How to achieve and maintain good shape for babies.

[wtsys]

Hi,

I have problem with 4-5 week old babies from each breeding batch. Few babies have clamped fins and some have Dorsal fin clipped at middle portion. The babies are very active and seems healthy otherwise.

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I feed BH mix 2 times and 2 times brine shrimp at this stage. At least 2 water changes of 70% or more. Temperature is maintain at 82 to 84 deg. The TDS is 50ppm. I am using tap water which is preheated and aerated for 12 hours.

Can I request the expert to suggest what should I do to achieve and maintain the good shape and erect fins? What I may be doing wrong here?

All suggestions are welcome.

Regards,

Parag

[Keith Perkins]

If the dorsals are deformed it's not something you're going to fix and the fish might as well be culled. You may have something like a calcium deficiency causing this but I say it's genetic. Your feeding, WC, and temp information look good, but the TDS is very low for babies. You have a 50 ppm TDS right out of the tap? Could be, but that's quite low for tap. Maybe one of the big boys will come by with a suggestion, adding something like RO Right to raise the TDS is my immediate thought.

[wtsys]

CozyKeith,

Thanks for your feedback. Regarding genetic, the parents have good shape and I have even seen the generation before that. So I have to rule out the genetics. There is something wrong at my end for sure.

The tap water is 50 ppm or event lower than that some times. It can reach 25ppm. Water at my place is very soft.

If the dorsal is deformed or damaged then it will not regain the shape again? Also most of the babies with problem are not deformed but have clamped fins. what to do about that?

[discuspaul]

Good answer from Keith - there's always some culling needed, so that's neither out of the way nor unusual. It's unavoidable.
You have a lot of fry, so there's nothing unusual about genetics coming into play here, and it surely will.
I'm by no means a "big boy" when it comes to breeding and raising fry - in fact very far away, but perhaps Rick (Mud) or John N. might want to contribute something here.

You're doing a lot of the right things to grow those youngsters out properly, and if a few don't seem to be developing the right shape, or erect fins, etc., it's not your doing/ incorrect treatment - just life the way it is. Nothing to do with how you're raising them, in my view - I'll give way to others with more experience in this area - but I still don't feel it's anything to do with the way you're growing them out. That's my take.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Parag,
Trying to make sure I understand your problem correctly. Did the fish who's fins are now clamped ever have erect fins/fins not clamped?
Thanks

[wtsys]

Kraig,

I will not be able to say for sure but I think few started with clamped fins. But have also noticed that the percentage of babies with this condition increase from 3rd - 4th week.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

The reason I was asking of course is to rule out birth deformities/genetic deformities. Because the percentage increases this sounds like a health issue and maybe this thread needs to be moved to the disease section. I would encourage you to seek help there. It sounds like a possible bacterial infection. Maybe try a PP treatment keeping a close eye on the young when they are treated. PP is deadly and the gill tissues on the fry are ultra sensitive when compared to older fish. I have recently had success using PP on my 2-4 week old fry after having a die off on every batch starting at age 3-4 weeks. I use the method here.
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/potassium_permanganate.shtml

Please seek other advice as two or more heads are usually better than one.

Good luck and please keep us updated

[Keith Perkins]

What Kraig said. I like PP a lot for bacterial type issues, but with little ones 2 ppm is really pushing the upper limit as far as tolerance goes. I'm still wondering if you have actual deformed dorsals or if they're clamped. Deformed dorsals are a lot easier to see at 3 or 4 weeks old and it's possible you just didn't see them before, but if they're simply clamped down that's a completely different scenario. It's very possible to have a small percentage of fish with the deformity just every once in a while with a pair, so either scenario is still a possibility.

[wtsys]

CozyKeith, There are few deformed babies. May be 10 out of 200 batch. I think that is acceptable. But what should I do about clamped fins? What should I change?

Kraig, I did try the PP at 3 weeks. Babies seems to somewhat improve after the PP treatment. Will repeat treatment help or it is not advised?

Does bacterial attack has any role in fin deformation?

What about TDS? is my TDS of 50ppm a problem? If so what do experts suggest?

And secondly, what are the chance of the babies improving the shape as they grow? Or there is no hope?

Thanks

[Keith Perkins]

Deformed dorsals do not improve with age and those 10 or so should be culled. I've had it happen a couple of times through the years with no real explanation why. Lack of calcium was a suspicion, but certainly was never confirmed as a cause.

How often are you wiping down all the surfaces below the water line? That's where bacteria grows.

I'll send a PM to the couple of guys I'd ask about raising your babies in so low a TDS and see if one or more of them will chime in. I don't suspect that's your main problem however, I'd say it's bacterial.

[wtsys]

CozyKeith, thanks for your help. My current routine is to clean the inside of tank after every 3 days.

Also, I do not keep sponge filter as it traps brine shrimps. I hope 70% water change 2 times a day should not require the bio filter. What do you think?

Thanks again.

[Second Hand Pat]

wtsys, I presume you are at least running air in the tank. Have you tested for ammonia just before a WC? Very young fry are pretty sensitive to ammonia and running without bio give you zero room for mistakes. Not saying it can't be done but you have to stay on top of your game.
Pat

[wtsys]

Pat, Air is running. I have not tested the ammonia. Will order test kit right now. But I do make sure that there is no leftover on the tank bottom 30 min after feeding. Every thing is syphoned after 30 min and the last water change is 70% in the evening and no feeding after that. Should I start using the bio filters? will that improve the condition? What about the brine shrimp getting sucked in the filter?

[Second Hand Pat]

Lets test for ammonia first and go from there. If you decide to use a filter a sponge filter would most likely be your best choice. These filters can be removed and rinsed with non-chlorinated water to remove any attached food. You could also turn the filter off while feeding and turn it on after cleaning the bottom.
Pat

[wtsys]

Will higher ammonia cause fin injury or deformation or fin clamping?

My test kit will arrive on Tuesday. So will provide the count on same day. I will not add filters till then. But will start the culture by putting new filters in other tanks.

Thanks,

Parag

[CliffsDiscus]

Looks like you got some Razor backs, probably should cull these and also check for some short or flair out gill covers. You may want to check your KH reading. The body shape is genetic.
Cliff

[nc0gnet0]

IMO, the deformities you are seeing (razorbacks) is a result of a bacterial issue while still wigglers on the cone. You just don't catch the damage and they mature and then it becomes visible. There is nothing you can do about it. I don't think it is a KH problem for this specific issue.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

If the babies were visibly better after your PP treatment than I would say the PP treatment helped. I have had young with clamped fins go back to normal after treating for bacterial infections. When I treat with antibiotics I usually go at least 10 days if not 14. A three day PP treatment is recommended in the link I sent you. I like Pat's point and I think you need a established biological filter of some sort in the tank, although if the fish are not breathing heavy ammonia may not be a issue. Are you noticing more fish with fins clamping? If so then you know it is a ongoing problem and not just something that happened in the past. I know it is a hard call to make as there is a lot of great advice here for you. Keep us posted please and the best of luck!!!

[wtsys]

nc0gnet0,

What should I do to avoid this happening again? What steps you will recommend?

Thanks

[wtsys]

Kingdom Come Discus,

Which antibiotics you used? I will do the 3 day PP treatment and then will let you know.

Thanks

[Kingdom Come Discus]

For over the last year or so I have tried the following treatments on a few batches of fry. Keep in mind I don't raise a lot of fish.

I used Erythromycin, Triple Sulfa, Nitrofurazone mixed with Kanamycin in a effort to replicate spectrogram which has not been on the market for many years now.

If I have anymore outbreaks I am going to do what I should have done in the first place. Take a hour ride to see Kentucky State University's Fish Pathologist. His services are free through the Commonwealth's extension service.

[wtsys]

Hi all,

Update : Got the Ammonia test kit. Took readings from few tanks with babies today morning. It was after about 13 hours from last syphon. The readings range from 0.25 to 1 PPM. So seems that even doing 70% water changes 2 time a day are not enough and need bio-filters. I will be installing filters from tomorrow. But that will take 3-4 weeks to take effect.

Mean while can some one confirm that these levels of ammonia may result in the clamp/deformed fins in babies? Or there are still other factors? What about the bacterial attach? How to prevent that?

Thanks a lot in advance.

Parag

[gimaal]

<<Will higher ammonia cause fin injury or deformation or fin clamping?>>

Yes, absolutely.