Proven pairs now can't fertilize, WHAT'S WRONG?

[DonMD]

My proven pairs who have produced so well for me in the past, now cannot get their eggs fertilized. They lay, and in a couple days all the eggs are white.

This happened after my water supply changed, so I bought an R/O system. And since I've been using the R/O, they've produced white eggs at least 3 times, or more. Temperature varies between 82 and 83 degrees F. I change 70% of their water daily in the breeder tanks, and always mix R/O with aged tap to get near the ratios below. But since the change in the water supply, I get no wigglers.

If you can help me figure this out, I will be REALLY happy!





ph
tds
gh
kh


Tap Water
7.4
254 ppm
200 ppm
107 ppm


R/O water
less than 6
1.9 ppm
35 ppm
0 ppm


Breeder Tanks
7
61 ppm
72 ppm
35 ppm



850358503685037

[William Palumbo]

Hi Don, I'm not sure why you're having this problem, but I have better luck using pure RO water with RO Right added to it to bring up the parameters where I want them. Maybe the small amount of your tap water is causing a problem?...Bill

[DonMD]

Hi Don, I'm not sure why you're having this problem, but I have better luck using pure RO water with RO Right added to it to bring up the parameters where I want them. Maybe the small amount of your tap water is causing a problem?...Bill

Thanks, Bill. Using pure RO, aren't you worried about a pH crash? Does the RO Right take care of that? Thanks, -Don

[Second Hand Pat]

Don, just add enough RO Right to bring the kh to where you want it.

[Bill63SG]

Also this way you can be more consistant.I know exactly how much to add to my 44gal brute to get it where I want it.

[DonMD]

Don, just add enough RO Right to bring the kh to where you want it.

Pat, where would you recommend the kh be for breeders?


Also this way you can be more consistant.I know exactly how much to add to my 44gal brute to get it where I want it.

Thanks. While looking on line, I see that Kent RO Right is advertised both as "Marine" and no mention of marine. Is there any difference?

I'm definitely going to try this, as I've hit a brick wall as is.

[Second Hand Pat]

Don, I have never used RO Right but when I mix my RO and tap I aim for a kh of about 4 degree KH or about 70 ppm.
Pat

[Chicago Discus]

Hello Don, Whats your mix ratio for Tap/RO

[DonMD]

Don, I have never used RO Right but when I mix my RO and tap I aim for a kh of about 4 degree KH or about 70 ppm.
Pat

OK, thanks.


Hello Don, Whats your mix ratio for Tap/RO

Roughly about 1:3 tap:RO

[William Palumbo]

85042This is the stuff Don...Bill

[DonMD]

OK, I've got the picture! LOL. Thanks!

[nc0gnet0]

Ok, I can give you what I find with MY water.

At 60+ tds I get 0-1% hatch rate

At 40 tds I get over 50%

at 30 tds I get 95%+ ( at this point it is hard to tell what is the cause, water or unfertile eggs).

I have never used an additive.
I could care less about ph (doesn't matter IMO, although lower tds will influence ph).

I suggest running your tanks at 35 tds to see if you see an improvement, if you like, you can even pull a cone of eggs, put them in their own tank with some air and a tds of 20. If they hatch you will know its your water hardness, if they don't, then you got other issues with your pairs.

[Chicago Discus]

I would just add more R/O to the mix flip flop it go 2/3 R/O and 1/3 Tap :)

[JamesP]

Thanks, Bill. Using pure RO, aren't you worried about a pH crash? Does the RO Right take care of that? Thanks, -Don
Don,

I have played with pure RO water with my wilds and yes you need to be careful. But if you are doing 70% daily changes I wouldn't expect a crash. I would do the next couple of changes with pure RO and then test the tanks hardness. If you are in the 20's or 30's I would match that with your replacement water by using RO Right. One question what does your RO water test out at?

Jim

[MostlyDiscus]

JMHO but try using an antibiotic first before you change your water hardness. Did you try the PP treatment? Ask Hans what his water hardness is. I think around between 300-400 ppm is what he told me a few years ago when he was visiting with John. I use the kent as William suggested. I have found it works great for balance growth on fry developing in the wiggler stage. U have a great system Don. The breeders from Hans are steadfast. Take the cone after your pair has laid eggs and put into a tank with similar water with meth blue and see what happens. The reds you sold me are AWESOME. call

[DonMD]

Thanks, Ed, I'll give you a call later today.

[MostlyDiscus]

Your always welcome to stop by my friend.

[nc0gnet0]

Understanding TDS

TDS is a catch all that is made up of all dissolved solids in the water. It could be iron, sodium, calcium, or any other one of a thousand different elements or compounds.

In my water it is comprised of mainly calcium and magnesium, while in someone else's water it could be trace iron or salts. IN regards to egg viability, it is calcium (and possible to a lesser extent magnesium) that we are trying to reduce (or "soften").

For instance, lets say John has great success at 100 tds.
But I on the other hand have no success at even as low as 60 tds

What does this mean? Is john doing something different? Is he just a better breeder? Is it that his adults are healthier or German? Is it the magical beefheart he feeds?

LOL, it is none of those things.

What it means is Johns water is different than mine. It means the dissolved solids that make up his TDS are comprised of different components, and most likely he has a low calcium content and quite possibly something like trace amounts of iron, copper, sodium or potassium in his water. It also means that do to his low calcium content (calcium is a buffer) if John were to lower his tds to 30, he very well may have a ph crash.

Meanwhile when I try to duplicate Johns water condition, I get bad results.....why? My waters dissolved solids are comprised of mainly calcium. So while I might try to duplicate John's water by matching his TDS, when I try to spawn a pair at the same tds he does, I get no hatch. What is happening is while my TDS might be the same (in this case 100 tds) I have 4x the calcium he does.

Long story short, there is no "magic" number in regards to TDS that we can apply universally, because everyone's water is different. The best we can do is start at a general understood to be safe level, monitor the results, and if not successful, go lower gradually until we hit that sweet spot. During this process, and until we learn our water, monitoring the fish for stress (ph crash) should be vigilant. Eventually we will come across a level that provides us with good hatch rate, and does not result in a ph crash. The key is to lower the TDS gradually.

The only way we could consistently reproduce someone else's water is to start with 100 % pure RODI water (0 tds) and then add premeasured buffers, such as kent RO right to a determined level. While this indeed does work, it is completely unnecessary in most circumstances*, and, IMHO, a waste of money. Kent RO right is a decent enough buffer, but it has little to offer in terms of trace elements and prolonged use of it in such a fashion (no trace elements) could effect the health of the fish. Short term you should be fine.


-Rick

* exceptions to this are when the users tap water is already extremely soft, void of buffers, then adding buffers might be a necessity. This is not common in the US, but it does happen.

[nc0gnet0]

JMHO but try using an antibiotic first before you change your water hardness. Did you try the PP treatment? Ask Hans what his water hardness is. I think around between 300-400 ppm is what he told me a few years ago when he was visiting with John. I use the kent as William suggested. I have found it works great for balance growth on fry developing in the wiggler stage. U have a great system Don. The breeders from Hans are steadfast. Take the cone after your pair has laid eggs and put into a tank with similar water with meth blue and see what happens. The reds you sold me are AWESOME. call

I would eliminate the water as the culprit before any unnecessary treatment with antibiotics were introduced. If we eliminate the water, my next suggestion would be to focus on diet, unless the fish displayed obvious signs of illness. As I have suggested before, figuring this out is really really easy. Just pull a cone of eggs after the spawn, place them into extremely soft water by themselves and wait 56 hours. You will have your answer.

One of these days I am going to start playing around with a clear acrylic tube with a water tight bottom. The tube would extend up above the water column and allow the tube to be filed with water much lower in tds then that in the tank and also be sterile. The tube would function just like a screen or cage over the cone would. You would pull the cone after the pair had spawned, do a dip in cloramine-t, and then place in the tube. Parent would be able to see the eggs. After a hatch you could then slowly raise the TDS to that of the tank. When the wigglers go free swimming, just empty the tube with wigglers into the tank for attachment. This would allow for a much lower volume of RO water for breeding purposes, and one could even use distilled water, with a trace amount of buffers. What I don't know is how the parents would react to the tube......

[brewmaster15]

Don,
Can you give me some more info? You mentioned in the first post that this problem happened after your water supply changed? so you bought an RO and are still having issues? What was your water like before the change, and how did it change?

al

[nc0gnet0]

Don,
Can you give me some more info? You mentioned in the first post that this problem happened after your water supply changed? so you bought an RO and are still having issues? What was your water like before the change, and how did it change?

al

Al,

this will give you more insight:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?117688-Best-TDS-for-breeding&p=1135159&highlight=#post1135159

Best TDS for breeding?


I'm definitely on a slide in my breeding program. Before they switched my neighborhood from city water to county water, my fish were successfully breeding left and right. I thought the TDS reading then was 160ppm, but can't swear that's right.

NOW the TDS in the water supply measures 265ppm. So, I purchased an RO system, and tried breeding them in 120ppm water unsuccessfully. Now I have my proven pairs in 70ppm TDS water, and NO LUCK fertilizing the eggs! Everything else seems to be the same; same pairs, same mating behavior, same food and temps, but eggs always turn white.

Could it be a different water parameter that is interfering? Any suggestions on what to do ? ? ? -Don

[MostlyDiscus]

I would eliminate the water as the culprit before any unnecessary treatment with antibiotics were introduced. If we eliminate the water, my next suggestion would be to focus on diet, unless the fish displayed obvious signs of illness. As I have suggested before, figuring this out is really really easy. Just pull a cone of eggs after the spawn, place them into extremely soft water by themselves and wait 56 hours. You will have your answer.

One of these days I am going to start playing around with a clear acrylic tube with a water tight bottom. The tube would extend up above the water column and allow the tube to be filed with water much lower in tds then that in the tank and also be sterile. The tube would function just like a screen or cage over the cone would. You would pull the cone after the pair had spawned, do a dip in cloramine-t, and then place in the tube. Parent would be able to see the eggs. After a hatch you could then slowly raise the TDS to that of the tank. When the wigglers go free swimming, just empty the tube with wigglers into the tank for attachment. This would allow for a much lower volume of RO water for breeding purposes, and one could even use distilled water, with a trace amount of buffers. What I don't know is how the parents would react to the tube......
Hey Rick,
Yes those tubes were sold back in the 80s. Clear 1.5 inch that was glued to a stand about 4" high. After eggs were laid on half inch pvc you could place the eggs in the tube and meth blue or whatever water you wanted. I think I have a pic of it. Ill try to post. Seems like every spring Fairfax water cleans pipes in the area Don and I are in. When I spoke to their reps they told me they rotate around their network. I had at one time a 95 percent hatch rate while using salt and Prazi Pro to do a fluke treatment. TDS was over 1k according to my meter and was due to salt content. I always wondered if there were other trace mins in the bag of salt.

[nc0gnet0]

Hey Rick,
Yes those tubes were sold back in the 80s. Clear 1.5 inch that was glued to a stand about 4" high. After eggs were laid on half inch pvc you could place the eggs in the tube and meth blue or whatever water you wanted. I think I have a pic of it. Ill try to post. Seems like every spring Fairfax water cleans pipes in the area Don and I are in. When I spoke to their reps they told me they rotate around their network. I had at one time a 95 percent hatch rate while using salt and Prazi Pro to do a fluke treatment. TDS was over 1k according to my meter and was due to salt content. I always wondered if there were other trace mins in the bag of salt.

If I am reading Don's prior post correctly, they changed the very source of his water. All my responses to this thread where based on that as I remembered that prior post of his.

BTW, how did those tubes work? What I had in mind was a much bigger container/tube probably hold a gallon or more of water.

[MostlyDiscus]

Don may be on Fairfax City water but as I understand it they get their water from Fairfax County water. I play poker with a guy that works there so I will have to ask if they changed the way they produced their water. I have pics I just pulled up of the breeding cones of silence(get smart). My guess would be around quart though. Once I relearn how to post pics I will post them.

[brewmaster15]

I think I would suggest the following... get a handle on the water. Somethings up with that...Even with values Don posted he should still get some hatches..even if its only 20-30%.. I'm guessing the source water may have something added. So I'd definetly get more info on it. In the meanwhile.. the easiest solution is to use 100 % R/O.. and use something like R/O right. Keep a log of how much you are using and your hatch rates and the water parameters.. Once you zero in on what you know works, and have ruled out source water issues...then use the data on water parameters that worked as a starting point to try and duplicate it using R/O water Tap water ratio mixes.

Either that, or try 90 % R/O and 10 % tap... that should add back enough of the good stuff...if you can't get any hatches with that... theres something really wrong with your source water IMO.

hth,
al

[MostlyDiscus]

851028510385104No question the Virginia water sux. When I lived in Olney MD I never had problems with hatch rates. The problem is MD has water rights to the Potomac river and NOVA has to manufac. their water. Something about the water coming out light blue and you can really see it when you draw a bath tub of water.

[DonMD]

Thanks everyone for jumping in, I really appreciate it. Ed, I'm going to follow Rick and Al's advice before medicating, and if that doesn't work, then it'll be your plan.

I used to have Fairfax City water, which came from an entirely different source than the county. I bred great at 160ppm. But the city quit providing water, and now there must be more calcium in the county's water, so I'll take the tds down and down, and watch and wait. I'll also watch the pH carefully.

On another note, one of my buyers who runs a fish club in the Richmond area told me that the eggs as they develop within the female are sensitive to tds amounts, and that it's not enough just to lower it just prior to when the eggs are laid, but to keep the parents in the low tds for a time prior to laying. It seems logical.

Thanks, everyone. If I get a successful batch, you'll hear about it LOL!

[nc0gnet0]

On another note, one of my buyers who runs a fish club in the Richmond area told me that the eggs as they develop within the female are sensitive to tds amounts, and that it's not enough just to lower it just prior to when the eggs are laid, but to keep the parents in the low tds for a time prior to laying. It seems logical.

That's an interesting theory, but my experience does not support it..

[MostlyDiscus]

Well one thing we know is that your pair bred just fine at Hans. I don't think your having the pair for couple months in your water would have that kind of influence that quickly. Anyone know the best way to stabilize low tds water? When in doubt trust Rick. He breeds nice fish;)

[limige]

following, i'm in a similar boat. been dropping my tds trying to find how low it needs to be to get a hatch. so far I have had no successful spawns. started at 175 tds and i'm down to about 50 now.

[DonMD]

following, i'm in a similar boat. been dropping my tds trying to find how low it needs to be to get a hatch. so far I have had no successful spawns. started at 175 tds and i'm down to about 50 now.

Do you know if you're starting out with a proven pair?

[brewmaster15]

Don,
If you havent yet,try to get in touch with the water utility. Your current water values tds going up doesnt necessarily mean they added calcium or something like that. Tds just measures dissolved solids...could be any dissolved solids besides what we normally think of as being in water. A recent trend with water companies is to buffer the water so it doesnt corrode metal pipes. They use different things for this so its best to start at the source And get info.
hth

[Tankster]

This might be helpful - you just need to figure out your source and you can get some very specific data on what is in your water.
http://www.fairfaxwater.org/water/imar.htm

[limige]

Yes don I have two seperate proven pairs im working. They put down eggs consistently, both appear to be doing their jobs so its something with the water.

[DonMD]

Yes don I have two seperate proven pairs im working. They put down eggs consistently, both appear to be doing their jobs so its something with the water.

I feel your pain, man.

[Bill63SG]

Yes don I have two seperate proven pairs im working. They put down eggs consistently, both appear to be doing their jobs so its something with the water.

Have you ever had wigglers or had them carry fry before?

[limige]

Yes and no. My angels hatched fry before I moved across the state. The discus are a confirmed pair from a simply sponser. I havent had wrigglers at my place yet.

[limige]

The discus were ready to lay eggs when I left so hopefully ill have an answer if im low enough tds within a few days.

[Bill63SG]

Yes and no. My angels hatched fry before I moved across the state. The discus are a confirmed pair from a simply sponser. I havent had wrigglers at my place yet.

Just checking.Also,confirmed is wiggler/known male and female.Proven is that they have raised spawn.Confirmed might still be settling in depending on how long you had them.Proven led me to belive they spawned for you in the past and then stopped.

[CliffsDiscus]

I pull out the eggs after spawning and place it in an incubation bowl or container about 1 gallon with 100 percent R/O water, after 2 1/2 days just before hatching

the water is switch to my raising water, foster parent pair or the original breeding pair. Sorry but I don't have permission to post picture?

Cliff

[nc0gnet0]

I pull out the eggs after spawning and place it in an incubation bowl or container about 1 gallon with 100 percent R/O water, after 2 1/2 days just before hatching

the water is switch to my raising water, foster parent pair or the original breeding pair. Sorry but I don't have permission to post picture?

Cliff

I agree and have posted as much, I don't understand why you would want to keep dropping down gradual until you have determined it is indeed a water issue....this approach does just that-proves the pair is fine and it is indeed the water. Otherwise, you could waste several batches of eggs as you play with water softness.

[limige]

expected my angels to spawn today, discus put down eggs yesterday. tanks are at 70 tds now, as I was cleaning the tank I lifted the filter and found loose angel eggs underneath. I saved some and put into a container but why didnt' they stick? I've never had this issue before. discus eggs stuck just fine. they are tending them so far

[alcastro]

I do the same as Cliff said, I don't sweat it anymore.

[DonMD]

FINALLY got wigglers this morning. Have been keeping pairs in 35 - 50 ppm TDS with RO Right.

Thanks everyone for all your excellent feedback and comments, you pulled me through this! Was bashing my head against the wall, but am now VERY HAPPY!

[Second Hand Pat]

Don, glad you got this sorted out. Another thought is added a high flow carbon block/sediment filter to your tap water if you wish to return to a tap/RO mix.
Pat

[limige]

thanks for the update, I may have to try that as well

[brewmaster15]

Great News Don!

al

[limige]

what did your water come out like after using the ro right and pure ro water? where was the PH? did you use recommended dosage? what tds did you come up with?

i'm going to order some I think

[Northwoods Discus]

You can just add tap water and adjust to the TDS you want rather than spending money on RO right.

[nc0gnet0]

You can just add tap water and adjust to the TDS you want rather than spending money on RO right.

yup

[DonMD]

what did your water come out like after using the ro right and pure ro water? where was the PH? did you use recommended dosage? what tds did you come up with?

i'm going to order some I think

I decided not to remix with tap water, as that was the problem, and I didn't know what was in it. So, I used pure RO/DI 0 TDS water, then mixed RO Right in with it. I first began with a TDS of 35 ppm, but have now raised that to 65 ppm. With the RO Right, at least I know that the water has the right elements in it for the fish.

[limige]

ok, right now i'm only mixing in 3 gallons of well water to 27 gallons of RO. if this don't work i'm just using RO right from now on. eggs went down yesterday. tomorrow I will screen them and see

[DonMD]

ok, right now i'm only mixing in 3 gallons of well water to 27 gallons of RO. if this don't work i'm just using RO right from now on. eggs went down yesterday. tomorrow I will screen them and see

Who knows what's in the well water? But I think using 100% RO/DI and adding in RO Right may work for you; it certainly worked for me. Not sure I know what you mean by "screen them." ? ? ? Anyway, keep us posted on your progress. -Don

[Larry Grenier]

Yes Don, definitely keep us posted. On the "bashing your head against the wall" thing, I'm glad that stopped, I could hear it all the way to Manassas.

[MostlyDiscus]

Good to hear young man. I hope that the wigglers are from that awesome fire red pair you procured from Hans. Cliff and Rick mentioned to isolate the eggs just to see if the eggs hatched. Process of elimination is the best way to solve a problem. Was going to tell you that around 80 tds I was getting a good hatch rate using RO and tap combo filtered through carbon block. Meth blue if you remove eggs or PP treatment just prior to laying eggs works best for our breeders. TDS around 80-90 and if you control PH( Really thinking hard on CO2)then try to keep your PH between 5.8 and 6.3... or so. Too many fry too little time. Now to figure how to maintain clean water for 12 months in order to raise decent discus like our man Rick.

[limige]

Well finally with a tds of 38 my angels hatched some fry.
my RO right arrived today. Im going to use that

[William Palumbo]

Looks like that guy from the second post nailed it!...Smart guy!...Bill

[limige]

Indeed you did. Thanks. Ive always mixed RO in the past but never had this issue. Ro right looks like my new best friend.

[limige]

Well they ate the last batch be for it was time and this batch I screened. Got wrigglers using RO right!

Thanks for the info guys

[limige]

85891Not a very good hatch. Maybe ill try reducing the air flow to the filter

[limige]

so between the two pictures it looks like there were quite a few that were fertile but died.

what would cause this?

[nc0gnet0]

still a tad to hard maybe

[DonMD]

While I was going through this process of transferring from hard city water to RO, I had two side-by-side breeder tanks going. In one I used ONLY RO with RO Right, before, during and after eggs hatched and fry went free swimming. In the other I transitioned back to hard city water once the eggs were showing dark wigglers. The tank that stuck with the RO produced easily over 100 attached fry, the tank with the transitioned to city water ended up with about 25 fry. I think I made the switch too soon.

Now I've got all the fry & parents back on city water, and all's good. But only one tank has 100+ fry, the other has 25, maybe. I suspect that the abrupt change to city water made it hard for the wigglers to attach. A friend of mine thinks I was feeding too much during that time, but I was treating both tanks the same regarding feeding, only the water was different.

So, I'm thing like MUD, maybe the water was too hard for the new free swimming fry.

How do you get a real name like Mud? Oh, maybe I don't want to know LOL!

[Loosir]

How do you get a real name like Mud?
Primus?

[limige]

Ok. So ive been running the RO right in straight filtered water at the recommended dose. Tds 122 ph 6
I've got a pretty good hatch this time but im nervous about running a 6 ph. I experimented by adding one gallon of well water and reducing the ro right. I had a tds of 75 and ph of 7.

So im trying to decide where to go from here. How dangerous is running low ph?
Im trying a 1/2 gallon of well to see if I could maintain a 6.5 basically I want some buffer in the water. Im not sure if ro right contain any buffer.

Then the question of when to acclimate fry to straight well which has a ph of 8.

[DonMD]

So, I had a hatch of over 100 using RO water with the RO Right at about 65ppm. One week after they were attached, I switched over to city water, which has a ppm of 265, more or less. I made the switch doing partial water changes. All's good. They're about 3 weeks old now and growing fast.

[limige]

Ok thanks