Possible costia?

[JHoss15]

Hi all, could really use some help/advise with an extremely sudden deadly outbreak in my tank!
Tank is 125 gallon planted tank.
Ammonia =0
Nitrite=0
Nitrates= under 5pmm slight color change api test kit
Filtration 30 gallon sump
Weekly water chance of 50% tank been running for 4yrs

So this all started about two weeks ago when I noticed a few discus hiding, darkening, not eating great. Assumed internal parasite So treated with metro right away after treatment everyone doing great color return eating way less hiding. Well yesterday I come home from work to a disaster one discus dead, extremely skinny and sores all over....(will attach pics) checked gills on him and it looked really healthy. Then I noticed 1 dead ram and one dead neon tetra. And my big beauty hiding and had a whitish patch on him. I quickly removed him of my QT system and added salt and treated with Furan 2 (I was assuming this was a bacteria infection outbreak) he didn't make if through the night :( today I noticed 3 more dead tetras and my other ram. Now one of my celebes has a huge white patch on him. Is this a fungus? Would it kill this fast out of nowhere or is it costia.? Any help advise on how to treat please let me know....also I want to treat whole DT I will not move another discus to QT due to stressing it worse.

Thanks all

[Ardan]

What do you feed?
Did you add any new fish or plants?

If it is a parasite problem then a pp treatment or a formaldehyde based product (rid ich etc) usually helps with most external parasites. Treat in a bare bottom tank.

hth


Ardan

[nc0gnet0]

I am kinda waiting for pics?

[JHoss15]

I feed frozed brine, bloodworms, and omega one fish flakes. Yes i did add a 2 new Peacock Gudgeons However I QTd them for two weeks before adding them to the tank, i am assuming this was that not long enough? But what ever this is, it comes out of know where and kills fast! Thanks for help/support

[JHoss15]

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag291/Jhoss15/fish1_zpsqgvtvevf.jpg

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag291/Jhoss15/fish2_zpsskxwtof5.jpg

http://i1371.photobucket.com/albums/ag291/Jhoss15/fish3_zpsga4rzepi.jpg

1st picture its the top fish you can see it all over his body, it looks like a fungus, but its not cottony or fuzzy just milky color, it then turns into red like bleeding scores, other symptoms are labored breathing and fins fraying. Again this is a tough one dont know how to treat it. Also it is a planted tank, but i dont mind killing off the plants or removing them to save the fish!

NOTE: Fish was already dead so i am not hurting it in anyway. (other then it dying on my watch...which i feel awful i couldnt do anything)

[brewmaster15]

That does look like Costia to me... The progression to sores and raw appearence. I would treat with malachite green and formalin..aka quick cure.


Rick may have other suggestions from his Koi days, we usually don't see it Discus that much.

al

[nc0gnet0]

That does look like Costia to me... The progression to sores and raw appearence. I would treat with malachite green and formalin..aka quick cure.


Rick may have other suggestions from his Koi days, we usually don't see it Discus that much.

al

https://www.pondrx.com/home.php?cat=281

last you a lifetime, and several future generations as well. :)

[JHoss15]

Thanks all-
I figured thats what this was, im acutally not sure how this got in my tank other then the peacocks, unless its been in there waiting for fish immune system to drop. However i beleive i have an idea how this got so bad, the heat in my house went out and my house got down to 55 i did everthing i could to keep the tank water warm while this was happening but it did drop into the high 70s despite my best efforts. (had to sleep) im assuming the stress of this may have made the susceptible to the outbreak? anyway i contacted my LFS they have no QK cure or any Malachite Green. Any suggestions to help with fish loss until Tuesday when the get a new shipment? I heard raising the temp to 88-90 will kill it? I also used aquriam salt ( i know i have plants but at this point they are the last of my worries) Thanks again for all the kind and helpful responses.

[Ardan]

Yes High heat kills costia. Above 86F. The higher the better. Don't use high heat with formalin as the Oxygen levels will drop even more. Salt helps too. Use extra aeration with high heat.

hth
Ardan

[JHoss15]

THANKS! I will add and some aeration and slowly raise the temp to 90 Thanks again. I have no formalin so should be safe.

Jason

[Ardan]

Untergasser says 92F for 4 days. Not sure about the other fish taking the high heat.

hth
Ardan

[brewmaster15]

Careful on the heat... if you don't go high enough alls it will do is speed up the lifecycle which means it gets worse fast.

hth,
al

[JHoss15]

Ok, so I have to get the heat up to 92? It's st 88 now is that not warm enough?

[nc0gnet0]

I would have went the Quick cure route.....don't do both though........

[JHoss15]

Ok I don't have any quick cure and my LFS doesn't , I have some seachem paragaurd on the way. Just trying not to lose another discus until I can get some medication. 92 just makes me nervous.

[rickztahone]

Ok I don't have any quick cure and my LFS doesn't , I have some seachem paragaurd on the way. Just trying not to lose another discus until I can get some medication. 92 just makes me nervous.

I have had discus at that temp, but you should try to limit the amount of days they are exposed to that high of a temp and keep a lot of air in the tank. If the above mentioned 4 days is the recommendation, then I would shoot for that.

[jimg]

salt dip at 3%

[nc0gnet0]

Ok I don't have any quick cure and my LFS doesn't , I have some seachem paragaurd on the way. Just trying not to lose another discus until I can get some medication. 92 just makes me nervous.

Discus should be ok, tetras and gbr's not so sure..........

[nc0gnet0]

salt dip at 3%

Not if putting them back into the same tank.....avoid this. If placing them back into a sterile QT tank that would be fine.

[rickztahone]

I was informed by a fellow member that Quick Cure is no longer available because they got bought out by Hikari. The new product is Quick Ich which are the same ingredients; Malanchite green and formaldehyde (formalin).

[jimg]

Not if putting them back into the same tank.....avoid this. If placing them back into a sterile QT tank that would be fine.
3% dip then back into tank with major wc's until formalin and malachite green is on hand. dipping them then putting them into a sterile tank will only infect the sterile tank as the salt dip will more than likely only knock the numbers down and keep sores/irritated skin from getting worse. raising temp may help but i have not done it that way to see.

[JHoss15]

Update-
So I am having difficulty gettijg temp to 92 with the heaters I have but have got it to 89 and I have noticed a huge difference,, all hiding discus are no longer hiding, I notice scores on them but they seem to be healing. All fish even the worst looking one has eaten. I also am treating with fraun 2 in case of bacteria infection due to the scores. Not sure if this was costia or a bacteria...possibly both....but the heat and fraun seem to be doing the trick! Thanks all for the help

[Ardan]

I am glad they are doing better!
However don't let your guard down and you still might want to treat with the paragauard when you get it. You may have just knocked down the parasite and not eliminated it. I have used paraguard on Oscars for an unknown parasite and had really good results. I have not used it on discus or other fish.

Higher temps increase the fish metabolism and immune system and helps them cope with the parasite, at the same time the parasite has trouble living in the high temps, but if the parasite is still present it may rebound when you start to lower the temp. Since your temp was borderline high enough you might want to treat, it's up to you. But for sure be on your guard and watch them closely.

hth
Ardan

[JHoss15]

Great thanka all! Day 3 of heat and all fish even tetras are all making it snd doing well!! I will be doing a 40% WC tomorrow using carbon for a day then treatment of the Paragould when it arrives...what do you all think? Reason for a day of carbon would be to eliminate any furan 2 left in the system. Don't wanna mix any medications. Thanks so much for all the support and help truly appreciated.

[brewmaster15]

Great thanka all! Day 3 of heat and all fish even tetras are all making it snd doing well!! I will be doing a 40% WC tomorrow using carbon for a day then treatment of the Paragould when it arrives...what do you all think? Reason for a day of carbon would be to eliminate any furan 2 left in the system. Don't wanna mix any medications. Thanks so much for all the support and help truly appreciated.

You need to be careful here... How long has furan 2 been in the tank? What happens with this kind of parasite infection is the furan 2 can mask the protozoan. The Protozoan feeding usually causes a secondary bacterial infection . Thats what you see with the sores, fuzzys and white patches. Furan 2 will often deal with that secondary infection, and make it look like the fish are responding to the treatment. Once its out of the tank, the secondary infections come back... meanwhile the protozoans have been increasing in numbers.

You have a few options..
options.. these are your best bets,IME.

* formalin with malachite green or paraguard
*salt dips
*high heat..

I'm going to advise you something you won't want to hear... If you want to deal with this issue and not face it again a few weeks or months down the road..

1)Take all the fish out, put them in a bucket with an airstone.
2)Strip that tank.take out all the gravel, either pitch it or boil it for use when the disease is successfully treated
3)Thoroughly rinse all filter material.
4) remove all plants and either pitch them or place them with the fish.. odds are most treatments will kill these or impair them greatly.
5) Totally drain the tank.. remove all structures like driftwood... boil it for future use.
6)Fill the tank with clean water.
7) Salt dip the fish ( and plants)...info here...http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip
8) Put Fish into the cleaned tank of fresh water
9) treat with formalin with malachite green or para-guard (optional but stressful)
10 Repeat the dips as needed....it may take several treatments.

Ideally The salt dip method works best when you dip the fish and place into a clean sterile tank. You can actually just use salt dips and alternate between the sterile tank and sterile bucket here and use no meds.> but that means pitching your biofilter.

The above is aggressive but should work to permanently deal with this issue.

hth, '
al

[JHoss15]

Brewmaster
Do you not think paragaurd will eradicate the protozoan? From the research and forum reading I have done, (mostly on fresh and saltwater ich) seachems para and cupermine are close to 100% effective in killing all types of protozoan. Also I do not have the space for that size of QT tank/system...I do have a small room my wife let me turn into a "fish hospital" I have room for 3 QT tanks two of which r established saltwater one 10g and the other 14g. I have one freshwater (not established/cycled) in which I use aeration and daily w/c when fish are in there. That thank is 13 wide view tank. So I just do not have the room or tanks for 5 large discus and tetras. Also in my experience I have had 0 luck absolute 0% moving discus who are sick to a QT and them living longer then 24hrs. 5 discus In my life I have tried that with all 5 dead in 24hrs....and throwing caution to the wind and treating main tank regardless of plants and inverts I'm around 90% survival rate. So sorry I'm the exception (and sure most will think I'm crazy) but I don't like QT for sick discus...any other fish yes discus for me just can't handle it. Any other suggestion other then that? Do you not think paragaurd will do the trick?

[brewmaster15]

Brewmaster
Do you not think paragaurd will eradicate the protozoan? From the research and forum reading I have done, (mostly on fresh and saltwater ich) seachems para and cupermine are close to 100% effective in killing all types of protozoan. Also I do not have the space for that size of QT tank/system...I do have a small room my wife let me turn into a "fish hospital" I have room for 3 QT tanks two of which r established saltwater one 10g and the other 14g. I have one freshwater (not established/cycled) in which I use aeration and daily w/c when fish are in there. That thank is 13 wide view tank. So I just do not have the room or tanks for 5 large discus and tetras. Also in my experience I have had 0 luck absolute 0% moving discus who are sick to a QT and them living longer then 24hrs. 5 discus In my life I have tried that with all 5 dead in 24hrs....and throwing caution to the wind and treating main tank regardless of plants and inverts I'm around 90% survival rate. So sorry I'm the exception (and sure most will think I'm crazy) but I don't like QT for sick discus...any other fish yes discus for me just can't handle it. Any other suggestion other then that? Do you not think paragaurd will do the trick?

I think you misread my post.. I suggested netting the fish and placing them in a bucket while breaking down the tank they are in...Its not a hospital tank..its a bucket to hold them while you clean the tank..The tank will then become the hospital tank... and you alternate between it and the buckets for salt dips.. Sorry you've had bad luck with Discus being sick and moving them to hospital tanks...they may just have been too sick at that point.

To answer your question

Do you not think paragaurd will eradicate the protozoan? From the research and forum reading I have done Honestly I don't know. I have more faith in cupramine and more experience with it(but copper has its risks). But I am pretty sure that most tests on efficacy happen in bare bottom tank under controlled situations and its probably a one species tank. Have substrate makes things much more tricky..

My advice was for your best chance of beating this and not having a relapse in weeks or months. I know its not what most people want to hear. You have to go with what you are comfortable with. Wish I could help you more on that.

al

[JHoss15]

Al-
Sorry I did mis read your post, that makes more sense, I think I may have to attempt that when I get my next free day! And I believe your right most if not all test r bare bottom. Thanks again for your help and advice I will keep all posted on how everyone does thought treatment and possible tank breakdown.