will often eat the first clutches layed so don't worry too much. If truly a pair(sometimes two females may lay eggs), they'll more than likely eventually figure the whole process out.

I personally wouldn't pursue breeding them yet and would focus on finishing their growout. Just keep the water clean and feed them well. If you wish to add more size to them, remember that breeding comes with energy expenditure. It's harder to add size to them once they actively start breeding.

By the way they are more than likely eating the baby cories. I would not be surprised if the live food is partly to blame for triggering breeding behavior. Would not necessarily say this whole process is a bad thing though.

[DISCUS STU]

These are eggs. Sometimes they can start very early and unfortunately this fish has probably reached maturity and will not grow anymore or only slightly. The good news is that healthy fish lay eggs.

A Pigeon Blood I purchased, and subsequently returned the same week, did this at approx. 3.25" inches. Otherwise it still seemed to be a juvenile in appearance.

[oliverk]

Sigh -

My intention in setting the tank is to have the biggest prettiest fish and tank my wife and I can (and get some veggies from the filter and grey water from the tank -aquaponics).... not particularly to breed fish...... in fact when we were getting an explosion of the cories it was fun but we were hoping not to have a problem .... culling and/or placing the fish....... which now seems to have been consumed if you will by the issue of discus maturing too rapidly.....

Will we get full coloration or will the stop in growth (assuming they stop growing) also stop coloration development? While pretty they do not have full adult coloration and my we are very much looking forward to enjoying watching the continued development of the fish in size and color... just like we have enjoyed watching the development of our plants and other pets.

Is there anything that can be done to shift the energies back into growth and coloration development - other than clean water and good food?

Change in diet perhaps???? To my knowledge we are not feeding hormones. At the moment they eat a rotating mix of brine shrimp flake, beef heart flake, frozen food mix from the reputable breeder - about gone was planning to make a new mix.... cobalt flake, tetra color granuals (always soaked to prevent expansion in the stomach) my understanding this was originally developed specifically for discus, koi pellets left over from my pond keeping days (also soaked to full expansion prior to introduction into the tank) and it seems the odd juvenile cory, cory or discus eggs.

Was planning on using the koi pellets in place of the flake found in many discus food recipies.

I know some humans worry about hormones used in the development of cattle and are then consumed in milk, or meat they eat. (several of my family members insisted on only organic milk for their young families because of the worry about growth hormones being transferred in the milk and those growth hormones affecting the development of their kids) Is it possible that one of the protein sources in the fish food - especially the meat in the frozen, the beef heart flake etc have such a secondary source of hormones in them that are affecting the growth patterns of my discus? Even if such hormones are present in the meat used in creating fish food would they affect fish at all or would the hormones not affect fish because fish are so different than mammals.

I know I'm really reaching here, but if I can do something quick easy and cheaply to have my fish grow to their full potential size and color it would be a shame not to do so. The combined experience of the list certinaly knows a lot more than I do about discus growth, care and ........

[Ed13]

Don't over think it too much, just keep them well fed and in very clean water and enjoy them!
If they are healthy they will reach adult coloration even if undersized. In my opinion, having lay once does not automatically mean they stop growing completely, they may not lay again in months or ever again. Now, if they actively engaged in a breeding routine then yes, pretty much all energy will go into the breeding process.

Now, I'm not necessarily recommending this but, if it's bothering you too much and growth is your goal, you'll need two things.
First, avoid accidentally or purposely giving them breeding triggers. Do a search on the breeding section of the forum, but basically soft acidic water, lower overall temps and sudden drops in temp or ph in the water like during water changes etc. Also, I personally would avoid an environment conductive to breeding, like having breeding cones, pieces of driftwood etc., lower light, soft music, chocolate covered strawberries.....just kidding with those last two, but you get the point.

Second part, is a caloric surplus. Somewhat controversial but, feeding higher protein foods and calorie dense food (basically meaty foods) as well as higher temps to increase metabolism and increase the number of feedings will allow an increase in growth but at the cost of water quality, which in my opinion is of higher importance.

Based on your goals, my official recommendation to you is still to:
Don't over think it too much, just keep them well fed and in very clean water and enjoy them!


By the way, you have them connected to an aquaponic system? I thought about that a while back, but was scared to go forward because the fish I had the time were way too expensive!!

[DISCUS STU]

It's hard to answer this. The one that I bought that had this issue was also purchased from a reputable dealer. You may want to address this issue back to them as well.

I've been feeding beef heart and now turkey heart as well as Color Bits, etc., and this just seems to be an anomaly. Usually if they're in breeding condition then they will have reached the peak of their color. Really this just happens once in a while.

In regard to Koi pellets. How much protein is in this feed? Usually Discus require protein for their requirements. I believe Koi pellets are on the lower side. This issue isn't protein content, it's this particular fish. Not all internet sellers are the same. The 'Phishy one is just that and I had one really bad experience with this one. Inferior fish, C grade quality.

Hang in there. There's a learning curve with keeping this higher maintenance fish, Discus.

Bought this one as a rescue as was hoping to get more growth out of her but I think she's only about 4"-4.25". I say "her" because she's also laid eggs

84524

[oliverk]

Thanks all, good koi food is normally a little lower in protein than discus being 31 to 42 Where discus tend a little higher 35-50 but it seems there is a good deal of overlap. I don't recall exactly what this food is but I'm sure I would have bought higher end because smaller koi growing like smaller discus like higher levels of protein.... By the way I never feed the koi food alone, I feed it in combination with the tetra granuals about 30%koi food 70% tetra granuals mix just because of this reason and both need a pre soak. Also I do not use the Koi tetra mix every time the soak granuals come around as an option, more like every other time.

I think that ground koi pellets as a substitute in a beefheart/liver/beef/shrimp/spinach/paprika/fish oil/vitamin/koi pellet ground instead of flake fish food mix make into paste roll and freeze that many of the food formulas seem to be would be fine and a good way to use up over time the 30-50lbs of koi food I have on hand left from my pond keeping days (I've had fish salt aquariums or a koi pond (18yrs) much of my adult life but these are my first discus.