Not really sure if I have a problem or not yet.

[Jason F]

This morning I didn't notice anything wrong with my discus however around noon when I went to feed them I noticed something odd. A few of them have their fins are not as erect as usual and some appear to have a white film over their eyes, hard to tell if the film is on their bodies as well. They all still eat and no one is hiding or acting ill in any way, they all still greet me at the front of the tank like usual. Should I be concerned at this point?

[Keith Perkins]

It certainly bears watching. Meanwhile I would fill out the Questionnaire located at the top of this section. Those looking to help could really use the information.

[Jason F]

I didn't notice this, thanks for letting me know.

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

I noticed this around noon today when after I got back from school while I was feeding.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

A few of my discus appear to have a cloudiness over the eyes and fins clamped slightly. Everything else appears normal.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Haven't tried anything yet.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

The tank is a 75g. At the moment I have 12 discus ranging between 2.5 and 4.5 inches. I know this is a little over stocked by the 10g rule however I've read a few of the big guys on here say that rule is a safety for those who don't do proper maintenance, and as you can tell from my w/c regimen on the next question I do proper maintenance.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

90% w/c done every night with the occasional 50% around mid day.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

The tank has been running with discus in it for 6 months. There were two additional months before that when I had smaller fish in the tank. The tank had pool filter sand in it up until a month ago when I removed it all and it's been bare bottom since.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

My water is aged in 2 44g brute trash cans. Not sure how much or if the ph swings, I've just aged from the beginning.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 83

- ph 7.8

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 0

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- municipal water - all filtered through a 5 micron sediment filter and two carbon blocks (5 and 0.6 microns).

- RO water - use to use RO but now I have the membrane bypassed and just using the filter elements mentioned above.

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

I did get 4 new fish from Kenny almost a week ago.

10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

I would try to get pics however I don't think I have a camera that's going to be able to really pick up the slight cloudiness of their eyes.

[Jason F]

Also I have a bottle of Seachem Paraguard that I bought just in case something happened I would have something on hand. I've never used it but I've heard good things. Would this be a good scenario for me to try it out? I don't want to medicate if I don't have to but if I do need to I would like to start it asap.

[Jason F]

I'm doing a w/c right now and looking down the side of one of the fish I can see what I would assume to be excessive slim on kind of floating right off the skin.

[brewmaster15]

Jason,

Did you quarantine the new fish? How long did you have the previous fish and where were they from? How do each group look , are they all affected? Sounds like the start of a bacterial issue, but could also be a parasite like velvet starting. Often times the stress of introducing new stock triggers a breakdown of the immune system..kind of like an overload...sometimes it resolves it self, sometimes not and you need to intervene.

If you could post pics, it will help. Try to take a few from an angle and without flash...bump up the camera's ISO to compensate there. If you can see the patches, the camera will with out flash.

hth,
al

[Jason F]

I did not quarantine the new fish as I do not have a spare tank right now for use as a quarantine tank and I know Kenny quarantines them before they leave. There appears to be no real change today, they still have what I would say to be excessive slim coming off them but. I just fed them and they are all eating so that isn't a problem. Right now I need to get the kids ready for school then I need to head to the deer facility where I work Tuesday mornings. I should have about a hour and a half between the deer and my first class though so I'll try to get some pics posted then.

Thanks!

[Jason F]

So of course now that I have a few minutes to take pictures none of them have what looks like the excessive slime coat coming off them. You can hopefully see the slightly cloudy eyes though which along with the clamped fins was the first thing I noticed. All of the PB's I got from a local seller when they were around an inch to an inch and a half, now they are around 3.5 to 4 inches.

http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/fontainejr/IMG_2097_zpsudg5hfla.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/fontainejr/media/IMG_2097_zpsudg5hfla.jpg.html)
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/fontainejr/IMG_2098_zpsmruqmdqe.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/fontainejr/media/IMG_2098_zpsmruqmdqe.jpg.html)
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/fontainejr/IMG_2099_zpsfoaouj0p.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/fontainejr/media/IMG_2099_zpsfoaouj0p.jpg.html)
http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a505/fontainejr/IMG_2100_zpsfymy3hdl.jpg (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/fontainejr/media/IMG_2100_zpsfymy3hdl.jpg.html)

[brewmaster15]

I can see what you mean from the pics. Have you ever used PP? or Formalin Malachite green..aka quick cure?

al

[Jason F]

Never used either one. I saw something about PP on here yesterday when I was looking through threads. Is this stuff that can be bought at any most pet stores or will I need to order it? Only thing I have on hand in Seachem Paraguard.

[brewmaster15]

You may find Quickcure at a LFS under another name.. its Formalin+ malachite Green. The PP is usually bought on line.. Paraguard would be a possible substitute for the quick cure. It would be worth trying it if you have it on hand, and then follow up with Furan 2.

You definetly do have a problem brewing there.

al

[Keith Perkins]

If you want to go the PP route, I got a lot of it and could probably get some out to you in tomorrow's mail.

[Jason F]

You may find Quickcure at a LFS under another name.. its Formalin+ malachite Green. The PP is usually bought on line.. Paraguard would be a possible substitute for the quick cure. It would be worth trying it if you have it on hand, and then follow up with Furan 2.

You definetly do have a problem brewing there.

al

So should I start dosing the Paraguard now? If so how long should I use it before using the Furan 2? Also I did some reading on the PP (Potassium Permanganate correct?) and it sounds like some really serious stuff and that it should be used in last case scenarios. Is this correct? If so should I wait to see if the Paraguard and Furan 2 work?

[nc0gnet0]

Quick cure is getting harder and harder to find...not made anymore. Many places still might have some new-old stock. You can get substitutes (any fm&g product would do) online, or, you can go with acriflavin. If you were to call Kenny, this is what he might recommend. What you are going through is typical, this is why you should ALWAYS Qt your fish, regardless of the source.

What is going on here is one batch of fish has been exposed to, as well as have developed an immunity too, some sort of pathogen. The other batch has not. Separately, both batches of fish will appear healthy, but when combined, all heck breaks loose.

[brewmaster15]

Quick cure is getting harder and harder to find...not made anymore. Many places still might have some new-old stock. You can get substitutes (any fm&g product would do) online, or, you can go with acriflavin. If you were to call Kenny, this is what he might recommend. What you are going through is typical, this is why you should ALWAYS Qt your fish, regardless of the source.

What is going on here is one batch of fish has been exposed to, as well as have developed an immunity too, some sort of pathogen. The other batch has not. Separately, both batches of fish will appear healthy, but when combined, all heck breaks loose.
agree!

[Jason F]

I just went to the local pet shop and I found the Furan-2 but not anything named Quick Cure or anything with Formalin+ malachite Green in it. So I guess I'll start dosing the Paraguard right now for a day or two then use the Furan-2 after that as mentioned above. The Paraguard says it's safe for filters however the Furan-2 says to remove filter media. I haven't used meds for a tank in quite a while and I remember having to remove carbon from the filter, is that what they're talking about or do I need to remove everything like the bio media and the sponge?
Also, don't take this as me arguing the whole quarantining process but if I had done that like you said both groups by themselves would appear to be healthy so after a certain time I would've introduced the new fish and this most likely still would've happened right? So how would quarantining have helped in this situation. Again I'm not trying to argue with it, just trying to learn.

Thanks!

[nc0gnet0]

Also, don't take this as me arguing the whole quarantining process but if I had done that like you said both groups by themselves would appear to be healthy so after a certain time I would've introduced the new fish and this most likely still would've happened right? So how would quarantining have helped in this situation. Again I'm not trying to argue with it, just trying to learn.


First of all freshly shipped fish have already gone under a lot of stress, which results in their immune system being compromised and they are more susceptible to pathogens as a result. Quarantine will result in letting them recover in a disease/pathogen free environment. Second, you don't understand the QT process completely, as the most important step in the process is the "hero" fish.

-Rick

[Jason F]

Well I have a lot to learn! lol
I've read a lot and never heard of the "hero" fish. What exactly is this?

[Keith Perkins]

A hero fish is the one poor bass turd that after the quarantine period gets put in with the new fish to see if everyone is compatible.

[Jason F]

By the sounds of it that's what I was guessing.

[Keith Perkins]

And as far as PP goes, IMO/E it's as safe as any medication as long as you follow the instructions and don't over dose. It also works faster than medications.

[Rudustin]

Quick cure is getting harder and harder to find...not made anymore. Many places still might have some new-old stock. You can get substitutes (any fm&g product would do) online, or, you can go with acriflavin. If you were to call Kenny, this is what he might recommend. What you are going through is typical, this is why you should ALWAYS Qt your fish, regardless of the source.

What is going on here is one batch of fish has been exposed to, as well as have developed an immunity too, some sort of pathogen. The other batch has not. Separately, both batches of fish will appear healthy, but when combined, all heck breaks loose. Sorry to hear of your discus having issues. QT is simply the best way to avoid this problem. It's a difficult lesson to learn but hopefully you can overcome the situation. Many of us have learned this lesson the hard way, me included, but this is the best place to find out how to solve the problem. Good luck and let us know what happens in a week. Best regards. Rufus

[Jason F]

Another question. Should I change my w/c schedule while they are being treated?

[Keith Perkins]

That sort of depends what you mean. I'm not sure what normal regiment is for the first medication you intend to use. For instance some medications say something like do a large WC, treat, and repeat a week later. With discus I personally would never decrease WCs to meet medication regiments, normally you at least maintain your routine and just redose to get back to the correct therapeutic levels.

If on the other hand you're asking if you should increase your WCs to improve the chances of your fishes health getting better, to that I'd say yes.

[Jason F]

So a little over 48 hours since I started medicating with Paraguard and everything is looking good. I haven't seen excessive slime since early yesterday. I still had one with cloudy eyes earlier today but didn't see anything just a moment ago, and no clamped fins anymore. With that I'm not going to say "you're healed" and stop with the treatment, figured another few days if everything still looks good then I should be able to stop medicating.

[brewmaster15]

Jason,
If you have time, for future reference, theres alot of info on QT on my blog, discustoday.info, it may help you understand the Qt procedure better. Glad the fish are doing better.

al

[Jason F]

Thanks! I'll take a look at it.

[Jason F]

So after about of medicating with Paraguard the fish are looking great! I didn't medicate last night during the water change and all day there hasn't been a single sign of sickness. Looks like they will all be ok however I'll make sure to keep a good eye on them the next few days to make sure nothing starts coming up again. Thanks for the help!