Help, I need advice

[DawnD]

First off, I completely did everything backwards. I didn't do my research on quarantining fish before adding them to our established tank.

We received a 75 gallon bow front tank from a family member that already had fish (it originally house 8 tetras, a 15" sailfin pleco, 2 loach (I'm not sure that kind they both were, 2 swordtails). He wanted to give my son his fish tank. Most of the fish we traded in because we wanted discus, angels and clown loach. I know, I'm a jerk... but I knew the pleco was too large and the others I wasn't a fan of.

The tank was doing really well for over a month with one discus, two clown loach, one ghost shrimp and three angels. My LFS told me that discus like to be in groups and that I needed to purchase more. We now have a total of 5. Since introducing the 3 new ones 5 days ago, my original discus has turned dark. One of the other ones is doing the same thing and now has something on his side. I'm attaching photos. Any advice would be helpful.

We aren't new to aquariums, but discus fish are a new breed for us. The past two days, I have done 35% water changes, because I noticed the nitrate was high. I normally do water changes at least once a week or more depending on the levels. Everything else is in normals levels. I have elevated the PH now because I read that it's supposed to help. We've also kept the light off for the majority of the day. I had no idea that we should have had a quarantine tank (my husband's not going to be too happy about having to purchase another tank). I bought the Seachem Paraguard. If I put a bubbler in a 5 or 10 gallon bucket, can I do a dip on them and then add them back to the tank? I read that you can't use some of these medications with an invertebrate (our ghost shrimp) and plants. Is that true?

A little about the tank:

Temp at 82 degrees
5 discus (4 of them are 4 inches, one 3 inch)
2 large vail angels
2 small clown loach (there's one more albino loach, I'm not sure what he's called)
1 ghost shrimp
Gravel bottom
1 Hydor Koralia circulation pump
BioWheel Emperor 400
Eheim Jager 150W 60 Hz heater
I've added a bubbler for now to help with oxygen since they started showing signs of illness

I know we have a lot of windows in the home that can mess with a tank, but there's not a place in our home that doesn't have lots of natural light with lots of windows. That's why I keep track daily of the levels in the tank. 4 days ago I did a deep gravel clean as well which I read can bring a lot of the toxins into the water. That's when I noticed the Nitrate levels increased substantially. Once that happened, I have been doing daily water changes of 35%. The problems with the discus have been going on before I did the gravel cleaning, so that wasn't the cause... but it could have made things worse.

You may notice some stuff floating in the tank. That is live brine shrimp that I fed them to get them to take some pictures. And their appetites are fine... they are eating those and blood worms without a problem.

Please don't beat me up on this, because I'm well aware after reading other threads that I made some grave mistakes here. I just need advice on what to do now. I swear I'm not a bad fish parent...

[discuspaul]

Yes, sad to confirm that you've made a mistake by not properly quarantining the fish, as you've admitted. Unfortunately your biggest mistake was getting your discus from an LFS in the first place (often a big mistake).

Having said that, the truth is that your discus are quite obviously not in good condition, appear to have been quite stressed, are poorly shaped, and even stunted.
It's very likely they were not healthy when you got them, so in fact the QT would probably have been redundant in any event. There's no adequate way to determine what their health issues are at this stage, so any random medicating at this time will not likely resolve anything - in fact may do some further harm.

The tank-mates you currently have are not considered good discus tank-mates, for a newcomer to discus (i.e. the Angels and the Clown Loach in particular. Re-home them if you can).

The best approach you can take at this point, is to step up your wcs to large daily ones (50% or more), and least for a while, and start a stringent tank cleansing routine & substrate vac to remove all wastes as they accumulate, and hope for the best. It may be possible to save some of those discus, and return them to some level of health.

Wish I could be more positive, but perhaps the lesson learned here is to do lots of discus homework first before trying discus, and if you do decide to get back into discus at some future point, you'll definitely want to get your discus from a well-known, experienced, reliable source who knows how to properly care for them, and has a reputation for supplying good quality, healthy, well-shaped fish.

All the best of luck to you.

[DawnD]

Discus Paul,

Thank you for your quick response. I will try the water changes and hope for the best. The sad part is that this LFS is supposed to be one of two good fish stores in Northern Virginia. Is there an online store that you would recommend if I end up losing these and wanting to keep discus fish?

[DawnD]

Also, can you answer two questions for me? One, is there a better filter for this type of tank? And lastly what other tank mates are good for discus?

[brewmaster15]

HI Dawn,
Once you get this under control if you are looking for a good online source the sellers here in our sponsor forum are excellent. You also may want to check out some local breeders in your area that are on the forum. We have several, Don, has been raising some really nice home bred stock.

As for your current set up, the filter is okay,personally I favor aquaclears, but that Gravel of yours is something you really need to clean well. We have a whole section on tankmates for discus on the forum, but generally people new to discus do best starting with a discus only tank, then you need to Quarantine any fish, Discus or other before adding them.
hth,
al



I'm guessing by the symptoms that your new discus probably brought in a bacteria.. Sometimes when discus from 2 sources meet this happens. Often times they will recover on their own with good care ..meaning large daily water changes in this case. If you see symptoms get worse, I would suggest a course of Furan 2 ..found at most LFS or online. Treat for 8-10 days with it.

[DawnD]

BrewMaster,

Thank you so much for the reply. I'm doing a 50% water change again tonight. Thankfully we have the Python! My back was about to give out heaving these buckets back and forth! I'll look up the thank mates. But one question, can I soak the food in the Furan2? Or do I need to purchase a tank to turn into a hospital tank to treat them?

[nc0gnet0]

Furan 2 is an external medication, do not try to feed it internally. I think you need to reconsider your substrate eventually as well.

[discuspaul]

Dawn, before you do any medicating, my suggestion is to simply do large daily water changes for several days to a week or more to determine if there is any improvement developing in the overall condition of your fish.

They are obviously in poor shape at the moment, and any medicating now may be too difficult for them to tolerate.
If and when the time comes to consider medication as a more or less last resort, you can do that in your existing tank, preferably if the other tank-mates have been removed/re-homed.

You'll know whether to do that or not, after some time has elapsed - if the fish are showing improvement, then you do nothing, and if not and some have perished, and you feel it's worth the risk of trying to save any remaining ones by medicating, then do so.

[brewmaster15]

Dawn, before you do any medicating, my suggestion is to simply do large daily water changes for several days to a week or more to determine if there is any improvement developing in the overall condition of your fish.

They are obviously in poor shape at the moment, and any medicating now may be too difficult for them to tolerate.
If and when the time comes to consider medication as a more or less last resort, you can do that in your existing tank, preferably if the other tank-mates have been removed/re-homed.

You'll know whether to do that or not, after some time has elapsed - if the fish are showing improvement, then you do nothing, and if not and some have perished, and you feel it's worth the risk of trying to save any remaining ones by medicating, then do so.

Definitely, my advice too...the furan 2 is suggested if they get worse after trying to give them lots of water changes.Its very possible their immune systems will fight this off on their own.

If they start to look worse,more fish become affected ,then I would consider medicating with a broad spectrum antibiotic like Furan2....no need to remove the fish...the whole tank would need to be treated..

I would not rush into medicating them though.

Hth,
al

[DawnD]

Thanks! I've done several 50% water changes since then. We ended up losing one discus... that was fun to explain to my two year-old since he hasn't yet experienced death. :( Most of the discus are looking a LOT better, except for "Baby". That's my son's favorite discus. Her eyes are no longer cloudy, but her tail fin isn't looking so good and neither is her skin. I have left the light off for 23 hours each day. Only 1 hour on. I skipped today for the water change, because I didn't want to cause more stress than needed. Tomorrow will be another 50% water change. The nitrate is still higher than I would like. It's bright red when I test it. From the testing kit, it seems as if it should be more of an orange color. All of the other levels are good.

What kind of substrate should I replace the gravel with? And what about getting more plants? I read that they help with Nitrate problems. I need to re-home the other fish, but after my experience with the LFS... I don't want them going there. Especially considering the amount of money I spent there and what we've had to go through with this. I am going to try and place them myself instead or find a better fish store that will take them.

Finally, thank you all so very much for the help and advice! Once the tank is under control... I can breathe a sigh of relief.

[nc0gnet0]

Water changes won't cause them stress-skipping the will. Are you on well water? What is the nitrate reading of the water you are using when you do the water change (the fresh water, not the tank water). As for substrate bare bottom is best, followed by a very fine sand.