Autopsy??

[krislewis3]

I just lost a discus that had a distended abdomen. I'm not sure if it was an intestinal obstruction, or bacterial infection. I would like to autopsy the fish to get a diagnosis. I'm hoping that some of you more experienced folks, can point me to some research on how to go about the dissection!! Thanks Kris

[Fish_Fin-atic]

If you can get your hands on a book called "Discus Health" by Dieter Untergasser, there's tons of information, with pictures, not only on how to perform the procedure, but also on the identification of parasites, and other health conditions that you are likely to come across.


http://www.amazon.com/Discus-Health-Selection-Treatments-Angelfish/dp/0866221700

[smsimcik]

Knowing how to dissect is one thing, knowing what you're looking at is another. What you need is an experienced veterinary pathologist to do the necropsy for you. Most disease diagnoses are made from microscopic tissue staining and examination not from gross examination.
I'm a veterinarian, but I'm no pathologist. I've dissected my own fish before but I have only limited knowledge of fish pathology so even I don't know what I'm looking at most of the time.
Here's a link the AVMA posted a few years ago with fish vets in the U.S. and U. K. www.aquavetmed.info.
Maybe you have a pathology lab near you.

[DonMD]

Knowing how to dissect is one thing, knowing what you're looking at is another. What you need is an experienced veterinary pathologist to do the necropsy for you.

There is a aquatic veterinary school at Virginia Tech. Let me know if you want their contact info, I have used them twice.

[FMA4ME]

There is a aquatic veterinary school at Virginia Tech. Let me know if you want their contact info, I have used them twice.

That sounds like a great resource!
I just purchased a microscope hoping to be able to get some use out of it myself.

[brewmaster15]

Knowing how to dissect is one thing, knowing what you're looking at is another. What you need is an experienced veterinary pathologist to do the necropsy for you. Most disease diagnoses are made from microscopic tissue staining and examination not from gross examination.
I'm a veterinarian, but I'm no pathologist. I've dissected my own fish before but I have only limited knowledge of fish pathology so even I don't know what I'm looking at most of the time.
Here's a link the AVMA posted a few years ago with fish vets in the U.S. and U. K. www.aquavetmed.info.
Maybe you have a pathology lab near you.

Excellent points Steve!

I'll add to it that doing a post mortem dissection of a fish is probably not going to give much info as to the cause of death.Labs won't accept them dead as fish decay rapidly, and parasites die or abandon dead fish.

al

[rickztahone]

Kris, I'm sorry for your loss. I know you tried everything with this discus :(

[DC Discus]

If you want to research more on fish health Sea grant has some fun videos to watch. This one covers gill biopsies and skin scrape, usually the first place I start with dead fish;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haxa-VeR0kk

Most people refer to Noga's book for fish disease's in general, which covers autopsy;

http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Disease-Diagnosis-Edward-Noga/dp/0813806976

For Discus only, the Untergasser is great.
Cheers,
DC

[krislewis3]

As an operating room nurse/surgical assistant, I have a pretty good take on human anatomy, and dissection, and also have access to the instruments needed to preform the surgery, .......so I'm hoping that i will have some luck at this venture......I appreciate the good advise, and have ordered the books which I think will defiantly help me. I'll keep you guys posted!! Wish me luck!! Kris

[rickztahone]

As an operating room nurse/surgical assistant, I have a pretty good take on human anatomy, and dissection, and also have access to the instruments needed to preform the surgery, .......so I'm hoping that i will have some luck at this venture......I appreciate the good advise, and have ordered the books which I think will defiantly help me. I'll keep you guys posted!! Wish me luck!! Kris

Good luck Kris. I honestly believe that your best bet with the autopsy was right after the discus passed. Most bacteria abandon ship quick after death. However, I still wish you luck

[krislewis3]

[QUOTE=rickztahone;1157494]Good luck Kris. I honestly believe that your best bet with the autopsy was right after the discus passed. Most bacteria abandon ship quick after death. However, I still wish you luck[/y

This may be a big waste of time, however, I feel the need to know if it is infection, feces, obstruction by a tumor, etc....and since he's in the freezer...I'm hoping I can determine something. We shall see!!!��

[krislewis3]

I made an incision, then gently pressed on the bulge from the outside, and this is what came out..leaving the abdomen flat. It could be tumor, which would explain why he didn't respond at all to antibiotics. I didn't see any pus. Of course, this isn't a diagnosis, but it gives me reason to pause...and go hummmmm!!!




http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/krislewis31/6e85f413a383a30ae084029cd94ee1fe_zpsufqyfubv.jpg

[rickztahone]

Hey Kris, I can't say I have ever delved in this part of the hobby and I wouldn't be able to tell you anything with regards to this part you found. However, I will bump this thread up for you to see if anyone may have an answer for you.

[LizStreithorst]

The only real thing you need to be concerned about in a bloated fish that dies is that the problem is Cryptobia which is a contagious parasite. Everything else should be confined to the affected fish.

[krislewis3]

When my fish got sick, stopped eating, and became bloated, I treated it for constipation/bacterial infection. I assumed that the swelling in the body came from the gastrointestinal organs. What was interesting to me about the mass that I dissected, is that it wasn't inside of the intestine or stomach, which means that it did NOT come from anything that the fish overate, or infection from parasite in these organs. It was very clearly outside of these organs...which causes me to wonder if it's a tumor, or perhaps I'm not identifying it accurately, and it's just a normal liver. (although I wouldn't expect the liver to be this large) Any thoughts? Kris

[Second Hand Pat]

Kris, when you opened the fish did any fluid come out? and if it did. What color was it?
Pat

[smsimcik]

When my fish got sick, stopped eating, and became bloated, I treated it for constipation/bacterial infection. I assumed that the swelling in the body came from the gastrointestinal organs. What was interesting to me about the mass that I dissected, is that it wasn't inside of the intestine or stomach, which means that it did NOT come from anything that the fish overate, or infection from parasite in these organs. It was very clearly outside of these organs...which causes me to wonder if it's a tumor, or perhaps I'm not identifying it accurately, and it's just a normal liver. (although I wouldn't expect the liver to be this large) Any thoughts? Kris

It looks like liver that has been frozen and then thawed. Freezing and thawing causes swelling and rupture of cells. Liver cells are particularly delicate and easily damaged by freezing. You're probably seeing typical post mortem changes. Next time you want to necropsy a fish, don't freeze it. Put it in the refrigerator or formalin.

There's a pretty good chance that liver was perfectly normal when the fish died and had nothing to do with the bloating.

[krislewis3]

There was a small amount (2 drops) of a clear fluid, but no pus. The mass was not in the gastrointestinal area, but in the area of the liver..which is why I'm wondering if it is NORMAL, or ENLARGED liver! Kris

[krislewis3]

No, although I at first put it in the freezer, I removed it before it froze, and put it in refrigerator. I did not use formalin though. I was surprised at how easy it was to identify the organs. It was like looking at a text book!!



It looks like liver that has been frozen and then thawed. Freezing and thawing causes swelling and rupture of cells. Liver cells are particularly delicate and easily damaged by freezing. You're probably seeing typical post mortem changes. Next time you want to necropsy a fish, don't freeze it. Put it in the refrigerator or formalin.

There's a pretty good chance that liver was perfectly normal when the fish died and had nothing to do with the bloating.

[krislewis3]

Kris, when you opened the fish did any fluid come out? and if it did. What color was it?
Pat

Pat, I saw perhaps 2 drops of fluid that was clear in appearance.

[Second Hand Pat]

I would think that's normal Kris. If you had seen a yellow cast to the fluid I would've suspected a bacterial infection.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Kris,
How long after the fish died did you perform the autopsy?

al

[krislewis3]

The fish was in the refrigerator for 4 days prior to autopsy.



Kris,
How long after the fish died did you perform the autopsy?

al

[krislewis3]

Yes, I agree. I was trying to determine if the problem was coming from constipation and/or bacterial infection in the gastrointestinal organs, and although I don't have a diagnosis, I think I proved that the bulge in the fish was from the liver, which is probably why he didn't respond to the meds I tried. Kris


I would think that's normal Kris. If you had seen a yellow cast to the fluid I would've suspected a bacterial infection.
Pat