New-ish pair laid eggs, but are slowly dissappearing

[Mulletpullet]

Attached is a photo marking the progression of these eggs.

Eggs were laid in evening of Day 1. (perhaps 8pm ish)
Far left photo is Day 2 Morning. (8 AM)
Middle photo is Day 2 Evening. (8 pm)
Far right is Day 3 (Noon) Today.

Water changes are keeping the Nitrites, Nitrates, and Ammonia levels 0.
Been switching to RO-water & RO right. Previously had been using tap water/RO mix.

Hardness I had been working on lowering. At time of the eggs being laid, it was at 125 ppm. I have not changed the hardness to softer. Although before the next spawn I had been planning to lower it to around 70-90ish if that sounds right to you professionals.

PH has been pretty stable at 6.4.

Question. Do you think the eggs turning white/being eaten is due to still being too hard, or do you think they just haven't been fertilized by (I assume) the male? As in, the new parents are just rookies taking time to get it right...

During the spawning, I could see the male following the female as she laid eggs, moving in an upward motion up the pot as if he was fertilizing them. And they both seem to be taking turns of cleaning the spot the eggs were on/fanning eggs with their fins. So they seem like devoted parents. The eggs just seem to be slowly turning white and disappearing.

Thoughts?

P.S. I should add that this is only their 2nd spawn.

[rickztahone]

It is anyones guess really unless you have seen the discus' tubes to confirm. A pair a femailes will typically have a huge clutch of eggs though and this looks like more of a single lay spread :). I'll let the breeding experts chime in here though.

[Mulletpullet]

It is anyones guess really unless you have seen the discus' tubes to confirm. A pair a femailes will typically have a huge clutch of eggs though and this looks like more of a single lay spread :). I'll let the breeding experts chime in here though.

I think I am about as certain as I can be about the discus being a male. (without actually having a hatch) I guess my question was more or less: perhaps a failure for the new parents to get things down correctly, or is my hardness still too hard?

And then there is the unknown unknowns. Things I don't know, that I don't know. :)

My avatar picture is the female. Saw the eggs coming out, so that is of no doubt.

[rickztahone]

I think I am about as certain as I can be about the discus being a male. (without actually having a hatch) I guess my question was more or less: perhaps a failure for the new parents to get things down correctly, or is my hardness still too hard?

And then there is the unknown unknowns. Things I don't know, that I don't know. :)

My avatar picture is the female. Saw the eggs coming out, so that is of no doubt.

I've never bred discus so I've never spent too much time in knowing all the paramaters needed to do it successfully, but more than likely your pair is still inexperienced. Give them time and see where it goes from there. If they are in fact a male and female, if the water isn't right, they are still getting some training on how to do it right ;)

[Mulletpullet]

Thanks for the replies. My gut is telling me they are just inexperienced. Thanks.

[nate c]

if you are sure thats a male and female I would shut down all flow on the tank next spawn,and leave the lights way way low.
also if that batch goes south"not fertilized" pull the cone do a 1/2 water change and try the low light low flow deal.
good luck :alien:

[rickztahone]

if you are sure thats a male and female I would shut down all flow on the tank next spawn,and leave the lights way way low.
also if that batch goes south"not fertilized" pull the cone do a 1/2 water change and try the low light low flow deal.
good luck :alien:

I do not advise to cut all filtration at all. Lights low probably might work, but I know many who leave the lights on all the time.

No flow means stagnant water which is a recipe for fish soup. Use a sponge filter in a breeding tank and you will be fine. Let them do their thing.

[Mulletpullet]

currently I have a sponge filter. and I have LED lighting that I cannot turn down, so I have some water sprite plants that I'm letting float, and they seem to really like the cover in the lack of light that provides.

[nc0gnet0]

http://www.discusnada.org/breeding-discus/

(shameless plug :) )

[limige]

I would say its one of two things.
either plain just young and inexperienced or theres a water issue and they are eating them as they go bad.
I would screen a batch and see how many are viable and if they hatch or go bad. that will tell you if its a water issue and or if the pair is doing its job. if they hatch then its just the young pair.

[Mulletpullet]

I like the information in that link, and it goes along with what I was thinking. I tell you what though, this is exciting. I work a day job with my cousin which is also a aquarium enthusiast, and has discus of his own, and every day we compare notes. And while that makes it a lot of fun, it also adds a little pressure too. Haha.

I will have my hardness down by the next spawn for sure, so we'll rule that variable out next.

[lksdrinker]

How do the remaining eggs look today? Assuming there are still a few eggs left you should be able to tell whether or not any were fertilized. Based on the photos you already posted it looks like some were fertilized as I only see a few white eggs. I've got a young proven pair right now who are also trying to figure out the whole process. Last spawn resulted in wigglers and then once they were free swimming the parents munched them down.

[Mulletpullet]

Well see that is what I was wondering. This morning there were about 20ish of the original 116 eggs. And of those 2 or 3 were whitish. The rest looked like they did one day one. And I figured by 8am this morning (55-60 hr mark) they should have been close to hatching, or at the very least be showing some discoloration where the little fishies are forming in the eggs. But they are still the same color as the day they were laid.

[Mulletpullet]

if you are sure thats a male and female I would shut down all flow on the tank next spawn,and leave the lights way way low.
also if that batch goes south"not fertilized" pull the cone do a 1/2 water change and try the low light low flow deal.
good luck :alien:

Maybe play some Marvin Gaye with the lights low? :D

[lksdrinker]

Well see that is what I was wondering. This morning there were about 20ish of the original 116 eggs. And of those 2 or 3 were whitish. The rest looked like they did one day one. And I figured by 8am this morning (55-60 hr mark) they should have been close to hatching, or at the very least be showing some discoloration where the little fishies are forming in the eggs. But they are still the same color as the day they were laid.

116?....very specific and probably very difficult to count! Well I'm far from an expert; but of the few spawns that my pair have had the fertile eggs never really changed at all. I was always told they should darken up a bit but that has not happened (and/or I just never noticed it). The only thing I've seen is the non-fertilized eggs turn white within 48 hours or so. I believe I saw wigglers at about the 72 hour mark or so but I believe that is temperature dependent.

[Mulletpullet]

116?....very specific and probably very difficult to count! Well I'm far from an expert; but of the few spawns that my pair have had the fertile eggs never really changed at all. I was always told they should darken up a bit but that has not happened (and/or I just never noticed it). The only thing I've seen is the non-fertilized eggs turn white within 48 hours or so. I believe I saw wigglers at about the 72 hour mark or so but I believe that is temperature dependent.

Yeah, people kept asking me how many eggs they lay at a time. So I took a photo, put it in photo shop, and put different colored dots over each egg in the photo by tens. Then all I had to do was count 10, 20, 30, etc... It sounds harder than it was, I'm a geek.

I'm glad to hear about the lack of color change in the eggs. Maybe there is hope? I'll check it out when I get home in a couple hours.

[Mulletpullet]

According to my 10 year old that is home right now, there are no eggs left. But he's not really that reliable. We'll see when I'm home.

[Mulletpullet]

Well, my son was correct. When I got home I had cheerful discus greeting me at an egg-less tank. They always seem so happy after eggs disappear. Bright colored, and eager as if they are free of all responsibility. Haha.

I finally got my hardness down below 100. (85 ppm) We'll see how things work the next spawn.

[lksdrinker]

Well, my son was correct. When I got home I had cheerful discus greeting me at an egg-less tank. They always seem so happy after eggs disappear. Bright colored, and eager as if they are free of all responsibility. Haha.

I finally got my hardness down below 100. (85 ppm) We'll see how things work the next spawn.


I wouldnt worry much. You and I seem to be in similar positions right now.....young pairs that are still trying to figure it all out. The pair I got a few weeks ago ate all the eggs from the first spawn in my tank; then the second spawn got some wigglers and once they were free swimming the parents at them. They just spawned again the other day and I'm hoping to see wigglers by about tomorrow. If your fish did it once; they'll most likely do it again!

[nate c]

I do not advise to cut all filtration at all. Lights low probably might work, but I know many who leave the lights on all the time.

No flow means stagnant water which is a recipe for fish soup. Use a sponge filter in a breeding tank and you will be fine. Let them do their thing.

i ment to say cut the flow during the spawn/fert process .after reading this perhaps he has two females.

[nate c]

I do not advise to cut all filtration at all. Lights low probably might work, but I know many who leave the lights on all the time.

No flow means stagnant water which is a recipe for fish soup. Use a sponge filter in a breeding tank and you will be fine. Let them do their thing.

i ment to say cut the flow during the spawn/fert process .after reading this perhaps he has two females.
p.s . in my old school breeding days, hard-er water just gave me smaller spawns. but I still had fertilized eggs.

[Mulletpullet]

Well today is another egg laying day. About two hours ago we had plans to go to the movies with the kids for mother's day/one of our kids birthday. The leopard was rubbing it's belly on the flowerpot. But no eggs were coming out. It was just appearing to go through the motions. I watched it for about a minute or two, but we had to hit the 1pm showtime. When we return from the movies, there are a bunch of eggs (70+), and the snakeskin (the one I have thought was the female) is in the process of laying eggs. So I now know for a certainty that the snakeskin is a female.

Now, I tried to watch the leopard, and it was going through the motions again over the other eggs, but the snake skin kept getting in the way and I can't see. Eventually it looks like I spooked them (they both darted, splashed some water, etc... The snakeskin came back and continued laying her eggs, but the leopard is on the far side of the tank having nothing to do with the whole process.

So frustrating because I keep trying to see if that leopard is a female or a male. I did take some pictures of the breeding tubes. Opinions?

87002

87003

[nc0gnet0]

the pic of the breeding tube is a female imo

btw invest in a breeding cone, the flower pot is a bit to short.

[Mulletpullet]

I agree. When I observed them today, the egg layer was doing it sideways. Made me think it was too short as well.

And the breeding tube looked female to me as well. Since they are there already I'll see how this one goes, but I think it's time to try a different pair.

[Mulletpullet]

Well, I counted 163 eggs. And guessing that the last batch was quite a few less, I am thinking that they both laid eggs.

Does anyone know the amount of eggs discus typically lay at a time?

87011

[nc0gnet0]

still a small or average batch for one female

[MGKelly]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?102739-Spawning-Females-suggestions&highlight=


These are pictures of my two females spawning.

[nate c]

150 to 300 ;)

[MadMatt]

You need to know for sure if your male is fertilizing or not. You must have visable wigglers.
Next time they spawn, make sure there done, then leave about 4 hrs after they are done window.
After this cover the eggs with a mesh. I have found most young pairs will eat there entire spawn once.they see a little fungus or a small development in the eggs. Once they start to almost become free swimmers 5 days (approx.) I take off the mesh and let them tend to them.
At the very least you will know if you have a proven pair of not.

[Mulletpullet]

I was wrong, all the fish I had were female. Took a while to see each laying their own set. I had 4 discus, and all 4 ended up being female. Haha. So, my local breeder had a male that had fertilized eggs in the past he was willing to part with, and another he suspected was male, and I bought both. I have a spawn going right now with wigglers at the moment. very excited!

[MadMatt]

I've been there many times, the females all pair and play tricks on you!...lol
Good luck. :)