Constipation question

[krislewis3]

I have a discus that is definitely constipated....I want to use Epsomn salts to treat him. Would you guys advise me to treat him also need in my hospital tank (it is not set up right now) or, is it ok to treat the display tank, which houses 4 other fish?? Kris

[brewmaster15]

You can use the epsom salt in the main tank... it won't hurt the others... ..use 1 tablespoon per 10 gals water.

hth,
al

[Kyla]

you could also pull him into a 5gal bucket and do a 30min dip in stronger epsom solution:

http://youtu.be/XlIEzE17rrM

[DISCUS STU]

If a hospital tank were available I would treat there and also possibly with Kanamycin Sulfate as there may also be an internal infection related to the constipation. Sometimes both are a good idea. Blue Diamonds seem more prone to this than other strains.

[Kyla]

the vid says 5 tablespoons per 5gal bucket, but i might go with 4 for the discus, as someone on another group had good success with just 4 the other day. their discus was so constipated and bloated that it couldnt swim upright. 2 baths and 24 hours fasting to recover in QT and it was back in the tank right as rain.

[krislewis3]

If a hospital tank were available I would treat there and also possibly with Kanamycin Sulfate as there may also be an internal infection related to the constipation. Sometimes both are a good idea. Blue Diamonds seem more prone to this than other strains.

Wow....you pegged it. It's my blue diamond that constipated!! I'm hoping that he will feel better soon! Kris

[krislewis3]

thank you guys for the good information!! Kris

[rickztahone]

Is your tank planted by any chance?

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=rickztahone;1154786]Is your tank planted by any chance?[/QUOTE


No....no plants! I have a thin layer of sand, and a couple of artificial vines........
The Epsom salt did the trick!! Kris

[krislewis3]

What dosage do you recommend on the kanamycin, when used in conjunction with the Epsom salt?? Also, Is it ok to redose the Epsom salt after 4 hours, when I'm NOT replacing water during a WC?? Kris



If a hospital tank were available I would treat there and also possibly with Kanamycin Sulfate as there may also be an internal infection related to the constipation. Sometimes both are a good idea. Blue Diamonds seem more prone to this than other strains.

[nc0gnet0]

What dosage on the kanamycin in conjunction with the Epsom salt??

None. If kanamycin was needed it would be administered after the epsoms, not in conjunction with it. Correct dosage would be 1-2 tablespoons per ten gallons. but more won't hurt, just don't think that it is necessary. After 24-48 hours if the fish is still bloated and the epsoms salt had not fixed the problem, them you would suspect a bacterial infection and move on to Kanamycin, after you did a large water change and removed the majority of the epsoms. Blue Diamonds are very prone to bloating, to the point it might even be genetic. Epsoms usually takes care of the problem. Don't use medications if there is no need to do so.


-Rick

[krislewis3]

Oh....I misunderstood your first post...and I now have kanamycin, and Epsom salt together in the hospital tank....HELP!!!

[nc0gnet0]

Wasn't my first post :) NO worries leave it be, just a waste of medication, and probably not called for. Epsoms should only be administered for a maximum of 48 hours, and I seldom go over 24.

[krislewis3]

Oh well....I panicked, and did a massage WC, to remove the kanamycin. And yes...what a waste!! Anyway, I'm going to redose the Epsom salt. Rick, how exactly should I dose with the Epsom salt...for how long, at what dose....and if I don't get results, when do you recommend that I begin the kanamycin? I appreciate your advise!!!!kris

[Kyla]

just a question about not doing epsom and kanamycin at the same time - is this because the epsom acts as a diuretic, pulling fluids from the fish's body and that action would impede any effect the kanamycin would have because then the kana isnt being absorbed by the fish? thus it would be a "waste" ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Just a guess but think Rick was saying no need to dose with kanamycin until you know the epsom salts have not worked over a 24 to 48 hour period. So if the fish is still bloated after the epsom salt treatment is complete then assume a bacterial infection and proceed with kanamycin.

[Kyla]

thanks pat!

[cellingson]

what about an enema?:)

[krislewis3]

This is day 2 with Epsom salt, and I'm seeing NO improvement! My plan is to start kanamycin therapy! The directions give the dose amount, however the instructions after that are confusing!! Can any of you guys tell me how often to dose the kanamycin? Keep in mind that Im having to do large daily WCs, since my 10 gallon hospital tank is not cycled! Kris

[krislewis3]

I have never been clear on just how much to feed, and Im concerned that im overfeeding. If my feeding scedule is 3X per day, how many freeze dried black worm cubes should i feed my 6 adult sized discus at 1 feeding? Kris

[rickztahone]

I have never been clear on just how much to feed, and Im concerned that im overfeeding. If my feeding scedule is 3X per day, how many freeze dried black worm cubes should i feed my 6 adult sized discus at 1 feeding? Kris

observe your discus as they eat. If they finish all of their food right at the 15min mark, then you are feeding a good amount. If they have a lot left over, you are feeding too much. If they are eating it all a lot sooner than the 15min mark, then you need to feed more. With this being said, discus that are prone to getting bloated will typically get bloated sooner or later.

[krislewis3]

Sooooooo, the fish is still bloated after 48 hours and 2 Epsom salt treatments. He has not moved his bowels at all, and has stopped eating since I moved him to my 10 gallon hospital tank. Since the Epsom salt isn't helping, i began dosing him with kanamycin, according to the instructions . I'm not clear on my next move with the kanamycin. The instructions say to repeat every 2 days, to a max of 3 doses. It doesn't mention WCs, sooooooo can you guys fill me in on that? (If I do a WC, do I need to increase the dose?). Kris

[krislewis3]

Thank you........


observe your discus as they eat. If they finish all of their food right at the 15min mark, then you are feeding a good amount. If they have a lot left over, you are feeding too much. If they are eating it all a lot sooner than the 15min mark, then you need to feed more. With this being said, discus that are prone to getting bloated will typically get bloated sooner or later.

[krislewis3]

Update.....this fish is now expelling what appears to be intestinal lining, after 48 hours of Epsom salt, and 24 hours of kanamycin. Should I continue with the kanamycin?? Kris

[rickztahone]

Update.....this fish is now expelling what appears to be intestinal lining, after 48 hours of Epsom salt, and 24 hours of kanamycin. Should I continue with the kanamycin?? Kris

at this point, yes. Continue with the treatment.

[gimaal]

Do you reconstitute (soak) freeze dried foods before feeding? Years ago this was recommended to me and I've always done so and never had an issue with constipation, though freeze-dried food is a minority of the diet for my fish. Soaking is often recommended on the packaging of several freeze-dried brands.

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=gimaal;1156013]Do you reconstitute (soak) freeze dried foods before feeding? Years ago this was recommended to me and I've always done so and never had an issue with constipation, though freeze-dried food is a minority of the diet for my fish. Soaking is often recommended on the packaging of several freeze-dried brands.[/QUOTEi

I soak it for 10 seconds, until it's mushy.......should I be soaking them longer???

[krislewis3]

This morning the fish in question, still hasn't expelled any feces! I plan to do a 90% WC, and start the second dose of kanamycin. The instructions say not to exceed 3 doses, over 6 days. If I still don't get results after the 3rd dose, what would you suggest??? Kris

[gimaal]

I soak all freeze-dried foods for 5-10 minutes. I also soak all pelleted food until it is soft and it expands. Are you feeding freeze-dried exclusively? If so, I'd suggest a more varied diet.

[krislewis3]

I soak all freeze-dried foods for 5-10 minutes. I also soak all pelleted food until it is soft and it expands. Are you feeding freeze-dried exclusively? If so, I'd suggest a more varied diet.


On a daily basis, I feed freeze dried black worms, frozen beef hart, beef hart flake, and veggi/garlic flake. On occasion, I trade out the frozen beef hart, for tetra bits, or freeze dried brine shrimp. I'm probable over feeding them. Although they always finish what I give them, it's not always in a 15 min. period. Since your suggestion, I have cut back...and have begun to soak the food as you suggest!
As far as my bloated fish...if after 3 doses of kanamycin, he is still bloated...what would you suggest??? Kris

[Second Hand Pat]

Update.....this fish is now expelling what appears to be intestinal lining, after 48 hours of Epsom salt, and 24 hours of kanamycin. Should I continue with the kanamycin?? Kris

Based on this quote which was yesterday you should be on your second dose of kanamycin today if you are following the instructions?

[rickztahone]

I think worms are fine to soak but when it comes to pellets and flakes and such I don't believe soaking for an extended perior of time is necessary or even a good practice because a lot of this food looses its nutritional factor when being soaked. Just food for thought.

[krislewis3]

Based on this quote which was yesterday you should be on your second dose of kanamycin today if you are following the instructions?

Yes pat, as of today (Thursday) it is day 2 of the second kanamycin dose. He will get the 3rd and final kanamycin dose tomorrow (Friday). So far, he is still bloated! Kris

[nc0gnet0]

Kanamycin should be administered for 10 days, I prefer a water change and redoes each day. Where did you get your kanamycin? It's not the
Seachem kanaplex by chance is it?

[krislewis3]

Kanamycin should be administered for 10 days, I prefer a water change and redoes each day. Where did you get your kanamycin? It's not the
Seachem kanaplex by chance is it?

Yes, it is Seachem Kanaplex! Is there a problem with it? Is it risky to disregard the instructions? Kris

[DISCUS STU]

The Seachem brand is considered about 50% too weak in concentration. When I was using it I doubled their recommended dose. This is why it's good to do this in a smaller tank and under more controlled circumstances. I treat in a 10 gal. hospital tank with a Fluval 40 HOB outside power filter. Were you feeding a lot of flake food prior to the constipation issue?

Angels Plus sells a good Kanamycin Sulfate flake if the fish is still eating. You can also add the Kanamycin to frozen bh if you have it.

[krislewis3]

MHe is NOT eating at all, since I put him in a 10 gl. Hospital tank. Should I double the dose? Should I add furan 2 to the kanamycin?

[DISCUS STU]

I wouldn't add anything else at this point. I would double the Seachem dose and treat every other day as indicated in their instructions and do 50% water changes when adding the new doses.

I had a Blue Diamond once that pigged out on flake food and got this problem very badly. It blew up like a balloon. Internal infections often accompany severe constipation issues. I wish I knew then what I know now re treating for internal infections re this. It didn't end up well. Hopefully now it would.

[rickztahone]

Kanamycin should be administered for 10 days, I prefer a water change and redoes each day. Where did you get your kanamycin? It's not the
Seachem kanaplex by chance is it?


I wouldn't add anything else at this point. I would double the Seachem dose and treat every other day as indicated in their instructions and do 50% water changes when adding the new doses.

I had a Blue Diamond once that pigged out on flake food and got this problem very badly. It blew up like a balloon. Internal infections often accompany severe constipation issues. I wish I knew then what I know now re treating for internal infections re this. It didn't end up well. Hopefully now it would.

Follow this advice. Double dose and WC's for the full 10 days.

[krislewis3]

Thank you for the advice...I don't want to lose this fish!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thank you for the advice...I don't want to lose this fish!

Kris, stay on top of your WCs with daily dosing of Kanamycin as it will kill your filter.
Pat

[krislewis3]

My beautiful fish is dying.....he is having trouble holding himself up.....�� I did a large WC, in the hopes that it might revive him.....we shall see!!

[rickztahone]

My beautiful fish is dying.....he is having trouble holding himself up.....�� I did a large WC, in the hopes that it might revive him.....we shall see!!

Do you have enough air in the tank?

[DISCUS STU]

Sorry to hear about this. It's very hard to do the best you can and have it go this way.

[krislewis3]

Strangely enough, the fish has revived, but still passing white stringy feces, but still bloated. I dosed him with the his 4th dose of kanamycin. since he has not improved from the Epsom salt, and so far, no improvement from the kanamycin, I'm wondering if something else is going on.....any thoughts?? Kris

[DISCUS STU]

Can you send a picture(s)?

[krislewis3]

I just tested the water in my hospital tank...and it tested high for ammonia!!! I've been changing the water every day, because it is not cycled! (My tap water also tests high) . Should I be concerned?? Should I put him back in the main tank?

[DISCUS STU]

I wonder if Ammo Chips would help.

[krislewis3]

When I saw the high ammonia lever in the hospital tank, in a panic, I put him back in the main tank. I must say that he is happily swimming around, now that he's home. He is still passing a gel like substance that I had assume is intestinal lining, but now I'm wondering if something else is going on. Perhaps he never was constipated! Although he does look bloated...it's not obvious..you really have to look hard to notice it. I took a sample of this gel like feces, and plan to look at it under a microscope at work tomorrow!What else could this be??? I would be grateful for any advise???

[PP_GBR]

K

Can u take some pic?

[krislewis3]

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/krislewis31/1f46ea611475dcdc5a36a3b31906e441_zpseclvux39.jpght tp://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/krislewis31/f016f46e6fa7e0f4f6471db57594058b_zpsfb1gbi1m.jpg
-The top photo is from today, he is happy to be back in the main tank..but still symptomatic.
-The bottom photo is from last week, when he was in the hospital tank.....the bulg that you see, is not as pronounced as it looks in the photo...

[krislewis3]

Ok guys...here is a photo of the latest bowel movement from the fish....it's more yellow then it was....any thoughts as to a diagnosis?? Kris




http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/krislewis31/e96825cadbf5c244402f156068a0b033_zpssda7acp1.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

one thread please

[krislewis3]

Sorry....

[DISCUS STU]

What do you feed your fish? I don't think it's intestinal lining but maybe fat that builds up and takes the shape of the intestines.

Have you tried posting in the disease section. It may be more of Capillaria/Hexamita problem but it would be good to get other opinions. Possibly treatment with Metronidazole at higher temp.

[Second Hand Pat]

What do you feed your fish? I don't think it's intestinal lining but maybe fat that builds up and takes the shape of the intestines.

Have you tried posting in the disease section. It may be more of Capillaria/Hexamita problem but it would be good to get other opinions. Possibly treatment with Metronidazole at higher temp.

Here is Kris's disease thread Stu http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?119750-Help&p=1156777.
Pat

[krislewis3]

Yes, that what I'm wondering....I feed a varity of foods, but he hasn't been eating for the past 10 days. I looked at his feces under a microscope, and did not see any eggs, which would rule out capillaria, leaving me with Hex as the next possable diagnosis. but...I'm not sure about subjecting him to so many meds..he still has a distended abdomen, still won't eat, feces the same. I'm thinking that I should redose him with antibiotics for a full 10 days, as recommended here on SD...but if that's not successful, at what point should I consider Hex, and when should I treat him for Hex? Kris




What do you feed your fish? I don't think it's intestinal lining but maybe fat that builds up and takes the shape of the intestines.

Have you tried posting in the disease section. It may be more of Capillaria/Hexamita problem but it would be good to get other opinions. Possibly treatment with Metronidazole at higher temp.

[rickztahone]

Yes, that what I'm wondering.....but...I'm not sure about subjecting him to so many meds..he still has a distended abdomen, still won't eat, feces the same. I'm thinking that I should redose him with antibiotics for a full 10 days, as recommended here on SD...but if that's not successful, at what point should I consider Hex, and when should I treat him for Hex? Kris

Deal with that bridge when you get there. Continue the treament and see how the discus responds.

[cellingson]

any updates?

[krislewis3]

any updates?


Yes....the fish died, and I autopsied him. The swelling in his body, was an enlarged liver! I'm guessing that it was a tumor on the liver. His intestine and stomach were normal looking, which tells me that he was not constipated, nor did he have a bacterial infection, which would explain why he didn't respond to the medications that I gave him. Of course this is all guess work on my part, since I'm not a vet, or an expert.............thanks for your interest, Kris

[cellingson]

Yes....the fish died, and I autopsied him. The swelling in his body, was an enlarged liver! I'm guessing that it was a tumor on the liver. His intestine and stomach were normal looking, which tells me that he was not constipated, nor did he have a bacterial infection, which would explain why he didn't respond to the medications that I gave him. Of course this is all guess work on my part, since I'm not a vet, or an expert.............thanks for your interest, Kris
Sorry to hear