well water and water softeners

[limige]

well, its a deep subject, I know...
when I raised discus before I always had fantastic city water, just age, degass heat and it was ready for fish.

my new house up north is a well. it has a softener which I didn't think would be an issue since it was nice soft water for the fish...but the new pair isn't feeling safe and comfy yet. got me back to the water. after doing some digging I see many ppl suggest pulling straight from the well. I can do that but I have some plumbing to do.

so, my water is pretty decent but sooner or later i'm going to have to buy an RO unit. is a booster pump needed? an addional bladder needed?

who's everyone buying from these days?

as far as I know the well water is pretty decent maybe 150-175 tds and just has a slight off taste for drinking. even in my shower I notice a white residue that forms. i'm not sure if its high calcium or lime or what.

so help me out here. what do I need to know about wells, discus, and RO's.

I haven't seen ryan on the board these days, he used to be the man

[Keith Perkins]

IME as long as you're using water through a home water softener your discus will never be happy. I sourced all my water through mine for quite some time and after a year or so all my fish quite spawning. Not until I bypassed the water softener did any of them start spawning again, and most never did even though they were prime spawning age. I was then, and still am filtering the heck out of my water but that didn't make any difference. Do some plumbing.

I purchased a typhoon-iii-extreme-150 from Air, Water, and Ice http://theh2oguru.com/ and am very happy with it. You can find similar cheaper on e-bay etc., but they were very helpful and convenient. The unit operates best with 77 degree water @ 65 psi. My city water pressure is about 60 and needless to say nowhere near 77 degrees, especially this time of year. I'm still happy with the output, so you may very well not need a booster pump depending what your water pressure is. I don't need anywhere near 150 gallons of RO a day, but having this unit with reduced output due to water temp easily compensates to get me what I do need.

[limige]

I did the same. Airwaterice is where I always bought my stuff from. Have a five stage on the way. Was going to plumb today but ended up splitting and stacking wood all day. I may use the lines from the wood burner to preheat the water heading to the ro. Pressure is set at 60 psi.
Funny thing is the angels have been plenty happy.

[limige]

Btw thanks for taking the time to respond.

Apparently eggs aren't too viable is softened water. That batch is toast.

Found out it wont be too difficult. My garden hose outlets outside all bypass the softener. So im filling barrels now.

Got an ro on the way too so I can lower the tds.

[Keith Perkins]

No problem. My fishes health declined very very slowly, the lack of spawning was my first clue. Never got THAT bad, just wasn't right.

Outside water faucets are almost always fresh water. No self respecting plumber would have you spending money using soft water to water your flowers and veggies. I should have thought to suggest looking at that.

[nc0gnet0]

Keith,

You would be amazed at the increased efficiency, longer membrane life, and better output if you add a booster pump. Like Al rebuilds generators, I have started doing the same with these pumps that I typically source off of ebay. PM me if you want more details.

-Rick

[Keith Perkins]

At what TDS do you change membranes Rick?

[nc0gnet0]

At what TDS do you change membranes Rick?

LOL,

That's a dam good question Keith, and my answer, for my needs, may not fit your needs. :)

Let me explain:

My RO system is capable of somewhere around 800-1000 gallons of day. It's a bit of a cobble job I have put together myself after using some of the smaller 150 gallon a day units like you know employ. It actually employs 3 separate 400 gallon day membranes I purchased here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reverse-Osmosis-Big-Flow-Commercial-RO-Membrane-300-GPD-MC3-/300652211917?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460044aecd

And two of the same membranes in the 200 gpd version.

These membranes take a larger housing-do not get them expecting to use as drop in replacements for your current housing.

So, with this in mind, I let my membranes go up to 50-80 ppm TDS before replacing, but I always have one or two putting out <20 ppm td water for my breeding tanks. The other membranes I just employ making water for all my grow out or non breeding community tanks.

Membranes fail due to scaling. This is the build up of mineral deposits across the membrane itself. Ideally, the way membranes work is you have constant sufficient water pressure across the membrane, this is maintained both by the inline water pressure and the flow restrictor. In the ideal scenario, only pure water can pass through the membrane, and the mineral deposits are swept away out the waste water output. If you were to take the waste water line and plug it, you would force all the water through the membrane and would have 0 waste water. Unfortunately, the membrane would fail in matter of minutes and become clogged.

In low pressure situations, product water is reduced because of two factors. One, there is not enough pressure to force the pure water though the membrane , and two, the incoming pressure does not sufficiently clean the membrane surface. This will result in premature scaling and significantly reduce membrane life. Think of a power washer washing your driveway. With little pressure it Is not much more useful than a garden hose blasting off rust stains on your driveway. But with enough pressure, you can blast them stains right away. So when you add a booster pump you are addressing both of these two issues.

-Rick

[Tankster]

Hopefully you don't mind me jumping in here - I am on a community well which is in the middle of farm country - horses, cattle, and lots of corn. We get plenty of runoff but testing reports say all contaminants fall within acceptable ranges. Being that I am somewhat suspect, I wanted to install one of these 5 stage 150gpd RO units. The problem is, I am scared of the whole remin, waste-water, booster pump, etc. aspects of the systems.
How complicated is it to install a systems like this? I have basic plumbing skills (I can sweat /solder pipe connections) but the booster pump and remin process are foreign to me.

They whole system actually kind of scares me. How do you set this up? Anyone have pictures or diagrams of their set ups? Additionally I am on septic so I prefer the waste-water not go into my septic system.

Any thoughts?


*Caveat - I know what I have now, works just fine but I will eventually want to breed and am also interested to see if there is any noticeable difference in grow-out on my second batch of Stendkers (March/April 2015 start).

[nc0gnet0]

Hopefully you don't mind me jumping in here - I am on a community well which is in the middle of farm country - horses, cattle, and lots of corn. We get plenty of runoff but testing reports say all contaminants fall within acceptable ranges. Being that I am somewhat suspect,

The majority of these contaminates could be addressed by a good block carbon and sediment filter alone:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Big-Blue-20-Wate-Filter-Housing-1-NPT-HB28BX2-/120718798261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1b66adb5

[Tankster]

The majority of these contaminates could be addressed by a good block carbon and sediment filter alone:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Big-Blue-20-Wate-Filter-Housing-1-NPT-HB28BX2-/120718798261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1b66adb5

Thanks Rick!

[nc0gnet0]

The problem is, I am scared of the whole remin, waste-water, booster pump, etc. aspects of the systems.
How complicated is it to install a systems like this? I have basic plumbing skills (I can sweat /solder pipe connections) but the booster pump and remin process are foreign to me.

They are really simple in nature, and once you understand how they work, a piece of cake. Seldom do you need to do any soldering are plumbing, and if you do, it would only be at the point in which you draw your feed water to the system from. Other than that you are using simple 1/4 or 3/8" plastic tubing and push connect fittings, like these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-REVERSE-OSMOSIS-RO-DI-AQUARIUM-50-FEET-TUBE-TUBING-blue-T14B-/300649293606?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4600182726

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-Quick-Connect-1-4-Ro-water-Filter-Fitting-Male-Elbow-Reverse-Osmosis-/251316687936?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a83a45440

[nc0gnet0]

The easiest way to get water to your ro unit is from a garden hose spicket.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quality-Garden-hose-fitting-to-feed-RO-DI-filter-system-or-Deion-/111478053145?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f49c1919

You twist it on and then connect the tubing to the opposite end by just pushing the tubing into the fitting until it clicks or seats. Then you run the tubing to the first stage, or sediment filter. from there the water goes into the carbon block, and then to the membrane. From the membrane you will have two lines coming out, one for the product. or pure water, the other is the waste water.

If you are not fortunate enough to have a garden hose spicket in the vicinity, you can always use a saddle valve:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-Drain-Saddle-Valve-Clamp-Quick-Connect-RO-System-Water-Filter-/111566597730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19f9e32e62

[Keith Perkins]

I'm still under 20 with the original 4 year old membrane, but I wonder how many $s I could save on water.

[nc0gnet0]

I'm still under 20 with the original 4 year old membrane, but I wonder how many $s I could save on water.

That's very good, membrane life will depend a lot on how much cr@p you got in your water and how long each day you run it as well.

[limige]

What type of pumps are these booster pumps? How are you rebuilding them just replacing brushes or rewinding the armature?
Are they impeller jet or what? How high of psi do they push it?

Do you think I should do anything special like an additional bladder to go easy on the well pump? She's kinda old already.

I wont be using much RO ill probably do 50/50 which is going to be around 15 gal a day.

[limige]

Well I got some straight well water in the tank last night they look better already. Going to hit them again tonight. Still waiting on the RO but thats no biggie

Looking forward to seeing something hatch soon!

[limige]

They are looking happier and happier every day!

[Keith Perkins]

They are looking happier and happier every day!

Glad to hear it, I'm afraid it took me too long to get mine off the home water softener water.


I'm still under 20 with the original 4 year old membrane, but I wonder how many $s I could save on water.

It's been a while since I checked this, so I thought since I threw the under 20 number after 4 years out there it was time to check it. Actually came in just under 10. :)

[limige]

They are due to lay eggs any day now so im anxious to see if I have better results. I find it curious the softened water destroyed the eggs. Not sure if it cured them or what. Whole batch went white and was fungusing after two days.

[Northwoods Discus]

I am pretty close to you. We now live in Farwell and have a cabin on Bear Lake. I have found that my discus did not do well on straight MI well water. What worked best for me was to make R/O water and then add small amounts of well water back in to get the desired hardness level for breeding or grow out. I could only add about %10 well water. Our MI water is very hard with high iron.
I did run my R/O after the softener. I felt the softened water did not clog my filters as fast. I also ran an Iron removal in front of the softener. In a softener the Ca is replaced with Na. The Na is then removed by the R/O membrane. I used a non softened tap I plumbed in the fishroom.
I did not run a pump but it would have improved the performance. I increased the pressure in my well but only to about 45psi. Our city water at the clinic in Mount Pleasant runs about 65psi.
I am going to need to do this all again as we are building a new home now, so naturally I'll need to rebuild the fishroom.

[limige]

Thanks for the input. Do you have discus now?

Im lucky our well water is great I just didnt expect the softener to be an issue. My RO arrived today. I will probably mix 50/50

[Northwoods Discus]

I have discus in a 150 gal in the clinic. I sold all the discus I had at home due to the move. I plan on getting tanks up and running once we officially move in. Good luck with new set up. R/O is pretty easy to deal with with the "push in" fittings of the 1/4 inch plastic.

[nc0gnet0]

What type of pumps are these booster pumps? How are you rebuilding them just replacing brushes or rewinding the armature?
Are they impeller jet or what? How high of psi do they push it?

Do you think I should do anything special like an additional bladder to go easy on the well pump? She's kinda old already.

I wont be using much RO ill probably do 50/50 which is going to be around 15 gal a day.


Mainly just the motor brushes. The pumps are diaphragm pumps with 4 separate diaphragms. As for the bladder in your well, that is out of my range of knowledge.....how much pressure the pumps will produce depend largely on your intake pressure and which model pump you get.

[limige]

yeah, I've dealt with R/O before, just with city water. this well water stuff is fairly new to me.

so apparently the softener helps the RO system out, so I can plumb that in after the softener. but I need to raise the temp since the ground is around 50 degrees the water probably is too. so my game plan is to wrap the 1/4" line around my hot water lines from my wood stove to preheat the water coming into the RO system. I may have to adjust the number of wraps to adjust temp. picked up a square 50 gallon trash can to hold water, got the float valve from air/water/ice.

Josie suggested I let them be for awhile in the straight well water and see how things go. the well is 170-177 tds and taste pretty good, just a little off.

I will wait and see how things work and what pressure my water system will hold with the RO going and see from there.
still waiting for eggs to go down. they laid last week Friday, due any time

[jbecklin]

I will be installing a water softner soon. Is the first water change going to shock the discus being that they are used to the harder water right now?

[Tankster]

I will be installing a water softner soon. Is the first water change going to shock the discus being that they are used to the harder water right now?

I would recommend having a spigot installed in line just before the softener. Pull your aquarium water from there. Everyone I have run into said their fish were NOT happy with softened water.

[limige]

mine didn't like it. angels seemed fine discus were skittish

[nc0gnet0]

I would recommend having a spigot installed in line just before the softener. Pull your aquarium water from there. Everyone I have run into said their fish were NOT happy with softened water.


RO filters do a better job with water after the softener, but draw your non RO water before the softener.

[jbecklin]

Really? Interesting. But I know discus need RO for breeding so im confused now. Not that I will be breeding anytime soon but if they prefer the RO.... Do you happen to know what is too hard for them? I dont have a number yet on this water where im living but its pretty hard.

[Tankster]

Really? Interesting. But I know discus need RO for breeding so im confused now. Not that I will be breeding anytime soon but if they prefer the RO.... Do you happen to know what is too hard for them? I dont have a number yet on this water where im living but its pretty hard.

I think you might be confusing naturally soft water with conditioned soft water. You can artificially reduce the hardness but you are adding some things the fishies don't like. If you run the softened water through RO, as Rick says, sounds like there won't be a problem as long as you remin before water goes in the tank.

From a Wiki :
Ion-exchange resin devices
Conventional water-softening appliances intended for household use depend on an ion-exchange resin in which "hardness ions" - mainly Ca2+ and Mg2+ - are exchanged for sodium ions.[4] As described by NSF/ANSI Standard 44,[5] ion exchange devices reduce the hardness by replacing magnesium and calcium (Mg2+ and Ca2+) with sodium or potassium ions (Na+ and K+)."

If you are not planning on breeding, there is no reason to soften your water. If you do plan on breeding, you might consider only using your softened / RO water for the breeder tank only.

[Northwoods Discus]

Water softeners work by removing calcium from the water but it has to replace the calcium with sodium (salt). Some work with potassium but way more expensive. The harder the water (high Ca) the more sodium it uses to replace the calcium. So softened water has a higher sodium content. There can be other minerals involved such as iron, magnesium etc.
R/O unit after the softener will remove the sodium. So you can run the R/O unit after the softener to reduce wear on the R/O membrane. But as Rick stated you should draw the water you are going to mix with the R/O water from a non softened line to avoid the high sodium.

[jbecklin]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[nc0gnet0]

One last thing, many users use water softener salt with rust inhibitor additives, these are very bad for your fish.

[limige]

Ok guys. Fish are way happier. Last spawn went down and many were eaten on the first night. Only half dozen eggs remained. On day three those were gonna as well.

Angels put down eggs next and I immediately screened them. Now I didnt see them lay so I can't be certain the male did his job but on day two they all went white.

Previous spawns of both the discus and angels went white when I confirmed both had gone through the motions. I assumed the softened water was to blame....could still be. Theory being the fish absorbed the water and eggs may have been ruined before they were even laid

[limige]

So do you think they softened water had anything to do with it or is it just too much wayer flow or something

[Northwoods Discus]

Are the pairs proven? Did you measure the TDS of the water. Sounds like the fish are happier so the water must be more to there liking. You need the TDS around 50-70 ppm. If the water is too hard the egg shells will be hard and sperm may not penetrate.

[limige]

pairs are both proven, TDS is at 175. i'm setup with an RO so if that's the answer no problem but i'm just wondering if its lingering problems from the softened water or if I should start mixing

[limige]

for instance the angels had a viable spawn in 550 tds water where I used to live...

[Northwoods Discus]

I don't think the softened water would cause lingering problems. I don't know about angel breeding so maybe someone else can help you there. I would start mixing the R/O water to get your tds down around that 50-70 mark for the discus. It could be a fungal issue. You may try treatment with methylene blue right after spawning is done. It has helped me with ram spawns and I used it with discus also. You shouldn't need it but sometimes it helps.

[limige]

that's what I was thinking too, just wanted to bounce it off the board. it may not be the tds directly rather what makes up the tds.
I will change water tonight and get some RO mixed in for tomorrow, i'll start dropping it progressively this week.

if its tds affecting the eggs then I should see a direct improvement next spawn.

i'll need to pickup some meth blue, it's been awhile.

[nc0gnet0]

Are the pairs proven? Did you measure the TDS of the water. Sounds like the fish are happier so the water must be more to there liking. You need the TDS around 50-70 ppm. If the water is too hard the egg shells will be hard and sperm may not penetrate.
I don't think that is quite what happens, with the possible exception of extreme hard water situations. I think the eggs get fertilized, but then over time the egg shells calcify, oxygen transfer decreases, and the embryo suffocates, I have pulled eggs in which the spawn was in high tds water after two hours, placed them with fosters in a low tds tank, and have had nearly 100% hatches. I do believe it is the calcium content that is responsible for spawn success.

=Rick

[limige]

thanks rick, I do believe we have high calcium in our area, could be the reason

[jbecklin]

Does anyone use a product called discus essentials? If so, why would someone be using it or why should they not need to?

[dagreek]

Anyone tried using potassium chloride instead of sodium chloride in their water softener systems and gotten better results?

Thanks

[limige]

found this in the achives
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/archive/index.php/t-92780.html

I would start a new post specifically labeled
potassium chloride softened water ok for discus?

you may get better responses