gill flukes treatment for fry

[fisher]

pp is a good treatment for gill flukes for adults and fry .............. what is the dosage require for fry .....and what age can I start treatment .

[rdiscus]

Don't think it's good treatment for fry ...

[DonMD]

Praziquantel might be a safer bet, it's very easy to dose.

[nc0gnet0]

What makes you so sure your fry have gill flukes?

[fisher]

flukes builds a resistant to most drugs including prazi ........................ but pp and formalin and formalin malachite green mixture and acriflavin can not build resistance against ............... with short or long baths make a Difference ................... for shore eggs is resistance . but dose for fry is a paradox .... :confused::confused::mad:

[fisher]

I took a sample from dead fry gill under a microscope

[John_Nicholson]

Cull the fry, Clean up the parents, and start again. You will be miles ahead in the long run.

-john

[Bill63SG]

Cull the fry, Clean up the parents, and start again. You will be miles ahead in the long run.

-john

What John said.I had this happen to a batch of RSG's and rick talked me thru it.Had a spawn of about 150 and when I was done ended up with around 30 after about a week of twice daily water changes.I chalked it up to a learning experience.

[fisher]

Cull the fry, Clean up the parents, and start again. You will be miles ahead in the long run.

-john

for shore discus pair will not get rid from flukes 100% ...... even we do 3 treatment pp or formalin ........... extra .......all we can do reduce gill flukes for minimum ................ if we success to do that with fry what the problem !

[John_Nicholson]

If you can't get your pairs clean then you should not be trying to raise discus. Any meds you put in the water will have side affects on the fish. If your change water is coming in with flukes then you will need to clean it up before using it.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

for shore discus pair will not get rid from flukes 100% ...... even we do 3 treatment pp or formalin ........... extra .......all we can do reduce gill flukes for minimum ................ if we success to do that with fry what the problem !

I guess the problem with this statement, if you accept it, is that your saying that any fry or young juvenile discus you sell will have some flukes?

I am not sure I can accept that......


-Rick

[brewmaster15]

Medicating fry is pretty hard them...I've tried in the past and they never do as well as un-medicated fry. Theres a perception out there that all discus have flukes...and I don't subscribe to it. I think its more accurate to say all discus can carry them, and can easily be infected by them. Often why treatments are ineffective is they don't go long enough or at the right dose, and more likely then not, the Hobbyist gets they "i wanna a new fish" itch and they add discus or non-discus that have flukes, in effect undoing all they work they had done. Its why Flukes are called the Gift that keeps on giving.

I always assume discus I get have flukes for the above reason.. but I don't believe all discus have flukes inherently.

al

[fisher]

not even one ............ adult or fry not infected with gill flukes .... sample under microscope proven that fact ......... get ride 100% with medication is so difficult and complected .......................... i thought all we do in clean pair is reduce flukes and cut Life cycle . false or true

[brewmaster15]

Not sure if theres a language barrier here...Im not saying that medications are more effective than "but pp and formalin and formalin malachite green mixture and acriflavin can not build resistance against". I AGREE with you on the resistence part...its far less likely to occur when using dyes and oxidizers than medications. Just that I think you can erradicate flukes in your stock.
hth,
al

[fisher]

Not sure if theres a language barrier here...Im not saying that medications are more effective than "but pp and formalin and formalin malachite green mixture and acriflavin can not build resistance against". I AGREE with you on the resistence part...its far less likely to occur when using dyes and oxidizers than medications. Just that I think you can erradicate flukes in your stock.
hth,
al

yes i agree with you my language is so bad ........ thanks for your great Information and valuable advice .

[fisher]

i will documented attempts to treat my fry ............. fry in 10 day free swimming ... add pp dose 2 ppm ... water changing 100% after 2 hours and add salt ........... with changing water 50% with 3 time a day .

[fisher]

fry with foster pair day 12 ............................. pp treatment

http://youtu.be/yLdI8wMyaIE

[fisher]

2 day after treatment

http://youtu.be/ZK9BU464HtA

[fisher]

fry 3 week feeding
http://youtu.be/x9elveSN3cs bh .................... after 3 pp treatment

[SNap0283]

What dosage did you use? Hard to tell in the video but they look pretty good to me.

[nc0gnet0]

What dosage did you use? Hard to tell in the video but they look pretty good to me.


They do look good, but it appears that there is significantly less of them...........

[John_Nicholson]

It is not that you can't treat fry. The question is if it is the right thing to do. Everything you do to fry has an affect on their long term growth and health. It is far better to clean up your pairs so that the fry do not need treatment.

-john

[mollyb]

I have found that UV sterilizer running in/on the tank with fry really helps the survival rate, almost stopping fry death at this stage. I don't know if it actually 'cleans up' the fry, but I think it keeps the paracyte population to sub lethal numbers. BTW - how do you recommend 'cleaning up' the parents/stock? I would love to accomplish this.

[fisher]

one month fry...... average 1 inch ........... i did 3 treatment with pp dosage 2 ppm ...... 18 w uv lump in 100 liter tank......... feeding beef heart 3 time a day .
http://youtu.be/W4oQXtY_tqk

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Thanks for sharing.

[fisher]

5 week85339853408534185342

[alcastro]

Great job, how did you make your stock solution
AL

[fisher]

stock solution 20 g pp in 1 liter ro water ................. 2 drop per liter ..... first dose 1 to 2 hour second and third 4 hour........ 3 day between each treatment .

[fisher]

Close word ... Must be turn off uv lumb in pp path ......... Treat fry after 10 day from free swimming or if you see any sign of disease becuase if fry is havy infected with flukes it will be hard to treat .

[fisher]

Close word ... Must be turn off uv lumb in pp path ......... Treat fry after 10 day from free swimming or if you see any sign of disease becuase if fry is havy infected with flukes it will be hard to treat .

[nc0gnet0]

I know your convinced this was flukes, but in my experience everything you described is much more likely to be a protozoan infection.

[brewmaster15]

I have to add some comments to this thread. Potassium Permanganate can be a very useful chemical when used correctly for the right things. It can also easily kill your fish. You need to be mindful of many factors like Organic loads, water conditioning chemicals etc all can interact with PP. Dosage and duration are important.

I've used it many times and many others do as well. I have saved fish and I killed fish with it, and anyone that tells you they haven't killed fish by accident with it probably blocked the memory because its not something we like to remember, or they used so little it probably couldn't cure anything.

But what is Potassium Permanganate.? Its not a medicine. Its a chemical oxidizer. It literally destroys organics and other things.. What are Organics? Bacteria, virus, protozoans, worms,flukes etc are all organic which is great right? Sure, but the fishes Gills are also. They are the site of most gas exchange and much other uptake into the fish. They are sensitive to irritants which is why they are irritated by flukes and parasites feeding on them .. They are also irritated by chemical burns from oxidizers. Theres also alot of work that shows that these oxidizers like PP can cause long term damage... we've seen many adult discus here with thickened protruding gills..no proof but I bet its from too much PP as a frys and juveniles. Somewhere on this forum we had a discussion once and there were pictures of gill filaments and deformities in them from chemical oxidizers called Clubbed Lamellae. I can't find that one now, but see this...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12639-014-0625-1



Also, the histological investigation showed a range of histopathological alternations in gills tissue including lamellar necrosis, hyperplasia, lamellar adhesion, haemorrhage, clubbing of gill lamellae. The severity of these alternations increased with increasing of the doses of the copper sulfate and potassium permanganate. In this regard, the highest histological damages were observed in 15 mg/l copper sulfate and 5 mg/l potassium permanganate respectively. Our results showed that low dosage of potassium permanganate has best effect on reducing of bacterial load of skin with lowest adverse effects on gill tissue.

translated into simple english.. PP damages gills... so use it wisely and I wouldn't recommend it on fry, Their gills are developing rapidly and any damage is sure to have long term consequences.

al

[fisher]

I know your convinced this was flukes, but in my experience everything you described is much more likely to be a protozoan infection.

i took a simple under microscope from dead fish gill .

[fisher]

I have to add some comments to this thread. Potassium Permanganate can be a very useful chemical when used correctly for the right things. It can also easily kill your fish. You need to be mindful of many factors like Organic loads, water conditioning chemicals etc all can interact with PP. Dosage and duration are important.

I've used it many times and many others do as well. I have saved fish and I killed fish with it, and anyone that tells you they haven't killed fish by accident with it probably blocked the memory because its not something we like to remember, or they used so little it probably couldn't cure anything.

But what is Potassium Permanganate.? Its not a medicine. Its a chemical oxidizer. It literally destroys organics and other things.. What are Organics? Bacteria, virus, protozoans, worms,flukes etc are all organic which is great right? Sure, but the fishes Gills are also. They are the site of most gas exchange and much other uptake into the fish. They are sensitive to irritants which is why they are irritated by flukes and parasites feeding on them .. They are also irritated by chemical burns from oxidizers. Theres also alot of work that shows that these oxidizers like PP can cause long term damage... we've seen many adult discus here with thickened protruding gills..no proof but I bet its from too much PP as a frys and juveniles. Somewhere on this forum we had a discussion once and there were pictures of gill filaments and deformities in them from chemical oxidizers called Clubbed Lamellae. I can't find that one now, but see this...

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12639-014-0625-1

translated into simple english.. PP damages gills... so use it wisely and I wouldn't recommend it on fry, Their gills are developing rapidly and any damage is sure to have long term consequences.

al
thanks for greet information . i used to do 100% water change with 50 ppm before treatment under all time absorption ........ pp like other treatment has side effect . but until now its a magical treatment with few side effects . one of the Famous discus breeder told to me that he add pp to his fry weekly from 10 day after swimming until reach 2 month ....... and he never have a problem with fry or adult that raising from these fry .

[nc0gnet0]

i used to do 100% water change with 50 ppm before treatment under all time absorption

50 ppm?

[fisher]

50 ppm?

water is 50 ppm not pp

[Northwoods Discus]

The dissolved solids in the water? Like TDS? You had us very confused with your terminology.

[fisher]

40 day fry 855028550385504

[fisher]

piranha fry 40 day
http://youtu.be/HKJQmxOBCwk

[fisher]

2 month 8626386264862658626686267862688626986270

[fisher]

2 month 862718627286273862748627586276

[MadMatt]

50ppm of Potasium permanganate would wipe everything out in the tank 100% in about ⅛ of a second, I don't think a Discus would get a second breath in it, before its gills would be so burnt it would absorb oxygen anymore, anyways not to beat anyone up, because I didn't know either till I read some articles regarding pp treatment with Kio. 4-5ppm can be lethal at any length, I believe when the water is pink your probably close to 1-2ppm, I believe dark purple water from pp would be about 4-5ppm, which is in the deadly zone for sure. I've seen wholesalers giving kio a bath in purple pp water for about 10-15 seconds as they wipe the fish down with gloves on.

[fisher]

92585 9258692587 10 month old

[fisher]

https://youtu.be/wPaJ12qe3C0