Discus horizontal - vertical

[RUZDO.O]

I'm interested in the ideal dimensions of the adult , attitude horizontal - vertical.

[rickztahone]

Ideal can mean one thing to one person and another thing to someone else. Ideal is very subjective.

[DISCUS STU]

Ideal can mean one thing to one person and another thing to someone else. Ideal is very subjective.

+1 Good point! It all subjective. For my money, the rounder and more symmetrical the better.

[Loosir]

Is it safe to say that most SD members would be happy with perfectly round with a 7-8" diameter?
I'm assuming the term "ideal" is not the same as "most exceptional, or worlds record"

[rickztahone]

Is it safe to say that most SD members would be happy with perfectly round with a 7-8" diameter?
I'm assuming the term "ideal" is not the same as "most exceptional, or worlds record"

Again, it depends. If you notice, a lot of the Stendker family discus tend to be longer than tall as opposed to Asian strains where they are more round. This of course has to do with breeding techniques, but many Asian breeders have mixed in bulldog genes to get more height out of their discus and then they line bred it back to normal stock to get that more round look. So, different folks....

[John_Nicholson]

I have also had a lot of really round Stendkers......It is a matter of taste but most would say the rounder the better.

-john

[rickztahone]

I have also had a lot of really round Stendkers......It is a matter of taste but most would say the rounder the better.

-john

Oh yeah, I have seen some really round Stendkers as well. I actually like that they tend to be longer though, just because they seem to hit those monster sizes like 7.5-8".

[monching]

That's why they are called discus in the first place.....:) they should be round...as round as possible. Just my opinion and preference.:cowboy:

[Surfnturf]

Are you counting the fins? O have seen very round discus bodies with different shaped fins.

[Loosir]

The ideal discus shape
86082

:cheesy: Just messing around Ricardo :cheesy:

[RUZDO.O]

that it is horizontal -8 and vertical - 8. For me it's a real discus form.
And H -8 and V -6 It's wedge shape discus, H -6 and V - 8 bulldof discus.

[Reesj]

All talking about dimensions of ideal adult discus in 8 inches :D Have any of you had a discus you measured to be 8 inches(with tape measure) in either measurement let alone in round shape ? That I guess must be from over 100000 discus I guess from experience and people posting here ?

[100fuegos]

All talking about dimensions of ideal adult discus in 8 inches :D Have any of you had a discus you measured to be 8 inches(with tape measure) in either measurement let alone in round shape ? That I guess must be from over 100000 discus I guess from experience and people posting here ?

I do have one, and his sibling is almost there too, just a tad smaller.

[Surfnturf]

How often do discus reach 8 inches? Biggest I have seen at lfs have been maybe 5" max.

[John_Nicholson]

5 inches is small for an adult. While I do have a few 5 inch fish I expect my adults to be 6 inches plus. I think a range of 6 to 8 inches is a reasonable expectation total length.

-john

[rickztahone]

5 inches is small for an adult. While I do have a few 5 inch fish I expect my adults to be 6 inches plus. I think a range of 6 to 8 inches is a reasonable expectation total length.

-john

agreed. 8" being a lot more rare than a 6" adult of course. If you do good WC's and feed good food, everyone should be able to achieve 6" easy. However, one of the easiest way to not get full potential sizes is discus becoming sick early on. At leas this has been my experience.

[John_Nicholson]

Your correct.

-john

[RUZDO.O]

I have a tank of 1200 liters (317). sump filter 200 litrs (53).WC 1/3 day and feed good food. Discus can be relatively easy to get to 7-8

[Reesj]

I have a tank of 1200 liters (317). sump filter 200 litrs (53).WC 1/3 day and feed good food. Discus can be relatively easy to get to 7-8

Can you please post some pictures of your fish with measurements. Asking mostly as I have not seen anything over 8 inches for real! There are ofc claims of even 10-11 inch discus and I have seen even adverts selling fish that's over 10 inches. But have not seen these fish for real with a measurements.

[Loosir]

Can you please post some pictures of your fish with measurements. Asking mostly as I have not seen anything over 8 inches for real! There are ofc claims of even 10-11 inch discus and I have seen even adverts selling fish that's over 10 inches. But have not seen these fish for real with a measurements.

Hey Reesj,
I think most of us were thinking 7" to 8" not just the high end. As far as 8 inchers myself, mine are only 10.5 months old (5.5" to date), but i'll try to keep up with the photos and measurements. I'm sure you've seen this thread
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?104491-Show-us-your-monster-size-Discus-Fish&highlight=monster

I think most of us would agree that 10"-11" is false advertising.
Thanks
geoff

[oliverk]

While preferences are always important I generally think of few things when considering an ideal.

1) What are the standards in the various competitions that judge such things. Usually some organization has published an ideal or standard - in the US in dogs it is the National Breed Club of what ever breed recognized by the AKC. - within the standard there is usually a variety of criteria that various certified judges will consider more or less important etc. Additionally, within the standard some breeders may choose to emphasize certain styles, types, temperaments etc.

2) What the public at large considers an ideal - very subjective but.......

Further it is my belief that intelligent breeders will try and synthesize the two and especially predict the market trends a little. For example, while the larger may be more impressive, if you believe that people will be increasingly space constrained, a smaller size may eventually be more accepted in the market.... To bring this thought back to discus if you believe the ideal school size is 10-12 fish and ideal apartment size aquarium is 75-100 gallons what would the fish have to be in size to be comfortable and reasonable for most to keep in such a tank.... Think the answer is 5"-7" and it would be a mistake to breed for larger.

[John_Nicholson]

The NADA standard is round.

-john

[oliverk]

Could you provide a link to the complete standard?

[John_Nicholson]

We have never provided a link that I know of, but I am in charge of the judging program and I wrote the judging manual so I can probably answer any questions you might have.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

John, the judging score sheet from the Austin Show might help give an idea http://nadaaustin2014.com/category/classes-and-awards/. It is towards the bottom of the page.
Pat

[John_Nicholson]

Yep.

[oliverk]

Hey helpful thanks. I had been hoping for something like http://www.abtc.org/jtwofive/images/stories/breed_information/Breed_Standard.pdf which is the published breed standard for a particular breed of dogs - Belgian Tervuren. It gives size, shape, coloration, coat, temperament, teeth, bite gate and other criteria. From this the breeds also have judges training programs and guides and within the standard there is a great deal of judging flexibility... some judges are known as "tooth faries" or head judges, or gait dominate or want the Eurpoean type or American type, and indeed a careful exhibitor will understand and know the judges preferences and plan their exhibition campaigns accordingly. It is a published target that breeders, judges and owners can compare their dogs to and all must reference. The AKC requires one of every breed and the breed club can change the standard, usually it is very very difficult to change the standard because it should be a stable target that breeders work with over many generations of dogs. Europe and Canada have slightly different standards, but they are remarkably similar world wide, and moving away from a global consensus can be difficult. Note in Europe there is a major difference they treat the Belgian Shepherd (all black long hair ), Belgian Turvuren (brown with black overshot, long hair), Belgian Malinois (short hair version of the Turveren - also the most poplular protection and police dog world wide) and the Lakenois curly hair version of the Turveren - rare) as varities of one breed while in the US they are four different breeds. I know a little because I took two Tervs to Champion status, one that I also bred was shown lightly and even so was invited to a major national show Eukanuba and just missed an invitation to Westminister. Some dogs, like Tervs, have other types of achievements for example herding titles and my dogs achieved some titles there as well. Because of health reasons I can no longer participate in dog exhibitions, sigh. The standard, however, really is the bible for showing, selecting and breeding.

May I ask why there is no published "standard" for discus fish? So anyway I thought a reference to the discus standard, if available - unfortunately I guess not, might have helped the person who wanted to know the ideal size and shape of a discus fish.

Are there any variations among discus enough to warrant differing judging criteria "breed" or varieties within a breed? In some no markings would be desirable yes? just a pure color? Some no peppering? pigeon bloods? Long fins? How about presence or lack of bars?

Note In American dog judging and you may see in the breed standard there is an ideal size for example, outside is a deduction - to a point and then the dog may be disqualified. From the judging sheet for discus I saw no such indications of disqualification for too large too small or........

[Second Hand Pat]

Check out Body size on the judging form. Also there are contain expectations for the various classes listed above the judging form. For example the solid class are all barless fish.

[John_Nicholson]

I understand hoe the dog shows work. I use to raise catahoulas. I had one of the top stud dogs in the country for several years. I have also judged more catahoulas shows that I think onyone else alive. You have to walk before you run.

-john

[oliverk]

Yes and crawl - which is why I am very surprised that there is not a published standard of judging for discus.

Certainly it is harder to move the fish than a dog so it may be less popular to do so, but for the same reason if you are going to move a fish or two to an exhibition site I personally would want to know I had a really competitive fish. I saw somewhere a while back there was a NADA show in Austin TX and someone was really impressed by the discus there so I assume tanks were set up, fish were brought judged, water was changed ---- quarantine???? fish were taken home.....

DAUNTING! Just the thought of the organization effort and willingness of people to participate amazes me. Am also familiar with bonsai trees and local, regional or national shows and the idea of fish Discus, Koi etc has always amazed me so my hats off to those who organize and participate.....

I see and have a dim understanding how the various classes would modify the judging form. Admittedly I initially just focused on the form itself.

That said am still amazed at no published standard with various differences for strains.

[John_Nicholson]

While we are still discussing the speaker lineup I may be giving a talk on the judging standards at NADA 2016. Hope to see you there.

-john

[oliverk]

Where and when? Will it be transmitted live on the internet with call in or mail/text in questions allowed? Recorded etc?

Travel can be tough for me.

Oh by the way I didn't notice a section in the judging form for "High Body" or "Bull Dog" discus. How is that handled - judged separately as a separate type and ideal body size or do they wind up scoring poorly under NADA guidelines even though they may be highly representative of the shape that the breeder was wanting to achieve?

Is by the way NADA in touch with some of the other similar organizations world wide and coordinating judging standards? I hear of one such organization in the UK and a couple in Asia. Is there one in continental Europe/Germany - isn't the home of Stendenker (sp) Discus there?

Is NADA in touch with the major breeders and including their thoughts of what they are breeding for/the ideal discus in the judging standards?

[John_Nicholson]

June 2016 Chicago. We do not normally braodcast our speakers. You pretty much have to be there to enjoy it. Our standard is that discus should be round. Any body shape that differers from that is marked down in the shape catagory. The worse its shape the higher the deduction...LOL. The world of discus is a small one and almost every organization knows what the others are doing.

-john